Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Moyashi]

sorry dont mean to be rude to you personally, but this is balance noob brain rot. why do you think you are supposed to be able switch in and beat, defensively, a 130 SpA choice specs breaker that is beating you at predictions??? the point is that it puts holes in do-nothing fat teams.

here are plenty of things to check kyurem for you

You can also run stall too if you want to just wall it. If you really want to goof kyurem, then use . thing is heinous with support. there's also, wait for it...stealth rock! wow!

Aside from it not needing o predict much unless you're facing an air balloon steel like Tinkaton or Tinkaton or a AV Iron Crown, it does a lot more than just put holes into "do nothing fat teams" (which btw I hate as a copout argument whenever this comes up, it's such a handwavy response). It slams lots of balance structures lacking those steels or Glowking and especially, incredibly common Lu or Gliscor structures.

Your checks are basically all offensive checks. Cinderace doesn't even KO without significant chip (or mediocre HJK sets), Darkrai needs FB to threaten it or specs itself (have fun running that in a Lu dominated metagame). Enamorus is limited to offensive teams and also has been pretty irrelevant for a while now. Iron Crown is a good check but it's taken a sizable hit in splashability and viability due to Ting-Lu the metagame, and Iron Moth doesn't threaten it without Dazzling Gleam (which is mainly on webs) and Moth also just blows in this metagame. Treads is really seen on offensive teams (mainly stuff like sun and rain) and is usually a lead. Weavile is a big LMAO and can't switch in. And you did not seriously put Zapdos as a check to Kyurem.

Pult, Val, Wake and Wellspring are all offensive checks but also cannot switch in and neither can Zama more than once. And you aren't using Zama as a switch in when you need it for other stuff on Kyurem's team. BTW the stealth rocks argument is goofy because good Kyurem teams (especially Specs) are going to be prepared for such.

Your opening line is needlessly rude and you don't make a compelling counterargument.

the point is you have gameplay vs kyurem if you use something faster either by hitting it and punishing its entries or status.

plus, if you sac a mon everytime chilly reception happens, then I'd argue gking is the issue, not whatever comes in for free afterward!

This is a very vague statement that doesn't really tackle the core issue behind the mon in question. How are you going to get your faster threat in vs Kyurem and hit it? It's not exactly staying in vs something if it doesn't want to. It's not a "one chance per game" pokemon and it has a team behind it to support it and fall back on. And similarly, punishing it with status requires sharp prediction which as has been said in the past for many things, goes both ways and... what pokemon that Kyurem uses as entry points is even using status? Outside Gliscor that is.

I never like including Tera in calcs like these, especially for wall breakers. For sweepers it's a little more reasonable as they can quickly become a 6-0.

Tera is worth more than a single mon in nearly every matchup. It is frequently worth several mons. We all know Tera is an insanely powerful mechanic and it's disingenuous to toss it into calcs so lightly.

Would you be complaining that your opponent's Dynamax wall breaker broke your wall? No, that's what the mechanic does. Same with Tera.

Stall is the archetype that tries to wall all the wall breakers.

Balance cannot, and should not, be able to do this. Balance has to use game momentum as some of its answers rather than just always having the right switch in.

The first comment is strange, because as with anything you judge it with the full context of the tier and all its elements, and that's including Tera in this case. Why would you not calc with Tera factored for situations when those can happen too? Especially when sudden Teras can turn potential checks from barely hanging on into being KOd on the spot, and then suddenly you're really on the backfoot and will struggle to contain that breaker. Also the bit about DMax is really weird considering... DMax was in fact banned.

Balance doesn't have to wall everything, but it should be sturdy enough to give those players a chance to reposition when responding defensively and take some momentum back or respond (see a past gen example like using a Toxapex to poison ZardY, giving the rest of its team room to dance around it and ultimately outlast it with good playing). Stuff like Kyurem is very punishing with a lack of many safe defensive answers, and the few that do exist are food for DD sets. Which BTW even got to showcase some nasty, albiet somewhat fishy, Sub+DD+Protect variants a few times in SPL.

I feel pretty strongly on this mon still being a pest and not something that's longterm good for the tier. Ideas of it keeping Gliscor in line or something similar are moot since Gliscor is broken regardless.

 

[Pedro Alphonse]

Aside from it not needing o predict much unless you're facing an air balloon steel like Tinkaton or Tinkaton or a AV Iron Crown, it does a lot more than just put holes into "do nothing fat teams" (which btw I hate as a copout argument whenever this comes up, it's such a handwavy response). It slams lots of balance structures lacking those steels or Glowking and especially, incredibly common Lu or Gliscor structures.

Your checks are basically all offensive checks. Cinderace doesn't even KO without significant chip (or mediocre HJK sets), Darkrai needs FB to threaten it or specs itself (have fun running that in a Lu dominated metagame). Enamorus is limited to offensive teams and also has been pretty irrelevant for a while now. Iron Crown is a good check but it's taken a sizable hit in splashability and viability due to Ting-Lu the metagame, and Iron Moth doesn't threaten it without Dazzling Gleam (which is mainly on webs) and Moth also just blows in this metagame. Treads is really seen on offensive teams (mainly stuff like sun and rain) and is usually a lead. Weavile is a big LMAO and can't switch in. And you did not seriously put Zapdos as a check to Kyurem.

Pult, Val, Wake and Wellspring are all offensive checks but also cannot switch in and neither can Zama more than once. And you aren't using Zama as a switch in when you need it for other stuff on Kyurem's team. BTW the stealth rocks argument is goofy because good Kyurem teams (especially Specs) are going to be prepared for such.

Your opening line is needlessly rude and you don't make a compelling counterargument.



This is a very vague statement that doesn't really tackle the core issue behind the mon in question. How are you going to get your faster threat in vs Kyurem and hit it? It's not exactly staying in vs something if it doesn't want to. It's not a "one chance per game" pokemon and it has a team behind it to support it and fall back on. And similarly, punishing it with status requires sharp prediction which as has been said in the past for many things, goes both ways and... what pokemon that Kyurem uses as entry points is even using status? Outside Gliscor that is.




The first comment is strange, because as with anything you judge it with the full context of the tier and all its elements, and that's including Tera in this case. Why would you not calc with Tera factored for situations when those can happen too? Especially when sudden Teras can turn potential checks from barely hanging on into being KOd on the spot, and then suddenly you're really on the backfoot and will struggle to contain that breaker. Also the bit about DMax is really weird considering... DMax was in fact banned.

Balance doesn't have to wall everything, but it should be sturdy enough to give those players a chance to reposition when responding defensively and take some momentum back or respond (see a past gen example like using a Toxapex to poison ZardY, giving the rest of its team room to dance around it and ultimately outlast it with good playing). Stuff like Kyurem is very punishing with a lack of many safe defensive answers, and the few that do exist are food for DD sets. Which BTW even got to showcase some nasty, albiet somewhat fishy, Sub+DD+Protect variants a few times in SPL.

I feel pretty strongly on this mon still being a pest and not something that's longterm good for the tier. Ideas of it keeping Gliscor in line or something similar are moot since Gliscor is broken regardless.

I don't believe in the sanctity of an individual archetype. if balance sucks vs kyurem, then balance sucks vs kyurem. That's not good or bad to me; it's just how the generation is. It's not like Kyurem gets in every single game no matter what it's against and wins. I listed a dozen pokemon you can use to position in front of kyurem to mitgate its effectiveness. If you don't want to use them because you don't think they "count" as balance, then OK, but let's not pretend there aren't options in OU. If your team loses to chilly into kyurem, then it's also losing to chilly into ursaluna, conkledurr, enamorus, future sight, etc. Just build a team that's less passive.

thx for the message. im not going to debate further. peace

 

[Rekka's Backend]

but let's not pretend there aren't options in OU.

The issue isn't that there are no 'issues' and Kyu is some unstoppable monster that auto wins games. It's that the answers to it are also readily answers to many other compounding issues; alongside set variety, alongside tera variety, alongside checks needing to check other checks and them requiring wildly different answers. A lot of the mons that have been banned this gen are not auto wins, and do require a team to properly support them; the issue is that they're deeply problematic for the health of the meta game in spite of these, not because they are unstoppable.

Checking, for example, whether Valiant is Moonblast or CC is wildly different as the answers to valiant are usually sturdy enough to at least allow you opportunity to scout more easily. Kyu is often a game of "Is this a set up turn is this a specs nuke" in one go. That's before outside factors like freeze, usual tera cheesing, etc. These are elements that a lot of problematic sweepers in the past have, and Kyu is not an auto win, but Kyu is just one symptom of the greater whole that makes the meta game difficult and/or frustrating; and that is its something that requires wildly different answers depending on its girth of sets. Even right predictions/scouting can result in effectively losing a mon if you just happen to not be prepared for the right Tera combo it has and/or freeze cheese.

I've used Kyu myself here, and while yes it is rock weak (what isn't? half the types in the game are) it is by nowhere near an immediate answer. If you're using kyu, its either boots (trash) or has proper team support to allow it to do what it does. it's like saying "Gouging fire is just rock weak, simply have your defensive answers ready." Like. Okay? Thanks? This is basic shit, and not at all a compliant answer for what the issue around the mon is. Especially when it will be having a team to facilitate its existence.

Being frozen, allowing it a DD, guessing the tera wrong; these are all very real and consistent things that can occur in match to match. It's not an auto win, its not a monster that kills immediately (unless you get frozen lol) but its simply a compounding problem that is more trouble than it's worth. Especially when Using your Kyu answers can make you weaker to the rest of Kyu's team; This was the issue around Palafin. Lose your defenses to Palafin, then you are softened up for the rest of its team.

 

[UltraSword]

sorry dont mean to be rude to you personally, but this is balance noob brain rot. why do you think you are supposed to be able switch in and beat, defensively, a 130 SpA choice specs breaker that is beating you at predictions??? the point is that it puts holes in do-nothing fat teams.

here are plenty of things to check kyurem for you
View attachment 730463

You can also run stall too if you want to just wall it. If you really want to goof kyurem, then use . thing is heinous with support. there's also, wait for it...stealth rock! wow!

I do think the DD sets are cheap, but that's because of tera, and for some reason that didn't get banned, so that goes for everything with setup in OU.

I do think most of these mons can beat Kyurem at least 50 percent of the time but did you really put Zapdos and Ogerpon W on that list? Freeze dry beats Oger and Zapdos is slower and I am pretty sure dies to unboosted icicle spear (I don't have calcs so I can't back this up admittedly).

 

[Moyashi]

I don't believe in the sanctity of an individual archetype. if balance sucks vs kyurem, then balance sucks vs kyurem. That's not good or bad to me; it's just how the generation is. It's not like Kyurem gets in every single game no matter what it's against and wins. I listed a dozen pokemon you can use to position in front of kyurem to mitgate its effectiveness. If you don't want to use them because you don't think they "count" as balance, then OK, but let's not pretend there aren't options in OU. If your team loses to chilly into kyurem, then it's also losing to chilly into ursaluna, conkledurr, enamorus, future sight, etc. Just build a team that's less passive.

"That's just how the generation is" is not a valid or competitively minded argument. You can't just handwave criticism away with this. No one said anything about not wanting to use what you listed (btw you didn't respond to the goofiness of using Zapdos as a check), but that they're all shaky and offensive checks at best which doesn't address the lack of defensive counterplay (plus they're all susceptible to Kyurem's set variety BS). Not sure who even mentioned Chilly into Kyurem because I didn't but also nothing of Ursaluna, Conk (LMAO) or Enamorus are remotely comparable. Two of these have extremely low speed and can't nearly as easily get into position even into slower teams (plus one of them is not remotely viable), and Enamorus is very easy to scout with a halfway decent team. You keep dismissing criticisms as though people complaining are building super passive teams but that's both baseless and-

thx for the message. im not going to debate further. peace

...bad faith. In any case if you weren't intending on honestly engaging, please don't leave comments like that. It's not constructive in the least.

Getting off this topic however I'd like to steer discussion in another direction specifically for two Pokemon

Both Garganacl and Corviknight have been on a big upswing as of late, once more bringing some stability and reliability for teambuilding. Corv notably had a really strong run through SPL despite the presence of Gholdengo and Garganacl doing... well, Garganacl things. What I'm interested in hearing about is what are the community's opinions on both of them right now? What sets are you running on them (assuming you use them)? Are there any unusual or underrated sets you think people should explore?

 

[Rekka's Backend]

What sets are you running on them (assuming you use them)?

Garg is cool.

Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Salt Cure
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Recover

Garg that sits there and hurt things is even cooler. Especially with Grassy Terrain and some proper answers to its usual weaknesses. I love running this thing on a team that has Weavile and Zapdos. Both effectively shut down a lot of common Garg answers and provide a reasonable way for it to enter and start setting up; i LOVE Garg as a set up sweeper.

 

[veti]

No one said anything about not wanting to use what you listed (btw you didn't respond to the goofiness of using Zapdos as a check),

This is very bad faith, all they did was send a command for faster pokemon and didn't explicitly say that obviously they dont think zapdos is a kyurem check. What they are saying is position faster pokemon to prevent Kyurem from attacking first, which is a completely valid point, I doubt any of you are dumb enough to actually think they're saying Zapdos beats Kyurem just because they didn't explicitly say "these Pokemon besides Zapdos" in the post.

Anyways, team matchups are part of the game, and a good one at that. Balance shouldn't have a positive matchup into everything, otherwise balance would be the only thing ever used and the meta would be extremely centralized. As someone who uses balance a lot Kyurem isn't even some insurmountable obstacle, you have av regens, revenge killers, steels, you can simply outplay by positioning. Balance even with Kyurem is already good enough that its fairly common in high ladder and spl and there are definitely outs balance has vs kyurem even if it can be a negative matchup, outside of revenge killers you have mons like weavile, av mola, balloon gambit, balloon gholdengo, av crown, gking esp with av, tinkaton, spdef molt. Even Great Tusk commonly runs Tera Ice which is a surprisingly not bad tera type for living hits somehow and also powers up ice spinner vs stuff like zapdos and gliscor. Even calcs that have no context like tera ice specs blizzard vs gking aren't damning evidence that gking cant be a tool to outplay kyurem still, gking has to come in to set the chilly and mons like gambit, weavile, dragapult, offensive zamazenta can come in to threaten gking and deny a chilly to kyurem simultaneously, and gking can come in to scout the move before going into a resist / immunity depending on the move.

DD vs Specs vs Subtect Kyurem is generally really easy to tell and DD shouldn't autowin, if you really have a bad mu vs DD Kyurem if it gets a single dd on a specs kyurem counter switchin because you refuse to put any outs to it on your team, you can go into something that denies a second dd or just beats dd kyurem that you don't need health on. You should have outs though, like tera lu, pecharunt, zamazenta, unaware clef, or garganacl to name a few mons.

 

[Coin Flip]

This is very bad faith, all they did was send a command for faster pokemon and didn't explicitly say that obviously they dont think zapdos is a kyurem check. What they are saying is position faster pokemon to prevent Kyurem from attacking first, which is a completely valid point, I doubt any of you are dumb enough to actually think they're saying Zapdos beats Kyurem just because they didn't explicitly say "these Pokemon besides Zapdos" in the post.

Anyways, team matchups are part of the game, and a good one at that. Balance shouldn't have a positive matchup into everything, otherwise balance would be the only thing ever used and the meta would be extremely centralized. As someone who uses balance a lot Kyurem isn't even some insurmountable obstacle, you have av regens, revenge killers, steels, you can simply outplay by positioning. Balance even with Kyurem is already good enough that its fairly common in high ladder and spl and there are definitely outs balance has vs kyurem even if it can be a negative matchup, outside of revenge killers you have mons like weavile, av mola, balloon gambit, balloon gholdengo, av crown, gking esp with av, tinkaton, spdef molt. Even Great Tusk commonly runs Tera Ice which is a surprisingly not bad tera type for living hits somehow and also powers up ice spinner vs stuff like zapdos and gliscor. Even calcs that have no context like tera ice specs blizzard vs gking aren't damning evidence that gking cant be a tool to outplay kyurem still, gking has to come in to set the chilly and mons like gambit, weavile, dragapult, offensive zamazenta can come in to threaten gking and deny a chilly to kyurem simultaneously, and gking can come in to scout the move before going into a resist / immunity depending on the move.

DD vs Specs vs Subtect Kyurem is generally really easy to tell and DD shouldn't autowin, if you really have a bad mu vs DD Kyurem if it gets a single dd on a specs kyurem counter switchin because you refuse to put any outs to it on your team, you can go into something that denies a second dd or just beats dd kyurem that you don't need health on. You should have outs though, like tera lu, pecharunt, zamazenta, unaware clef, or garganacl to name a few mons.

I can generally ID specs Kyu and DD Kyu pretty easily. What are you looking for that tells you it’s a subtect or mixed set?

I also want to say “simply outplay by positioning” isn’t a good or helpful point. I agree that balance doesn’t need to have a positive match up into everything, and that the tier benefits from breakers, but I don’t think anyone is arguing that balance needs to be the dominant playstyle.

 

[JackRG]

Both Garganacl and Corviknight have been on a big upswing as of late, once more bringing some stability and reliability for teambuilding. Corv notably had a really strong run through SPL despite the presence of Gholdengo and Garganacl doing... well, Garganacl things. What I'm interested in hearing about is what are the community's opinions on both of them right now? What sets are you running on them (assuming you use them)? Are there any unusual or underrated sets you think people should explore?

I think defog corv is a lot better than people give it credit for, it just needs to be paired with another hazard remover that can deal with dengo like boots tusk, gweezing or ace. Definitely don’t use it as your only defogger on a team that needs reliable anti hazard measures tho.

 

[veti]

I can generally ID specs Kyu and DD Kyu pretty easily. What are you looking for that tells you it’s a subtect or mixed set?

Subtect is paired with a hazard removal and is on teams that dont need a sweeper and already have a powerful wallbreaker, rillaboom can also be a way to tell because kyurem+rilla fat is almost always subtect, obviously people will use suboptimal teams so you can never 100% guess the set of any mon ever but good subtect kyurem teams are usually those that are really good into hazards and have a different pokemon to provide immediate damage. Mixed depends on what mixed set you're talking about.

 

[JackRG]

Subtect is paired with a hazard removal and is on teams that dont need a sweeper and already have a powerful wallbreaker, rillaboom can also be a way to tell because kyurem+rilla fat is almost always subtect, obviously people will use suboptimal teams so you can never 100% guess the set of any mon ever but good subtect kyurem teams are usually those that are really good into hazards and have a different pokemon to provide immediate damage. Mixed depends on what mixed set you're talking about.

yeah subtect isn't really broken other than the freeze fishing it tends to reward. Also I believe the mixed set they are referring to is tera ice with dd spear freeze dry earth power

 

[Magcargo]

"That's just how the generation is" is not a valid or competitively minded argument. You can't just handwave criticism away with this. No one said anything about not wanting to use what you listed (btw you didn't respond to the goofiness of using Zapdos as a check), but that they're all shaky and offensive checks at best which doesn't address the lack of defensive counterplay (plus they're all susceptible to Kyurem's set variety BS). Not sure who even mentioned Chilly into Kyurem because I didn't but also nothing of Ursaluna, Conk (LMAO) or Enamorus are remotely comparable. Two of these have extremely low speed and can't nearly as easily get into position even into slower teams (plus one of them is not remotely viable), and Enamorus is very easy to scout with a halfway decent team. You keep dismissing criticisms as though people complaining are building super passive teams but that's both baseless and-



...bad faith. In any case if you weren't intending on honestly engaging, please don't leave comments like that. It's not constructive in the least.

Getting off this topic however I'd like to steer discussion in another direction specifically for two Pokemon

Both Garganacl and Corviknight have been on a big upswing as of late, once more bringing some stability and reliability for teambuilding. Corv notably had a really strong run through SPL despite the presence of Gholdengo and Garganacl doing... well, Garganacl things. What I'm interested in hearing about is what are the community's opinions on both of them right now? What sets are you running on them (assuming you use them)? Are there any unusual or underrated sets you think people should explore?

Corv has always been one of the most underrated Pokémon in the metagame. It's not uncommon to see a squad of six Popular offensive Pokémon like Val, Samu, Dnite, Tusk, Gambit, and Lando-T for example just completely fold to the Bird. Meanwhile, it pairs well with every offensive and defensive Pokémon in the sun thanks to its perfect defensive typing, Pressure, and U-Turn. Gliscor, Kyurem, Raging Bolt, Darkrai, Ting-Lu, Gambit, Weavile, etc. all love Corv's presence given its pivoting capabilities and the vital defensive roles it provides for a team. Dealing with Ground / Fairy types is tough in SV and Corv Provides that utility while not being completely destroyed by Knock Off like Moltres is. Something
worth noting is that Corv is one of the best Pokémon in longer games thanks to pressure and it's great matxh-up into Gliscor, with pressure also helping punish mindless gking pivoting. I won't lie - Rocks chip is annoying for Corv, but it is one of the few Pokémon in SV that that doesn't completely fold after taking a Knock, which is very valuable. Toxic Immunity + pressure is also critical against another rising star, Pecharunt.

Most of its general problems also just seem to be becoming less and less of an issue as time passes. Playing less Mindlessly against Helmet Taunt Lando-T teans has made that MU far more clearly be in Corv's favor imo sinxe Lando-T is getting worn down quicker by Rocks & is vulnerable to the same chip helmet tactics that corv could worry about. Players always complain about the Ghold match-up, but Corv also pairs very well with most anti Ghold Pokémon like Cinderace, Ting,Lu, Darkrai, and more. Ting-Lu in particular mostly just shores up most of Corv's defensive woes by beating most of its checks like Iron Moth and Raging Bolt. I think the CorvLu Core in particular is why Corv saw amazing success in SPL, as it is one of Ting's best partners. With Moon gone, CorvKingLu becomes even stronger, as do other styles featuring Gliscor and the like. Corv is even more favorable in these conditions imo.

With Corv, I typically just run Physdef sets since they tick more building check boxes, but as I've stated in a few earlier post, cloak bulk up is also a good win-con vs a fair number of teams. I think that set gets better after Moon ban.

 

[hoyesdomingo]

This is very bad faith, all they did was send a command for faster pokemon and didn't explicitly say that obviously they dont think zapdos is a kyurem check. What they are saying is position faster pokemon to prevent Kyurem from attacking first, which is a completely valid point, I doubt any of you are dumb enough to actually think they're saying Zapdos beats Kyurem just because they didn't explicitly say "these Pokemon besides Zapdos" in the post.

Anyways, team matchups are part of the game, and a good one at that. Balance shouldn't have a positive matchup into everything, otherwise balance would be the only thing ever used and the meta would be extremely centralized. As someone who uses balance a lot Kyurem isn't even some insurmountable obstacle, you have av regens, revenge killers, steels, you can simply outplay by positioning. Balance even with Kyurem is already good enough that its fairly common in high ladder and spl and there are definitely outs balance has vs kyurem even if it can be a negative matchup, outside of revenge killers you have mons like weavile, av mola, balloon gambit, balloon gholdengo, av crown, gking esp with av, tinkaton, spdef molt. Even Great Tusk commonly runs Tera Ice which is a surprisingly not bad tera type for living hits somehow and also powers up ice spinner vs stuff like zapdos and gliscor. Even calcs that have no context like tera ice specs blizzard vs gking aren't damning evidence that gking cant be a tool to outplay kyurem still, gking has to come in to set the chilly and mons like gambit, weavile, dragapult, offensive zamazenta can come in to threaten gking and deny a chilly to kyurem simultaneously, and gking can come in to scout the move before going into a resist / immunity depending on the move.

DD vs Specs vs Subtect Kyurem is generally really easy to tell and DD shouldn't autowin, if you really have a bad mu vs DD Kyurem if it gets a single dd on a specs kyurem counter switchin because you refuse to put any outs to it on your team, you can go into something that denies a second dd or just beats dd kyurem that you don't need health on. You should have outs though, like tera lu, pecharunt, zamazenta, unaware clef, or garganacl to name a few mons.

the real bad faith argument is the fact that a user typed a single command into showdown and called it an “argument.” The fact that you are trying to defend them over people who are making very real and legitimate arguments, with actual logical reasoning (even if you disagree), feels...off.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

the real bad faith argument is the fact that a user typed a single command into showdown and called it an “argument.” The fact that you are trying to defend them over people who are making very real and legitimate arguments, with actual logical reasoning (even if you disagree), feels...off.

If someone can present a list of checks that all share a defining characteristic (in this case, that they are able to outspeed Kyurem), I fail to see why they need to explain every single thing in the list. The "bad faith" part of the post was Moyashi harping on the inclusion of Zapdos in the list, which while it should have been omitted, should have been deduced to not be part of the list by anyone with a modicum of common sense reading the argument without bias. It feels...off, to borrow your wording, that you are defending a clearly biased argument over one that uses a command to pull up a list of checks.

 

[tommytt22]

Everyone saying zapdos can't check specs kyurem, but what if it's locked into earth power does a pretty good job of checking it then, doesn't it!

 

[Moyashi]

If someone can present a list of checks that all share a defining characteristic (in this case, that they are able to outspeed Kyurem), I fail to see why they need to explain every single thing in the list. The "bad faith" part of the post was Moyashi harping on the inclusion of Zapdos in the list, which while it should have been omitted, should have been deduced to not be part of the list by anyone with a modicum of common sense reading the argument without bias. It feels...off, to borrow your wording, that you are defending a clearly biased argument over one that uses a command to pull up a list of checks.

I was going to leave the topic alone since I didn’t want to fill the forums with a topic that has, by this point, happened enough but alright.

I “harped” on Zapdos because the poster came in responding to someone’s well intentioned post venting their feelings abo it Kyurem’s presence by having a very poor attitude. You don’t lead with “not to be rude” and then dismiss complaints over Kyurem as “balance noob brain rot”. Even if I disagree with Veti a bit over Kyurem, their argument was much more constructive.

The other poster just pulled up a list of faster mons and didn’t bother to check the list or analyze actual interactions between the mons. Like an example would’ve been using a boots Darkrai on balance and trying to position it so you could knock off Kyurem’s specs. That’s a situation I’ve been in so I can agree it’s a good way to limit it. My entire issue was their dismissive attitude without bothering to engage constructively.

 

[hoyesdomingo]

If someone can present a list of checks that all share a defining characteristic (in this case, that they are able to outspeed Kyurem), I fail to see why they need to explain every single thing in the list. The "bad faith" part of the post was Moyashi harping on the inclusion of Zapdos in the list, which while it should have been omitted, should have been deduced to not be part of the list by anyone with a modicum of common sense reading the argument without bias. It feels...off, to borrow your wording, that you are defending a clearly biased argument over one that uses a command to pull up a list of checks.

“clearly biased” yes EVERYONE is biased. That's what an opinion IS. Everyone has their own biases—you, me, everyone on this forum. This is not the own you think it is.

The real “bad faith” is you attempting to justify a lazy poster, who literally typed up a command as the entirety of their argument. If they had anything more to say beyond “lol faster pokemon all beat kyurem,” I wouldn't be posting this. “Common sense” is not anything you or I think right—in fact, there are very few common sense things when it comes to debating the brokenness of something like kyurem (or it would have had MUCH closer than the previous vote). But clearly I should defer to you, Socrates, because you clearly are the final measure of whether someone has “Common sense.”

It is not just a matter of “oh, Zapdos was included oops.” It was the matter of a poster not taking any time to justify their arugments beyond just going “oh looks it's faster.” Your sarcasm doesn't shield the fact that neither you nor the person you are defending have taken any amount of care to form a proper logical argument besides, “haha let's type in commands and then ‘nuh-uh’ when people get made that I don't make an actual argument.”

 

[befi]

I think this entire conversation is just a little immature and it would be better off moving to a different topic. There is no reason for name calling or ad hominem attacks- if you want to discuss the merits of a Kyurem ban or not, you can do that very courteously and it will actually even improve the quality of the discussion.

I want to talk about Meowscarada a bit. Everyone was so focused on Rillaboom falling that no one is really talking about Meow. Maybe its because Meow's power level is just more reasonable for UU, but I still think that its a great mon in OU. An amazing Knock Off user, great pivot, great against stall, can even run hazards if you need, and quite fast too. I'm not necessarily surprised that it dropped, but I feel like it'll rise up again at some point kind of like Weavile.

 

[Klobik]

Balance players complaining about wall-breakers is a time-honored Smogon tradition and I wouldn't have it any other way. However, I think the root of Pedro's argument is being missed a bit. Since there's some newish players who frequent this thread, I'm going to spell things out a bit for those who may not know.

Smogon bans Pokemon based on their impact across the meta-game, not single archetypes or team structures. This is driven by a preservationist philosophy of only removing the most egregious elements, in order to keep as much of the game intact as reasonable and maintain a simple, easy to understand ruleset. This is done through "tiering", which is where we sort Pokemon into individual tiers based on their usage rate and of course occasionally remove problematic Pokemon or other elements from said tiers when appropriate.

We have two general metrics we use to measure whether a Pokemon crosses the line or not; skill expression and centralization.

Skill expression is essentially your ability to make interactive and impactful decisions during a battle. When meta-elements have a reductive effect on skill expression, that's when we start looking towards a ban. There's a few ways this can happen but generally it's when the random elements of the game have more of a say over the outcome of a battle than the players do. If you're able to consistently force these situations, then you could make an argument that a meta-element has a reductive effect on skill expression.

Centralization is a bit more complicated and kind of vibes-based.

First, meta-games are essentially a collection of options that give rise to strategies, viable and unviable, as players solve problems as they work towards a goal. Try to think of it as a math problem we're trying to solve collectively. Meta-game is the outcome of our progress solving this particular problem. Distinct problems will have distinct meta-games. Understanding this, centralization is inevitable as it is the byproduct of our progress. So when or how does this even become a problem? When it comes into conflict with Smogon's preservationist philosophy. Smogon wants to keep as much of the game intact and accessible as reasonable. If meta-games are developing towards a point where much of the game becomes inaccessible, then you could make an argument that it's become "over-centralized".

Over-centralization tends to be one of those "I'll know it when I see it" type of things. For example; X/Y Mega Kangaskhan had a dozen different set variations and we were all running 3+ checks + Kangaskhan itself at one point. It was kind of ridiculous and not very fun, as a lot of options were simply unviable due to how centralizing Kangaskhan and some other stuff was at the time. This is obviously over-centralized but explaining the difference between this meta-game and one like GSC would be kind of hard. Especially since GSC players don't all see their meta-game as "over-centralized."

Now, there's a final component to all of this. Remember when I said distinct problems will have distinct meta-games? One of the implications of this is that distinct meta-games exist relative to themselves because a meta-game is contextualized by it's own distinct problems. When we're looking at meta-elements, we're looking at them in comparison to how the meta-game exists currently. Not how it existed in the past or could exist in the future or how other meta-games exist, because their questions exist under different contexts. Part of what this means is, if a meta-element is out of line, it needs to be out of line relative to other meta-elements within it's own context.

If you guys want to advocate for Kyurem suspect, then you need to show that Kyurem is violating these principles in an egregious or "unfair" way. It's not enough for it to simply be hard to deal with when playing certain playstyles. My impression of Pedro and Veti's argument is that Kyurem doesn't egregiously violate these principles relative to other meta-elements, as it's 'predictable enough' to have counter-play.

I'd also suggest substantiating your arguments more. Calcs, replays, teams, etc. are important not just for substantiating your claims but also to help others put themselves in your shoes. While I don't condone the insults, I think it's hard for some to empathize when all they have to go off of is substanceless rhetoric and complaining. It could also draw in some higher-level perspectives and help you improve as players. Anyways, just some thoughts. Sorry for the wall. Hope you are all well.

 

[Magcargo]

I think this entire conversation is just a little immature and it would be better off moving to a different topic. There is no reason for name calling or ad hominem attacks- if you want to discuss the merits of a Kyurem ban or not, you can do that very courteously and it will actually even improve the quality of the discussion.

I want to talk about Meowscarada a bit. Everyone was so focused on Rillaboom falling that no one is really talking about Meow. Maybe its because Meow's power level is just more reasonable for UU, but I still think that its a great mon in OU. An amazing Knock Off user, great pivot, great against stall, can even run hazards if you need, and quite fast too. I'm not necessarily surprised that it dropped, but I feel like it'll rise up again at some point kind of like Weavile.

Yeah Meowscarada is very potent rn I think. I've always been an advocate for the Pokemon - its just that building with it can be a bit awkward since there are a few key Pokemon that you need to account for (Zamazenta, Darkrai, Weavile, and Dragpult mainly) and its speed tier is in a weird limbo where it is just below the threshold where it can be used as speed control. I'd also say it is one of the easier Pokemon to screw over with Tera.

Despite these drawbacks, it still packs a decent punch. One of the best Knock Off users thanks to Triple Axel Coverage hitting most of the absorbers very hard. Even Corviknight will be struggling to handle it long-term since axel + rocks is dealing well over 40%, forcing it into more situations where it needs to Roost. This is great for its partners like SD Gliscor or Kingambit to break later on in the match. Its also amazing at using these loops to set up Spikes.

On the surface, I'd say it is ambiguious where Meowscarada won out from the Roaring Moon ban - I think it performed most of the non-DD roles like CB or scarf better than Moon as is and Scarf was also one of the best revenge killers to DD Roaring Moon. That said, I think it is clear that it was a benefactor - largely because its best partners got better with Moon gone. GKing feels significantly stronger now, and it is one of Meowscarada's best friends by setting up future sights, endless walling the contact birds, and bringing Meow in safely with Chilly Reception. I'd say most of Meowscarada's non-Scarf sets are much better now with Moon gone.

Normally I am an advocate for running weird sets on Pokemon like Meowscarada - CB I think is a good breaker and I think other items like Expert Belt or even Rocky Helmet were under explored on Bulky Offense teams. That said, I think the best set right now probably is the Spikes / Knock Off / Axel / U-turn set with Boots that hellom made. While Expert Belt / Band Meowscarada are both potent breakers against bulkier builds still, many of the structures that I have used them on just feel far too weak to Webs / Sun to be consistent. Boots + Spikes just gives you the flexibility for most of these match-ups, esp when paired with Gking to cancel out sun. While I think Meowscarada has a lot of advantages compared to Ogerpon-W, I feel like its biggest one still is that it does not get worn down by hazards + has a more potentent "STAB" Combo with Knock Off + Axel. There are many moments I feel where it can be even more overwhelming for a balance team to beat because of this.

I am hoping we see more structures arise that use the cat. Think it still has a lot of room for growth and experimentation.

 

[befi]

Yeah Meowscarada is very potent rn I think. I've always been an advocate for the Pokemon - its just that building with it can be a bit awkward since there are a few key Pokemon that you need to account for (Zamazenta, Darkrai, Weavile, and Dragpult mainly) and its speed tier is in a weird limbo where it is just below the threshold where it can be used as speed control. I'd also say it is one of the easier Pokemon to screw over with Tera.

Despite these drawbacks, it still packs a decent punch. One of the best Knock Off users thanks to Triple Axel Coverage hitting most of the absorbers very hard. Even Corviknight will be struggling to handle it long-term since axel + rocks is dealing well over 40%, forcing it into more situations where it needs to Roost. This is great for its partners like SD Gliscor or Kingambit to break later on in the match. Its also amazing at using these loops to set up Spikes.

On the surface, I'd say it is ambiguious where Meowscarada won out from the Roaring Moon ban - I think it performed most of the non-DD roles like CB or scarf better than Moon as is and Scarf was also one of the best revenge killers to DD Roaring Moon. That said, I think it is clear that it was a benefactor - largely because its best partners got better with Moon gone. GKing feels significantly stronger now, and it is one of Meowscarada's best friends by setting up future sights, endless walling the contact birds, and bringing Meow in safely with Chilly Reception. I'd say most of Meowscarada's non-Scarf sets are much better now with Moon gone.

Normally I am an advocate for running weird sets on Pokemon like Meowscarada - CB I think is a good breaker and I think other items like Expert Belt or even Rocky Helmet were under explored on Bulky Offense teams. That said, I think the best set right now probably is the Spikes / Knock Off / Axel / U-turn set with Boots that hellom made. While Expert Belt / Band Meowscarada are both potent breakers against bulkier builds still, many of the structures that I have used them on just feel far too weak to Webs / Sun to be consistent. Boots + Spikes just gives you the flexibility for most of these match-ups, esp when paired with Gking to cancel out sun. While I think Meowscarada has a lot of advantages compared to Ogerpon-W, I feel like its biggest one still is that it does not get worn down by hazards + has a more potentent "STAB" Combo with Knock Off + Axel. There are many moments I feel where it can be even more overwhelming for a balance team to beat because of this.

I am hoping we see more structures arise that use the cat. Think it still has a lot of room for growth and experimentation.

I've been curious about protective pads. Obviously it already has so many items it wants to run, but I'm wondering if that can be a viable set too. Maybe ill try to build a team around that. Like you eluded to, it really loves boots so idk

It also underratedly gets sucker punch which can be used on teams that desperately need priority

 

[Moyashi]

My problem with Meowscarada is that without a Band to boost its power, its actual damage output is very underwhelming most of the time (even Garg can stay in on Flower Trick to pressure it if necessary, particularly notable mid-late game). PPads might solve the contact issue, but it still is worn down too fast by hazards and the lack of defensive utility is frustrating. Dark-types like Weavile and Darkrai have better overall applications by virtue of better power and speed, and toolkits suited to the tier. Weavile is a lot harder to knock off sponge without Clefable or Corv, and forces progress better without giving up on power. Plus it having priority in a pinch is valuable, while Darkrai can customize itself to its user's liking. It still is naturally fast, and its access to Will-o-Miss and Knock Off are unique as well as potent for making progress as well into stubbornly resilient pokemon like Ting-Lu or Garganacl (Wisp for the former, knock for the latter). Both these darks have better match ups into the meta overall even with just running HDB sets.

Meowscarada running Band might alleviate the power issue, but turns it into a prediction reliant breaker that still faces hazard issues while also having to contend with contact punishing effects. In short, there isn't any one fix to the individual issues it has and that's why I feel like it's inconsistent and not especially good. I know some players vouch for it, personally I just don't.

 

[toshimelonhead]

Here's the dirty truth about SV OU that Meowscarada exemplifies - only exceptional outliers have a consistent home and everything that's only "good enough" gets beaten out by another one of the 750 or so options available. 123 base speed and 110 base attack is solid only until Zamazenta comes in with more speed and enough defense for the attack power to barely make a dent. Rillaboom is in the same power crept out boat. The gaps between "exceptional and busted", "exceptional but manageable", and "very good but not exceptional" both offensively and defensively are not that large, but can be the difference between something that gets banhammered and something that barely scrapes PU.

SV OU is a ruthless meritocracy worse than a stack ranking at a tech company. You either have overwhelming stats, absurd role compression, some broken interaction (Booster Energy, Psychic Terrain, etc.), or you’re getting fired or on a PiP. And Pokemon don't survive PiPs. They fall to UU.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

I wonder, how many "theoretical" good mons have fallen into UU or below? Serperior? Boom? Meows?
Mons that would normally be at least very good in other gen OU but is absolutely mid in this gen OU

 

[Avira]

I don't consider Serperior as a good mon considering it's not great even in UU this generation. Losing Hidden Power was a significant nerf to Serp's viability and dedicating your Tera to Serperior is a huge cost. The main reason Rillaboom is UU this gen is 'cause Grassy Glide was nerfed. Had it still been 70 BP or even 60 BP, it may have still been OU. Meowscarada with pre-nerf Protean would be a really great mon in OU.