Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

I would say my favorite lefties mon is ID Zama with Roar.

I feel TTar is better as a special wall with AV. But you can't use it as your rocker if you do that. You also need the right team for it.
 
UltraSword said:
To be fair everything is cooler than Ting Lu. Too bad Tyranitar's stats can't really keep up in this meta. Sand is also not very good at all anymore since the risk of chip damage in a meta where everything is running boots as the default over leftovers outweighs the reward now. Not to mention that sand rush Excadrill feels way less bulky and powerful in this power crept gen. You would be better off using mold breaker and the only thing Excadrill has over the much better Great Tusk is that it is a steel type that speed ties into Pecharunt (which is actually pretty interesting, but it isn't worth using over Great Tusk in almost any other circumstance). Yeah, Ttar fell off this gen, but we should appreciate what it did in the gens before and maybe it deserves to retire from ou in peace.

Edit: I should clarify that I don't think Tyranitar is unviable. It just doesn't stack up very well against way too many common threats.
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Don't really think Ttar's stats are to blame, they're still incredible. It's really just the shit typing that only gets worse. Old gens had powerful psychic types that Ttar could check but look at at the top tiers in gen9 OU. Tusk, Zama, Gambit, Wogerpon, Gliscor, Ghold, Ting Lu, Valiant, etc. The flood of ground types is really bad for it. It also doesn't really make any progress, it has Knock but it's easily walled (especially since Rock STAB is ass), no pursuit to punish special attackers that can only tickle it, it's a terrible rocker into Tusk and Corv and it doesn't really check much apart from like Moth. It'd be much better if it wasn't hit super effectively by basically everything.
 
UltraSword said:
To be fair everything is cooler than Ting Lu. Too bad Tyranitar's stats can't really keep up in this meta. Sand is also not very good at all anymore since the risk of chip damage in a meta where everything is running boots as the default over leftovers outweighs the reward now. Not to mention that sand rush Excadrill feels way less bulky and powerful in this power crept gen. You would be better off using mold breaker and the only thing Excadrill has over the much better Great Tusk is that it is a steel type that speed ties into Pecharunt (which is actually pretty interesting, but it isn't worth using over Great Tusk in almost any other circumstance). Yeah, Ttar fell off this gen, but we should appreciate what it did in the gens before and maybe it deserves to retire from ou in peace.

Edit: I should clarify that I don't think Tyranitar is unviable. It just doesn't stack up very well against way too many common threats.
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Tyranitar's stats are actually still excellent. It's just that its STAB combo and base typing are don't cut it offensively (Great Tusk, Zamazenta, Kingambit, Iron Valiant, and Ting-Lu) or defensively anymore since this generation saw an influx of offensive Ground, Water, and Steel-type Pokemon in OU with mons Tyranitar used to check well in OU, such as Blacephalon, Heatran, Slowbro, and Tapu Koko, either being dexited or nerfed heavily, making Tyranitar's niche less important.

For reference to TTar's huge special bulk, here are a couple of calcs which show that TTar actually takes strong attacks such as Walking Wake's Draco Meteor better than Ting-Lu does, meaning its stats aren't the issue:

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 192-226 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Actually, Sand Rush still gives Excadrill a niche it has over Great Tusk since it'd be able clean weakened teams with its very high speed in sand. Yes, Mold Breaker gives it a better match-up into Hatterene since she can't bounce its Stealth Rock back, but to suggest that the only thing Excadrill has over Great Tusk is its match-up into Pecharunt is a completely incorrect statement even though Great Tusk is admittedly a much better Pokemon.
 
Avira said:
Tyranitar's stats are actually still excellent. It's just that its STAB combo and base typing are don't cut it offensively (Great Tusk, Zamazenta, Kingambit, Iron Valiant, and Ting-Lu) or defensively anymore since this generation saw an influx of offensive Ground, Water, and Steel-type Pokemon in OU with mons Tyranitar used to check well in OU, such as Blacephalon, Heatran, Slowbro, and Tapu Koko, either being dexited or nerfed heavily, making Tyranitar's niche less important.

For reference to TTar's huge special bulk, here are a couple of calcs which show that TTar actually takes strong attacks such as Walking Wake's Draco Meteor better than Ting-Lu does, meaning its stats aren't the issue:

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 192-226 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Actually, Sand Rush still gives Excadrill a niche it has over Great Tusk since it'd be able clean weakened teams with its very high speed in sand. Yes, Mold Breaker gives it a better match-up into Hatterene since she can't bounce its Stealth Rock back, but to suggest that the only thing Excadrill has over Great Tusk is its match-up into Pecharunt is a completely incorrect statement even though Great Tusk is admittedly a much better Pokemon.
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Excadrill could always clean theoretically weakened teams. The issue this gen, is that it simply needs way too many things weakened or out of the way to try and sweep. Teams are loaded with too many hard stops or soft checks to let it do much of anything. Ting-Lu invalidates it without Tera shenanigans, while Great Tusk is similarly a headache. Zapdos, Moltres and Corv all give it large amounts of grief. Hydrapple isn’t crazy common or easily splashed on teams but it also just about entirely stuffs Sand. Zamazenta is a very annoying roadblock outside late game, and Gliscor and Lando aren’t fun either. And Alomomola just giggles.

Worse is you’ll usually see at least two of any of these on a team on average and this makes it too much work for little reward that may not even work out in the end. It’s not consistent really and I’d argue its niche is dwindling as the metagame develops. Especially because you’re already running a bad Pokémon in Tyranitar to support it, which guts the team’s defensive security more.
 
pixelpenguin said:
Don't really think Ttar's stats are to blame, they're still incredible. It's really just the shit typing that only gets worse. Old gens had powerful psychic types that Ttar could check but look at at the top tiers in gen9 OU. Tusk, Zama, Gambit, Wogerpon, Gliscor, Ghold, Ting Lu, Valiant, etc. The flood of ground types is really bad for it. It also doesn't really make any progress, it has Knock but it's easily walled (especially since Rock STAB is ass), no pursuit to punish special attackers that can only tickle it, it's a terrible rocker into Tusk and Corv and it doesn't really check much apart from like Moth. It'd be much better if it wasn't hit super effectively by basically everything.
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Avira said:
Tyranitar's stats are actually still excellent. It's just that its STAB combo and base typing are don't cut it offensively (Great Tusk, Zamazenta, Kingambit, Iron Valiant, and Ting-Lu) or defensively anymore since this generation saw an influx of offensive Ground, Water, and Steel-type Pokemon in OU with mons Tyranitar used to check well in OU, such as Blacephalon, Heatran, Slowbro, and Tapu Koko, either being dexited or nerfed heavily, making Tyranitar's niche less important.

For reference to TTar's huge special bulk, here are a couple of calcs which show that TTar actually takes strong attacks such as Walking Wake's Draco Meteor better than Ting-Lu does, meaning its stats aren't the issue:

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 192-226 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Actually, Sand Rush still gives Excadrill a niche it has over Great Tusk since it'd be able clean weakened teams with its very high speed in sand. Yes, Mold Breaker gives it a better match-up into Hatterene since she can't bounce its Stealth Rock back, but to suggest that the only thing Excadrill has over Great Tusk is its match-up into Pecharunt is a completely incorrect statement even though Great Tusk is admittedly a much better Pokemon.
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I apologize for not clarifying about Tyranitar's stats. What I meant to say was that it has too low speed for what it does offensively and it's base typing. I also apologize for saying Pecharunt was the only thing Excadrill has over Great Tusk as I should of said it was one of the only things or the most significant thing.
 
Moyashi said:
Excadrill could always clean theoretically weakened teams. The issue this gen, is that it simply needs way too many things weakened or out of the way to try and sweep. Teams are loaded with too many hard stops or soft checks to let it do much of anything. Ting-Lu invalidates it without Tera shenanigans, while Great Tusk is similarly a headache. Zapdos, Moltres and Corv all give it large amounts of grief. Hydrapple isn’t crazy common or easily splashed on teams but it also just about entirely stuffs Sand. Zamazenta is a very annoying roadblock outside late game, and Gliscor and Lando aren’t fun either. And Alomomola just giggles.

Worse is you’ll usually see at least two of any of these on a team on average and this makes it too much work for little reward that may not even work out in the end. It’s not consistent really and I’d argue its niche is dwindling as the metagame develops. Especially because you’re already running a bad Pokémon in Tyranitar to support it, which guts the team’s defensive security more.
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Even worse is the pair of Tyranitar and Excadrill don't have great synergy together anymore outside of Sand Stream + Sand Rush. Tyranitar can't handle Excadrill's rough spots without major sacrifice or adjustment to its core role, and when teambuilding constraints remain heavy that's not an acceptable OU win path. UU maybe. OU has are 30 different better win conditions out there - not even hyperbole.
 
Man, all these talks about Sand makes me miss the Galarian fossil mons. Not Dracovish ofc, but it's Arctozolt and Dracozolt.
At least Sand has a decent-ish Sand Rush mon (Excadrill). But Snow? In a gen that they buff Snow, there are only some slow mons with either mono-ice typing (Celtitan and Beartic) or a terrible duo typing that doesn't help offensively nor defensively (Alolan Sandslash)
 
Power creep has not been easy on sand, resulting in the playstyle becoming far more niche, especially teams that run tyranitar and excadrill, its been experimented with to some success in gen 9 OU, but this recent meta just doesn’t favour a playstyle like it.
 
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I mean, the Mon that was supposed to keep Sand viable this Gen was Last Respects Houndstone, but it ended up being broken. With Band Poltergeist + Play Rough + Body Press its still kinda viable, but that has terrible sinergy with Tar's Knock Off, so you have to use Hippo (which for me is a better setter anyway).
 
My only question is: how exactly is Weavile still OU when a hard counter to it rose to the tier at the exact same time, in addition the metagame already being extremely hostile towards it (Z*ma, Valiant, Corv, Dozo, Prim, Pult, Dr*gonite, the two elephants, and all the Ch*ice Sc*rf users that can easily OKO it)? And why the fuck are Ceruledge and Deoxys-S rising again?
 
Seraphyde said:
My only question is: how exactly is Weavile still OU when a hard counter to it rose to the tier at the exact same time, in addition the metagame already being extremely hostile towards it (Z*ma, Valiant, Corv, Dozo, Prim, Pult, Dr*gonite, the two elephants, and all the Ch*ice Sc*rf users that can easily OKO it)? And why the fuck are Ceruledge and Deoxys-S rising again?
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Still using goofy name censors lol

But anyways, the meta is certainly not extremely hostile to it. Zamazenta? Tinkaton? Corv? Prim? None of those love losing their items at all. Zama in particular doesn't enjoy losing its Boots or Leftovers which inhibits its longevity greatly. Prim is just the same as the Fini match up Weavile has in gen7: no natural recovery and losing its leftovers/Boots or even AV is more crippling and lets Weavile's teammates formerly checked by it now have an easier time getting through.

Pult and Dragonite being included is very... Interesting considering the former is afraid of Ice Shard and the latter is dominated by Weavile. Tusk might not always instantly be afraid of Weavile but it also doesn't want to be taking huge damage from it when it also is needed to check other things on Weavile's team, and Treads is often an early game Pokemon. All the Choice Scarf users? Such as...?

Weavile has a strong place in the meta game as a breaker and progress maker than doubles as speed control, since it's still naturally very fast and strong threatening so much of the meta game.

As for Ceruledge and Deoxys Speed, the former is just being used a lot on aggressive offensive stuff like Sun on ladder lately (it feels very flavor of the month) whole DeoS was always good and should really never have been dropped in the first place but ladder gonna ladder.
 
I believe Weavile is a strong attacker with good speed and attack, the latter of which can be boosted with swords dance to increase the power of its good stab moves in knock off, triple axel and ice shard. It ohkos dragonite due to triple axel hitting three times and knock off provides good utility in item removal which causes its switch ins to lose their items like leftovers and heavy duty boots and also threatens most pokemon that want to switch into its powerful triple axel.

It has its flaws like being very frail on the physical side, getting countered by kingambit and zamazenta, often needing setup to hit hard and not being able to viably run a set where it can boost its speed (agility + swords dance is a terrible set that should not be entertained unless you’re running the most mouldy match up fishy cheese team to ever hit mid ladder) which can cause it to be revenge killed by anything that doesn’t fold to ice shard, but the lack of a speed boost is not a severe flaw given that most of faster pokemon do not like a 2+ ice shard to the face.
 
Seraphyde said:
And why the fuck are Ceruledge and Deoxys-S rising again?
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:ceruledge:
notably ceru got a LOT better post moon ban, no longer needing to compromise its excellent STABS with CC

:deoxys-speed:
deo-s also benefits from a lack of moon threatening to dd, but also imo was slept on - it’s an excellent hazard lead and offensive sets are hugely underexplored rn asw - as some of you may know i have been running life orb plot tera grass gknot lately to surprising success (yes +2 tera ohkos lu)
 
ShizuOsaka said:
Man, all these talks about Sand makes me miss the Galarian fossil mons. Not Dracovish ofc, but it's Arctozolt and Dracozolt.
At least Sand has a decent-ish Sand Rush mon (Excadrill). But Snow? In a gen that they buff Snow, there are only some slow mons with either mono-ice typing (Celtitan and Beartic) or a terrible duo typing that doesn't help offensively nor defensively (Alolan Sandslash)
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Arctozolt and Arctovish would be so good this gen with the snow addition. With Tera Dracovish would probably start off in Ubers lol
 
Tapus (and Ultrabeast and Ferrothorn) not being in the Tier is the best thing to happen this Gen. Powercreep is already enormous and we have plenty of Mons in OU above 550 BST, we don,t need even more. Fini and Koko would make almost all Mons with Rest unviable, Lele was already broken last Gen WITHOUT Tera, imagine it with it. The only positive for the Meta one would be Bulu, since he checks Gliscor, Waterpon, Samurott, Garganacl, Iron Headless Gambit and some Zamazenta sets without being broken itself due to otherwise mid typing. Still, 3 are negative presence for me, only 1 is positive. If you want to use Misty or Electric Terrain, have balls and use Weezing or Pincurchin, not a 570 BST Mon that you can slap on any team. There is one guy there that already peaked 1950 with 6 below OU Mons in Electric Terrain, 5 of them sharing a type, you guys don,t need Koko, you guys need to learn to build outside of S and A rank Mons.
 
Eeveeto said:
If you want to use Misty or Electric Terrain, have balls and use Weezing or Pincurchin, not a 570 BST Mon that you can slap on any team. There is one guy there that already peaked 1950 with 6 below OU Mons in Electric Terrain, 5 of them sharing a type, you guys don,t need Koko, you guys need to learn to build outside of S and A rank Mons.
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What you're missing here is that Galarian Weezing does not wanna have the opportunity cost of setting up terrain when Neutralizing Gas is why it's 99% likely going to be OU next month. The ability now stopping the Paradox abilities put it on the map. And Pincurchin doesn't have Rising Voltage this gen when for some reason Raging Bolt does. It would appreciate being able to use that move again as well as giving it Volt Switch but interestingly, it's one of the only Electric types that don't get Volt Switch. A slow pivot would be really useful.
 
MC Squared said:
What you're missing here is that Galarian Weezing does not wanna have the opportunity cost of setting up terrain when Neutralizing Gas is why it's 99% likely going to be OU next month. The ability now stopping the Paradox abilities put it on the map. And Pincurchin doesn't have Rising Voltage this gen when for some reason Raging Bolt does. It would appreciate being able to use that move again as well as giving it Volt Switch but interestingly, it's one of the only Electric types that don't get Volt Switch. A slow pivot would be really useful.
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I obviously know Weezing likes Gas (and even Levitate) more, I am just saying that if you really want a Misty Surge user, you have one. Regarding Pincurchin, it hates not having Volt Switch, but doesnt care at all about Rising Voltage, its not killing anything with It anyway, Discharge with the para chance is much better.
 
I noticed Gholdengo is at 2 over Kingambit in recent usage. IMO this is purely because of the scarf set. This set is awesome on H-stack balance since it can act as speed control (similar to pult), can help play around threats like Kyurem much more easily due to the additional speed letting you actually revenge kill Kyurem after switching in on resisted Ice Attack, and Trick being good in the bootspam mirror to cripple something. The higher speed makes it better Spinblocker against Tusk too. This set feels decent vs all styles. IMO most other sets aren't too amazing rn (Hex IMO is not good due to Ting, NP is solid but can make u feel a bit weak vs Rai / Weav which imo are pretty strong + the speed still feels lacking vs other guys like Samu, Tusk, etc).

As for Kingambit, I am finding its lack of progress making moves like Knock Off + Tera reliance to be bigger issues in current metagame. It's still strong, but less as a glue and more as a strong wincon you gotta deliberately build around.
 
Eeveeto said:
I obviously know Weezing likes Gas (and even Levitate) more, I am just saying that if you really want a Misty Surge user, you have one. Regarding Pincurchin, it hates not having Volt Switch, but doesnt care at all about Rising Voltage, its not killing anything with It anyway, Discharge with the para chance is much better.
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Rising Voltage hits really hard under terrain. A 140 BP move with STAB from 91 Special Attack or whatever is still strong
 
MC Squared said:
Rising Voltage hits really hard under terrain. A 140 BP move with STAB from 91 Special Attack or whatever is still strong
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You don,t use Pinchurchin to kill stuff, you use it to support the team and last as long as possible. You won,t be firing Rising Voltage with Pincurchin anyway, the 32323232 ground types switch into it for free. Of those, only Tusk is really beatable with Water moves (and likely Tera), the rest are too bulky and have to get handles by teammates.
 
Pinchurchin would rather run discharge for its 30% paralysis rate, 140 bp is not that good when you cannot invest in special attack otherwise you’ll be so frail that the average stall mon is threatening to 2hko you, its also going to die too quickly with special attack investment to reliably use this high power move since it has 48 hp and lacks comically large defenses to make up for this.
 
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