Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

I believe that wellspring’s limited defensive answers and ability to easily cripple teams that lack these defensive answers make it unhealthy, which is why I support a ban of it.

If you want to argue why you believe it is balanced, that is perfectly fine, but exaggerating how much fat will thrive should it be removed in order to argue that the main reason it should not be banned is so it can check those types of playstyles, is not the right way to go about things especially when this argument, does not address whether the ogre is balanced or not outside of how it affects bulkier teams.

the banning of this particular pokemon will not result in a metagame infested with slow bulky teams, it is not the single thing keeping them in balance.
 
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olamomalo said:
AV Mola would have nothing stopping its pivot. That alone is reason to never ban wellspring. That Pokémon is actually skill-less gameplay.
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Can people stop bringing up fat mons as an excuse to keep wellspring in the tier? You can run breakers like Specs Kyurem if you wanna force progress vs fat. And if Mola turns out to be too broken, just ban it next. Please argue about how Wellspring itself is not broken, not how it is the sole thing keeping some archetypes/mons in check.

olamomalo said:
There are things you can use if you want to slow it down, such as ammoongus , hydrapple, deagonite, kyurem, sinistcha, pecharunt, or more exotic things that are immune to water.
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Amoong is passive and only fits on stall, Hydrapple dislikes play rough and is pretty hard to fit, Dnite and Kyurem dislikes knock and play rough though the former is splashable, Sinistcha is a bit hard to fit and drops to knock, Pecharunt can’t take Tera Water Cudgel well. If you need to use exotic niche mons to check wellspring effectively, that means that the more viable mons can’t check wellspring effectively, which is an argument to ban it.
 
olamomalo said:
AV Mola would have nothing stopping its pivot. That alone is reason to never ban wellspring. That Pokémon is actually skill-less gameplay.
Click to expand...
The reliable Volcanion:
(and before somebody says something along the lines of "Volcanion is bad!!!!", it will absolutely get better in a post waterpon meta).

But you know what you can also do? Punish the mola user switching in, since Pokemon such as kyurem, raging bolt, dragapult, gholdengo, Iron Crown, Pecharunt, Zapdos, Primarina, Hatterene, Garganacl, Deoxys-Speed, Slowking-Galar, Darkrai, Meowscarada, Iron Hands, Rillaboom, Tornadus-Therian, Sinistcha are still in the god damn tier to help with that.
olamomalo said:
I think oger is to balance as ursaluna is to stall. Balance just going to have a bad time. That’s not a bad thing. It just means balance is weak vs oger. There are things you can use if you want to slow it down, such as ammoongus , hydrapple, deagonite, kyurem, sinistcha, pecharunt, or more exotic things that are immune to water.
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Theres a big difference between oger and ursa, ursa has issues against more offensive teams since while it has some bulk, at best its trading into one mon then dying next turn (unless its in TR but TR as a whole is niche, even if its been getting better recently). Waterpon on the other hand, is commonly able to trade very well with offensive teams due to its typing and bulk.
The definition of a healthy balance breaker is something like hydrapple or NP torn, as while they have some leverage into bulkier MU's, they typically have struggles they need to overcome to truly work (hydrapples awkward typing and low speed, NP torn needing LO most of the time which ofc neccesitates hazard removal and its main stab move is 80% accurate). They do very well into balance, but have flaws that hold them back.


The best I've seen for waterpon is that it can't fit every move it wants (still gets by fine with something simply like cudgel, whip, knock turn), its weak to hazard damage (hazard removal is a dime a dozen and it has synthesis to keep itself healthy) and its locked to its item and tera (tera water is still great defensively and offensively, the 1.2x power boost from the mask is great and it still has its evs and moves to mess around with to have insane versatility).
 
ShieldPhoenix said:
If broken checks broken is an effective argument, then we can unban Eternatus and Dialga. With 2 splashable and effective wellspring answers, wellspring will be reasonable to manage, and we don’t care if Eternatus and Dialga fucks up the tier, so long as they answer wellspring.
Click to expand...

I agree that broken checks broken is not a good tiering mantra, but Gouging Fire actually has higher viability than Dialga in Ubers and Ubers UU, and Dialga would probably be less broken than Gouging Fire was in OU due to it lacking the means to be a set-up threat along with Gouging Fire having comparable bulk to it as well as access to Booster Energy all while not having a mostly useless Ability offensively. This is not to say that Dialga wouldn't broken in OU as I believe it very well would be, but you could've used a better example with something more outright broken.
 
olamomalo said:
AV Mola would have nothing stopping its pivot. That alone is reason to never ban wellspring. That Pokémon is actually skill-less gameplay.
Click to expand...
The fact that we are talking about AV Mola like it is going to destroy the meta if Wellspring is gone is completely insane. That dude isn't going to be doing anything against pokemon like Rillaboom, Volcanion, and the other strong breakers in the tier. AV Mola can't even use wish which is literally the only reason you ever use Alomomola. I understand wanting Wogerpon to stay unbanned (since I also believe it isn't broken) but arguing that this would be broken if it leaves is insane.

olamomalo said:
A Pokémon like this is only a problem if you can’t answer defensively or offensively for the same set, without needing like avalugg or scarf dragapult.
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Wait where the hell did these pokemon come from? Neither Avalugg or Scarf Dragapult are viable (unless I am missing something in which case please share the tech lmao).
 
all right let's go ahead and redirect this discussion somewhere more productive since it's going in a direction it shouldn't be. 658Greninja has made some excellent points about waterpon's unhealthiness in the current meta and how untenable the so-called traditional counterplay is, certainly better than i could've done, so i'm going to attack waterpon from a different angle and ask: what does waterpon actually do for the meta that couldn't be replaced by something else? we have plenty of fatbreakers and offensive pivots and setup sweepers, and blocking mola's flip turn is a role that can easily be filled by volcanion (which is currently in the top half of the vr, higher than multiple actual ou mons, and would very likely rise in a waterponless environment). not that it'd be a defense of the mon if there was or a valid justification for a ban if there wasn't, but is there any truly irreplaceable function of waterpon?
 
I promised a survey after OLT, but we will probably wait a few more weeks with SCL around the corner and no strong consensus currently existing. I do not feel strong motivation to suspect anything at this exact moment, but that can change and (qualified) community input does matter, too.
Y47dM0g_d.webp

shoutout everyone, but ima, for keeping the chain alive, too
 
I would like to briefly add that (to my knowledge) tiering decisions don't actually consider the position of 'if we ban X then Y will be broken!' and this is directly addressed in tiering policy. So bringing this point up won't bear much fruit I feel.

In terms of woger itself I'm not sure. I agree with all the points raised about how effective it is as punching holes in teams, and I do think there's something to be said about the power level of a Pokémon whose counterplay has always been to 'just don't let it come in and keep up rocks' since nothing really switches into woger consistently over the course of a game (the specifics of why have already been covered by previous users in this thread so I won't repeat those points) which is why it's so effective into slower teams. Though the rise of torn-t to ou has atleast added another tool to the box when dealing with it (before woger teras to live the hurricane and 2 shots the whole team anyway haha)

On the other hand, I would say woger goes from 'crazy strong' to just 'strong' against more offensive teams who can consistently threaten to kill or trade into it due to the greater frequency of high speed tiers, fat trading guys, and priority carried by offense. Not to mention how much more easily offense teams can keep hazards up, since you can never give a well positioned offense a free turn by removing, Vs fat teams who not only provide more chances to remove, but also more opportunities for woger to switch in on fatter guys with it's great typing and decent bulk.

And given the prevalence + diversity of offense this gen (though I will admit I don't know how much the archetype use rates have changed over time, and only have my own ladder experience to go off) you could make the argument that woger isn't that big of an issue to deal with when you're using the most common archetypes in the tier.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
all right let's go ahead and redirect this discussion somewhere more productive since it's going in a direction it shouldn't be. 658Greninja has made some excellent points about waterpon's unhealthiness in the current meta and how untenable the so-called traditional counterplay is, certainly better than i could've done, so i'm going to attack waterpon from a different angle and ask: what does waterpon actually do for the meta that couldn't be replaced by something else? we have plenty of fatbreakers and offensive pivots and setup sweepers, and blocking mola's flip turn is a role that can easily be filled by volcanion (which is currently in the top half of the vr, higher than multiple actual ou mons, and would very likely rise in a waterponless environment). not that it'd be a defense of the mon if there was or a valid justification for a ban if there wasn't, but is there any truly irreplaceable function of waterpon?
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Honestly, I have no idea if there is an irreplaceable function Wogerpon has but I can talk about the 2 pokemon I think would be really good in ou with it gone (which would probably help explain the role this pokemon has in ou at the moment).

One of these pokemon is Volcanion as we have already talked about. It also has water absorb which allows it to fill a similar role but more importantly, it can actually choose what its defensive tera and item it wants to use. It is quite slow compared to Wogerpon but that also means it has more reason to invest in its solid bulk. I am sure Volcanion will be quite good if Wogerpon goes but that is pretty obvious.

The less obviously good pokemon that would show up after Wogerpon is banned is Quaquaval (imo). Wogerpon is one of Quaquaval's worst match ups because Wogerpon is immune to water and also shrugs off Quaquaval's fighting stab. Wogerpon is then able to hit back with (insert grass move here) to completely destroy Quaquaval's hopes and dreams. Quaquaval could tera of course but being tera reliant in this meta is usually a sign that you are a bad pokemon (unless you are Dragonite but that is because of set variety). Quaquaval also has coverage moves like Brave Bird that can beat Wogerpon but it already suffers too much from 4mss without having to use anti Wogerpon coverage and it is already slower anyway. If Wogerpon were to be banned however, I am certain Quaquaval would rise up as the new premier water type breaker. Not only does it get more flexibility with its movepool (and defensive tera since it wants to actually beat Rage Bait Bolt) but it also has much more freedom to spam Aqua Step and eventually outpace the entire meta after 2 turns. Sure, Volcanion exists but it is a much easier pokemon to prepare for than Wogerpon is and it is a lot less immediately threatening on top of that. With Moxie being the cherry on top, I feel like Quaquaval would be quite good with Wogerpon gone.

This is not an argument to keep Wogerpon in the tier in fear that these pokemon would be too threatening nor is it an argument to ban it so that these pokemon can shine. I am just noting a couple pokemon that I believe would greatly improve if a Wogerpon ban ever were to happen.
 
UltraSword said:
Honestly, I have no idea if there is an irreplaceable function Wogerpon has but I can talk about the 2 pokemon I think would be really good in ou with it gone (which would probably help explain the role this pokemon has in ou at the moment).

One of these pokemon is Volcanion as we have already talked about. It also has water absorb which allows it to fill a similar role but more importantly, it can actually choose what its defensive tera and item it wants to use. It is quite slow compared to Wogerpon but that also means it has more reason to invest in its solid bulk. I am sure Volcanion will be quite good if Wogerpon goes but that is pretty obvious.

The less obviously good pokemon that would show up after Wogerpon is banned is Quaquaval (imo). Wogerpon is one of Quaquaval's worst match ups because Wogerpon is immune to water and also shrugs off Quaquaval's fighting stab. Wogerpon is then able to hit back with (insert grass move here) to completely destroy Quaquaval's hopes and dreams. Quaquaval could tera of course but being tera reliant in this meta is usually a sign that you are a bad pokemon (unless you are Dragonite but that is because of set variety). Quaquaval also has coverage moves like Brave Bird that can beat Wogerpon but it already suffers too much from 4mss without having to use anti Wogerpon coverage and it is already slower anyway. If Wogerpon were to be banned however, I am certain Quaquaval would rise up as the new premier water type breaker. Not only does it get more flexibility with its movepool (and defensive tera since it wants to actually beat Rage Bait Bolt) but it also has much more freedom to spam Aqua Step and eventually outpace the entire meta after 2 turns. Sure, Volcanion exists but it is a much easier pokemon to prepare for than Wogerpon is and it is a lot less immediately threatening on top of that. With Moxie being the cherry on top, I feel like Quaquaval would be quite good with Wogerpon gone.

This is not an argument to keep Wogerpon in the tier in fear that these pokemon would be too threatening nor is it an argument to ban it so that these pokemon can shine. I am just noting a couple pokemon that I believe would greatly improve if a Wogerpon ban ever were to happen.
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I disagree about Quaquaval becoming the premier Water-type breaker in OU with Ogerpon-Wellspring banned as she isn't the only reason Quaquaval is rarely used in OU. Yeah, being reliant on Water STAB is not ideal given Wellspring's Water Absorb, but Wogerpon absolutely does not shrug off Quaquaval's Fighting STAB.

252 Atk Quaquaval Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 214-253 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In no universe is this shrugging off Close Combat.

Quaquaval's main problem is that it needs that Speed boost from Aqua Step to become a threat given its low Base Speed, and there are many mons that can handle an unboosted Quaq's coverage or even set-up on it, such as Araquanid, Dragonite, Hydrapple, Pecharunt, Primarina, Sinistcha, Zamazenta, and some other fat OU walls.

Keldeo is a lot harder to switch into, much faster than Quaquaval, and can hit on both ends of the spectrum while commonly carrying priority.

Manaphy boosts much faster than Quaquaval does and has higher Base Speed and Base defenses even if it has lower initial power.

Volcanion is also a lot harder to switch into and also has much better bulk than Quaquaval as well as having trapping sets that can really annoy fat.

I believe it's pretty unjustified to say that Quaquaval would become the premier Water-type breaker given the better options we have available. Quaquaval had low viability in OU even before Ogerpon-Wellspring joined the meta, so I'm unconvinced it'd magically become what you say it will given it was D-rank in the last update to the viability rankings before the Teal Mask release, showing that its problem is not Ogerpon-Wellspring.

Finchinator

Resource Thread 'SV OU Post-HOME Viability Ranking Thread [ Final Update: Post #280 ]'

PEX_VR_BANNER.png

art by ausma | VR concept credit goes to PK Gaming | run by Finchinator​

Welcome to the post-HOME Scarlet and Violet Overused viability rankings!

In this thread, we, as a community, will be ranking every single justifiably usable Pokemon into "tiers" ranking their viability in the metagame. You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are viable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this...
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Quaquaval doesn't mind Wellspring much at all. One Aqua Step prior is all that it needs to start snowballing. If you're looking for the real winner in a post Wellspring world, that list begins and ends with Manaphy. Volcanion also doesn't mind Wellspring as much as it minds hazards and a middling speed tier. Volcanion just can't click Steam Eruption at Team Preview if Wellspring is on the opponent's lineup, but Fire Blast is more than good enough. Ogerpon-Wellspring is definitely a top-tier mon, but I have never considered it oppressive enough to consider a ban. I don't know what "role" it has to have because not everything needs a predefined role to have value. "Super busted breaker" is not an empty niche in SV OU, but it's also table stakes for listing as a top threat. It's part of a ring of 10-12 threats that play whack-a-mole depending on the flavor set of the month the ladder gods create to beat up the other threats in that ring.
 
Ogerpon is in a spot where it feels utterly oppressive in the guessing game (Knock??????????? Cidgal????????????? Play fucking ROugh????????????????), one wrong guess and you eat shit harder than anything. At least with Valiant, once you know its Phys or SPA or mixed you can reliably bring in your big answer for it. Or just roar. But the issue with Oger is that until you know its set, and then know if it'll just heal in your face, its a frustrating game. especially when you eat a potential +2 crit to the face cuz lol

I find it annoying, its not Roaring Moon but it feels distinctly toxic to me in a way that a lot of other mons that are good don't. Dragapult is a mon that has huge variance, that if you don't know its set can punch holes, but it also doesn't have Encore. Or healing. Or knock off. Ogerpon's sheer value per turn can be massive, I really hate to fucking say it but every team i've made recently has had Ogerpon in some compacity simply because it makes playing against Oger itself easier and improves so many matchups for me lol. I feel dirty.
 
:sv/ogerpon:
In the light of mons that will get better if Waterpon leaves, I am surprised no one has mentioned Grasspon yet.
I find Grasspon to be a very interesting pokemon. Its set diversity is immaculate with the free item slot, it has the most threatening embody aspect in speed, can be a huge problem for webs teams and has even found some (although small) use on hstack.
 
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Hon07rial said:
:sv/ogerpon:
In the light of mons that will get better if Waterpon leaves, I am surprised no one has mentioned Grasspon yet.
I find Grasspon to be a very interesting pokemon. Its set diversity is immaculate with the free item slot, it has the most threatening embody aspect in speed, can be a huge problem for webs teams and has even found some (although small) use on hstack.
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isnt this mon's main niche checking Waterpon on balances/ bulky offenses? Why would it get better? I dont think it competes much with Waterpon in the first place.
 
I see Grasspon being used on bootspam hazard stacking balances, since unlike Waterpon, it can hold boots

An example team I saw would be
:sv/gliscor: :sv/ting-lu: :sv/ogerpon: :sv/clefable: :sv/slowking-galar: :sv/walking wake:

However waterpon is usually used on faster paced teams where you won’t feel her hazard weakness as much
So the niche each of them fill are not the same.
Maybe Choice Band Grasspon could rise, but that’s it,
 
olamomalo said:
AV Mola would have nothing stopping its pivot. That alone is reason to never ban wellspring. That Pokémon is actually skill-less gameplay.

I think oger is to balance as ursaluna is to stall. Balance just going to have a bad time. That’s not a bad thing. It just means balance is weak vs oger. There are things you can use if you want to slow it down, such as ammoongus , hydrapple, deagonite, kyurem, sinistcha, pecharunt, or more exotic things that are immune to water.

A Pokémon like this is only a problem if you can’t answer defensively or offensively for the same set, without needing like avalugg or scarf dragapult. That was the gouging fire problem: too fat to Ohko and too threatening to give pivots. Again, for oger, I think this is only getting iffy for the fat trailblaze sets.
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Knock Off and Hazards both exist. AV Mola is far from unkillable (it’s literally 2HKOed by Headlong Rush after 3 spikes). I’m a big fan of AV Mola but this is glaze

ShieldPhoenix said:
What do yall feel about Slither Wing? It matches up really well into tusk and can u-turn on it
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I love defensive Slither Wing. I had a great team with it, I think it looked something like this https://pokepast.es/43a809e1871f3ff8. Being able to switch in on Ogerpon and threaten it out with First Impression is great. Also switches into Darkrai and some other things.
 
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Hello, it’s been a while since I made a post like this, but I had this question for a while. Can my boi, Greninja find its footing in the great pond of SV OU?

:sv/greninja:

Now most of you are familiar with Greninja as a sweeper. With Battle Bond, it can sweep through teams, outspeeding Scarfers and Booster Energy mons like Scarf Dengo or Booster Val. In theory its quite terrifying, but in practice it falls short of only getting one kill at best due to its immensely fragile froggy body being vulnerable to priority. Greninja also faces competition with Valiant, Darkrai, Dragapult, and Deoxys who not only have a greater offensive presence, but utility as well.

I believe Battle Bond isn’t the way of the ninja. Allow me to re-introduce an ORAS classic, Protean Greninja.

Protean Greninja​
:greninja:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick/Grass Knot

Gren functions better as a mixed wallbreaker than a sweeper. Greninja’s physical movepool is great at catching some of its weakest matchups while its special movepool covers a lot of the physically bulky metagame.

Moveset Rundown
Dark Pulse
-Without Dpulse, Greninja would struggle to crack through Gholdengo, Glowking, and Mola.

Ice Beam
-Imagine Kyurem Ice Beam, but its coming from a base 122 speed mon that doesn’t take 25% from rocks. Compared to the other two fast Ice Beam users (Darkrai/Deo), Greninja has STAB on it if it uses it first when its out thanks to Protean. It nails a ton of Ground types, Zapdos, Dragons, AV Torn, and has high odds of 2-shotting Corv. Even without STAB, its still a very strong coverage option in conjunction with its other coverage.

Gunk Shot
-This 120 BP Poison type move is the real meat of Greninja. 95 base attack isn’t mediocre enough to stop this from OHKOing many Fairies (and Wellspring) in the tier, including AV Primarina and AV Hatt who are established checks to Val and Deoxys. It also does a ton to Tera Fairy users like Garganacl and Gholdengo.

Low Kick
-Low Kick serves a couple purposes. OHKOs Kingambit and 2HKOs Blissey/Ting-Lu with the additional Attack EVs added.

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 330-390 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 273-322 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Grass Knot
-If 6-0ing Stall isn’t of your interest, you can always tech Grass Knot which still nails Ting-Lu, but now 2-shots Alomomola with high odds to OHKO Garg after rocks.

Partners

:sv/rillaboom:
Grassy Terrain offsets LO recoil and it provides Greninja wIth Knock Off support and pivoting.

:sv/corviknight:
Can remove hazards or bait in Gholdengo/Zapdos. it can also provide Greninja a safe switch-in with slow U-Turn vs Tusk/Lando/Gliscor.

:sv/slowking_galar:
Glowking is good with any Water/Dark type. Greninja threatens a lot of Glowking’s worst matchups while Glowking can switch into fast Moonblasters like Val or Scarf Enam for Gren. It also provides Future Sight to help Gren break its worst matchup, Toxapex.

:sv/ting_lu: :sv/kingambit:
Greninja is a fake Dark/Ghost resist, so any team with Greninja needs another, bulkier Dark type. These two are great at accompanying this role. Ting-Lu covers Raging Bolt and provides hazard support, aiding Greninja’s wallbreaking abilities. Kingambit enjoys the pressure Greninja inflicts on Lando/Tusk while tanking Sballs for the frog.

:sv/dragapult:
Fairies are tough for Dragapult to crack, especially AV Prima and Tera Fairy Garg. All of those are victims of Greninja’s Gunk Shot. Pult also offers pivoting support, baiting in Dark types and Garganacl.

:sv/raging_bolt: :sv/gholdengo:
Any special attacker greatly appreciate Greninja’s ability to 2-shot Blissey, especially these two. Sometimes Greninja can have trouble with AV Mola and Toxapex, but Raging Bolt threatens both and loves a mon that pressures Ground type. Gholdengo also greatly appreciates Greninja’s ability to pressure Kingambit and Ting-Lu, enabling Nasty Plot and Scarf sets. Bulkier variants provide a safe switch into Zamazenta.

Concerns

One of the main reasons Greninja fell off is because of fierce competition and its vulnerability to priority from Thunderclap to Extreme Speed. None of that changes with this set, it’s just now more optimized to wallbreak. However, another Pokemon already fills that role as a fast mixed attacking wallbreaker.

:sv/deoxys_speed:
With Psycho Boost, Knock Off, Superpower, and an abundance of coverage options, Deoxys-Speed is very difficult to manage defensively. Add to Nasty Plot sets and you got a Pokemon that can capture the energy of pre-nerf Protean Greninja. Its speed tier not only triumphs over speed demons like Dragapult, but also Tusk, Ghold, and Dnite at +1. It even gets Spikes.

However, Greninja might have a few advantages over Deo.

1: Deoxys-S can be checked by AV Hatt and Primarina. Garganacl could also 1v1 mixed Deoxys (NP is a risk though). These are matchups Greninja can muscle through with Gunk Shot and Low Kick/G-Knot for Garg.

2: Its main STAB, Psycho Boost is incredibly beefy even for this generation’s high standards. However it does leave Deo with -2 SpA. In SV OU’s aggressive metagame, this can be taken advantage of with Tera Dnite and other setup sweepers. Psychic is also not the greatest attacking type in a tier full of Dark and Steel types. This results in mixed Deo being pivoted around. Greninja doesn’t need to worry about this. STAB Ice Beam tricks alot of switch-ins. You could argue Protean can be exploited in the same matter, but even if Greninja clicks Ice Beam the first turn its out, most Ice resists are deathly afraid of its three other coverage options.

3: Deoxys-S can one-shot Gambit with Superpower or Focus Blast, but this is a risky play because Gambit could stay in and Sucker Punch. Deo-S could tera, but that’s expending a valuable resource which may not be worth it if the Gambit switches out anyways. Greninja has a natural Sucker Punch resistance, so it could stay in to Low Kick the king more safely.

But what are your thoughts? Is Greninja capable of making a comeback, or is it forever doomed to languish in “shitmon that gets sacked in the video featuring it” tier?
 
658Greninja said:
Hello, it’s been a while since I made a post like this, but I had this question for a while. Can my boi, Greninja find its footing in the great pond of SV OU?

:sv/greninja:

Now most of you are familiar with Greninja as a sweeper. With Battle Bond, it can sweep through teams, outspeeding Scarfers and Booster Energy mons like Scarf Dengo or Booster Val. In theory its quite terrifying, but in practice it falls short of only getting one kill at best due to its immensely fragile froggy body being vulnerable to priority. Greninja also faces competition with Valiant, Darkrai, Dragapult, and Deoxys who not only have a greater offensive presence, but utility as well.

I believe Battle Bond isn’t the way of the ninja. Allow me to re-introduce an ORAS classic, Protean Greninja.

Protean Greninja​
:greninja:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick/Grass Knot

Gren functions better as a mixed wallbreaker than a sweeper. Greninja’s physical movepool is great at catching some of its weakest matchups while its special movepool covers a lot of the physically bulky metagame.

Moveset Rundown
Dark Pulse
-Without Dpulse, Greninja would struggle to crack through Gholdengo, Glowking, and Mola.

Ice Beam
-Imagine Kyurem Ice Beam, but its coming from a base 122 speed mon that doesn’t take 25% from rocks. Compared to the other two fast Ice Beam users (Darkrai/Deo), Greninja has STAB on it if it uses it first when its out thanks to Protean. It nails a ton of Ground types, Zapdos, Dragons, AV Torn, and has high odds of 2-shotting Corv. Even without STAB, its still a very strong coverage option in conjunction with its other coverage.

Gunk Shot
-This 120 BP Poison type move is the real meat of Greninja. 95 base attack isn’t mediocre enough to stop this from OHKOing many Fairies (and Wellspring) in the tier, including AV Primarina and AV Hatt who are established checks to Val and Deoxys. It also does a ton to Tera Fairy users like Garganacl and Gholdengo.

Low Kick
-Low Kick serves a couple purposes. OHKOs Kingambit and 2HKOs Blissey/Ting-Lu with the additional Attack EVs added.

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 330-390 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 273-322 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Grass Knot
-If 6-0ing Stall isn’t of your interest, you can always tech Grass Knot which still nails Ting-Lu, but now 2-shots Alomomola with high odds to OHKO Garg after rocks.

Partners

:sv/rillaboom:
Grassy Terrain offsets LO recoil and it provides Greninja wIth Knock Off support and pivoting.

:sv/corviknight:
Can remove hazards or bait in Gholdengo/Zapdos. it can also provide Greninja a safe switch-in with slow U-Turn vs Tusk/Lando/Gliscor.

:sv/slowking_galar:
Glowking is good with any Water/Dark type. Greninja threatens a lot of Glowking’s worst matchups while Glowking can switch into fast Moonblasters like Val or Scarf Enam for Gren. It also provides Future Sight to help Gren break its worst matchup, Toxapex.

:sv/ting_lu: :sv/kingambit:
Greninja is a fake Dark/Ghost resist, so any team with Greninja needs another, bulkier Dark type. These two are great at accompanying this role. Ting-Lu covers Raging Bolt and provides hazard support, aiding Greninja’s wallbreaking abilities. Kingambit enjoys the pressure Greninja inflicts on Lando/Tusk while tanking Sballs for the frog.

:sv/dragapult:
Fairies are tough for Dragapult to crack, especially AV Prima and Tera Fairy Garg. All of those are victims of Greninja’s Gunk Shot. Pult also offers pivoting support, baiting in Dark types and Garganacl.

:sv/raging_bolt: :sv/gholdengo:
Any special attacker greatly appreciate Greninja’s ability to 2-shot Blissey, especially these two. Sometimes Greninja can have trouble with AV Mola and Toxapex, but Raging Bolt threatens both and loves a mon that pressures Ground type. Gholdengo also greatly appreciates Greninja’s ability to pressure Kingambit and Ting-Lu, enabling Nasty Plot and Scarf sets. Bulkier variants provide a safe switch into Zamazenta.

Concerns

One of the main reasons Greninja fell off is because of fierce competition and its vulnerability to priority from Thunderclap to Extreme Speed. None of that changes with this set, it’s just now more optimized to wallbreak. However, another Pokemon already fills that role as a fast mixed attacking wallbreaker.

:sv/deoxys_speed:
With Psycho Boost, Knock Off, Superpower, and an abundance of coverage options, Deoxys-Speed is very difficult to manage defensively. Add to Nasty Plot sets and you got a Pokemon that can capture the energy of pre-nerf Protean Greninja. Its speed tier not only triumphs over speed demons like Dragapult, but also Tusk, Ghold, and Dnite at +1. It even gets Spikes.

However, Greninja might have a few advantages over Deo.

1: Deoxys-S can be checked by AV Hatt and Primarina. Garganacl could also 1v1 mixed Deoxys (NP is a risk though). These are matchups Greninja can muscle through with Gunk Shot and Low Kick/G-Knot for Garg.

2: Its main STAB, Psycho Boost is incredibly beefy even for this generation’s high standards. However it does leave Deo with -2 SpA. In SV OU’s aggressive metagame, this can be taken advantage of with Tera Dnite and other setup sweepers. Psychic is also not the greatest attacking type in a tier full of Dark and Steel types. This results in mixed Deo being pivoted around. Greninja doesn’t need to worry about this. STAB Ice Beam tricks alot of switch-ins. You could argue Protean can be exploited in the same matter, but even if Greninja clicks Ice Beam the first turn its out, most Ice resists are deathly afraid of its three other coverage options.

3: Deoxys-S can one-shot Gambit with Superpower or Focus Blast, but this is a risky play because Gambit could stay in and Sucker Punch. Deo-S could tera, but that’s expending a valuable resource which may not be worth it if the Gambit switches out anyways. Greninja has a natural Sucker Punch resistance, so it could stay in to Low Kick the king more safely.

But what are your thoughts? Is Greninja capable of making a comeback, or is it forever doomed to languish in “shitmon that gets sacked in the video featuring it” tier?
Click to expand...
Short answer: No
Long answer: Nope


Okay, memes aside, while I can see some use cases for this set, it still struggles immensly with the overall metagame. Sure, you can 2HKO Ting Lu, but thats only if you click Low Kick first, if you don't then ting lu is beating you. Sure, you can click gunk into the fairies, but its not really accurate enough to do so. And you still struggle immensly into most priority moves. So the issue again becomes, why am I using this over other fast frail attackers? Especially since greninja struggles to switch in a lot of the time, with even deoxys have enough bulk and resistances to switch in once in a while. I also think the weaknesses of Deo-S are overstated tbh. While AV Hatt and Primarina 'check' Deoxys, they kinda get bullied in the process. AV Hatt gets its item removed, while primarina gets its AV knocked and then takes a lot of damage. Same with garg, which hates losing its lefties. As for Psycho Boost, while -2 is annoying, typically Deo-S's coverage means it isn't completely free setup. Dnite is a fair point, but also a lot of the Dark and Steels do not like Superpower/Knock at all. Finaly, while Gren has a Sucker Punch resistance, this is only true if it hasn't attacked with Dark Pulse or Low Kick, if it clicks Ice Beam, Gunk Shot or Grass Knot, then its heavily threatened out. I just don't think in a meta where even your offensive pieces have to contribute defensively in some way Gren can really work in, this set also doesn't help check things offensively since its outsped by scarf mons and booster energy mons.
 
I’ve seen Greninja being used with Choice Specs Tera Water Battle Bond on rain teams to attempt to run over offense teams after getting a KO and a Battle Bond boost. Though it’s not like rain is lacking in speed control tools with Barraskewda, Raging Bolt, Overqwil etc
 
658Greninja said:
Hello, it’s been a while since I made a post like this, but I had this question for a while. Can my boi, Greninja find its footing in the great pond of SV OU?

:sv/greninja:

Now most of you are familiar with Greninja as a sweeper. With Battle Bond, it can sweep through teams, outspeeding Scarfers and Booster Energy mons like Scarf Dengo or Booster Val. In theory its quite terrifying, but in practice it falls short of only getting one kill at best due to its immensely fragile froggy body being vulnerable to priority. Greninja also faces competition with Valiant, Darkrai, Dragapult, and Deoxys who not only have a greater offensive presence, but utility as well.

I believe Battle Bond isn’t the way of the ninja. Allow me to re-introduce an ORAS classic, Protean Greninja.

Protean Greninja​
:greninja:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick/Grass Knot

Gren functions better as a mixed wallbreaker than a sweeper. Greninja’s physical movepool is great at catching some of its weakest matchups while its special movepool covers a lot of the physically bulky metagame.

Moveset Rundown
Dark Pulse
-Without Dpulse, Greninja would struggle to crack through Gholdengo, Glowking, and Mola.

Ice Beam
-Imagine Kyurem Ice Beam, but its coming from a base 122 speed mon that doesn’t take 25% from rocks. Compared to the other two fast Ice Beam users (Darkrai/Deo), Greninja has STAB on it if it uses it first when its out thanks to Protean. It nails a ton of Ground types, Zapdos, Dragons, AV Torn, and has high odds of 2-shotting Corv. Even without STAB, its still a very strong coverage option in conjunction with its other coverage.

Gunk Shot
-This 120 BP Poison type move is the real meat of Greninja. 95 base attack isn’t mediocre enough to stop this from OHKOing many Fairies (and Wellspring) in the tier, including AV Primarina and AV Hatt who are established checks to Val and Deoxys. It also does a ton to Tera Fairy users like Garganacl and Gholdengo.

Low Kick
-Low Kick serves a couple purposes. OHKOs Kingambit and 2HKOs Blissey/Ting-Lu with the additional Attack EVs added.

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 330-390 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 273-322 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Grass Knot
-If 6-0ing Stall isn’t of your interest, you can always tech Grass Knot which still nails Ting-Lu, but now 2-shots Alomomola with high odds to OHKO Garg after rocks.

Partners

:sv/rillaboom:
Grassy Terrain offsets LO recoil and it provides Greninja wIth Knock Off support and pivoting.

:sv/corviknight:
Can remove hazards or bait in Gholdengo/Zapdos. it can also provide Greninja a safe switch-in with slow U-Turn vs Tusk/Lando/Gliscor.

:sv/slowking_galar:
Glowking is good with any Water/Dark type. Greninja threatens a lot of Glowking’s worst matchups while Glowking can switch into fast Moonblasters like Val or Scarf Enam for Gren. It also provides Future Sight to help Gren break its worst matchup, Toxapex.

:sv/ting_lu: :sv/kingambit:
Greninja is a fake Dark/Ghost resist, so any team with Greninja needs another, bulkier Dark type. These two are great at accompanying this role. Ting-Lu covers Raging Bolt and provides hazard support, aiding Greninja’s wallbreaking abilities. Kingambit enjoys the pressure Greninja inflicts on Lando/Tusk while tanking Sballs for the frog.

:sv/dragapult:
Fairies are tough for Dragapult to crack, especially AV Prima and Tera Fairy Garg. All of those are victims of Greninja’s Gunk Shot. Pult also offers pivoting support, baiting in Dark types and Garganacl.

:sv/raging_bolt: :sv/gholdengo:
Any special attacker greatly appreciate Greninja’s ability to 2-shot Blissey, especially these two. Sometimes Greninja can have trouble with AV Mola and Toxapex, but Raging Bolt threatens both and loves a mon that pressures Ground type. Gholdengo also greatly appreciates Greninja’s ability to pressure Kingambit and Ting-Lu, enabling Nasty Plot and Scarf sets. Bulkier variants provide a safe switch into Zamazenta.

Concerns

One of the main reasons Greninja fell off is because of fierce competition and its vulnerability to priority from Thunderclap to Extreme Speed. None of that changes with this set, it’s just now more optimized to wallbreak. However, another Pokemon already fills that role as a fast mixed attacking wallbreaker.

:sv/deoxys_speed:
With Psycho Boost, Knock Off, Superpower, and an abundance of coverage options, Deoxys-Speed is very difficult to manage defensively. Add to Nasty Plot sets and you got a Pokemon that can capture the energy of pre-nerf Protean Greninja. Its speed tier not only triumphs over speed demons like Dragapult, but also Tusk, Ghold, and Dnite at +1. It even gets Spikes.

However, Greninja might have a few advantages over Deo.

1: Deoxys-S can be checked by AV Hatt and Primarina. Garganacl could also 1v1 mixed Deoxys (NP is a risk though). These are matchups Greninja can muscle through with Gunk Shot and Low Kick/G-Knot for Garg.

2: Its main STAB, Psycho Boost is incredibly beefy even for this generation’s high standards. However it does leave Deo with -2 SpA. In SV OU’s aggressive metagame, this can be taken advantage of with Tera Dnite and other setup sweepers. Psychic is also not the greatest attacking type in a tier full of Dark and Steel types. This results in mixed Deo being pivoted around. Greninja doesn’t need to worry about this. STAB Ice Beam tricks alot of switch-ins. You could argue Protean can be exploited in the same matter, but even if Greninja clicks Ice Beam the first turn its out, most Ice resists are deathly afraid of its three other coverage options.

3: Deoxys-S can one-shot Gambit with Superpower or Focus Blast, but this is a risky play because Gambit could stay in and Sucker Punch. Deo-S could tera, but that’s expending a valuable resource which may not be worth it if the Gambit switches out anyways. Greninja has a natural Sucker Punch resistance, so it could stay in to Low Kick the king more safely.

But what are your thoughts? Is Greninja capable of making a comeback, or is it forever doomed to languish in “shitmon that gets sacked in the video featuring it” tier?
Click to expand...
Specs on paper seems pretty solid - you have Stronger Ice / Water STAB + U-turn over Darkrai, as well as stronger Poison STAB coverage for Fairies. Main niche over Weav / Meow is probably making no contact. Could see it being pretty solid.
 
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