Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[40kultra]

rare post from me but I have been seeing a lot of discussion about

. as someone that has played a lot during the olt cycles (unfortunately was hardstuck 1700/1800s for most of it buts its whatever) I want to share a few thoughts about this mon.

I honestly don't think this mon is broken and I feel like the meta has done a good job at adapting to waterpon imo. tera grass being used on defense mons like the birds , etc make its less easier for waterpon to freely spam ivy cudgel and give it the potential to be crippled by will o wisp or thunder wave. There is decently reliable checks like Bulky , , , , , that can stop ogerpon from immediately snowballing. I also think with strong priority users like , and speed control options like :tornadus therain: and booster mons like makes revenge killing waterpon a managable. espeically with all the fast scarfers that like to spam U-turn which waterpon doesn't really like to face.

in terms of my personal enjoyment I really like using waterpon. don't get me wrong even though I believe its balanced its still very braindead and forces progress so effortlessly with its spammable stab in 120 power ivy cudgel(with a high crit chance btw) and its versatile coverage and movepool. I enjoy using synthesis waterpon a lot as it increases the longevity of woger in matches where I need her breaking potential for a decent length of time.

here is a team I used most of the time during olt. https://pokepast.es/472cdbbb47d6e814 (shout out marnie). it's a team of these 6 mons:


its a basic Kyurem team, but it also uses knock+sysnthesis pon which I talked about. watepon forcing switchins and knocking items off while having the longevity to be threatening in the late game made it much easier for me. (little off topic but I also enjoy using subtect especially to shit on annoying mons like and with tera ground). this team is also very easy to use so there is that.

with that being said what annoys me most about the wellspring arguments is people are dismissing mons that can decently check wellspring just because there is tech that exist to beat it.

-Dragonite is often cited as a check, but its not a consistent one. It loathes Knock Off and Roost variants can outright lose the 1v1 to Play Rough Wellspring.

Like this statement for example, I dont agree with this at all. yes dragonite can lose to some ogerpon sets that have play rough, doesn't mean its not a reliable check. not all ogerpon sets run play rough. some run encore SD, some run knock U-turn, some run spikes and taunt, some run trailblaze sd. and to be honest Ogerpon in a sense is a pretty telegraphed mon. it's going to be clicking ivy cudgel as its attack like 90% of the time general and it that case dnite is a reliable switch into that. and even if dnite gets knocked and rocks are up, Waterpons lacking play rough isn't going to threaten KOs against dnite, thus giving dnite time to roost and get its health back full. is dnite always going to 100% beat woger? no is it a reliable woger check most of the time though? yes if you ask me.

this applies to other mons as well, yes zama, corv, etc can get worned down by +2 woger if significantly, that doesn't mean they aren't valid initial switch ins or checks. although I do agree with the rest of the post of being a easy progress maker with a lot moves in its arsenal (spikes, trailblaze, taunt, encore, SD, synthesis, knock off, etc and he is right about wogers hazard weakness being exaggerated) however I disagree with the notion that waterpon is too "risky" and hard to scout. as long as you have a proper ivy cudgel switchin(like the dragons, corv, pechas, zamas, even the rillabooms and such) you can scout waterpon without things getting too out of control quickly.

Lastly, i'm not a big fan of people glazing trailblaze like its some super supreme unstoppable snowball, it's really not that good imo. i mean yes ogepron being boosted in speed while spamming SD boosted cudgels sounds super broken and annoying for offense teams to deal with, but the problem is that the sets I have seen being ran are way too greedy, and it ends up having a worst MU into fatter teams. like SD synthesis trailblaze cudgel sounds cool but do you really think you will have the time to set that up in front of a or or any of the top dragons in the tier like for example? probably not if you ask me. you also have a harder time immediately breaking fatter teams and stall since trailblaze is signficiantly weaker than power whip which gives fat waters like plently of time to click haze or poison move and to set up curses and click rest. and iirc don't people run adament on these type of greedy ass sets? initally underspeeding mons like doesn't sound appealing to me but its wtv. that's all I want to post for now this is just late night thoughts.

 

[UltraSword]

rare post from me but I have been seeing a lot of discussion about View attachment 772903. as someone that has played a lot during the olt cycles (unfortunately was hardstuck 1700/1800s for most of it buts its whatever) I want to share a few thoughts about this mon.

I honestly don't think this mon is broken and I feel like the meta has done a good job at adapting to waterpon imo. tera grass being used on defense mons like the birds , etc make its less easier for waterpon to freely spam ivy cudgel and give it the potential to be crippled by will o wisp or thunder wave. There is decently reliable checks like Bulky , , , , , that can stop ogerpon from immediately snowballing. I also think with strong priority users like , and speed control options like :tornadus therain: and booster mons like makes revenge killing waterpon a managable. espeically with all the fast scarfers that like to spam U-turn which waterpon doesn't really like to face.

in terms of my personal enjoyment I really like using waterpon. don't get me wrong even though I believe its balanced its still very braindead and forces progress so effortlessly with its spammable stab in 120 power ivy cudgel(with a high crit chance btw) and its versatile coverage and movepool. I enjoy using synthesis waterpon a lot as it increases the longevity of woger in matches where I need her breaking potential for a decent length of time.

here is a team I used most of the time during olt. https://pokepast.es/472cdbbb47d6e814 (shout out marnie). it's a team of these 6 mons:


its a basic Kyurem team, but it also uses knock+sysnthesis pon which I talked about. watepon forcing switchins and knocking items off while having the longevity to be threatening in the late game made it much easier for me. (little off topic but I also enjoy using subtect especially to shit on annoying mons like and with tera ground). this team is also very easy to use so there is that.

with that being said what annoys me most about the wellspring arguments is people are dismissing mons that can decently check wellspring just because there is tech that exist to beat it.

Like this statement for example, I dont agree with this at all. yes dragonite can lose to some ogerpon sets that have play rough, doesn't mean its not a reliable check. not all ogerpon sets run play rough. some run encore SD, some run knock U-turn, some run spikes and taunt, some run trailblaze sd. and to be honest Ogerpon in a sense is a pretty telegraphed mon. it's going to be clicking ivy cudgel as its attack like 90% of the time general and it that case dnite is a reliable switch into that. and even if dnite gets knocked and rocks are up, Waterpons lacking play rough isn't going to threaten KOs against dnite, thus giving dnite time to roost and get its health back full. is dnite always going to 100% beat woger? no is it a reliable woger check most of the time though? yes if you ask me.

this applies to other mons as well, yes zama, corv, etc can get worned down by +2 woger if significantly, that doesn't mean they aren't valid initial switch ins or checks. although I do agree with the rest of the post of being a easy progress maker with a lot moves in its arsenal (spikes, trailblaze, taunt, encore, SD, synthesis, knock off, etc and he is right about wogers hazard weakness being exaggerated) however I disagree with the notion that waterpon is too "risky" and hard to scout. as long as you have a proper ivy cudgel switchin(like the dragons, corv, pechas, zamas, even the rillabooms and such) you can scout waterpon without things getting too out of control quickly.

Lastly, i'm not a big fan of people glazing trailblaze like its some super supreme unstoppable snowball, it's really not that good imo. i mean yes ogepron being boosted in speed while spamming SD boosted cudgels sounds super broken and annoying for offense teams to deal with, but the problem is that the sets I have seen being ran are way too greedy, and it ends up having a worst MU into fatter teams. like SD synthesis trailblaze cudgel sounds cool but do you really think you will have the time to set that up in front of a or or any of the top dragons in the tier like for example? probably not if you ask me. you also have a harder time immediately breaking fatter teams and stall since trailblaze is signficiantly weaker than power whip which gives fat waters like plently of time to click haze or poison move and to set up curses and click rest. and iirc don't people run adament on these type of greedy ass sets? initally underspeeding mons like doesn't sound appealing to me but its wtv. that's all I want to post for now this is just late night thoughts.

I completely agree with this. To add on to it though, Wogerpon isn't even that strong without an attack boost. For example, take a look at this.

252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 320-380 (86.2 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Now yes, I know that Ivy Cudgel has a higher crit chance and that Great Tusk has 115 hp and 131 defense but the fact that ADAMANT WOGERPON only has an 18% chance to ohko Great Tusk from full with no defensive investment shows that it really needs the swords dance boost. I am not saying that Wogerpon is weak or anything, but it is not like it is so powerful that it breaks the game. This isn't a Dracovish situation. Wogerpon needs proper support if it wants to sweep/wallbreak just like any other good offensive threat. It has a stab combination that is walled by grass (yes, I know Wogerpon is the only OU grass type, but this still applies imo) and dragon types, it doesn't always want to run Play Rough because of 4MSS, and it has a very manageable speed tier (yes, I know Trailblaze exists, but it is a very weak grass move so you are basically sacrificing part of your stab). Wogerpon is very strong, but it is not broken in my opinion.

 

[JackRG]

I completely agree with this. To add on to it though, Wogerpon isn't even that strong without an attack boost. For example, take a look at this.

252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 320-380 (86.2 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Now yes, I know that Ivy Cudgel has a higher crit chance and that Great Tusk has 115 hp and 131 defense but the fact that ADAMANT WOGERPON only has an 18% chance to ohko Great Tusk from full with no defensive investment shows that it really needs the swords dance boost. I am not saying that Wogerpon is weak or anything, but it is not like it is so powerful that it breaks the game. This isn't a Dracovish situation. Wogerpon needs proper support if it wants to sweep/wallbreak just like any other good offensive threat. It has a stab combination that is walled by grass (yes, I know Wogerpon is the only OU grass type, but this still applies imo) and dragon types, it doesn't always want to run Play Rough because of 4MSS, and it has a very manageable speed tier (yes, I know Trailblaze exists, but it is a very weak grass move so you are basically sacrificing part of your stab). Wogerpon is very strong, but it is not broken in my opinion.

imo if you aren't gonna play the metagame don't bother posting. Yes it can't ohko a mon with better physical bulk than lugia, but this scenario is extremely unlikely considering great tusk will obviously be worn down from hazards, and even if it is healthy great tusk's standard sets struggle to threaten it back. Best case scenario it has CC, but this move is extremely hard to fit, and doesn't even come close to OHKOing it even with significant chip.

rare post from me but I have been seeing a lot of discussion about View attachment 772903. as someone that has played a lot during the olt cycles (unfortunately was hardstuck 1700/1800s for most of it buts its whatever) I want to share a few thoughts about this mon.

I honestly don't think this mon is broken and I feel like the meta has done a good job at adapting to waterpon imo. tera grass being used on defense mons like the birds , etc make its less easier for waterpon to freely spam ivy cudgel and give it the potential to be crippled by will o wisp or thunder wave. There is decently reliable checks like Bulky , , , , , that can stop ogerpon from immediately snowballing. I also think with strong priority users like , and speed control options like :tornadus therain: and booster mons like makes revenge killing waterpon a managable. espeically with all the fast scarfers that like to spam U-turn which waterpon doesn't really like to face.


with that being said what annoys me most about the wellspring arguments is people are dismissing mons that can decently check wellspring just because there is tech that exist to beat it.

People dismiss these, because minus hydrapple (assuming physdef), they are all awful checks. Dnite (assuming it has roost in the first place) gets cooked on the switch by knock and play rough (with the former being a great midground into pretty much every "check"), Pech gets knocked once then can't switch into cudgel again, Corv literally dies to +2 tera cudgel, and Zama is tasked with handling a million other things and doesn't even switch into cudgel that well.

Low effort posts overall and I think the dnb crowd needs to make better arguments for why it should stay in the tier

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

People dismiss these, because minus hydrapple (assuming physdef), they are all awful checks. Dnite (assuming it has roost in the first place) gets cooked on the switch by knock and play rough (with the former being a great midground into pretty much every "check"), Pech gets knocked once then can't switch into cudgel again, Corv literally dies to +2 tera cudgel, and Zama is tasked with handling a million other things and doesn't even switch into cudgel that well.

even physdef hydrapple takes over 70 minimum from +2 play rough, and u-turn sets can also do an acceptable level of damage to hydrapple (i'm using the term "acceptable" loosely here because you can just regen but the fact remains that 25-33% is still a pretty ok amount of damage) while waterpon gets to avoid the consequences of leaving a hydrapple alive on the field. this is the problem with most alleged waterpon checks, they either can't switch into knock, can't switch into play rough, get pressured by some utility set, or just die to boosted cudgel anyway. hell, even the stall answers don't like losing their item or being trapped into encore or taunt (which for some fuckshit reason waterpon also gets). the only way to actually go toe-to-toe with waterpon is to out-offense her, which is steadily becoming less and less feasible as new waterpon tech gets discovered, which inexplicably is still happening. this is not a healthy mon

 

[Heatranator]

252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 320-380 (86.2 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Bro really posted a calc of a 115/131 defense pokemon having a chance to get OHKO'd by a physical move and thought this was fine.

Now yes, I know that Ivy Cudgel has a higher crit chance and that Great Tusk has 115 hp and 131 defense but the fact that ADAMANT WOGERPON only has an 18% chance to ohko Great Tusk from full with no defensive investment shows that it really needs the swords dance boost.

Yeah, this is frankly put, a horrible arguement. Showing that calc doesn't prove it needs an SD boost, it just shows (hey, get a bit of chip and now it OHKO's easily).

I am not saying that Wogerpon is weak or anything, but it is not like it is so powerful that it breaks the game. This isn't a Dracovish situation. Wogerpon needs proper support if it wants to sweep/wallbreak just like any other good offensive threat.

Not much is like dracovish, so again, not a good point lmfao. Everything needs support.

t has a stab combination that is walled by grass (yes, I know Wogerpon is the only OU grass type, but this still applies imo) and dragon types, it doesn't always want to run Play Rough because of 4MSS, and it has a very manageable speed tier (yes, I know Trailblaze exists, but it is a very weak grass move so you are basically sacrificing part of your stab).

These are also horrible points. All the grasses don't like taking u-turn besides sinistcha (who doesn't like taking knock off) and hydrapple (still doesn't particularly enjoy u-turn and hates play rough), the dragons don't like taking knock of p-rough, and 110 while not outspeeding everything, is getting the jump on the majority of the meta.

Frankly put, this whole post is so horrible.

Now onto the actual substance.

tera grass being used on defense mons like the birds , etc make its less easier for waterpon to freely spam ivy cudgel and give it the potential to be crippled by will o wisp or thunder wave.

I don't see why you would use tera grass apart from waterpon, they aren't good teras apart from beating it. That shows the centralisation of the mon.

There is decently reliable checks like Bulky , , , , , that can stop ogerpon from immediately snowballing.

Aside from hydrapple (who can be awkward to fit onto teams), all of these stop it from immediately snowballing sure, but not really in even the midgame. Dragonite doesn't like taking knock off, and thus has to spam roosts to make sure it checks it. Pech as jack said gets knocked then can't take cudgel. Corv is the same. Zamazenta meanwhile has to expend its dauntless boost and is tasked with taking on a lot of mons in this meta, so it getting chipped in any sort of way is good.

I dont agree with this at all. yes dragonite can lose to some ogerpon sets that have play rough, doesn't mean its not a reliable check. not all ogerpon sets run play rough. some run encore SD, some run knock U-turn, some run spikes and taunt, some run trailblaze sd. and to be honest Ogerpon in a sense is a pretty telegraphed mon. it's going to be clicking ivy cudgel as its attack like 90% of the time general and it that case dnite is a reliable switch into that. and even if dnite gets knocked and rocks are up, Waterpons lacking play rough isn't going to threaten KOs against dnite, thus giving dnite time to roost and get its health back full. is dnite always going to 100% beat woger? no is it a reliable woger check most of the time though? yes if you ask me.

This whole sentence literally disproves the arguement you are making. Dragonite hates getting its boots knocked off, and thus, has to be forced to spam roost. Because if it doesn't then it takes a butt ton of damage. This isn't even ignoring the fact that after waterpon clicks knock, if it clicks u-turn once after rocks go up, it straight up 2HKO's bulky dnite.

 

[Avira]

I honestly don't think this mon is broken and I feel like the meta has done a good job at adapting to waterpon imo. tera grass being used on defense mons like the birds , etc make its less easier for waterpon to freely spam ivy cudgel and give it the potential to be crippled by will o wisp or thunder wave. There is decently reliable checks like Bulky , , , , , that can stop ogerpon from immediately snowballing. I also think with strong priority users like , and speed control options like :tornadus therain: and booster mons like makes revenge killing waterpon a managable. espeically with all the fast scarfers that like to spam U-turn which waterpon doesn't really like to face.

I'm not on the pro-ban no matter what crowd regarding Ogerpon-Wellspring, but Tera Grass on Moltres and Zapdos comes with quite a big cost given Zapdos is often tasked with checking Scizor, Zamazenta, and Tornadus-Therian, and Moltres is also tasked with checking Scizor and Zamazenta, as well Enamorus and Iron Valiant. Often, if you are forced to blow your Tera, and your opponent hasn't, it's a net negative to you since your opponent can still respond with their own Tera.

Like this statement for example, I dont agree with this at all. yes dragonite can lose to some ogerpon sets that have play rough, doesn't mean its not a reliable check. not all ogerpon sets run play rough. some run encore SD, some run knock U-turn, some run spikes and taunt, some run trailblaze sd. and to be honest Ogerpon in a sense is a pretty telegraphed mon. it's going to be clicking ivy cudgel as its attack like 90% of the time general and it that case dnite is a reliable switch into that. and even if dnite gets knocked and rocks are up, Waterpons lacking play rough isn't going to threaten KOs against dnite, thus giving dnite time to roost and get its health back full. is dnite always going to 100% beat woger? no is it a reliable woger check most of the time though? yes if you ask me.

Players in high ladder don't spam Ivy Cudgel 90% of the time even if it's Ogerpon-Wellspring's most spammable attack as there are clear drawbacks to using it with how many good Water-resists are in the tier. Even max/max defensive Dragonite takes over 50% from Play Rough once Multiscale is broken, so what you described with Dragonite roosting off Play Roughs won't happen without Screens support or if Dragonite already has a boost in Speed and is faster than Ogerpon is. Hydrapple is probably the best long-term switch-in to Ogerpon-Wellspring, but a lot of defensive counterplay is shaky to begin with if your opponent isn't a unga boonga spam Ivy Cudgel clicker.

this applies to other mons as well, yes zama, corv, etc can get worned down by +2 woger if significantly, that doesn't mean they aren't valid initial switch ins or checks. although I do agree with the rest of the post of being a easy progress maker with a lot moves in its arsenal (spikes, trailblaze, taunt, encore, SD, synthesis, knock off, etc and he is right about wogers hazard weakness being exaggerated) however I disagree with the notion that waterpon is too "risky" and hard to scout. as long as you have a proper ivy cudgel switchin(like the dragons, corv, pechas, zamas, even the rillabooms and such) you can scout waterpon without things getting too out of control quickly.

While I don't agree entirely with JackRG about let's say Pecharunt not being a good Waterpon check as Pechas with high defense investment are decent into her as long as you use Recover after taking the initial Knock Off. A lot of the checks you mentioned, such as the dragons, are indeed shaky as they take 85+% minimum from Ivy Cudgel into Play Rough with Dragapult, the only faster one, having a chance of being OHKOed by an unboosted Play Rough. Corviknight is also forced to roost after taking one Ivy Cudgel as otherwise it gets 2HKOed the next time it switches in, which is why it's not a good check to Wellspring. Rillaboom with bulk investment is kind of okay, but still shaky into her due to Power Whip and U-Turn, and Zama is taking a truckload from Ivy Cudgel after it burns its Dauntless Shield boost although it being faster with a very threatening Body Press or Close Combat does limit Wellspring.

Lastly, i'm not a big fan of people glazing trailblaze like its some super supreme unstoppable snowball, it's really not that good imo. i mean yes ogepron being boosted in speed while spamming SD boosted cudgels sounds super broken and annoying for offense teams to deal with, but the problem is that the sets I have seen being ran are way too greedy, and it ends up having a worst MU into fatter teams. like SD synthesis trailblaze cudgel sounds cool but do you really think you will have the time to set that up in front of a or or any of the top dragons in the tier like for example? probably not if you ask me. you also have a harder time immediately breaking fatter teams and stall since trailblaze is signficiantly weaker than power whip which gives fat waters like plently of time to click haze or poison move and to set up curses and click rest. and iirc don't people run adament on these type of greedy ass sets? initally underspeeding mons like doesn't sound appealing to me but its wtv. that's all I want to post for now this is just late night thoughts.

This is something I completely agree with. The Trailblaze set is way overhyped and comes with some huge tradeoffs, and if you actually get swept by this, you just got outplayed plain and simple.

I completely agree with this. To add on to it though, Wogerpon isn't even that strong without an attack boost. For example, take a look at this.

252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 320-380 (86.2 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Now yes, I know that Ivy Cudgel has a higher crit chance and that Great Tusk has 115 hp and 131 defense but the fact that ADAMANT WOGERPON only has an 18% chance to ohko Great Tusk from full with no defensive investment shows that it really needs the swords dance boost. I am not saying that Wogerpon is weak or anything, but it is not like it is so powerful that it breaks the game. This isn't a Dracovish situation. Wogerpon needs proper support if it wants to sweep/wallbreak just like any other good offensive threat. It has a stab combination that is walled by grass (yes, I know Wogerpon is the only OU grass type, but this still applies imo) and dragon types, it doesn't always want to run Play Rough because of 4MSS, and it has a very manageable speed tier (yes, I know Trailblaze exists, but it is a very weak grass move so you are basically sacrificing part of your stab). Wogerpon is very strong, but it is not broken in my opinion.

This entire post is terrible. Anyone can list a calc of a mon with amazing physical bulk taking a supereffective hit, but it doesn't take into account what happens on a game to game basis, which is that Great Tusk is often not doing that much back to Ogerpon-Wellspring without Close Combat, which it may not even have room for, and given how often Great Tusk is tasked with coming out onto the field, it's probably in range of Ivy Cudgel by the time Wellspring is out on the field.

Even Dracovish needed support with taking out Seisimitoad, like kek Trapinch, so it doesn't really say anything to say that Wogerpon needs support if it wants to break. Yes, Ogerpon-Wellspring has a very manageable speed tier, but that and Trailblaze being weak are pretty much the only points in your post that aren't complete horseshit. If you don't have anything constructive to say, you should learn to lurk more or play better before making posts like these.

 

[Whaloob]

rare post from me but I have been seeing a lot of discussion about View attachment 772903. as someone that has played a lot during the olt cycles (unfortunately was hardstuck 1700/1800s for most of it buts its whatever) I want to share a few thoughts about this mon.

I honestly don't think this mon is broken and I feel like the meta has done a good job at adapting to waterpon imo. tera grass being used on defense mons like the birds , etc make its less easier for waterpon to freely spam ivy cudgel and give it the potential to be crippled by will o wisp or thunder wave. There is decently reliable checks like Bulky , , , , , that can stop ogerpon from immediately snowballing. I also think with strong priority users like , and speed control options like :tornadus therain: and booster mons like makes revenge killing waterpon a managable. espeically with all the fast scarfers that like to spam U-turn which waterpon doesn't really like to face.

in terms of my personal enjoyment I really like using waterpon. don't get me wrong even though I believe its balanced its still very braindead and forces progress so effortlessly with its spammable stab in 120 power ivy cudgel(with a high crit chance btw) and its versatile coverage and movepool. I enjoy using synthesis waterpon a lot as it increases the longevity of woger in matches where I need her breaking potential for a decent length of time.

here is a team I used most of the time during olt. https://pokepast.es/472cdbbb47d6e814 (shout out marnie). it's a team of these 6 mons:


its a basic Kyurem team, but it also uses knock+sysnthesis pon which I talked about. watepon forcing switchins and knocking items off while having the longevity to be threatening in the late game made it much easier for me. (little off topic but I also enjoy using subtect especially to shit on annoying mons like and with tera ground). this team is also very easy to use so there is that.

with that being said what annoys me most about the wellspring arguments is people are dismissing mons that can decently check wellspring just because there is tech that exist to beat it.

Like this statement for example, I dont agree with this at all. yes dragonite can lose to some ogerpon sets that have play rough, doesn't mean its not a reliable check. not all ogerpon sets run play rough. some run encore SD, some run knock U-turn, some run spikes and taunt, some run trailblaze sd. and to be honest Ogerpon in a sense is a pretty telegraphed mon. it's going to be clicking ivy cudgel as its attack like 90% of the time general and it that case dnite is a reliable switch into that. and even if dnite gets knocked and rocks are up, Waterpons lacking play rough isn't going to threaten KOs against dnite, thus giving dnite time to roost and get its health back full. is dnite always going to 100% beat woger? no is it a reliable woger check most of the time though? yes if you ask me.

this applies to other mons as well, yes zama, corv, etc can get worned down by +2 woger if significantly, that doesn't mean they aren't valid initial switch ins or checks. although I do agree with the rest of the post of being a easy progress maker with a lot moves in its arsenal (spikes, trailblaze, taunt, encore, SD, synthesis, knock off, etc and he is right about wogers hazard weakness being exaggerated) however I disagree with the notion that waterpon is too "risky" and hard to scout. as long as you have a proper ivy cudgel switchin(like the dragons, corv, pechas, zamas, even the rillabooms and such) you can scout waterpon without things getting too out of control quickly.

Lastly, i'm not a big fan of people glazing trailblaze like its some super supreme unstoppable snowball, it's really not that good imo. i mean yes ogepron being boosted in speed while spamming SD boosted cudgels sounds super broken and annoying for offense teams to deal with, but the problem is that the sets I have seen being ran are way too greedy, and it ends up having a worst MU into fatter teams. like SD synthesis trailblaze cudgel sounds cool but do you really think you will have the time to set that up in front of a or or any of the top dragons in the tier like for example? probably not if you ask me. you also have a harder time immediately breaking fatter teams and stall since trailblaze is signficiantly weaker than power whip which gives fat waters like plently of time to click haze or poison move and to set up curses and click rest. and iirc don't people run adament on these type of greedy ass sets? initally underspeeding mons like doesn't sound appealing to me but its wtv. that's all I want to post for now this is just late night thoughts.

I love how basically every piece of evidence you give to say it’s not broken you’re immediately like “don’t get me wrong it’s still pretty broken that it can do that” lmao what

Defensive Zapdos should not have to tera grass just to live a +2 cudgel in order to get a twave off. It dies from full vs tera cudgel and crit cudgel, while cudgel infamously has higher crit chance.

You claim that scouting Woger isn’t so bad because there are plenty of mons that can switch into a cudgel, and that’s true, but then what? I can switch pech out to a knock absorber to scout knock, but then I’ll either get no new info because it swapped out in fear of malignant chain or I’ll be right back to needing to take a cudgel, all while risking SD or cudgel on one of my switches (and going to a fast mon that you’re okay with getting knocked still means risking a cudgel). Point is, you can end up burning a lot of resources just figuring out its set or even just put in positions where you can’t afford to spend time scouting and just have to hope it’s not The Bad Set For Your Team.

You call it very revenge killable, by things that pretty consistently lose to trailblaze woger, and your defense of trailblaze woger was “well trailblaze is actually broken but people just run way too greedy sets”. Other than Dragonite and Raging Bolt, none of the effective priority options switch in well at all, and only Lokix and specs Raging Bolt in sun threaten a oneshot (the former of which has to tera and be banded to meet Woger’s tera with a oneshot). You don’t always need a oneshot of course, but the thing this should illustrate for you is just how dire a misstep against it can be.

Unlike the OTHER patron saint of “guess wrong = lose” in Dragonite (which is debatable, nor am I arguing one is better than the other atm, but that’s a separate conversation), the “wrong” Woger set for a matchup is almost always going to make decent progress. Almost every Woger set has either generally good utility/progress making moves like uturn, knock, taunt, or spikes (cudgel is frankly kinda in this category) or SD, and its speed tier, while certainly not tough to beat, is enough to outspeed at least 2-3 mons on even the most HO of HO teams, so even your non-trailblaze/glide-on-GT SD Woger will get a chance to claim a kill (and against HO, it really kinda does just claim a kill when given a turn to go first against a bunch of frail offensive mons). That is, mind you, a mon in its alleged worst matchup having very good odds to make an even trade. How is that not ridiculous to you?

And the icing on the cake is you acknowledge it’s got an arsenal of insane moves, it’s not that hazard weak, and cudgel is a virtually brainless click, all while making halfhearted attempts to substantiate the claim that it’s actually not that broken.

 

[KamenOH]

I mean, is Wogerpon winning any tournaments? If it's showing up on near every team at say the OtherLeagueTournament, and it's still deciding matches, then it probably is broken, although you didn't need me to tell you all that.

Miserable Flaffing You Don't Need To Read

And honestly, this dismissive attitude towards possible solutions, forwarding your way of battling as though it is the one true way, reeks of a need to have the meta operate your way.

I'd like to nominate Toxtricity as a potential check.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxtricity Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 456-536 (151.4 - 178%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 306-361 (101.6 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With neither side tera'd, Woger cannot safely come in on it, nor can it safely set up.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxtricity: 249-294 (85.5 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Pre-Tera, if both are at full and unstatted, it is highly likely that Toxtricity will win out, although it can be tempting to roll for the OHKO.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 354-416 (117.6 - 138.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Don't know why it won't let me factor in an already Tera'd Ogerpon switching in, but at plus one SpD, Toxtricity will still OHKO Ogerpon.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Toxtricity: 244-288 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Odd spread, but given that I just want an answer, I'll let it be. Unless Ogerpon crits, it isn't guaranteed to get the OHKO, meaning it is still vulnerable.

I wouldn't recommend bringing Toxtricity in on an on-field Ogerpon, but I 1, never said it was a counter, nor 2, said that a counter is necessary. If you think the switch can be done, go for it. You'll likely be rewarded for it, and if the opponent switches into something else, you got some momentum going.

Look on the bright side sometimes. I know I should listen to that more often myself!

 

[Moyashi]

I mean, is Wogerpon winning any tournaments? If it's showing up on near every team at say the OtherLeagueTournament, and it's still deciding matches, then it probably is broken, although you didn't need me to tell you all that.

First let’s not with the patronizing bit at the end there please. No need for snark that isn’t adding to the discussion.

But also, it’s pretty complicated given that Wellspring is so threatening people are prepping, or perhaps over prepping for it and that can limit its effect. And yes, some mons used like Dragonite are naturally great but there is still a warping effect present in the use of Pokemon hard to fit like Hydrapple/Sinistcha as answers, or the awkward slap of Tera on defensive pokemon which tends to have little value outside of Wellspring matchups.

Also for Tox… nah. It’s a terrible pokemon that gets blanked by one of the big three while also flailing against other common mons like Lando, Gliscor and Garg, not to mention is easily revenge killed. Also it’s slower than wellspring anyways so…?

 

[658Greninja]

I mean, is Wogerpon winning any tournaments? If it's showing up on near every team at say the OtherLeagueTournament, and it's still deciding matches, then it probably is broken, although you didn't need me to tell you all that.

Miserable Flaffing You Don't Need To Read

And honestly, this dismissive attitude towards possible solutions, forwarding your way of battling as though it is the one true way, reeks of a need to have the meta operate your way.

I'd like to nominate Toxtricity as a potential check.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxtricity Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 456-536 (151.4 - 178%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 306-361 (101.6 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With neither side tera'd, Woger cannot safely come in on it, nor can it safely set up.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxtricity: 249-294 (85.5 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Pre-Tera, if both are at full and unstatted, it is highly likely that Toxtricity will win out, although it can be tempting to roll for the OHKO.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 354-416 (117.6 - 138.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Don't know why it won't let me factor in an already Tera'd Ogerpon switching in, but at plus one SpD, Toxtricity will still OHKO Ogerpon.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Toxtricity: 244-288 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Odd spread, but given that I just want an answer, I'll let it be. Unless Ogerpon crits, it isn't guaranteed to get the OHKO, meaning it is still vulnerable.

I wouldn't recommend bringing Toxtricity in on an on-field Ogerpon, but I 1, never said it was a counter, nor 2, said that a counter is necessary. If you think the switch can be done, go for it. You'll likely be rewarded for it, and if the opponent switches into something else, you got some momentum going.

Look on the bright side sometimes. I know I should listen to that more often myself!

Just to clarify, a check is something that can swap in a couple times.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxtricity: 249-294 (85.5 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Toxtricity: 183-216 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hard to call Toxtricity a check when it’s easily 2-shot by its main STAB move.

And even if it was a check, saying that an NU mon hard counters Wellspring doesn’t make it ok. Fortunately Wellspring hasn’t reached that level of unhealthy because three of its main checks (Zama/Dnite/Pecha) are all common top tier staples. They’re not great at it tho minus Pecha.

Zama has a tendency of being hard walled by things depending on the set, so Wellspring can keep clicking Cudgel until it goes down. I’d consider Dnite a somewhat consistent check if not for Knock Off being one of the most common moves on Wellspring (why does it even need this, Game Freak??). It also loses to Taunt Three Attacks Wellspring, so sometimes you can’t even make the claim that its free setup for Dnite.

Pecha is probably the most consistent, but even that still has to be cautious about +2 Tera Water Ivy Cudgel or Taunt.

 

[Insolence]

But also, it’s pretty complicated given that Wellspring is so threatening people are prepping, or perhaps over prepping for it and that can limit its effect. And yes, some mons used like Dragonite are naturally great but there is still a warping effect present in the use of Pokemon hard to fit like Hydrapple/Sinistcha as answers, or the awkward slap of Tera on defensive pokemon which tends to have little value outside of Wellspring matchups.

This discussion point comes up somewhat frequently. In fact, these exact arguments were made in both the Kyurem and Gliscor suspect tests. If it really was the case that all of these 'mons demanded such overwhelming respect in the teambuilder, surely they would be farming every game now that everyone is overpreparing for Woger?

Every single relevant 'mon in the tier needs to be considered when teambuilding. Some structures will struggle more with certain threats than others, but I have not yet seen a convincing argument that Woger requires a totally different approach from every other 'mon in the tier when building. Its item and tera type are locked, so it cannot tera to flip a matchup, gain fairy stab, or shrug off status. Offensive teams have little to no issue proactively handling it, and defensive teams can use checks to advance their own win conditions through hazards or chip.

Multiple tournaments have failed to show Woger having overwhelming usage or win rate. Winrate by itself is not the best statistic, even given the sample size, but there is also no proof that it actually is being overprepared for. A quick peek at the SCL Usage stats indicates high use of bulky staples like Glowking, Gliscor, Ting-Lu, Zamazenta, and Torn-T, showing it is entirely possible to build bulky teams with a great matchup spread while also handling Woger.

You claim that scouting Woger isn’t so bad because there are plenty of mons that can switch into a cudgel, and that’s true, but then what? I can switch pech out to a knock absorber to scout knock, but then I’ll either get no new info because it swapped out in fear of malignant chain or I’ll be right back to needing to take a cudgel, all while risking SD or cudgel on one of my switches (and going to a fast mon that you’re okay with getting knocked still means risking a cudgel). Point is, you can end up burning a lot of resources just figuring out its set or even just put in positions where you can’t afford to spend time scouting and just have to hope it’s not The Bad Set For Your Team.

It is not as easy to discern its set as say, Kyurem, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. I briefly looked through OLT round 3 replays to prove this.
Just off team preview, you can reasonably predict the set in most of these games:

Vert vs Clean - Glim/Deo HO. This is always SD.
Stareal vs TDNT - Two rock weak breakers accompanied by double hazard removal. Obviously a pivot set (knock + turn).
Originality vs Crying - Grassy seed offense, likely setup here. Oger + Rilla also indicates glide.
Fusien vs 3d - Pivot spam with a choiced/glasses rai. Likely pivot.
ima vs dasmer - ZapHeatLu boots spam. Needs a knocker, Oger is almost certainly knock + turn (turn went unrevealed).

Yes, there will be games where you incorrectly read the opponent's moveset and get punished. This is not unique to Woger, there are plenty of surprise sets like AV Kyurem or Tera Fairy Blast Gliscor which are used for surprise factor. These have obvious drawbacks as teambuilding rules are not frequently broken for a reason.

It is more than possible to make an educated guess about the Woger set and develop a plan for counterplay from the start of the game.

(Funnily enough, the reason I used round 3 instead of round 4 was that out of the 18 games played in round 3 this far, Woger was brought only once.)

I'm not on the pro-ban no matter what crowd regarding Ogerpon-Wellspring, but Tera Grass on Moltres and Zapdos comes with quite a big cost given Zapdos is often tasked with checking Scizor, Zamazenta, and Tornadus-Therian, and Moltres is also tasked with checking Scizor and Zamazenta, as well Enamorus and Iron Valiant. Often, if you are forced to blow your Tera, and your opponent hasn't, it's a net negative to you since your opponent can still respond with their own Tera.

I don't see why you would use tera grass apart from waterpon, they aren't good teras apart from beating it. That shows the centralisation of the mon.

Every single archetype has common meta 'mons that they struggle with. It is almost always required to either make an unequal trade or expend tera to handle these matchups. Woger is a breaker, it is specifically designed to excel against bulky teams. The exact same argument can be made for loading offense into Zama, Nite, or Lu.

Tera Grass and Dragon, while certainly not ideal defensive types, help cover a problematic matchup and can be useful in other scenarios. "Sacrificing" a tera slot this way allows you to improve your other matchups. You can, of course, just layer multiple checks which synergize well together - for example Hydrapple + Zama is a very standard balance core which also easily handles Woger.

Picking and choosing your tera to counter certain matchups is an intrinsic part of teambuilding this generation. Having to make these tradeoffs encourages diversity in team styles and the metagame at large.

It is the ban side that needs to provide evidence that Woger is more of a concern than every other 'mon in the tier and deserves to be banned.

 

[Heatranator]

This discussion point comes up somewhat frequently. In fact, these exact arguments were made in both the Kyurem and Gliscor suspect tests. If it really was the case that all of these 'mons demanded such overwhelming respect in the teambuilder, surely they would be farming every game now that everyone is overpreparing for Woger?

Well, we are kinda seeing Kyurem winning a decent amount in SCL. While its only Week 2 so far, lets look at the stats. Week 1 it was brought 9 times. If we discount the two mirrors, it has a 100% winrate. Week 2 it was brought 8 times and won 3 times. No mirrors, and bute did lose to crit. So 37.5%. So averaging that out between all the games (discounting mirrors ofc), thats a 79% winrate. Decently high. if you ask me. And winrate/usage rate is never a great showing for what is broken or not. 2023 SCL had sneasler at 64% winrate. Now, IDT anybody is saying sneasler should be unbanned, but like, why are we using usage/winrate as the reasoning when its shown time and time again its not reliable.

Tera Grass and Dragon, while certainly not ideal defensive types, help cover a problematic matchup and can be useful in other scenarios. "Sacrificing" a tera slot this way allows you to improve your other matchups. You can, of course, just layer multiple checks which synergize well together - for example Hydrapple + Zama is a very standard balance core which also easily handles Woger.

Tera Dragon is a fine enough tera on its own, though it does have issues against Play Rough Waterpon in particular. The issue is though, what else does tera grass cover? Like, seriously. Zapdos would much, much prefer any other tera, and while moltres doesn't mind it (water resist and electric resist is decent for it), other teras are also vastly better. And even in the example you give, hyrapple+zama, that can heavily struggle with SD+play rough variants or be chipped down quite easily by knock+u-turn variants accompanied by spikes (which it can even setup on its own).

 

[Whaloob]

Offensive teams have little to no issue proactively handling it, and defensive teams can use checks to advance their own win conditions through hazards or chip.

Offense’s and hazard stack’s matchups against Woger is consistently grossly overrated. Offensive teams still need to contend 1) with anti-offense sets like trailblaze/glide variants and anti-offense support like webs and moltres/zapdos, and 2) need to contend with the fact that every death is a potential opportunity for entry for Woger. Again, even the most screaming HO teams have 2-3 mons slower than Woger—110 speed is actually insane for something as powerful as Woger—so even against offense it will likely grab an opening to do something, where Woger is demonstrably possibly the strongest exploiter of an opening in the entire game.

Even more egregious is your assessment of its matchup vs hazards though. Virtually every hazard setter and remover in the game is relatively easy for Woger to switch directly in on; letting the best breaker in the tier in for cheap every time you set a hazard or try to remove is pretty brutal, or it can opt to match hazards if it’s a spikes Woger anyway.

It is not as easy to discern its set as say, Kyurem, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

I would call Kyurem harder to scout than Woger undoubtedly, but in any case, I’m not trying to assert that it’s difficult to scout, I’m disputing that a given set of mons from the post to which I replied can come in fairly easily in order to scout. That said, even within the realm of “this Woger is definitely SD”, there are a number of SD variants aimed at assuaging particular bad matchups, and *that* certainly can be harder to scout.

 

[JackRG]

Vert vs Clean - Glim/Deo HO. This is always SD.
Stareal vs TDNT - Two rock weak breakers accompanied by double hazard removal. Obviously a pivot set (knock + turn).
Originality vs Crying - Grassy seed offense, likely setup here. Oger + Rilla also indicates glide.
Fusien vs 3d - Pivot spam with a choiced/glasses rai. Likely pivot.
ima vs dasmer - ZapHeatLu boots spam. Needs a knocker, Oger is almost certainly knock + turn (turn went unrevealed).

Yes, there will be games where you incorrectly read the opponent's moveset and get punished. This is not unique to Woger, there are plenty of surprise sets like AV Kyurem or Tera Fairy Blast Gliscor which are used for surprise factor. These have obvious drawbacks as teambuilding rules are not frequently broken for a reason.

Vert vs. Clean - This easily could have been taunt (another good set on HO), and even knowing its SD isn't necessarily enough since on its own it's a set with a million permutations

Originality vs crying - assuming grassy glide was a fair play here, but what about the rest of the set? SD and cudgel are likely, but how would you go about deducing the last move?

Fusien vs 3D - Tbh I think most oger sets would work here. on Hstack Taunt is also good to block a corv/weez defog.

Ima vs dasmer - Knock and cudgel are the only certainties here. Synthesis? SD? Taunt? PR?

Also fairy blast gliscor lol

You also said at the end of your post that the ban side needs provide evidence, even though we've been giving you guys it for months? The pinkacross video is a good place to start. Meanwhile the ban side has only provided shaky arguments, so I'd definitely say it's on you to defend your cause, we have plenty

 

[ItsScaryCary]

I mean, is Wogerpon winning any tournaments? If it's showing up on near every team at say the OtherLeagueTournament, and it's still deciding matches, then it probably is broken, although you didn't need me to tell you all that.

Miserable Flaffing You Don't Need To Read

And honestly, this dismissive attitude towards possible solutions, forwarding your way of battling as though it is the one true way, reeks of a need to have the meta operate your way.

I'd like to nominate Toxtricity as a potential check.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxtricity Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 456-536 (151.4 - 178%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 306-361 (101.6 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With neither side tera'd, Woger cannot safely come in on it, nor can it safely set up.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxtricity: 249-294 (85.5 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Pre-Tera, if both are at full and unstatted, it is highly likely that Toxtricity will win out, although it can be tempting to roll for the OHKO.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 354-416 (117.6 - 138.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Don't know why it won't let me factor in an already Tera'd Ogerpon switching in, but at plus one SpD, Toxtricity will still OHKO Ogerpon.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Toxtricity: 244-288 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Odd spread, but given that I just want an answer, I'll let it be. Unless Ogerpon crits, it isn't guaranteed to get the OHKO, meaning it is still vulnerable.

I wouldn't recommend bringing Toxtricity in on an on-field Ogerpon, but I 1, never said it was a counter, nor 2, said that a counter is necessary. If you think the switch can be done, go for it. You'll likely be rewarded for it, and if the opponent switches into something else, you got some momentum going.

Look on the bright side sometimes. I know I should listen to that more often myself!

may I throw my hat into the ring with another possible counter in zapdos 176+ SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 366-432 (100.5 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO although zapdos cant ohko a full hp full spdef woger it can ohko the fast support set of woger and can 2hko the slower bulkier support set

 

[Whaloob]

Another counter to Woger worth mentioning is Ursaluna. Its Facade OHKOs Woger from full once guts is activated, and the speed stat and Ursaluna’s weakness to both of Woger’s stabs are liberal hoaxes.

 

[PastaMechKaku]

may I throw my hat into the ring with another possible counter in zapdos 176+ SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 366-432 (100.5 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO although zapdos cant ohko a full hp full spdef woger it can ohko the fast support set of woger and can 2hko the slower bulkier support set

The problem with getting offensive Zapdos to kill Wellspring is that unless you're Bold + Max Def, you're at risk of getting 2HKO by Cudgel and betting on a 70% accuracy move is not where one wants to be (just ask anyone who had to use Focus Blast to deal with stuff like Kingambit and Darkrai). A safer method would be paralyzing it first with either Thunder Wave or getting lucky with a Static proc and from there, you can either fish for Hurricanes (you don't need SpAtk investment for Hurricane to deal lethal damage) or let a teamate pick off the paralzed Wellspring.


If we're talking about Wellspring counters, I have an idea:


Sinistcha @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Heatproof
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind/Nasty Plot
- Matcha Gotcha
- Shadow Ball
- Strength Sap

Much of the woes of using Sinistcha as Wellspring switch-in is its Knock off weakness, especially if the Wellspring is at +2 atk. With a Colbur Berry, can easily stomach the Knock off and either fish for Match burns if Wellspring has no boosts or diffuse the situation by using Strength Sap on a +2 Wellspring. Afterwards, Wellspring will struggle to deal lethal damage to an itemless Sinistcha unless the opponent put every hazard in creation on your field and at that point, its about managing the board. Colbur also has utility versus things like H-Samurott and Lokix (in fact, Sinistcha actually hard walls Banded Lokix with the Colbur berry). If you got removal, then its a pretty low-investment set that can yield high returns by letting the little tea demon flip certain MUs without burning Tera and its powerful healing makes being itemless not the worst thing in the world.

 

[JackRG]

may I throw my hat into the ring with another possible counter in zapdos 176+ SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 366-432 (100.5 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO although zapdos cant ohko a full hp full spdef woger it can ohko the fast support set of woger and can 2hko the slower bulkier support set

Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Atk / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Synthesis

Bulky wellspring is good but u don't need anything beyond max HP. Tera if you need the spdef boost (as an aside, this can live a uninvested zapdos hurricane, which is hilarious lmao. Also knock it once and then it'll be in +2 cudgel range with rocks up. I like knock off for coverage since it midgrounds everything, although grass stab prob works fine.

 

[luckie]

Players in high ladder don't use Ivy Cudgel 90% of the time even if it's Ogerpon-Wellspring's most spammable attack as there are clear drawbacks to using it with how many good Water-resists are in the tier. Even max/max defensive Dragonite takes over 50% from Play Rough once Multiscale is broken, so what you described with Dragonite roosting off Play Roughs won't happen without Screens support or if Dragonite already has a boost in Speed and is faster than Ogerpon is. Hydrapple is probably the best long-term switch-in to Ogerpon-Wellspring, but a lot of defensive counterplay is shaky to begin with if your opponent isn't a unga boonga spam Ivy Cudgel clicker.

What set do high ladder players run? I haven't played SV OU since DLC 2 dropped and I'm completely out of the loop aside from stuff I've read in this Metagame Forum for the past two weeks. It's hard to imagine what was once the bane of my existence now hardly ever ran because people adapted to it that hard lmaooo

 

[Whaloob]

What set do high ladder players run? I haven't played SV OU since DLC 2 dropped and I'm completely out of the loop aside from stuff I've read in this Metagame Forum for the past two weeks. It's hard to imagine what was once the bane of my existence now hardly ever ran because people adapted to it that hard lmaooo

What they meant is that Woger doesn’t click Ivy Cudgel very often nowadays. Which just isn’t really true, only true hyperbolically at best, but every Woger has Ivy Cudgel lol

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

What they meant is that Woger doesn’t click Ivy Cudgel very often nowadays. Which just isn’t really true, only true hyperbolically at best, but every Woger has Ivy Cudgel lol

i actually think the sentence was constructed like "[don't] [use ivy cudgel 90% of the time]", as in they're not mashing ivy cudgel every turn, rather than "[don't use ivy cudgel] [90% of the time]" as in avoiding clicking the move most of the time. it's a very tricky set of phrases to try and communicate something with

 

[Avira]

I indeed meant that Ogerpon-Wellspring players in the higher end of the ladder don't mindlessly click Ivy Cudgel even though it being a non-contact move makes it very spammable. I know full well that every Wellspring runs Ivy Cudgel. Just 'cause it's the best Water-type move in the tier doesn't mean clicking Ivy Cudgel 90% of the time is the best play to make. Thus, I edited my post so that it says that they don't spam it 90% of the time instead of don't use it 90% of the time since there was a problem with how I constructed the sentence that could lend to it being interpreted in a way other than I intended even though it should be obvious since I quoted someone who basically insinuated that Ivy Cudgel is a free click in 90% of situations.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

I wanna begin by saying that I don't want to come across like this Pokemon is the single biggest threat to OU right now and it needs to be dealt with
I do not particularly like the way Iron Valiant plays
at the worst of times it feels too good for a lot of things, too fast without the move lock of Scarf, too versatile in its movepool and it's no paragon of defense but it's deceptively resilient to priority and has some really good resistances, notably to Knock Off and U-Turn
Idt I'll make any sense saying this but my favorite Pokemon to pilot ever was Hydreigon in Gen 5 partly bc it was ass but also holy shit this thing is murdering everything and I know the difference is one's a wallbreaker and the other is a cleaner / revenge killer but it makes me upset Iron Valiant just has like so many strengths and its few weaknesses are 'well it might get forced out and it'll lose that Speed buff' and 'don't let it eat a Flash Cannon'
bleeehghh

 

[40kultra]

Surprised to see that I got a lot of replies faster than I expected. I guess with a polarizing opinion like that it shouldn’t be surprising.

I don't see why you would use tera grass apart from waterpon, they aren't good teras apart from beating it. That shows the centralisation of the mon.

Btw first of all, on the Tera point it’s being focused on a little too hard or being taking too literally? tera grass was just an example of how the birds can flip the matchup vs woger. Tera grass isn’t the only Tera type that can do this, Tera dragon can also accomplish this (yes play rough exist but how many wogers are going to risk clicking that on the immediate Tera?) And again Tera is a situational thing where you’re only going to use it if you really need to. I’m not saying that Tera grass Zapdos/moltres will be your main counterplay to moltres(obviously shouldn’t be??) but it’s something that can come in play given the situation.

This whole sentence literally disproves the arguement you are making. Dragonite hates getting its boots knocked off, and thus, has to be forced to spam roost. Because if it doesn't then it takes a butt ton of damage. This isn't even ignoring the fact that after waterpon clicks knock, if it clicks u-turn once after rocks go up, it straight up 2HKO's bulky dnite.

Not entirely. Dnite is not taking a lot of damage from non play rough pon. FWIW my argument was flawed in a sense that I brought up the worst case scenario for Dnite and acting it will be fine when it’s definitely not ideal. Like hazards being stacked and woger spamming U-turn on dnite is not good for sure. Most Dnite teams should be packing decent removal though and Dnite still takes cudgels well even with multiscale broken.

I'm not on the pro-ban no matter what crowd regarding Ogerpon-Wellspring, but Tera Grass on Moltres and Zapdos comes with quite a big cost given Zapdos is often tasked with checking Scizor, Zamazenta, and Tornadus-Therian, and Moltres is also tasked with checking Scizor and Zamazenta, as well Enamorus and Iron Valiant.

I mean all these mons you mentioned aren’t all going to be on same team though. And again the Tera is situational and Tera Zapdos/Moltres obviously won’t be and shouldn’t be your main response to woger. It should only be used as a last resort thing where you really don’t have any other path on beating pon.

if you are forced to blow your Tera, and your opponent hasn't, it's a net negative to you since your opponent can still respond with their own Tera.

And this statement does apply more generally no? Like being forced to burn a Tera is a disadvantage obviously but like it depends on gamestate honestly.

Players in high ladder don't spam Ivy Cudgel 90% of the time even if it's Ogerpon-Wellspring's most spammable attack as there are clear drawbacks to using it with how many good Water-resists are in the tier. Even max/max defensive Dragonite takes over 50% from Play Rough once Multiscale is broken, so what you described with Dragonite roosting off Play Roughs won't happen without Screens support or if Dragonite already has a boost in Speed and is faster than Ogerpon is. Hydrapple is probably the best long-term switch-in to Ogerpon-Wellspring, but a lot of defensive counterplay is shaky to begin with if your opponent isn't a unga boonga spam Ivy Cudgel clicker.

I think some of this post may have been misinterpreted. I never said dnite is roosting off play roughs or disregarded the fact that dnite can lose to play rough ogerpon. instead I was arguing that not all are carrying play rough which in that context makes dnite a decently reliable woger switch in/check for the most part.

now onto the responses i'm kinda annoyed with.

People dismiss these, because minus hydrapple (assuming physdef), they are all awful checks. Dnite (assuming it has roost in the first place) gets cooked on the switch by knock and play rough (with the former being a great midground into pretty much every "check"), Pech gets knocked once then can't switch into cudgel again, Corv literally dies to +2 tera cudgel, and Zama is tasked with handling a million other things and doesn't even switch into cudgel that well.

Low effort posts overall and I think the dnb crowd needs to make better arguments for why it should stay in the tier

I’m sorry but what??? Wdym pecharunt can’t switch in on woger after a knock off that isn’t even entirely true. If you recover on the initial knock off you can still switch in on woger as long as hazards aren’t super stacked. And it seems people ignored the section where I argued that not all Ogerpons are going to be play rough and in that context dragonite is a reliable woger check. Yes corv loses to SD woger especially when chipped but then again, oger has seen a lot of usage without SD, so in the context of non SD corv can be a decent switch in(assuming no cudgel crit) Zama while probably won’t take cudgels as well after burning dauntless shield it is still faster than woger and can threaten KOs with close combat/body press. Your type of post is the exact type of post I was arguing about? Dismissing checks as terrible/not worth considering because they can lose to a certain woger set that is not guarantee to come every time? And I think we are kinda missing the point of a checks a check is not going to be a long term counter for the entire game but it is a reliable stopgap in the early/mid game. You claim the DnB posts are low effort, but I would argue your post is equally as low effort as the guy that posted that wogerpon/great tusk calc or whatever.

Defensive Zapdos should not have to tera grass just to live a +2 cudgel in order to get a twave off. It dies from full vs tera cudgel and crit cudgel, while cudgel infamously has higher crit chance.

Brothaman, Zapdos has stabs that can hit woger for super effective(hurricane, thunderbolt if it Tera’s) it can obviously do more than thunder waving. You’re taking this example way too literally. (It could be my fault for not clarifying, but do I seriously need to explain this?)

You claim that scouting Woger isn’t so bad because there are plenty of mons that can switch into a cudgel, and that’s true, but then what? I can switch pech out to a knock absorber to scout knock, but then I’ll either get no new info because it swapped out in fear of malignant chain or I’ll be right back to needing to take a cudgel, all while risking SD or cudgel on one of my switches (and going to a fast mon that you’re okay with getting knocked still means risking a cudgel). Point is, you can end up burning a lot of resources just figuring out its set or even just put in positions where you can’t afford to spend time scouting and just have to hope it’s not The Bad Set For Your Team.

why would you switch pecharunt out of an Ogerpon?? That is never the play regardless especially when pecharunt can hit it with malignant chain or foul play if it’s SD.

Your second paragraph also makes no sense and barely has anything to do with my main points

You call it very revenge killable, by things that pretty consistently lose to trailblaze woger, and your defense of trailblaze woger was “well trailblaze is actually broken but people just run way too greedy sets”. Other than Dragonite and Raging Bolt, none of the effective priority options switch in well at all, and only Lokix and specs Raging Bolt in sun threaten a oneshot (the former of which has to tera and be banded to meet Woger’s tera with a oneshot). You don’t always need a oneshot of course, but the thing this should illustrate for you is just how dire a misstep against it can be.

Like wdym by this?? seriously I spent an entire section explaining how overrated Trailblaze pon is and how it has a worst matchup into bulkier teams? again your taking the statements too literally, me saying "speed boosted ogerpon spamming cudgel into offense teams sounds broken" doesn't mean I think its broken, I was just bringing up something people would say in favour of trailblaze being good. if you actually bothered to read the section you will see that im arguing the opposite.

I also don’t get why you’re bringing up Trailblaze Ogerpon in response to its revenge killer when it isn’t even that consistent of a set in general? And is more difficult to set up against more bulkier teams. And revenge killing wasn’t really the main point of my argument.

And for the priority ones, what on earth do you mean “priority switchins”?? Like what? A priority abuser is suppose to be revenge killing not switching in? This is what I mean when I say your argument has barely anything to do with mine.

Unlike the OTHER patron saint of “guess wrong = lose” in Dragonite (which is debatable, nor am I arguing one is better than the other atm, but that’s a separate conversation), the “wrong” Woger set for a matchup is almost always going to make decent progress. Almost every Woger set has either generally good utility/progress making moves like uturn, knock, taunt, or spikes (cudgel is frankly kinda in this category) or SD, and its speed tier, while certainly not tough to beat, is enough to outspeed at least 2-3 mons on even the most HO of HO teams, so even your non-trailblaze/glide-on-GT SD Woger will get a chance to claim a kill (and against HO, it really kinda does just claim a kill when given a turn to go first against a bunch of frail offensive mons). That is, mind you, a mon in its alleged worst matchup having very good odds to make an even trade. How is that not ridiculous to you?

I also do share strong views about dragonite, but again, different topic and this section in geenral is pretty off topic and barely has anything to do with my argument. Even if woger outspeed 2-3 mons on HO, Those mons aren’t going to be weak to woger outside of one(maybe a glimmora? Non scarf Lando at best which is not even the most essential piece on HO teams).

and on the "wrong woger set for matchup is almost always going to make decent progress", yes that’s how MU works. if you run into the wrong set you could be in trouble, this applies to other attackers like , , , , etc, Woger isn’t really that special in that aspect.

I love how basically every piece of evidence you give to say it’s not broken you’re immediately like “don’t get me wrong it’s still pretty broken that it can do that” lmao what



And the icing on the cake is you acknowledge it’s got an arsenal of insane moves, it’s not that hazard weak, and cudgel is a virtually brainless click, all while making halfhearted attempts to substantiate the claim that it’s actually not that broken.

This is not really the “gotcha” moment you think it is.

Yes I think Ogerpon is braindead, Yes I don’t think it’s broken. Something can be cheap and braindead and not be considered broken. Take , , , for example. Is kingambit a cheap and braindead endgame sweeper? Yes, is it considered broken?? Generally speaking not really. same with raging bolt, it basically gets a kill everytime it switches in and super bulky and hard to take down, considered broken? No. Same with Gliscor, poison heal is a braindead and cheap ability, is it considered broken nowadays? Not really. Not saying all these monsters are on the same level of “brokenness” but you should get the point. Something can be considered cheap and braindead and not broken at the same time.

If you're going to call my posts halfhearted, at least make a better informative post in response. no offense but your post is completely wide off the mark. you tried too hard to get a “gotcha” moment but ended up rambling and going off topic.

 

[Moyashi]

Not entirely. Dnite is not taking a lot of damage from non play rough pon. FWIW my argument was flawed in a sense that I brought up the worst case scenario for Dnite and acting it will be fine when it’s definitely not ideal. Like hazards being stacked and woger spamming U-turn on dnite is not good for sure. Most Dnite teams should be packing decent removal though and Dnite still takes cudgels well even with multiscale broken.

Actually Dragonite takes around 30% from Ivy Cudgel if Multiscale is broken (not hard to pull off, and if at any point Dragonite comes in on Ivy Cudgel while MS is down, it is forced to roost or it won't be able to comfortably take boosted Cudgels next time (especially with the risk of crits). Of course bulky DNite takes it much better, but it's one set. And Play Rough isn't exactly the only way Wellspring can bypass DNite. The thing with needing hazard removal for DNite in case of Knock Off, is that Wellspring beats most removal options so in a game where it's coming in a lot. If you aren't using Hatterene, stopping to removal rocks isn't the easiest against Wellspring teams (unless you're Cinderace but that isn't perfect either).

I mean all these mons you mentioned aren’t all going to be on same team though. And again the Tera is situational and Tera Zapdos/Moltres obviously won’t be and shouldn’t be your main response to woger. It should only be used as a last resort thing where you really don’t have any other path on beating pon.

The point is that, if you don't want to be forced to burn Tera against it, you need other back ups which can be more limiting than it seems. Of course Tornadus-T, Zamazenta and some others can soft check temporarily, but they're imperfect answers for multiple reasons whether it's shaky bulk or vulnerability to crits and lack of longevity.

I’m sorry but what??? Wdym pecharunt can’t switch in on woger after a knock off that isn’t even entirely true. If you recover on the initial knock off you can still switch in on woger as long as hazards aren’t super stacked. And it seems people ignored the section where I argued that not all Ogerpons are going to be play rough and in that context dragonite is a reliable woger check. Yes corv loses to SD woger especially when chipped but then again, oger has seen a lot of usage without SD, so in the context of non SD corv can be a decent switch in(assuming no cudgel crit) Zama while probably won’t take cudgels as well after burning dauntless shield it is still faster than woger and can threaten KOs with close combat/body press. Your type of post is the exact type of post I was arguing about? Dismissing checks as terrible/not worth considering because they can lose to a certain woger set that is not guarantee to come every time? And I think we are kinda missing the point of a checks a check is not going to be a long term counter for the entire game but it is a reliable stopgap in the early/mid game. You claim the DnB posts are low effort, but I would argue your post is equally as low effort as the guy that posted that wogerpon/great tusk calc or whatever.

physdef Pecha switches in but after Knock Off, it's vulnerable to being overwhelmed by hazards. Even with just rocks up, Pecha needs to almost always Recover each time it switches into Ivy Cudgel lest it fall dangerously close into range of a potential crit +2 Cudgel (something you must factor), or Tera Water +2 hits. Dragonite checks some variants, not all. Not just Play Rough but Knock variants are irritating for it too. The rest of this is just not really a sound argument, saying that Wellspring can go without SD isn't really compelling because a lot of them still are running it. You always have to respect the possibility of it.

When talking about checks that lose to different Wellspring sets, it's not a matter of these sets appearing all the time, but that you have no real way of knowing which you'll face and prepping for the many variants it can bring is a strain on building. SD has many permutations alone, and with Wellspring variants now including bulkier sets and recovery moves, it continues to broaden the possibilities and make counterplay weirder. There aren't many comfortable true stop gaps. Side note but I miss Tangrowth.

and on the "wrong woger set for matchup is almost always going to make decent progress", yes that’s how MU works. if you run into the wrong set you could be in trouble, this applies to other attackers like , , , , etc, Woger isn’t really that special in that aspect.

The difference is that other than DNite (and to a lesser extent Kyurem), there really isn't anything that has the explosive threat level Wellspring has that giving it free turns can be so damaging. Valiant is well contained because of how many natural checks are found on teams no matter the set, and it's just something that happens naturally without thinking about it. It's famous for being a poster child for 4MSS for a reason. And Dragapult really isn't the kind of threatening by diversity, just in reliability of doing its job. But it's not a problem at all.

Yes I think Ogerpon is braindead, Yes I don’t think it’s broken. Something can be cheap and braindead and not be considered broken. Take , , , for example. Is kingambit a cheap and braindead endgame sweeper? Yes, is it considered broken?? Generally speaking not really. same with raging bolt, it basically gets a kill everytime it switches in and super bulky and hard to take down, considered broken? No. Same with Gliscor, poison heal is a braindead and cheap ability, is it considered broken nowadays? Not really. Not saying all these monsters are on the same level of “brokenness” but you should get the point. Something can be considered cheap and braindead and not broken at the same time.

If you're going to call my posts halfhearted, at least make a better informative post in response. no offense but your post is completely wide off the mark. you tried too hard to get a “gotcha” moment but ended up rambling and going off topic.

Gliscor and Gholdengo aren't really something to be put in the group of braindead (well maybe some SD Gliscor sets are silly but meh). And Kingambit isn't even at its peak from earlier in the gen. It's great, but it has flaws holding it back and is not nearly as flexible in sets compared to Wellspring or Dragonite. And I'm perplexed why Bolt is even here at all, since it's neither braindead nor super crazy. It's not something that "basically gets a kill every time it switches in", not at all. And it is pretty defensively lacking at times while being pretty fair to overwhelm through chip and pressure.

As a general note, when talking Wellspring, games like the match between TDNT and leng loi from SCL during week 2 really illustrate why Wellspring can be a frustrating pokemon. By all rights, leng loi was well prepared for Wellspring with Zamazenta, Tornadus-T and even Kyurem meaning they had a decent out in most situations. And yet on turn 20, Wellspring proceeded to BS anyways because Cudgel crit through a +3 Zama and removed it from the game on the spot. Torn-T got removed by Valiant and then Kyurem was dropped by the surprise Play Rough at the end.

That really brings me to a point about this mon: It's not that inherently it's impossible to prepare for, but that prepping for it is a big ask when few long term answers exist and many short term answers are also tasked with handling other threats on Wellspring's teams, making preserving those short term answers for it while also handling other threats tough. Crit Cudgel allowing Wellspring to upend would be counterplay is to me, a major reason why I can't stand its presence. There's a lot of threats that indivudually aren't problematic necessarily, but preparing for them all sometimes feels like a chore when threats like Wellspring stick out and require extra attention, making building frustrating at times.