Announcement SV National Dex Suspect #19 - Moonlight

[DarmanitanDLuffy]

Are we playing the same meta game. Ferro most commun set happen to be twave or knock. It's a 50 50 on what it runs. Ghold runs focus Blast most of time.

+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Ferrothorn: 166-196 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery

252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 166-196 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 328-386 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Need anymore example. Mind you most of these cal are adamant

T-wave ferro still loses 1v1 to moon and that’s a winning trade for offense into balance. Also, +1 jolly knock off into EQ kills Ferro even with leech seed recovery. Focus blast Ghold is completely irrelevant since Roaring Moon can still set up on it and if you miss then Moon immediately wins.

I’m glad that a max defense Corv doesn’t get 2hko’d by an unboosted attack from a pokémon with 119 base speed, thank you so much for including that calc even though it doesn’t refute the fact that Moon beats BP corv if you DD on the switch.

Melmetal can’t switch into moon and has to give up 70% of its HP just to revenge kill.

 

[tpfire]

T-wave ferro still loses 1v1 to moon and that’s a winning trade for offense into balance. Also, +1 jolly knock off into EQ kills Ferro even with leech seed recovery. Focus blast Ghold is completely irrelevant since Roaring Moon can still set up on it and if you miss then Moon immediately wins.

I’m glad that a max defense Corv doesn’t get 2hko’d by an unboosted attack from a pokémon with 119 base speed, thank you so much for including that calc even though it doesn’t refute the fact that Moon beats BP corv if you DD on the switch.

Melmetal can’t switch into moon and has to give up 70% of its HP just to revenge kill.

Yes but no. I'm to lazy to agrue rn but your acting like moon has a free switch and opponent can predict my every move. Ferro beats moon 1v1, it has a chance to love if it switches in. Like I said to lazy to agrue cause neither of us are going to come to a an agreement

 

[Moyashi]

Your taking the stuff at face value. 12% chip is alot and ferro runs twave alot of time. Along with power whip and iron barb, a plus 2 is not doing alot compare to the chip damage.

That doesn't change the fact that, there are checks and counter. Z move moon are walled by clefable ferro corv and many other fairy steel type. Corv body press does around 80% and can take a knock. Your acting like moon comes in the field with plus 2 and plus 2 speed. It's very easy to make it stop setting up. Ghold can twave or just click focus Blast. Sure ghold is dead but you deny it a ddance. I mostly recommend this vs ho and bo since vs ho its more impactful. Dark z is very uncommon and it's more common with z dragon

Clefable is one Pokemon that only fits on slower teams, and still has to trade much of its health for a KO on Moon which allows members of Moon's team to take advantage of. Ferro doesn't actually wall Moon very well, and has to remain quite healthy to avoid dropping to a boosted Moon (which isn't the easiest since Ferro is tasked with handling quite a lot typically so it gets worn down). Corviknight is an underwhelming and flawed pokemon in the meta game right now as a whole, making it not exactly optimal.

With Gold, risking clicking Focus Blast instead of pivoting to a check you have is unreliable given the shaky accuracy, and Twave variants still often end up trading themselves for Moon. Which again, opens up Moon's teammates. This is even more impactful because Gholdengo is a critical defensive Pokemon that many teams rely on to check many threats, so this trade is very beneficial for the HO team.

Are we playing the same meta game. Ferro most commun set happen to be twave or knock. It's a 50 50 on what it runs. Ghold runs focus Blast most of time.

+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Ferrothorn: 166-196 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery

252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 166-196 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 328-386 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Need anymore example. Mind you most of these cal are adamant

https://munchstats.com/gen9nationaldex/1760/Ferrothorn

Ferrothorn doesn't commonly run TWave at high ladder at all. It's pretty uncommon next to its common choices. And see above about Ferro getting worn down which isn't hard to accomplish. Melm similarly sees a lot of action and has to remain quite healthy to check Moon. And both Ferro and Melm (as well as Corviknight but again it's not a great mon) give free set up for a common lethal teammate, SubSwsrm Volcarona.

Given its presence on HO, the threat of Moon is further magnified by Screens or hazards backing it (MDiancie is a very potent example of a lead but Screens Zama is similarly efficient).

Beyond specific checks like Fini, Clefable there aren't any true hard stops. Lando-T? That just trades itself to chip Roaring Moon at best. Great Tusk? Can't handle Booster Acro at +1 and explodes to +1 Devastating Drake with just tiny prior chip.

 

[ecxdee]

Are we playing the same meta game. Ferro most commun set happen to be twave or knock. It's a 50 50 on what it runs. Ghold runs focus Blast most of time.

+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Ferrothorn: 166-196 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery

252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 166-196 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 328-386 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Need anymore example. Mind you most of these cal are adamant

I feel like youre really looking at things in a vacuum. In reality, a z-dragon roaring moon will be able to knock ferro's lefties and come back later to 2hko after a dd. Also, even if you do manage to stop moon, it will always come at a huge cost. Corv loses 60% and its item, mel is basically dead, ferro loses a huge chunk and its lefties, etc. Then, the next sweeper comes in and uses it as fodder. Clef is basically the only mon that doesnt effectively die after checking moon, and you can't expect someone to put it on every team.

 

[tpfire]

I feel like youre really looking at things in a vacuum. In reality, a z-dragon roaring moon will be able to knock ferro's lefties and come back later to 2hko after a dd. Also, even if you do manage to stop moon, it will always come at a huge cost. Corv loses 60% and its item, mel is basically dead, ferro loses a huge chunk and its lefties, etc. Then, the next sweeper comes in and uses it as fodder. Clef is basically the only mon that doesnt effectively die after checking moon, and you can't expect someone to put it on every team.

Well now your looking at stuff in a vacuum by saying how the next sweeper comes in and set like I won't have a supporting Def core. Moon is not by any chance overpowered. The question is, does it restrict team-building. There are checks and counter but those counter can be worn down to help other sweeper. I personally think its fine.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Well now your looking at stuff in a vacuum by saying how the next sweeper comes in and set like I won't have a supporting Def core. Moon is not by any chance overpowered. The question is, does it restrict team-building. There are checks and counter but those counter can be worn down to help other sweeper. I personally think its fine.

Do you know what looking at stuff in a vacuum means?

//


Roaring Moon does restrict teambuilding. You basically have to have your whole team healthy to face a Single ROaring moon. and, idk f you've played against a lot of good HO players before, but it's incredibly hard to do and you need very specific cores for it to happen against a well-built HO. Roaring moon is UNDENIABLY restricting in the builder

 

[tpfire]

Do you know what looking at stuff in a vacuum means?

//


Roaring Moon does restrict teambuilding. You basically have to have your whole team healthy to face a Single ROaring moon. and, idk f you've played against a lot of good HO players before, but it's incredibly hard to do and you need very specific cores for it to happen against a well-built HO. Roaring moon is UNDENIABLY restricting in the builder

Playing against ho vs a good player is generally hard no matter what mon. It's high risk high reward. Checks and counter exist. Sure it restrict team-building but so does so many other mon but that's doesn't mean it deserves to get banned. In ky opinion a sweeper should olny get banned if it can bypass some of its most common answers

 

[Moyashi]

Well now your looking at stuff in a vacuum by saying how the next sweeper comes in and set like I won't have a supporting Def core. Moon is not by any chance overpowered. The question is, does it restrict team-building. There are checks and counter but those counter can be worn down to help other sweeper. I personally think its fine

Except it’s not in a vacuum. It’s proven to happen pretty consistently. Just the example I gave already of SubSwarm Volcarona, is a dangerous situation to be put into as the opponent has to awkwardly find a way around it which isn’t too easy because the sub will go up as the opponent switches out and Volc will start boosting, and a subbed up Volc is a major headache to remove especially with a boost under its belt. Like what’s your answer to SubSwarm Volcarona after Roaring Moon?

Playing against ho vs a good player is generally hard no matter what mon. It's high risk high reward. Checks and counter exist. Sure it restrict team-building but so does so many other mon but that's doesn't mean it deserves to get banned. In ky opinion a sweeper should olny get banned if it can bypass some of its most common answers

Sweepers don’t have to bypass checks to be ban worthy. Enabling of other teammates through its own power, restriction in the builder, how easily it can boost and do serious exploitable damage, these are all elements that contribute to something potentially being an issue.

You keep making vague statements like “ other mons restrict building” or “it has checks and counters” (it has no true counter outside maybe Clefable which still loses to Booster Moon under screens) and don’t even list what these other restricting or what checks supposedly exist.

 

[tpfire]

It’s

Except it’s not in a vacuum. It’s proven to happen pretty consistently. Just the example I gave already of SubSwarm Volcarona, is a dangerous situation to be put into as the opponent has to awkwardly find a way around it which isn’t too easy because the sub will go up as the opponent switches out and Volc will start boosting, and a subbed up Volc is a major headache to remove especially with a boost under its belt. Like what’s your answer to SubSwarm Volcarona after Roaring Moon?



Sweepers don’t have to bypass checks to be ban worthy. Enabling of other teammates through its own power, restriction in the builder, how easily it can boost and do serious exploitable damage, these are all elements that contribute to something potentially being an issue.

You keep making vague statements like “oh other mons restrict building” or “it has checks and counters” (it has no true counter outside maybe Clefable which still loses to Booster Moon under screens) and don’t even list what these other restricting or what checks supposedly exist.

After I use my ferro clef corv or lando to answer moon depending on the set I usually have a shifu mega ttar or toxapex to answer volc. I'm not sure what to say cause I already said how moon has alot of answer. Also pokemon isnt about check and answer. It's also about pivoting, if you just reley on checks and counter then yes obviously your going to get overwealm by sweeper. Sometimes you have to pivot, not let Roaring moon set up free.

 

[DarmanitanDLuffy]

After I use my ferro clef corv or lando to answer moon depending on the set I usually have a shifu mega ttar or toxapex to answer volc. I'm not sure what to say cause I already said how moon has alot of answer. Also people isnt about check and answer. It's also about pivoting, if you just reley on checks and counter then yes obviously your going to get overwealm my sweeper. Sometimes you have to pivot, not let Roaring moon set up free.

MTar doesn’t even check Subswarm Volc and if subswam volc is coming in late game then there’s a decent chance Urshifu has been chipped into its range if it’s +1.

You can’t “pivot” on Roaring Moon because you can’t give it free turns to set up.

You should try actually playing the tier before you argue about tiering. Coming in and being this confidently wrong is obnoxious and doesn’t help anything. There are legitimate arguments for keeping Moon in the tier but you have continually shied away from making them in favor of spouting barely legible nonsense.

 

[tpfire]

MTar doesn’t even check Subswarm Volc and if subswam volc is coming in late game then there’s a decent chance Urshifu has been chipped into its range if it’s +1.

You can’t “pivot” on Roaring Moon because you can’t give it free turns to set up.

You should try actually playing the tier before you argue about tiering. Coming in and being this confidently wrong is obnoxious and doesn’t help anything. There are legitimate arguments for keeping Moon in the tier but you have continually shied away from making them in favor of spouting barely legible nonsense.

Funny how you mention this, I played theater alot and got high on ladder and got the coil for suspect. What i found is that yeah no your just ignoring teambuilding and making point in a vacuum. Roaring moon is not going to get a free opportunity to set up and without a set up its kinda week

 

[Moyashi]

After I use my ferro clef corv or lando to answer moon depending on the set I usually have a shifu mega ttar or toxapex to answer volc. I'm not sure what to say cause I already said how moon has alot of answer. Also people isnt about check and answer. It's also about pivoting, if you just reley on checks and counter then yes obviously your going to get overwealm my sweeper. Sometimes you have to pivot, not let Roaring moon set up free.

Mega Tyranitar loses to SubSwarm Volcarona. Urshifu has a questionable match up into HO and if Volcarona QDs instead of subs as you switch, it just blows Urshifu up with +1 Savage Spin Out. Pex is fine enough but is limited to bulkier slower teams.

I addressed Tusk, Lando and other stuff you brought up as so called checks, and how they’re not really good answers at all. What else is there? Please answer.

Funny how you mention this, I played theater alot and got high on ladder and got the coil for suspect. What i found is that yeah no your just ignoring teambuilding and making point in a vacuum. Roaring moon is not going to get a free opportunity to set up and without a set up its kinda week

No one is ignoring team building. There’s a short list of consistent checks and most teams have to trade to limit it, weakening themselves for the rest of its HO teammates. It does this too well.

Moon easily gets free set up on quite a range of the tier especially thanks to its HO teammate supporting it. Also calling it weak without a boost is laughable and just wrong. One of the primary reasons it’s so threatening is its high natural strength even unboosted.

You’re essentially arguing through multiple posts that you just have the right mons always and will make the right plays no matter the circumstances or match ups. This isn’t realistic for anyone consistently.

 

[tpfire]

You will never have the right mon to beat a certain sweeper. That's just pokemon. There's going to be something that beats you. Also your describing how a ho team works. Ho team stack up on offensive threats to overwealm threats. Ferro tusk gliscor clefable corv lando tapu fini, I can name more, all beat it in some way

 

[Moyashi]

You will never have the right mon to beat a certain sweeper. That's just pokemon. There's going to be something that beats you. Also you’re describing how a ho team works. Ho team stack up on offensive threats to overwealm threats. Ferro tusk gliscor clefable corv lando tapu fini, I can name more, all beat it in some way

Actually, good teams can generally play around bad match ups vs set up sweepers through strategic planning and smart play. But this works because those set up sweepers are balanced. You say that’s how HO works which is technically true, but there’s a reason why prior to Moon being freed a couple months ago HO was generally pretty inconsistent and not a particularly strong archetype.

We’ve already gone over why Ferro is shakey and just trades itself at best to weaken Moon (and no TWave is not it, it’s an uncommon set). Gliscor is not at all a check, it explodes to +1 Devastating Drake as do Tusk and LandoT unless running max physical bulk. Max bulk Tusk is a garbage set and while max bulk LandoT is good, it again just trades itself to weaken Moon which opens up other members of Moon’s team while also letting Moon weaken another pokemon before going down. Corv is mediocre as a pokemon right now. Tapu Fini is viable but niche and hard to build with, and is a heavily flawed pokemon. Clefable is the closest hard stop there is but can’t beat Booster Acro sets when they’re behind screens.

Unlike other HO threats it enables HO itself to an unbalanced degree and warps building tightly around it, which is bad enough because the tier already has a warping threat in Spikes Gliscor.

 

[digo]

Roaring Moon is being very complicated to deal with, you need to play around it for the entire match, otherwise, in the end game he clears your entire time,also being 105 hp and 101 sp def,can help it set up in front of a lot of things,so you can get it at +1 basically every game,in addition to the Z move sets that are very broken,always ensuring atleast one kill in the match, and of course, nothing can outspeed this after a Dragon Dance.
so without any doubt,ill be voting ban.

 

[rice enjoyer]

Fun to use but nightmare to face so yea lets ban this guy this the team i used https://pokepast.es/f1a3530df544a738 also reqs should be harder

 

[lyra__4]

Not remotely a clean run, but managed to obtain reqs for the first time! For quite a while it kept on feeling like I was 1 or 2 wins away from hitting the required COIL but then would lose a bunch of battles afterwards. Not sure what im going to vote for, but honestly looks like roaring moon is gonna get banned anyways so it doesnt matter much

 

[mrfraud]

Not remotely a clean run, but managed to obtain reqs for the first time! For quite a while it kept on feeling like I was 1 or 2 wins away from hitting the required COIL but then would lose a bunch of battles afterwards. Not sure what im going to vote for, but honestly looks like roaring moon is gonna get banned anyways so it doesnt matter much

Even if you think the vote may swing one way or another regardless of your vote it is important that you do form an opinion on whether you think banning Roaring Moon would improve the health of the metagame considering this suspect will probably shape the long term enjoyability of the metagame especially regarding ndpl and ladder tour and it only takes watching a few replays within the space of a week

 

[averagetoxapexlover]

I will be voting Ban on Roaring Moon.

This particular Pokemon has foregone many tier changes from being banned early on in development of the tier, to being allowed to return and surviving multiple suspects to stay in the tier up until now (hopefully). The context of it surviving those tests were the tier was still developing post tera - but we've had 6 whole months and its been abundantly clear that RM is too taxing on the metagame

 

[MRH1106]

will be voting DNB roaring moon keeps the game fair

 

[rice enjoyer]

will be voting DNB roaring moon keeps the game fair

do not agree at all but ok its ur choice if u want to

 

[lyra__4]

Even if you think the vote may swing one way or another regardless of your vote it is important that you do form an opinion on whether you think banning Roaring Moon would improve the health of the metagame considering this suspect will probably shape the long term enjoyability of the metagame especially regarding ndpl and ladder tour and it only takes watching a few replays within the space of a week

Do take the following with a grain of salt cause Im not really a very good player, more of a casual player for the most part, barely obtained reqs and if they used the old system of 80 GXE and 1750+ elo I would probably not have been able to but okay uhh then here are my thoughts:

I used two different teams to get the suspect reqs, pinkacross' mega altaria team which has a physically defensive Mega Altaria and a screens offense team with a physically defensive grimmsnarl. Neither of my teams really had roaring moon as a major threat, I was more worried about mega scizor and random bulky sweepers for pinkacross mega altaria team and more worried about random things like priority and status on my screens team. But now after reading through those arguments and thinking about it, there were a couple of times when Roaring Moon got really scary for both teams, if the fairy types on either team died or got chipped down enuf by something else, then Roaring Moon could sweep the entire team after a single dragon dance + dragonium Z to muscle past alo. Particularly for pinkacross mega altaria team, wogerpon + roaring moon was really bad because the only thing that countered both was mega altaria. So uhhhh even with a physically defensive fairy type on both teams both were still vulnerable to roaring moon, thus I will be voting ban I guess

 

[Runo]

will be voting DNB roaring moon keeps the game fair

Could you please elaborate on this? This seems like a loaded statement.

 

[emilyinchains]

Do not ban, guy isn't as irritatingly broken as Volc and not as annoying as Gliscor. Roaring Moon isn't too broken IMO, you just have to keep your checks well-maintained. I fought a lot of moons doing reqs and got swept maybe once or twice. Maybe it's because I used a high-octane offense team that was able to maintain pressure on Moon consistently but I never had that many problems with it. I wouldn't be sad either way, but I feel that Gliscor and Volc are bigger problems than Moon.

 

[Nish the Great]

Voting DNB. Only talking about DD Dragonium Z because thats the only possibly broken set, I dont think its egregious in a way that other dragon dance sweepers aren't; it rips through the sort of medium-offense that leans too hard on scarfers and raw bulk to check opposing offense, and can pick up wins versus bulky teams lacking an actual counter. Unlike gouging fire, it can't bulk its way through opposing attacks, which means very fast offensive teams don't crumple into it. I disagree with the premise that it is warping the meta towards Hyper-Offense, the resurgence of the playstyle is very much a response to the rise of a tier defining, homogenous bulky teamstyle running the meta (Glisc+Ghold Hstack Balance).
In terms of counters and checks:
Hyper offense treats it the same as every other setup sweeper, and most HO mons can prevent it from getting free setup
Offense is definetely the worst playstyle into it, but given the pace of both their teams and the pace of DD Moon teams, Zama, terap, melm, and priority can handle it.
Balance gets things like clef (which doesnt compromise your matchup into glisc stack), and ferro
And idt anyone really cares if stall takes the L (they don't)