Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[tommytt22]

oh and playing against Gliscor, Zamazenta, mola, garg, GKing etc is??? Everything you said about those mons you can say about having all these fat walls. That’s tedious and unfun. There is no diversity because there is only a select amount of mons that can break through these things or get progress. These fat mons strangle and warp the meta around them same as the offensive mons you say will do same thing.

Your takes are so bad I almost think you're ragebaiting us. How is zamazenta a "fat wall"? It's offensive. Other than Zama, kyurem can deal with every Pokemon on that list by itself, ursaluna can blow past all of them too. Raging bolt? Primarina, hydrapple? there's plenty of options.

Blood moon Ursa isn’t a problem in tier with chien pao, iron bundle, av ape, palafin, urshifu, sneasler, fire pon, etc. but it is a problem when you banned everything else and that is my point your mindset is only set to “well if my wall can’t deal with x then it’s broken” when I’m saying the that’s not the only way. If the meta shifts more to offense dealing with offense then it shifts there. The solution is not to force it into defense being able to handle every offense, because it can’t, but it can if you ban enough things.

Keldeo brother???? Latios??? Get real

This reads like someone who didn't participate in the suspect. Tera poison blood moon could beat literally all of those (except maybe specs bundle?) it received one of the highest ban percentages ever and none of those options would've changed that.

 

[Cessora]

“Broken checks broken is notoriously a horrendous way to balance the metagame, and the many years of Smogon tiering policy have shifted away from it for this exact reason. Sure, some Pokemon won't be broken if you free all the Ubers, for example, but people do not want to play "Iron Bundle, Palafin, and the 4 friends to support/check them", because that metagame will be endlessly more limiting than whatever you perceive the current metagame to be”


You proved my entire point. You fear the meta game shifting naturally to something different but want to force it be one way. And you don’t even know how the meta would turn out or be you are
Just guessing based on what? We haven’t had a meta in SV OU where we allowed to see how it would settle if we didn’t have 20 banned Pokémon

(Again I’m not arguing for no bans ever) but your reasoning is based off fear mongering and drinking the koolaid that 20 bans were good for the tier.

You probably got the Covid vaccine too huh?

Literally 1984, Finch got to them and warned the post.

But back to normal, I feel like specifically tail glow Manaphy is a mon that just requires so much investment around it, and I’m not good enough of a teambuilder for that (this is why booster iron val is the greatest pokemon of all time).

 

[658Greninja]

oh and playing against Gliscor, Zamazenta, mola, garg, GKing etc is??? Everything you said about those mons you can say about having all these fat walls. That’s tedious and unfun. There is no diversity because there is only a select amount of mons that can break through these things or get progress. These fat mons strangle and warp the meta around them same as the offensive mons you say will do same thing.

Please don’t make me laugh.

Gen 9 even after all the bans is still one of the easiest gens to make progress in. There’s several ways to make progress vs balance. I’m gonna run them down.

Tera Dark Gambit
Waterpon
Kyurem
Samu
SD Gliscor + hazards
NP/Knock Darkrai
Scarf/Specs Ghold
CM Draco Raging Bolt
DBond Valiant
Garg
FS Gking/AV Gking
CM Clef
Prima
NP Deo-S
Tera Ghost Weav
CM/Specs Enam
Hydrapple
Ursaluna
Specs Keldeo
CM Latios
Specs Proto SpA Wake under Sun
Volcanion
SD LO Chomp
Hoopa-U
Meow + Hazards
Manaphy
Rockpon
Iron Hands

SV OU has no shortage of ways to break balance, its just that now you have to think more clearly about positioning rather than spamming the overtuned sweeper. If you are struggling with the Balance MU, consider these options to open up holes for your wincons. Play patiently. Build around supporting these threats.

 

[Bold School]

To provide a conversation topic to shift away from this, how do people feel about Manaphy currently? Starring on the latest Webs sample, my experience with the Pokemon has been 50% "this is blowing up the entire enemy team" and 50% "it did 30 to Ting Lu got phased endlessly and then died". What do yall think?

Manaphy was broken initially in the DLC before falling off hard. Since then, it has been too slow and setup reliant for faster teams. Encore also increased in popularity, which doesn't help it. Manaphy might be a decent wallbreaker against balance or bulky offense, but stall will almost always have Clod and/or a bulky water besides Dozo. I feel like it's maybe a bit all or nothing both in game and for the meta in general. If it gets good again, it might get too good.

My belief here is that Manaphy needs to have more than just a set to take off. It has the stats to be physical, too. But the move pool doesn't allow much physical setup. So it would probably have some jank CB set with Liquidate, U-turn, Knock Off, and maybe some sort of Tera Blast? I don't know if that would be any good. Maybe an attack invested mixed set with Take Heart setup? There are also support options like screens, but this seems suboptimal compared to better screen setters. Same for a trapping set, which seems inferior to what Azumarill could do.

I have a hard time liking Cloak in general because it feels like such a big commitment of an item compared to other options, as its uses are much more specific and specialized so in match ups where the reasons you bring the item aren't present, it feels like a dead item slot. Now granted, Garganacl and Pecharunt are very good in the meta so it's not like this as often, but I dunno I feel like there has to be better ways for Manaphy to take advantage of them.

Cloak is a great item. I'm pretty sure we got in an argument about this before where I said cloak was a good item besides for just Garg. Like bulky setup mons. A lot of good players have innovated good Covert Cloak sets since then, including that Tera Fairy Covert Cloak Roaring Moon set before that mon was banned. I don't know what your hang up on this item is given the evidence we have now.

Just in case, I'll list a few other common use cases. Mons like Darkrai and Kyurem won't status you on their attacks. You avoid Burn from Sinistcha and Scald Alomomola. Psychic Noise doesn't stop you from healing. There are so many use cases besides just Garg and Pech.

 

[rinagram]

you know what really enables balance? gholdengo. impossible to remove on it. spikes for days. therefore it makes games filthy stall and needs to be ILLEGAL. also gholdengo dm’ed me pics of his hoard and called me poor which was a big meaniehead thing to do, but i can’t say anything back because good as gold blocks my account

 

[Cessora]

you know what really enables balance? gholdengo. impossible to remove on it. spikes for days. therefore it makes games filthy stall and needs to be ILLEGAL. also gholdengo dm’ed me pics of his hoard and called me poor which was a big meaniehead thing to do, but i can’t say anything back because good as gold blocks my account

Who gave Corv access to the Internet?

 

[Moyashi]

setup. So it would probably have some jank CB set with Liquidate, U-turn, Knock Off, and maybe some sort of Tera Blast?

I am today years old when I learned Manaphy learns U-Turn (and Knock Off wtf). Though that still isn’t as strange as Keldeo inexplicably learning Pain Split.

Cloak is a great item. I'm pretty sure we got in an argument about this before where I said cloak was a good item besides for just Garg. Like bulky setup mons. A lot of good players have innovated good Covert Cloak sets since then, including that Tera Fairy Covert Cloak Roaring Moon set before that mon was banned. I don't know what your hang up on this item is given the evidence we have now.

Just in case, I'll list a few other common use cases. Mons like Darkrai and Kyurem won't status you on their attacks. You avoid Burn from Sinistcha and Scald Alomomola. Psychic Noise doesn't stop you from healing. There are so many use cases besides just Garg and Pech.

I’ll just reiterate what I’ve said before, that i believe you’re better off simply playing around those secondary effects with other methods rather than using an item that is very specific and prone to just being removed by knock off. I’m not saying it doesn’t have any use cases, but it’s just a very specific item and I’m not fond of it. If it works for you, more power to you.

 

[UT]

You probably got the Covid vaccine too huh?

So are you just cool with people dying for literally no reason, or is this some kind of "I am smarter than everyone and think I know more than the people who dedicated their lives to studying infectious disease" kind of thing?

 

[tommytt22]

So are you just cool with people dying for literally no reason, or is this some kind of "I am smarter than everyone and think I know more than the people who dedicated their lives to studying infectious disease" kind of thing?

save your breath, these people think its a conspiracy and anyone who disagrees is just "part of it" whatever that means


Ive been experimenting with enamorus, I'm not sure this is the final set but its where I've landed for now

Enamorus @ Leftovers
Ability: Cute Charm
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draining Kiss
- Mystical Fire
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense

essentially the exact same set as the enamorus therian one we all tried to make work ages ago. I think this actually works a lot better with the speed, you can grab boosts before taking an attack, and get draining kiss healing earlier too. I prefer mystical fire over earth power for corviknight, and the spA drop assists your bulk agaisnt things like slowking, gholdengo. I'm definitely tossing up between ground and poison tera.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2341593056

 

[KamenOH]

I'll be real: I kinda get what they're putting down. It's a right pain when your team ends up getting walled by a fat fucking stall team, and no matter what you do, how you switch, they end up wasting your PP on their what, Blissey? Unaware Dondozo? I'm not a staller so I don't know for certain.

However, what I don't get is the jump from "Defense is too strong" to "Unban Iron Bundle, the 2-move 'mon deleter." I'd support inquiries on defensively-powerful Pokémon certainly, like Zamazenta (No matter what you say, it's a monster defensively), Gholdengo (It's versatility in preventing hazard chip and status spreading speaks for itself), and Gliscor the Toxic Regenerator, but that's it. As much as I'd like to bring back other banned Pokémon, the one with the closest chance was Palafin iirc, and that was definitively kept out of OU.

To not beat a dead horse too harshly, what's stopping Kingdra from being used on rain teams? It's neutral into Ogerpon's Ivy Cudgel, though I get why you'd not want to take one and risk the 2HKO off such a potent attack, and Ice Beam hits the aformentioned Gliscor as well as Landorus-Therian and other Flying types like Zapdos (it'll probably not get the OHKO on you while you outspeed in rain) and I guess Great Tusk with Hydro Pump? I wouldn't risk a 95 SpA Surf or Muddy Water, that's for sure. Probably a full Speed EV, half-half SpA and Def EV set if you had to.

 

[Cessora]

To not beat a dead horse too harshly, what's stopping Kingdra from being used on rain teams? It's neutral into Ogerpon's Ivy Cudgel, though I get why you'd not want to take one and risk the 2HKO off such a potent attack, and Ice Beam hits the aformentioned Gliscor as well as Landorus-Therian and other Flying types like Zapdos (it'll probably not get the OHKO on you while you outspeed in rain) and I guess Great Tusk with Hydro Pump? I wouldn't risk a 95 SpA Surf or Muddy Water, that's for sure. Probably a full Speed EV, half-half SpA and Def EV set if you had to.

I wasn’t playing during the broken rain days, so I don’t really know what the meta looked like right after, but rain becomes so inconsistent when Wogerpon is around. You can never feel safe clicking a hydro pump into any mon, (if you lock specs Kingdra or band Barraskewda into a water move they can just switch Wogerpon in and set up on you) and it’s really strong grass STAB means it’ll be able to destroy the water types of the team, while smacking everything around with its own boosted ivy cudgels. The only rain staple it has a really bad matchup into is Zapdos, and you can find a way to cover it in your other five spots.

Just checked, +2 Ivy Cudgel from wogerpon does 78-92 to Zapdos and OHKO’s if you tera

 

[Disrespectn]

So are you just cool with people dying for literally no reason, or is this some kind of "I am smarter than everyone and think I know more than the people who dedicated their lives to studying infectious disease" kind of thing?

My Grandma died from Covid brother, but that’s not the point. My point is the blind following and appeal to authority just because people say so or it’s the status quo, which is what I said assuming the meta will turn out this way because ‘x’ said so, and not thinking for yourself.

All this assuming that the meta will turn out this way if we free these mons when we don’t know, just based on what you’ve been lead believe.

Ive had people here tell me that if we unban these mons that the whole meta is going to warp around each of them… Brother, there were 20 banned mons and you can only put 6 on a team at a time. But this is what fear does is causes people to think illogically.

 

[FayaWizard]

Ok, this conversation has long since deteriorated. No more continuing this, any further posts will be deleted and potentially infracted.

 

[Bold School]

I am today years old when I learned Manaphy learns U-Turn (and Knock Off wtf). Though that still isn’t as strange as Keldeo inexplicably learning Pain Split.

On a sort of related note, we would probably want to go for U-turn over Flip Turn because of Waterpon. I estimate Tera Electric would be best to hit Corv and Dozo. It's also a good complimentary defensive typing to Water. Another thing Manaphy gets is Zen Headbut to maybe hit Zama, but I think it is diminishing returns at that point. Knock Off seems better.

Not that I have tested any of this yet. It kind of sounds like a worse version of U-turn Wellspring now that I'm thinking about it. Maybe mixed could be better. I guess I'll test both and see how it goes.

 

[Cessora]

Not that I have tested any of this yet. It kind of sounds like a worse version of U-turn Wellspring now that I'm thinking about it. Maybe mixed could be better. I guess I'll test both and see how it goes.

Maybe 4 attack, U-turn, Knock, Liquidation, Zen Headbutt with AV could do something? That's the only physical set I could see doing anything at all, a decently bulky pivot that can't regen isn't anything special though.

 

[Welcome to mars]

what's stopping Kingdra from being used on rain teams? It's neutral into Ogerpon's Ivy Cudgel, though I get why you'd not want to take one and risk the 2HKO off such a potent attack, and Ice Beam hits the aformentioned Gliscor as well as Landorus-Therian and other Flying types like Zapdos (it'll probably not get the OHKO on you while you outspeed in rain) and I guess Great Tusk with Hydro Pump? I wouldn't risk a 95 SpA Surf or Muddy Water, that's for sure. Probably a full Speed EV, half-half SpA and Def EV set if you had to.

Kingdra is used on rain as a niche form of special power, but it isn’t used that much as it can sometimes lack the power that rain needs due to having 95 special attack since hydro pump has a high chance of missing and draco meteor can rarely be used more than once and isn’t boosted by rain. Its main set is using maximum power choice specs and not any defense evs. Not to mention any rain team without overqwil (which should be mandatory since its the best swords dance swift swimmer) or zapdos will auto lose to water shrek.

Speaking of shrek, that pokemon is arguably the reason why kingdra doesn’t see much OU usage in general since we all know what it does to rain, sun is also good rn and its best mon is a quad water resist which makes things worse given that torkoal’s lower speed tier allows it to turn rain into sun on the first turn of a sun v rain match.

 

[toshimelonhead]

FayaWizard I'll throw you a bone on Manaphy. It's a lot better than its reputation. I use it more as a balance breaker than a cheese Veil sweeper, since Ogerpon-W hard counters it and there’s no way around that matchup.

The key is avoiding the temptation to go for the home run every turn. If Ting-Lu is healthy, Scald it first and phish for a burn instead of trying to stack Tail Glow. My optimized version plays a little slower—but it's more reliable in real games.

Alluring Voice is mostly for Kyurem, but it also soft-checks Iron Valiant and Darkrai in a pinch. Psychic is my personal tech for Toxapex or Amoonguss if they reappear back in OU; if you want to gamble, swap it for Tail Glow. The EV spread is to outspeed Gliscor and Kyurem and provides a nice balance of bulk and power once boosted.

Overqwil is a fantastic partner with this set. It's bulky enough to trade, forces chip with Rocky Helmet, and layers Spikes while pressuring common pivots. EV spread on Overqwil outspeeds Kingambit, lives two Close Combats from Iron Valiant, and maximizes rolls to KO Ogerpon-W and Valiant. Set and sample below.



Teardrop (Manaphy) @ Leftovers / Covert Cloak
Ability: Hydration
Tera Type: Ghost / Fairy
EVs: 112 HP / 180 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Take Heart
- Scald
- Alluring Voice
- Psychic / Tail Glow


Puff Daddy (Overqwil) (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 88 HP / 176 Atk / 188 Def / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Poison Jab
- Liquidation
- Spikes

A (Low Ladder) Manaphy sweep
Pastebin of a sample team

 

[June Heat]

Hello OU it's been awhile. Did a little laddering post RM ban. Gotta say it feels better. Good job team! The only Pokemon I actively dislike now is Raging Bolt. Had a Tera Fairy Bolt at like 73% live a Sludge Bomb from standard AV GKing for the win, hate that.

Been trying out Tinkaton, and that has been going well. Crazy how it took til Darkrai for this mon to gain the momentum it needed when it has always been pretty good. Glad to see it in OU. Really like paring it with Bulk Up Great Tusk since it knowing Stealth Rocks/Knock Off really frees GT to boost up, and rampage. Also Bulky Bulk Up Great Tusk <3.

That's all I really have to say for now. Question! How have ya'll been enjoying the post Moon meta?

 

[UltraSword]

After seeing all the discussions about Magnezone I decided to make this:
Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Tera Blast
- Flash Cannon
- Steel Beam
Now obviously you can do tera fire and/or choice scarf on this set instead but the reason I chose tera fighting is because it actually has a bit of defensive value. Fighting doesn't give you any resistances to types Magnezone was weak to but the idea is that steel resists all the types fighting is weak to and because of that pokemon will be less likely to use one of those types of attacks against Magnezone. Not to mention while fire is weak to ground, fighting is only neutral to it which isn't as good as a resist but is solid enough to prevent the average ground type from ohkoing you. I am personally not good enough to actually use this set on a competent team but if anyone wants to give it a try please feel free.

Funny Kingambit calcs for your viewing pleasure.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fighting Magnezone Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 984-1164 (288.5 - 341.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fighting Magnezone: 104-123 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Cessora]

That's all I really have to say for now. Question! How have ya'll been enjoying the post Moon meta?

I feel like it's actually been pretty good, but sadly the lack of moon means that I've seen like one meow in three days of laddering. Otherwise, I think people are taking some time to readjust their sun teams, so I haven't seen much of that either. I feel like specs pult balance has been on the up, though that might just be me not having a big enough sample size.

I decided on a whim today to try out banded hoopa-u again now that Moon was banned. It still has a lot of weaknesses, but some typical u-turn abusers have seen decreased usage (lando and meow mostly, pult, cinderace, ogerpon and the like are still going strong). I felt like it was surprisingly easy to slot onto the team, just give it a slow pivot or two to bring it in safely on a wall or weaker special attacker. Mainly used it to just come in, hit one or two attacks for stupid damage, and then switch back out to Glowking or rotom-wash.

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Band
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

16 Speed EVs just to outspeed max speed Kingambit if you really need to, and you can destroy anything else on the switch in.

 

[toshimelonhead]

Choice Band is tempting on Hoopa-U, but I don't think it's its best item. Your intuition is correct - give it a slow pivot and let it wreck whatever it can. My concern here is the penalty of guessing "wrong" is much better than guessing correctly, and I find the flexibility of not using a choice item is helpful to make better midground plays. It really doesn't need more power, but needs a way to get and stay on the field consistently. My personal favorite item is still Assault Vest even after the memes of Specs Hoopa-U getting knocked off the OU ledge several generations ago. It's not quite fast enough to leverage Choice Scarf so might as well switch in against as many threats as it can just to get an attack off.

 

[Cessora]

Choice Band is tempting on Hoopa-U, but I don't think it's its best item. Your intuition is correct - give it a slow pivot and let it wreck whatever it can. My concern here is the penalty of guessing "wrong" is much better than guessing correctly, and I find the flexibility of not using a choice item is helpful to make better midground plays. It really doesn't need more power, but needs a way to get and stay on the field consistently. My personal favorite item is still Assault Vest even after the memes of Specs Hoopa-U getting knocked off the OU ledge several generations ago. It's not quite fast enough to leverage Choice Scarf so might as well switch in against as many threats as it can just to get an attack off.

You're right that it's a little inflexible, but you can just get so many OHKO's with it than without. AV is nice, I've tried it before, and tbh it's probably better for a majority of teams, but building around it, I feel like banded is a better set considering AV or not you'll have to switch out whenever something remotely physically threatening comes in, and so the staying power is less useful during the beginning of the game. I think that even if band is worse, it's still a viable set, even if just for the surprise kills.

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raging Bolt: 340-400 (86.9 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- Takes 55 from T-bolt and then OHKO's it back

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 260-306 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 211-250 (52.8 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Even Corv isn't a safe switch, I've had a couple games where they've come and then got 2HKO'ed by Knock

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 622-734 (95.3 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ogerpon: 351-414 (116.6 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 398-470 (107.2 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Araquanid: 313-369 (92 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
- This one's far less important and less consistent but it's just funny getting their web setter off rip and now they're scrambling

I think that even with the inflexibility, it has surprising staying power since a lot of the time you can just click drain punch and gain 30% on whatever you just hit. I think it's a bit of an underrated set, definitely not some crazy anti-meta pick, but if you fit it with the right pieces I think you can get around the limitations of cb pretty easily.

 

[tommytt22]

Someone mentioned offensive regenerator pivots the other day. Funnily enough that day I ran into choice band alomomola. Aside from the shock of flip turn doing 40% to my ting lu, it was as bad as it sounds haha.

It did get me thinking about this core though.

@ Choice Band
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 8 Def / 248 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- U-turn
- Outrage
- Supercell Slam/ Knock off

@ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torch Song
- Slack Off
- Roar
- Earth Power


This replay, while not against a high level player, is at least a demonstration of now this works:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2342183672

Cyclizar has a blistering speed tier, sitting above all booster Pokemon aside from iron boulder. It also eclipses relevant threats such as cinderace, ogerpon, walking wake, keldeo, serperior and the like. The trick is ensuring you can remove booster energy from valiant and iron moth, I've found roar skeledirge to be very consistent at that job, but roar Moltres may be effective as well.

Cyclizar may not have massive attack stat but more than makes up for it with high power moves. Pairing this team with hazards or even sand chip ensures you achieve OHKO. Regenerator ensures you can spam double edge without fearing longevity.

252 Atk Choice Band Cyclizar Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 259-306 (89.6 - 105.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk Choice Band Cyclizar Double-Edge vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 304-358 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk Choice Band Cyclizar Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 300-354 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Cyclizar Supercell Slam vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 184-218 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

What I like about this core is that there's no gimmicks or surprises needed, it's as straightforward as it gets.

 

[Magcargo]

That's all I really have to say for now. Question! How have ya'll been enjoying the post Moon meta?

Been grinding up a bit and have been enjoying post-Moon ban meta much more.

I will admit, I did understand the value Roaring Moon brought to the metagame. I do believe it can be very difficult for Hyper Offensive teams to compete due to the inherent restrictions brought about by them via their weakness to pivoting tactics, entry hazards, etc. I do feel Roaring Moon's role as strong Knocker / progress maker into fatter teams did have value. That said, I feel the typical commitment of needing to Tera + sequence exactly correct against Roaring Moon to be far too tall of an order for myself in most games + quite restrictive to cooler building options because of how inherently difficult DD Sweepers with Tera are to check. Also to be frank, I do not at all like fighting most of the bullshit cheese teams that moon found itself on like Veil, Sun, or other HO structures. I won't act like these teams are necessarily skillless compared to spamming Chilly Reception with Gking or clicking Ruination a bunch with Ting-Lu, but it def did get annoying to build teams that I thought were fine, only to get cheesed out by Tera Fairy Moon, or Tera Ground Moon, or needing to Tera my Pecharunt to beat Moon only to get trolled by something else in the back.

I've mostly been using Meow teams post moon ban and a lot of them feel significantly better, which is a great sign of general meta health (for me anyways). I have been getting a bit more annoying by Gambit / Zama lately, but tbh I am mostly fine with both and feel they both add far more to the metagame than Roaring Moon. Aside from the standard guys people complain about (Kyurem / Gliscor) I believe Dragonite is very likely to see tiering action soon for the same reason as Roaring Moon / Gouging. I think it is similar in the positive impact in has for teambuilding to Zama / Gambit with its Tera normal sets, but we are seeing too many different variants with the advent of Tera Ground + Stone edge, Tera Ground + Ice Spinner, Tera Blast Ghost + Low Kick, Tera Fire Scale Shot + Fire Punch, Tera Blast Fairy + EQ, Tera Blast Flying + Earthquake, that let it pick and choose its counters to an even higher degree than Roaring Moon or Gouging Fire IMO. I am hoping that the idea of entertaining a Dragonite suspect is the proverbial can that finally lets us get rid of Tera Blast, as I feel that move gives too many of these set up sweepers like Gambit, Moon, Dragonite, Goug, Kyurem, Raging Bolt, etc. too much versatility with the extra coverage and makes them more difficult to contain with standard options.

 

[Bold School]

I'll just give a small update on some preliminary testing I did on Choice Band Manaphy. It wasn't terrible, but I've seen enough despite not testing for long. It was indeed worse Wellspring. Liquidation is a pretty spammable move with a cool defense drop chance, but Ivy Cudgel's crit chance and base power are simply better. Tera Electric was kind of cool into Corv and some things, but not as good as Ogerpon brute forcing things. The Grass STAB Oger has also does better into stall since the Sap Sipper immunity is rare and less things that take Water STAB like switching into it. Well, it was at least good to confirm it.

Next I'll probably try a mixed set with Mystic Water Liquidation and setup. The issue is it this will probably struggle against bulky Waters. One observation I had with the meta is I ran into way more Keldeo and Kyurem than I did before RM got banned. Alluring Voice can cover for that, Hamurott, Zama, and some other things. I might try it over Ice Beam. But I am wary of Sinistcha and such. I might need really good team support, which would make the appeal of this set worse. I think U-turn might still be best despite leaving no room for special coverage options.