Resource SV Ubers UU Viability Rankings (Post #206 for June Update)

[BigFatMantis]

D tier is generally reserved for mons that have basically no use or usage at all, solely on the VR list because they are not usable in OU and thus have to be tiered here somewhere. Given that Arceus-Grass has been used successfully on more than a couple occasions in tour games (I have two teams with it as well), it’s impossible to really classify it as D tier.

I disagree with putting it as low as C- too, but that would at least make some more sense than D tier if you truly don’t think it has many positives at all. Generally, the ground resistance is better than I think you’re selling it for. It’s definitely not great but it has easier entry than Arc-Ice sometimes and there are very clearly teams where you need the Arc-grass typing over the Arc-Ice typing.

 

[Finchely]

Response to Luna.

BFM if you're wondering where I tagged you, it's in the Regidrago section

arceus-grass

I think Arceus-Ice just kind of does everything said here better, except for the ground resist bit ofc but I doubt teams have a difficult time fitting one of the many flyers or even just Giratina as their Landorus answer. Mono Judgement also gets hard answered by Arceus-Poison & Ogerpon-H, even loses to Roaring Moon and Chi-Yu, it's defiinitely not just Gouging Fire who holds it back. It can slot EP to alleviate some of these but getting my Arceus or Gouging hit by Earth Power on the switch (Only way it beats them) just makes me go "oh" and switch to my Flying type or Giratina to phase it out. There are Pokemon that beat both sets effectively, like CM Arceus-Ice, Kyurem-White, a pivoted in Encore Iron Bundle, and probably more I forgot about. I think being an Arceus is its biggest issue, because using your Arceus slot for Arceus-Grass is pretty much a complete waste, I can be generous and say it holds on to C- like the other weird stuff.

A big reason why you'd ever use Grasseus is the ground resist, so that you're not pigeonholed into using other methods of checking Landorus, which is why I don't think it's really fair to just completely discard that attribute. Furthermore, Iceus is also weak to stealth rock, and doesn't posses a water resist, which can be pretty relevant during games where Palkia-O or Walking Wake are in play. As for CM Taunt Grasseus, I honeslty don't think it's really at all a viable set really. The only reason you'd be using Grasseus is defensive support. Stuff like, Judgment Twave Recover +1. It's by no means a perfect set of moves, but it's not completely terrible either. Ogerpon and Gouger get absolutely ruined by twave so they have to be careful. Moltres and Tina can eat a twave, but they don't exactly like doing so either, since yellow magic is stupid. I agree that the opportunity cost of using Grasseus over other Arceus formes is pretty great, which is why I'm also not exactly arguing for its use as a central pokemon to a team's structure. If you ever actually use Grasseus, it'll probably be as a last or second-to-last slot because you need a very specific combination of tools that no other Pokemon has. Do I think that teams built around other Arceus formes are generally better? Yea. But that doesn't necessarily make Grasseus and Grasseus teams unviable per se, just a little worse off for the most part. Which is all to say, Grasseus isn't great, but it's still just barely good enough that you can't just write it off as a hardly useable C- Pokemon.

pelipper

Tbh I don't think there are any more notable Pokemon that switch into Palkia-O without rain, I imagine you can just use a better squad by ditching Pelipper.

CM Arceus can function decently enough as a Palkia-O check if you position well and get a little lucky. Rain completely takes that out of the question, with how ridiculously strong hydro pump is. Solgaleo is also a useable check to Palkia-O, but that's also out of the water when rain is up. Also, when I brought up Palkia-O, I was using the most notable abuser of rain as an example to show why rain has a place, but my intention was not to say that Palkia-O is the only rain abuser. If you quickly take a look at the Ubers UU role compendium, you'll see that there are a decent number of Pokemon who are able to take advantage of Rain in some way. While not many of them are that good, they are still useable to success, in a way that isn't able to be replicated without the use of Rain. As such, Pelipper is ranked for its ability to facilitate this playstyle.

TLDR: We have Pelipper on the VR because it's rain is not only usable, but is also unique in what it can do.

regidrago

Garchomp and Cresselia had the same usage, and then Pokemon like Mew, Iron Crown, Lycanroc, and Morgrem pulled off a win in UUbers PL. I personally dont think a Pokemon should be ranked for the ridiculously small success, especially considering the other unviable stuff brought, but that's just me!

Notice how I didn't say anything about actually wanting it on the VR, and how I said that it was nominated by people asides from me. During the voting, I put it as unranked cause I was given no reason to believe it actually had a real reason for use within this meta. If I recall correctly, it was BigFatMantis who thought that Regidrago had a niche. I'm not saying I disagree with your thoughts, I'm just trying to provide an explanation for what happened.

yapfest

I think Draco Meteor's slight inaccuracy can be ignored considering bwe play Ubers UU. Zacian's Play Rough, Deoxys' Psycho Boost, and Chi-Yu's Fire Blast are all moves from A tier Pokemon constantly used for revenge killing. Tera and Substitute are definitely factors, but I'd say they're just factors that the majority of speed control has to face, I'd say Latios's ability to threaten so many things is still very worth it. While Latios can't constantly switch into Psychic, the offensive teams shouldn't be giving Landorus like 5 opportunities to come in, only exceptions are HO teams that want to use Calm Mind Latios anyway. I think losing momentum bar pivots is another flaw in speed control rather than just Latios, Landorus can thud into a Moltres or Mandibuzz, Urshifu-R into Giratina, and Chi-Yu/Landorus have to often hard switch after picking off a Pokemon, giving free turns. I think Trick can be okay by the time Latios covers for their speed control, especially since the Arceus formes shouldn't sweep when given a free turn. Tera Steel CM Latios can't break those but its a CM Pokemon that can 1v1 CM Arceus and Recovery helps it outlast Pokemon like Magearna, Solgaleo, and the Landorus it always checks. I can get the Zacian match up is far less than great, If you're Tera Dragon, the chip can be from hitting Molt with Wild Charge or taking 2 layers of spikes if its Lum. I do think Tricking Zacian is also viable, as thats similar to removing the threat. I definitely don't think it belongs with the rest of the B-tier Pokemon at least, as many of them have far less defined niches and less useful instances.

I acknowledge that a lot of our top metagame staples have moves that aren't 100% accurate and that it's not fair to hate on one Pokemon for its accuracy issues while ignoring others. That said, that is not my intention here. Zacian, Deoxys, and Chi-Yu are all still ranked in A tier despite their accuracy issues, because the outcome, should their moves hit, is so incredibly strong. Their weakness when it comes to accuracy is offset by the sheer prowess they wield. Latios however, must contend with its accuracy issues in addition to its lesser ability to make progress in-game. Substitute point is fair though that move equally fucks over everything. Tera however, is not something that every form of speed control has equal troubles with. Latios in particular has to contend with the fact that Tera Faerie and Tera Steel are incredibly popular Teras on offensive Pokemon, which poses a major problem since Latios almost wants to be treating Psychic like its a coverage move. Psychic-type moves are horrible to lock into in this tier, and Latios' Psychic isn't even that strong. As for the comment about how offense teams shouldn't be giving opportunities for Landorus to come in, I think that this statement is fallible in a number of ways. Good doubles, Lando coming in on a Mag Spike or Volt-Switch, Lando coming in on Arceus-Poison, Volt/Turn pivoting. While yes an offense team should indeed be limiting the number of times any opposing breaker can come in, one of the reasons Landorus is so great is because of the myriad of ways it can come in. 5 times might be a little much, but it is not completely unheard of over the course of a game, if the Landorus-user plays well. When it comes to the point about pivot moves, I think you actually prove my point funnily enough. Both Latios and Scarfshifu struggle due to their lack of power, and rely on pivot moves to deal with their checks. And so it should be of no surprise that they're ranked in the same tier. I'd also argue that Scarf Lando is a B- tier pokemon, right below Latios. As for Chi-yu, I don't think it's at all a fair comparison. For one, Chi-yu doesn't have pivoting moves, nor does it need them. Part of why Chi-yu is so great is because it tears apart standard Mag/Gira cores. Latios on the other hand, is practically forced to click Flip-turn if it doesn't want to be sinking momentum into most steel-types. As for Chi-yu having to often swap out after a KO, yea that's pretty fair. Although I will note though, that Chi-yu's ability to claim KOs is far more potent than Latios', and can deplete an opponent's resources very fast, making up for its occaisonal momentum sinks. As for when Latios tricks away its scarf... I'm not quite sure what you mean by "covers for their speed control", but I still think that it is never the play to click trick, unless its an endgame situation where Trick is truly required to close out the game. Choosing to give up speed control is a very dangerous gambit, that can severely limit your options over the course of a game in dealing with offensive threats. Also I highly disagree with brushing aside the importance of giving Arceus a free turn. Especially in the late game, a free turn can be all that Arceus needs to win. As for getting chip on Zacian, I acknowledge that hazards can do the trick, but sacrificing Moltres in order to chip Zacian into range is a pretty big tradeoff. Tbh, I think this moreso speaks on how problematic Zacian feels right now, but it is still relevant as it pertains to how well Latios is able to perform. All in all, I think that Latios is perfectly suited to B tier, given that it has some solid and unique roles it can fulfill, but needs a decent amount of support in order to reliably perform well.

Ok i'm done for the day I'm fucking exhausted. In combination with my previous post, I feel like I've written a 4 page essay, all in the span of just a few hours.

 

[FishyRoads]

I'm not gonna be repeating what others have said though i've seen a distinct lack of comment on Arceus-Ice's placing, it seems quite low in my opinion, right now, it feels incredible, and firmly 4th best Arc form with both OCM and The Set, and i wouldn't oppose it rising 2 or even 3 tiers from where it was put here.
I also personally disagree with a few rankings on some Pokes that i think should rise quite a bit, notably Mandibuzz Solgaleo and Urshifu-Rapid-Strike though i will not press as none as glaring as Ice

 

[BigFatMantis]

regidrago

Notice how I didn't say anything about actually wanting it on the VR, and how I said that it was nominated by people asides from me. During the voting, I put it as unranked cause I was given no reason to believe it actually had a real reason for use within this meta. If I recall correctly, it was BigFatMantis who thought that Regidrago had a niche. I'm not saying I disagree with your thoughts, I'm just trying to provide an explanation for what happened.

By itself it's not much but when you pair it with another DD like Arceus, you have a decently bulky Scale Shot user with EQ so you can kinda just overwhelm the usual checks with both mons. I'm ok with it being unranked tbh but it did get several uses in UUbersPL, not just one, so it's not like it was a one and done meme (was brought twice to semis too). I think it's ok at C-

 

[LovelyLuna]

Finally free to yap, split the Latios into bits since it was long <3.

Response to Luna.



A big reason why you'd ever use Grasseus is the ground resist, so that you're not pigeonholed into using other methods of checking Landorus, which is why I don't think it's really fair to just completely discard that attribute. Furthermore, Iceus is also weak to stealth rock, and doesn't posses a water resist, which can be pretty relevant during games where Palkia-O or Walking Wake are in play. As for CM Taunt Grasseus, I honeslty don't think it's really at all a viable set really. The only reason you'd be using Grasseus is defensive support. Stuff like, Judgment Twave Recover +1. It's by no means a perfect set of moves, but it's not completely terrible either. Ogerpon and Gouger get absolutely ruined by twave so they have to be careful. Moltres and Tina can eat a twave, but they don't exactly like doing so either, since yellow magic is stupid. I agree that the opportunity cost of using Grasseus over other Arceus formes is pretty great, which is why I'm also not exactly arguing for its use as a central pokemon to a team's structure. If you ever actually use Grasseus, it'll probably be as a last or second-to-last slot because you need a very specific combination of tools that no other Pokemon has. Do I think that teams built around other Arceus formes are generally better? Yea. But that doesn't necessarily make Grasseus and Grasseus teams unviable per se, just a little worse off for the most part. Which is all to say, Grasseus isn't great, but it's still just barely good enough that you can't just write it off as a hardly useable C- Pokemon.

Tbh all I really want to say is that the ground and water resists aren't actually very useful. I usually build with Arceus as the 5th or 6th slot because its so good at patching a team's holes, If I built a team where I needed Arceus-Grass's defensive typing, Its very likely a scrappable team. Arceus is one of the strongest Pokemon in the tier, whether thats DD Poison/Rock, CM Electric/Dark, or The Set Dark/Ice/Rock, its one of the best sweepers and best users of Tera, while having a great defensive profile. Having to use Arceus-Grass which is a much weaker threat just feels really bad and not worth the effort. This is especially because of how easy it is to fit the flyers and Giratina. Sure Giratina can't deal with a Draco Meteor from Walking Wake, but Arceus-Grass similarly takes over 80 from Flamethrower, and other CM Arceus is probably even better at dealing with Palkia-O since Hydro Pump is better to take than Fire Blast. It does well into rain but that's already niche, justifying this Pokemon is very hard when there are so many better choices and I cant see it being much higher than the very bottom.

I acknowledge that a lot of our top metagame staples have moves that aren't 100% accurate and that it's not fair to hate on one Pokemon for its accuracy issues while ignoring others. That said, that is not my intention here. Zacian, Deoxys, and Chi-Yu are all still ranked in A tier despite their accuracy issues, because the outcome, should their moves hit, is so incredibly strong. Their weakness when it comes to accuracy is offset by the sheer prowess they wield. Latios however, must contend with its accuracy issues in addition to its lesser ability to make progress in-game.

I was primarily pointing to the revenge killing aspect, Draco Meteor on a Gouging Fire is the same as Play Rough on a Roaring Moon or Psycho Boost on a Zacian, if you miss its very rough and you've lost a Pokemon, if you hit you get your important revenge kill. I get that they have other appealing aspects, thats why they're better, but I think its a bit unfair to call Latios less reliable as speed control when its gopt the same chances as everything else.

Substitute point is fair though that move equally fucks over everything. Tera however, is not something that every form of speed control has equal troubles with. Latios in particular has to contend with the fact that Tera Faerie and Tera Steel are incredibly popular Teras on offensive Pokemon, which poses a major problem since Latios almost wants to be treating Psychic like its a coverage move. Psychic-type moves are horrible to lock into in this tier, and Latios' Psychic isn't even that strong.

This is very fair, the Teras are biased against Latios, while Chi-Yu and Deoxys don't have to deal with it nearly as much. But also its Luster Purge!! Not important but I need to point it out.

As for the comment about how offense teams shouldn't be giving opportunities for Landorus to come in, I think that this statement is fallible in a number of ways. Good doubles, Lando coming in on a Mag Spike or Volt-Switch, Lando coming in on Arceus-Poison, Volt/Turn pivoting. While yes an offense team should indeed be limiting the number of times any opposing breaker can come in, one of the reasons Landorus is so great is because of the myriad of ways it can come in. 5 times might be a little much, but it is not completely unheard of over the course of a game, if the Landorus-user plays well.

This is moreso if they play better than if they play well Imo. The Landorus player pulling off double switces and coming in on passive Magearna turns is the same as if they read all your Chi-Yu clicks, making the Pokemon feel bad.

When it comes to the point about pivot moves, I think you actually prove my point funnily enough. Both Latios and Scarfshifu struggle due to their lack of power, and rely on pivot moves to deal with their checks. And so it should be of no surprise that they're ranked in the same tier. I'd also argue that Scarf Lando is a B- tier pokemon, right below Latios.

Shifu-Rapid is currently at B+ and you did say thats where you put Latios I guess, I do think its better by a notable margin because of the Trick option and its checks being easier to overwhelm or take advantage of.

As for Chi-yu, I don't think it's at all a fair comparison. For one, Chi-yu doesn't have pivoting moves, nor does it need them. Part of why Chi-yu is so great is because it tears apart standard Mag/Gira cores. Latios on the other hand, is practically forced to click Flip-turn if it doesn't want to be sinking momentum into most steel-types. As for Chi-yu having to often swap out after a KO, yea that's pretty fair. Although I will note though, that Chi-yu's ability to claim KOs is far more potent than Latios', and can deplete an opponent's resources very fast, making up for its occaisonal momentum sinks.

makes sense :3

As for when Latios tricks away its scarf... I'm not quite sure what you mean by "covers for their speed control", but I still think that it is never the play to click trick, unless its an endgame situation where Trick is truly required to close out the game. Choosing to give up speed control is a very dangerous gambit, that can severely limit your options over the course of a game in dealing with offensive threats. Also I highly disagree with brushing aside the importance of giving Arceus a free turn. Especially in the late game, a free turn can be all that Arceus needs to win. As for getting chip on Zacian, I acknowledge that hazards can do the trick, but sacrificing Moltres in order to chip Zacian into range is a pretty big tradeoff. Tbh, I think this moreso speaks on how problematic Zacian feels right now, but it is still relevant as it pertains to how well Latios is able to perform. All in all, I think that Latios is perfectly suited to B tier, given that it has some solid and unique roles it can fulfill, but needs a decent amount of support in order to reliably perform well.

I was in a bit of a rush when I wrote that, but more meant after Latios picks off the Gouging Fire or Zacian, and now shutting down their Magearna is more valuable. Honestly I'd say something like Gouging Fire with a free turn is scarier than Arceus formes, including lategame, Since Giratina doesn't die. Magearna/Solgaleo also have way better longevity than a Moltres trying to handle Gouging Fire.

I get the Zacian stuff, I imagine every Pokemon needs good support but besides that, I think it'd be nice if tiers could be given a short description like this. Makes it a lot easier to pinpoint where a Pokemon goes instead of vibes slotting in how each Pokemon feels like alongside each other. Doesn't have to be a description thats accurate to every Pokemon, where if a Pokemon doesn't match then it doesn't belong there, but just a guideline to what council considered when making the VR.

By itself it's not much but when you pair it with another DD like Arceus, you have a decently bulky Scale Shot user with EQ so you can kinda just overwhelm the usual checks with both mons. I'm ok with it being unranked tbh but it did get several uses in UUbersPL, not just one, so it's not like it was a one and done meme (was brought twice to semis too). I think it's ok at C-

Wish I could see what it does tbh. Players who brought it were confident enough to bring it but its history so far is: Not come in once, let Zacian come in and do 40% to it, clean up on choice locked H-Samurott after Zacian missed a Play Rough. Not actively pushing for it to be Unranked, but just curious about almost every C- Pokemon since I don't see the same vision.

 

[qbking3]

B- to D
Baxcalibur does more than this which isn't saying much but seriously the bipedal bear does nothing and it sitting next to the good version of it is comedy.
B to B+
it's only a single tier change but the difference in quality between B and B+ is pretty big. It has great utility thanks to its typing, it's one of the best pivots in the tier, and Defog lets you run other stuff on Giratina.
B+ to B (took me 4 tries to spell the name right kill me)
I haven't used it more than a few times but from what I've seen, I think this is an instance of very good players using it more than it deserves and it's precieved quality being improved by that.
B to A-
idk what there is to say, it's one of the best defensive pieces in the tier, fairly splashable, and being in the same tier as Lugia is just so very wrong.
B- to B
Regardless of how good sun is, it's always gonna be in the same tier as the setter. (I know you can run sun without it but that's rare enough that it doesn't constitute a whole tier difference)
B to B-
This hurts me I love using this mon (playing against it is a different story) and I've been a big advocate for it for the tier's entire lifespan but it's one of those mons that you build a team around, not a piece of an existing team and the meta is in a spot where Garg bets broken by just so much.
(Rapid Strike) B+ to B
(Single Strike) B to B+
Single Strike better and doesn't have to contest with Palafin.
C+ to B
While Sneasler has a lot of competition in the role of a scarfer, it brings enough to justify using it. It's the fastest Scarfer in the tier (excluding spectier) with enough speed to outrun Regieleki, Switcheroo lets it cripple walls, and it has just enough power to keep up with the insane bulk in the tier.
D to C-
It beat Imperial that one time which is funny enough for me to value it a bit. Jokes aside, it does something which is enough to get shitmons on the vr apparently and I think double dipping on dragon dancers with both Bax and Gouging can work.

 

[BigFatMantis]

B- to D
Baxcalibur does more than this which isn't saying much but seriously the bipedal bear does nothing and it sitting next to the good version of it is comedy.
B to B+
it's only a single tier change but the difference in quality between B and B+ is pretty big. It has great utility thanks to its typing, it's one of the best pivots in the tier, and Defog lets you run other stuff on Giratina.
B+ to B (took me 4 tries to spell the name right kill me)
I haven't used it more than a few times but from what I've seen, I think this is an instance of very good players using it more than it deserves and it's precieved quality being improved by that.
B to A-
idk what there is to say, it's one of the best defensive pieces in the tier, fairly splashable, and being in the same tier as Lugia is just so very wrong.
B- to B
Regardless of how good sun is, it's always gonna be in the same tier as the setter. (I know you can run sun without it but that's rare enough that it doesn't constitute a whole tier difference)
B to B-
This hurts me I love using this mon (playing against it is a different story) and I've been a big advocate for it for the tier's entire lifespan but it's one of those mons that you build a team around, not a piece of an existing team and the meta is in a spot where Garg bets broken by just so much.
(Rapid Strike) B+ to B
(Single Strike) B to B+
Single Strike better and doesn't have to contest with Palafin.
C+ to B
While Sneasler has a lot of competition in the role of a scarfer, it brings enough to justify using it. It's the fastest Scarfer in the tier (excluding spectier) with enough speed to outrun Regieleki, Switcheroo lets it cripple walls, and it has just enough power to keep up with the insane bulk in the tier.
D to C-
It beat Imperial that one time which is funny enough for me to value it a bit. Jokes aside, it does something which is enough to get shitmons on the vr apparently and I think double dipping on dragon dancers with both Bax and Gouging can work.

Was this an old post from late 2023 (real question)

 

[qbking3]

Was this an old post from late 2023 (real question)

no

 

[Finchely]

not commenting means I agree

B- to D
Baxcalibur does more than this which isn't saying much but seriously the bipedal bear does nothing and it sitting next to the good version of it is comedy.

No I think that Bluna does more than Baxcalibur honestly. It has pretty good physical bulk which can let it trade with common DD sweepers, and can be a little scary after a CM if you somehow manage to grab one. B- is a little high imo, but C+ sounds just right to me.

B+ to B (took me 4 tries to spell the name right kill me)
I haven't used it more than a few times but from what I've seen, I think this is an instance of very good players using it more than it deserves and it's precieved quality being improved by that.

Even though it has very middling stats, ceaseless edge is one hell of a drug. Unblockable Spikes are really just that strong. It means your only way of preventing spikes from going up is to keep offensive pressure up, which can be surprisingly difficult given hamurott's barely-useable defensive profile. Water/Dark crucially let's it get free spikes on Chi-yu or a Surging/Wicked locked Ursh. Ceaseless also rips out a decent portion of Giratina - the current most common defogger -'s health. Giratina is by all means capable of taking on hamurott if it needs to, but really does not prefer to do so.

B to A-
idk what there is to say, it's one of the best defensive pieces in the tier, fairly splashable, and being in the same tier as Lugia is just so very wrong.

This mon fell off quite a while ago. No LandoT means that half its job is gone, and it was never great at checking DD sweepers anyways. It also has the unfortunate trait of being a fire-resist that absolutely crumples to Chi-Yu, unless you're using AV (bad set in uubers), or SpD (loses to the physical mons you're supposed to check). It's also a god-awful momentum sink if the opponent has Palkia-O. Alomomola's glory days were when every team had LandoT, and now that its gone, it's really just falling off fast. Check out the PL usage stats or replays and you can just easily see how unforgiving the current meta is to it.

B- to B
Regardless of how good sun is, it's always gonna be in the same tier as the setter. (I know you can run sun without it but that's rare enough that it doesn't constitute a whole tier difference)

Ftr I voted them both the same tier. That said, I think they're both B- due to Sun's position as a bit of a matchup fish that still must be properly respected.

(Rapid Strike) B+ to B
(Single Strike) B to B+
Single Strike better and doesn't have to contest with Palafin.

Palafin isn't actually much of a contest anymore. getting an activation turn is not easy in this meta, and the extra fighting typing is rather useful at times. Surging Strikes being a strong move w/out recoil is also a plus. Single Strike's issues lie in the fact that Faerie is just such a popular Tera for boost sweepers, and is also the native type of arguably the best cleaner in the tier. Sure you can terrorize Giratina with Single Strike, but Tina can also pop Tera Faerie asw, or just decide to eat a wicked blow in order to burn your speed control.

C+ to B
While Sneasler has a lot of competition in the role of a scarfer, it brings enough to justify using it. It's the fastest Scarfer in the tier (excluding spectier) with enough speed to outrun Regieleki, Switcheroo lets it cripple walls, and it has just enough power to keep up with the insane bulk in the tier.

It's useable as a scarfer but just really sucks. It is the fastest scarfer, but that extra speed rarely comes in handy. Regieleki isn't common, and neither really is sun. DD Gouger is bulky enough to eat any of Sneasler's moves, and so is Tera Rmoon if its at full. DD Poisonceus also completely blanks you. The best thing it does is outrun scarf chi-yu really. But even then, it can never actually afford to click its stabs most of the time, because Giratina and Arceus-Poison are S rank mons, meanwhile Landorus is sitting at A+. It simply just cannot force progress fast enough, and is not much more than a Uturn bot hoping for poison touch procs. You say that it has just enough power, but I'm really inclined to disagree. As a speed control, it very often needs to cash out a Tera Fighting in order to get the kills on pokemon it doesn't hit supereffectively, which can be a major price to pay especially if they just swap to their fighting resist. And when it comes to switcheroo, it really shouldn't be a move you click at all unless its an endgame where switcheroo is a must-click. Unless you're using double scarf, losing your speed control early game or even mid game can be completely devastating. Especially with how potent Zacian is right now, every team short of Stall or HO needs a way of reliably revenging Zacian. Sneasler is C+ bc it's certainly useable and can occaisonally do things, but it's really just not it most of the time.

D to C-
It beat Imperial that one time which is funny enough for me to value it a bit. Jokes aside, it does something which is enough to get shitmons on the vr apparently and I think double dipping on dragon dancers with both Bax and Gouging can work.

Sure w/e ig. Nomming something to C- is really pointless imo but if it makes you so happy I'll do it just for you <3

 

[qbking3]

not commenting means I agree


No I think that Bluna does more than Baxcalibur honestly. It has pretty good physical bulk which can let it trade with common DD sweepers, and can be a little scary after a CM if you somehow manage to grab one. B- is a little high imo, but C+ sounds just right to me.

Even though it has very middling stats, ceaseless edge is one hell of a drug. Unblockable Spikes are really just that strong. It means your only way of preventing spikes from going up is to keep offensive pressure up, which can be surprisingly difficult given hamurott's barely-useable defensive profile. Water/Dark crucially let's it get free spikes on Chi-yu or a Surging/Wicked locked Ursh. Ceaseless also rips out a decent portion of Giratina - the current most common defogger -'s health. Giratina is by all means capable of taking on hamurott if it needs to, but really does not prefer to do so.

This mon fell off quite a while ago. No LandoT means that half its job is gone, and it was never great at checking DD sweepers anyways. It also has the unfortunate trait of being a fire-resist that absolutely crumples to Chi-Yu, unless you're using AV (bad set in uubers), or SpD (loses to the physical mons you're supposed to check). It's also a god-awful momentum sink if the opponent has Palkia-O. Alomomola's glory days were when every team had LandoT, and now that its gone, it's really just falling off fast. Check out the PL usage stats or replays and you can just easily see how unforgiving the current meta is to it.

Ftr I voted them both the same tier. That said, I think they're both B- due to Sun's position as a bit of a matchup fish that still must be properly respected.

Palafin isn't actually much of a contest anymore. getting an activation turn is not easy in this meta, and the extra fighting typing is rather useful at times. Surging Strikes being a strong move w/out recoil is also a plus. Single Strike's issues lie in the fact that Faerie is just such a popular Tera for boost sweepers, and is also the native type of arguably the best cleaner in the tier. Sure you can terrorize Giratina with Single Strike, but Tina can also pop Tera Faerie asw, or just decide to eat a wicked blow in order to burn your speed control.

It's useable as a scarfer but just really sucks. It is the fastest scarfer, but that extra speed rarely comes in handy. Regieleki isn't common, and neither really is sun. DD Gouger is bulky enough to eat any of Sneasler's moves, and so is Tera Rmoon if its at full. DD Poisonceus also completely blanks you. The best thing it does is outrun scarf chi-yu really. But even then, it can never actually afford to click its stabs most of the time, because Giratina and Arceus-Poison are S rank mons, meanwhile Landorus is sitting at A+. It simply just cannot force progress fast enough, and is not much more than a Uturn bot hoping for poison touch procs. You say that it has just enough power, but I'm really inclined to disagree. As a speed control, it very often needs to cash out a Tera Fighting in order to get the kills on pokemon it doesn't hit supereffectively, which can be a major price to pay especially if they just swap to their fighting resist. And when it comes to switcheroo, it really shouldn't be a move you click at all unless its an endgame where switcheroo is a must-click. Unless you're using double scarf, losing your speed control early game or even mid game can be completely devastating. Especially with how potent Zacian is right now, every team short of Stall or HO needs a way of reliably revenging Zacian. Sneasler is C+ bc it's certainly useable and can occaisonally do things, but it's really just not it most of the time.

Sure w/e ig. Nomming something to C- is really pointless imo but if it makes you so happy I'll do it just for you <3

For usrsaluna, I think that’s fair putting it all the way at D is excessive but it’s one of those mons like all the others in the C range where it’s use case is much more niche than its ranking shows.

For samourott, I agree with everything you say I just that that B- is the slot it fits into. I can go either way I just think it’s a bit overated.

I’m not gonna defend my mola take I was smoking something.

Walking wake

For urshifu, I think I just presented my arguement wrong or rather I didn’t really explain much. It doesn’t fuffil the same role as Palafin but you’re never throwing both waters on a team together. I think of Rapid Strike as a fighting type with strong water attacks not a strong water type with fighting attacks if that makes sense. If I’m looking specifically for a strong physical water type then I take palafin. If I want a strong fighting type, I would run the urshifu that blows us giratina. There are teams that want both, but I think both palafin and single strike do their job better.

For sneasler, I agree that I overated it in hindsight. Probably B- still imo but C+ is pretty for ig.

The Bax nomination really doesn’t make a difference but looking at the mons in C-, it fits right in.

 

[FishyRoads]

It's been a bit and i think i have a few good early noms to put out
from B- to B+/A-
This thing is very good right now, webs do incredibly well into the great majority of ideas that get better with the Zacian ban, and from experience, demolishes most teams i've seen around while not exactly getting 6-0d by teams that can play against it, i expect it to be a massive threat coming into UUFPL and UMBD

from B to A
Turns out that when you remove a tier's main Fairy, the Fighting Dark gets very good.
Okay theres more to this, with the leaving of Zacian, all 3 of Arceus Dark, Giratina and Sticky Web rise up in popularity, Urshifu Dark is a great benefactor of all 3, it handles DArc extremely well, it is a Fighting type that threatens Giratina and it is a very good abuser of the web (was even before the Zacian ban).

from B+ to A
Damn this thing feels good
I did not expect to like spec as much as i am right now, it's fast, it's strong, it's a great user of tera, it has great typing, it can stallbreak, it can be speed control, it generally fits perfectly in most offensive structutes, the Zacian ban makes it better due to removing one of the key things that limited it, making webs (where Spectrier fits very well) better and for the virtue of Spectrier beign a Special attacker that matches up well into Arceus-Dark, which has already seen a rise in popularity.

 

[Frito]

New VR Update time!! The voting sheet for this slate can be found here courtesy of the lovely Celeste! Enjoy discussing everyone!!

Rises:
Mewtwo shifts from New to S-
Roaring Moon shifts from B+ to A+
Spectrier shifts from B+ to A+
Arceus-Ice shifts from B to A
Samurott-Hisui shifts from B+ to A
Terapagos shifts from B+ to A-
Araquanid shifts from B- to B+
Garganacl shifts from B to B+
Gholdengo shifts from B to B+
Lugia shifts from B to B+
Palafin shifts from B to B+
Urshifu shifts from B to B+
Annihilape shifts from B- to B
Cyclizar shifts from C+ to B
Grimmsnarl shifts from New to B
Zamazenta-Crowned shifts from C+ to B
Corviknight shifts from C+ to B-
Gothitelle shifts from C+ to B-
Dragonite shifts from C- to C+
Primarina shifts from UR to C+
Raging Bolt shifts from UR to C+
Volcarona shifts from C to C+
Galvantula shifts from C- to C
Great Tusk shifts from C- to C
Lokix shifts from UR to C
Iron Valiant shifts from UR to C-
Moltres-Galar shifts from UR to C-
Smeargle shifts from UR to C-

Drops:
Arceus-Dark shifts from A+ to A
Magearna shifts from A+ to A
Deoxys shifts from A to A-
Gouging Fire shifts from A to A-
Chi-Yu shifts from A- to B+
Iron Bundle shifts from A- to B+
Ogerpon-Hearthflame shifts from B+ to B
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike shifts from B+ to B
Arceus-Rock shifts from B to B-
Iron Treads shifts from B+ to B-
Solgaleo shifts from B to B-
Alomomola shifts from B to C+
Latios shifts from B to C+
Moltres shifts from B+ to C+
Ninetales shifts from B to C+
Regieleki shifts from B to C+
Tyranitar shifts from B- to C+
Ursaluna-BloodMoon shifts from B- to C+
Arceus-Grass shifts from C+ to C
Mimikyu shifts from C+ to C
Quagsire shifts from B- to C
Reshiram shifts from B- to C
Rillaboom shifts from C+ to C
Sneasler shifts from C+ to C
Ursaluna shifts from B- to C
Walking Wake shifts from B- to C
Dragapult shifts from C to C-
Gastrodon shifts from C to C-
Ogerpon shifts from C to C-
Slowking-Galar shifts from C to C-
Torkoal shifts from C+ to C-
Dialga shifts from C- to D
Palkia shifts from C to D
Bronzong shifts from C to UR
Clefable shifts from C to UR
Latias shifts from C- to UR
Pecharunt shifts from C to UR
Pelipper shifts from C to UR
Regidrago shifts from C- to UR

 

[OceanicGamer]

Lokix shifts from UR to C

THATS MY GOAT!!!

 

[ilikeeatingcrayons]

Arceus-Ice shifts from B to A

The goat had risen

 

[Bazingatron]

Drops:

Gouging Fire shifts from A to A-

Latios shifts from B to C+

Ninetales shifts from B to C+

Walking Wake shifts from B- to C

Torkoal shifts from C+ to C-

Latias shifts from C- to UR

This is so sad Hatterene left and it took down the entirety of sun

 

[Finchely]

This is so sad Hatterene left and it took down the entirety of sun

Yeah hat being gone isn't ideal. That said, Zacian being gone means that great tusk is marginally easier to run, which can help a lot vs physical arc-poison and arc-electric.

 

[Celeste]

I feel like yapping but don't know what to yap about, so i figured i'd give my thoughts on some of the more interesting VR shifts that happened here for fun :D

Roaring Moon shifts from B+ to A+
Spectrier shifts from B+ to A+
Samurott-Hisui shifts from B+ to A
Gouging Fire shifts from A to A-

These past few meta changes have changed a lot about what H/O looks like, with some very expected rises but a not very expected drop, and honestly i agree with this *mostly*. Roaring Moon and Spectrier feel like the most broken aspects of the tier right now, with Spectrier's speed tier and the effectiveness of its Life Orb tera Fairy set being incredibly punishing of even one wrong turn, often ending games on its own by heavily punishing even the slightest misplay into it, and is very deserving of A+ in that regard. Roaring Moon is similar, however what it lacks in single set effectiveness (as it is possible to make direct counterplay for some sets, such as Palafin -> tera ground, tera on Giratina, status, etc) it makes up for in the sheer number of sets it can run. While I dont think this versatility is nearly at the broken level Zacian was at, it is definitely hard to figure out exactly what the RM set will be on preview, and we've seen this impact games in all of UUFPL, UMBD, and SUUberbowl in the past few weeks. Samurott rising also makes sense as it has established itself as one of the best H/O leads, but also a strong scarfer or boots pivot on non H/O teams, providing valuable Knock Off and Spikes.

Gouging is an interesting one though, I don't know how strongly I agree with it dropping, but I can really see the argument. In a hazard prominent metagame its Rocks weakness is felt very strongly, and it is much less effective and having long term use if it gets phased out compared to other H/O staples such as Roaring Moon or Spectrier, where RMs speed and access to Knock and Spectrier's raw power tend to let them be a bit more useful, especially as alternate phasers such as Mimikyu and Terapagos are gaining traction on H/O themselves. Its still good, but I no longer think it is nearly as powerful as it was before, purely on the merit of things around it are getting stronger and better at managing their checks, while Gouging is sticking to the same toolset, and that toolset is a bit harder to make nearly as effective (keep in mind effective enough to still prob be a top 10 mon in the tier, just not as great imo)

Arceus-Ice shifts from B to A
Garganacl shifts from B to B+

WOO! Some goats rising, could def argue garg to be A- because how how impactful it is in so many matchups ive found but overall recognized improvement. Arc Ice i think has without a doubt proven to be the 4th best Arc form just on the merit of how excellent its offensive typing is, and how well it uses tera to steamroll through checks once it gets going. It was good before and just seems to get better and better, with some cool changes you can make to its spreads to slightly change its role.

Arceus-Dark shifts from A+ to A
Magearna shifts from A+ to A
Deoxys shifts from A to A-

Finally, some drops. And tbh I agree with all of these too, Darkceus is still strong but its definitely not the dominating force we expected coming out of Zac meta, and while it does have some success the meta seems to get more hostile to it as things go on, with even Mewtwo posing a big threat due to the unpredictability of how it can use tera. Chosing to go Dark > one of the other types feels a lot more challenging right now, with the raw offensive power of Poison, Elec, and arguably Ice. Magearna is still good, but I think that its grown a bit worse in the face of taunt being more useable on some things, and more setup sweepers giving it a lot of grief since it just doesnt do too much in the face of most of them. Deoxys is still good but faces more issues in the builder with the rise of HO and now Mewtwo with its speed and powerful Psychic stab with good coverage.

Overall some good shifts that i think overall represent the new direction of the meta well, I think some things like Grimmsnarl and Terapagos are underrated, but there is a lot of changes happening right now so a lot of things will fly under the radar as things settle down. Excited to see where this goes!

 

[Celeste]

Now that we've had some time to sit with these and tours are slowly coming to an end i wanted to pop in some of my more significant VR shift suggestions

Arc Electric (A+) + Arceus Dark (A) -> A-
Both objectively kind of weaker arcs then the two currently most splashable and threatening arcs right now (poison/Ice), i would say dark should g to B+ but thats probably too drastic

Arceus Ice A -> A+
Easily solidified it itself as one of the best mons in the meta right now across a lot of playstyles, higher risk defensively then the two I just mentioned but the offensive payout is more then worth it.

Dragonite C+ -> B+
Really excellent mon on H/O right now that has the benefit of being spikes and webs immune, can output a lot of damage on its own with a few interesting sets and being able to out priority things trying to chip it off is a super powerful tool for a speed booster such as itself. Arguably gouging tier in terms of how much I think it should be considered on any given H/O team.

Moltres, Gastrodon, Torkoal -> Unranked
none of these are remotely good in the meta rn, moltres no longer really checks anything, gastro feels like a wasted slot without palkia being as strong as we thought it would be early on, and sun is very much dead, but torkoal definately has no real niche anymore considering ninetales is like barely holding on

 

[Finchely]

Have my thoughts on your noms and also some of my own.

Now that we've had some time to sit with these and tours are slowly coming to an end i wanted to pop in some of my more significant VR shift suggestions

Arc Electric (A+) + Arceus Dark (A) -> A-
Both objectively kind of weaker arcs then the two currently most splashable and threatening arcs right now (poison/Ice), i would say dark should g to B+ but thats probably too drastic

Arceus Ice A -> A+
Easily solidified it itself as one of the best mons in the meta right now across a lot of playstyles, higher risk defensively then the two I just mentioned but the offensive payout is more then worth it.

Dragonite C+ -> B+
Really excellent mon on H/O right now that has the benefit of being spikes and webs immune, can output a lot of damage on its own with a few interesting sets and being able to out priority things trying to chip it off is a super powerful tool for a speed booster such as itself. Arguably gouging tier in terms of how much I think it should be considered on any given H/O team.

Moltres, Gastrodon, Torkoal -> Unranked
none of these are remotely good in the meta rn, moltres no longer really checks anything, gastro feels like a wasted slot without palkia being as strong as we thought it would be early on, and sun is very much dead, but torkoal definately has no real niche anymore considering ninetales is like barely holding on

When it comes to Darc, I think that even B+ is probably warranted given how hostile the metagame is to darc rn. When it comes to the big 3 HOs (hamu spikes, araqwebs, grimmscreens), Darc really has a tough time. And even versus balance teams, I've found that Darc doesn't fare all that well because of how easy spikes are to set with even just scarf Hamu, and also the presence of Nasty Plot Mewtwo tending to screw over most darc sets. Tbh when I look at A-, I think that Deoxys and Terap should drop a tier to B+ asw, but when it comes to Gouger, I don't think that darc can really compare. It's true that they do vastly different things, but when evaluated at how good they are at performing their respective role, gouger is just far more splashable and potent. Gouger is a HO staple for being able to immediately threaten Magearna, and then also threaten to tear apart Giratina as well. Whereas Darc sort of floats around without much potency.

The rest I agree with.

My own noms:

Deoxys (A-) to B+
I've talked about it a little bit in the discord but I think that the metagame is not very great for deo rn. Deoxys is a mon that thrives off of defensive pivots to help it come in safely, due to its nonexistent defensive value. However, defensive pivots are not in an amazing state rn outside of Magearna. Treads has its merits, but cannot be really stated to be all that consistent, and also has mediocre defensive value outside of switching into Magearna. Deoxys also again doesn't have a stellar matchup the top 2 of the 3 big HOs. Hamu can 1v1 Deoxys on lead, and if Deoxys doesn't lead then spikes go up and Deoxys really really suffers cause it loses that many number of times it can click lorb boosted nukes. Araquanid fails to get ohkoed on lead, and webs take away one of the best things Deo has going for it, being that it is a wallbreaker that outspeeds the base 130s. After which, Deo becomes relegated to being a priority bot, of which we have more reliable ones imo. Deo prob has the best matchup into screens cause Grimm is losing light clay t1 and has to decide on whether to take massive damage getting up dual screens or to kill the deo immediately. But I think this is not really good enough of a niche to maintain its position in A- alongside Gouging Fire, which is so much easier to slot onto teams (even BO teams too not necessarily strictly HO), while also being far more consistent and reaching just as high peaks as Deoxys does.

Terapagos (A-) to B+
This is a pretty good mon I think it's great on offense and even certain HO teams, due to how good it is at being a once per game get out of jail free card. That said, the defensive sets are on the more passive side and tend to be vulnurable to disruption in the form of Taunt. Particularly Taunt Spectrier can turn the tables on defensive Terap, since Spect in particular is immune to Tera Starstorm which does still do decent damage. The protox lefties set is also interesting I think but it's kind of fishing for no hamu spikes. If it hasn't been obvious by now, I think that hamu spikes are ridiculously good and kind of defining in the tier atm. Terap isn't bad by any means but again when I hold it up to the standard of how reliably gouger is at its own job, Terap just feels like kind of a step below.

Mimikyu (C) to B+
I think this mon is great. It's really good on HO. When it comes to the get-out-of-jail-free card department, I think it has terap beaten actually. The reason being that Mimikyu is itself both the phazer and also still a sweeper. Mimikyu's piddly base 90 attack might not seem like much, but it really starts to hurt once boosted by a swords dance. Shadow Sneak is also deceptively strong when boosted, and is a legitimate threat to Pokemon such as Spectrier and Mewtwo which HO can struggle with. And lastly being able to use ghost-type curse and die on demand means that mmq almost never fails to keep up momentum for its team. Is it perfect? No. In fact it suffers even more than Terap versus mold breaker users and Icicle-spear users due to not having any bulk. But those are niche options in the metagame anyways, and are capable of being played around as long as the HO user keeps it in mind.

(D) to C
I've seen this thing get used as a HO lead every now and then. And while I don't think it's amazing, it's far from unusable and definitely has its upsides as a lead when compared to other options in the meta. I don't have much to say since I haven't used it yet, but I think it's definitely viable enough that it belongs outside of D rank

(B-) to C+
Mewtwo rising to prominence might make SpD solg worth using again.. maybe. But even with the capability to check mewtwo, the defensive sets have always had the same problems and probably always will. Imo the best set is Knock/Roar/Msun/Teleport, which has some pretty major passivity issues especially versus taunt. It's also just not amazing at dealing with CM arceus in general again due to this passivity. It's also a spdef wall that needs to Tera to deal with Spectrier, which isn't great. Scarf might unironically be the better set, but even this one I think is just useable, and is not quite good enough to justify Solgaleo's placement in B- where you have things that still have to be somewhat of a main consideration in the builder (setup rockceus shenanigans, corv randomly walling your arc-poison). By comparison, Solg is just not something you have to think about much. If you built a team that can mostly handle the rest of the meta, chances are it already has ways of dealing with solg. When looking at C+, I feel like solgaleo fits right in due to how many of the options are still useable but rather just fringe picks that don't often have to be super accounted for.

 

[Finchely]

Got brought up in maincord so i'll make a mini-post about it

glowking (C-) to UR
This thing is just bad. It's never been great and has steadily been on a downwards spiral into nothingness. It's terrible as a special wall as it loses to basically every special attacker in the tier. Chilly reception specs KyuW teams also aren't good anymore cause the meta is too fast-paced for that style, and also Arc-Ice suddenly being popular does 0 favors for specs KyuW trying to click ice beam and blizzard. This mon already was a fraud leading up to the zac ban, and I can't remember a single instance of this Pokemon being seriously since then.

 

[Ultra1080]

Why are base Dialga and Palkia in D Rank? I am surprised that they are that bad.

 

[OceanicGamer]

Why are base Dialga and Palkia in D Rank? I am surprised that they are that bad.

Dialga greatly suffers from being a bulky mon without sustainable recovery, and it's utility moves aren't that great like Giratina who can get away with Rest. It's offenses are pretty bad as well, and if you want an offensive Dragon, just use something like Palkia-Origin or Kyurem-White.

Palkia, I think is kinda underrated as a Choice Scarfer, but I think it's D rank because it's a worse Palkia-Origin all things considered

 

[FishyRoads]

Dialga is completely outclassed by dialga-origin in everything it wants to do, and even then dialga-o is already a fringe pick
I do not think such applies to palkia and believe it should be higher, as it can and does perform as a sticky web threat (with LO) on occasion and can do a honestly middling job as a scarfer
Something something from D to C+, it's pretty niche but it 100% has a job it is fine at
Oh yeah this is replying to this vvv

Why are base Dialga and Palkia in D Rank? I am surprised that they are that bad.

 

[Celeste]

something else on Dia O as to why it specifically is better is because of how the origin form gives you some extra bulk as well as attacking stats, letting it function well as a special tank with some nice phasing opportunities due to being neutral to a lot of common types in the tier. I know that there is a team that some people are using that uses dialga origin as a pseudo offense lead with rocks and dragon tail to slow down a lot of prevalent H/O. Its not amazing at it but it definately has a defined spot due to that imo

 

[OceanicGamer]

Nominating Scizor from UR to C/C+

During my suspect run Scizor was absolutely a core member of my team and contributed to many wins.

Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

This was the set I was using, and Scizor is absolutely amazing to revenge kill threats like Spectrier, Roaring Moon and Landorus. I was using this alongside ESpeed Dragonite, and together they weaken the opponent’s team for each other or another teammate like my own Roaring Moon. Scizor does have bad matchups into Arceus Electric, Gouging Fire and Tera Fire Mewtwo. Despite this, Scizor owns HO squads lacking these Pokémon, and even with these Pokémon they have to play carefully and keep these Pokémon relatively healthy, especially if you have another priority user like Dragonite or Arceus

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fire Mewtwo: 204-240 (57.7 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Electric: 160-188 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Replays of Scizor being the goat
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2387910682-oavnhdsu1ldx2tku174o3m3nmj96kn3pw
(Yeah… I forgot to save all the others sob skull)