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Metagame Bio Mech Mons [Leader's Choice Next Month]
- Thread starter RADU
- Start date
normal ass latios
so if i eg skill swap a choice specs onto their item slot is it permanent or temporary
permanent, ideally
You mean the ability slot?
yeah
i'm gonna just go ahead and call attention right now to the fact that hoopa-u can run any combination of band, specs, and scarf in this meta. i 100% guarantee this is going to be a major issue at some point
rectifying what I said in this post because this needs a little more attention to game design and gamefreak's intentions.
In regular mons, abilities are innate of the Pokemon, and thus are elements that are able to be suppressed or temporarily assimilated, but it is not a physical item that you can take away from them. Also shown by Disable only working for a few turns, since a move is something innate of the pokemon, the most you can do is suppress it for a bit. Items on the other hand are just something that is added on top of any pokemon with no restriction, so moving items around and removing them from pokemon is fair game.
In BMM, the core objective is to merge all customizable slots into one category that can fit anything in it. This means that, while for logistics reasons moves like skill swap only target the ability slot, ideally the ability slot is no different than any other slot, and you will be able to find anything in it. So, ideally, we standardize both interactions with item slots and interactions with ability slots to the same behavior. I believe things like worry seed/gastro acid/skill swap/mimic should be permanent, in a similar vein to how Pickpocket will steal an item permanently from the opponent.
This, as always of course, with the caveat that we will do all that is possible to make the code implementation for this metagame easier, so if this solution is not accessible then anything goes really.
tldr ideally things stay permanent but depends on code
Doesn’t your first point contradict your own idea of quasi-items in the ability slot not being permanent? If abilities are innate to the Pokemon, then why shouldn’t quasi-items or quasi-moves in the ability slot be reset upon switching out, as they become the new "innate" element? I don’t even believe this idea of “innateness” should be used as a standard because the entire point of this OM is to redefine how items, moves, and abilities would actually function if they were not strictly bound to a designated slot. Making the ability and item slot function almost the exact same takes away the fun in redefining them and shifts the interpretation more towards the “boring” interpretation. Furthermore, this idea of “innateness” is disproved by the existing banlist, as Slaking and Regigigas are banned because they can forgo Truant and Slow Start, despite Truant and Slow Start being “innate” to Slaking's and Regigigas's identities.
That aside, I believe the council should ban both Choice Band and Choice Specs before we even get a ladder. There’s already existing precedent for this shown in Sharing is Caring, but also with Darmanitan-Galar being absolutely broken with Choice Scarf/Band and Gorilla Tactics just stacking multipliers.
Devastating calculations:
+1 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Adaptability (less than Splash Plate + Mystic Water) Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight in Rain: 388-458 (97.2 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Walking Wake Surf vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 276-326 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mystic Water Adaptability Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Rain: 290-342 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even outside of weather, Choice Band and Choice Specs are absolutely broken when paired with other multipliers:
+1 252 Atk Fist Plate Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 294-346 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Adaptability (less than Draco Plate + Dragon Fang) Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 212-250 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Adaptability (less than Flame Plate + Charcoal) Iron Moth Overheat vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clodsire: 216-256 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
I agree with Inky completly because so many mons with decent offensive presence now become uncheckable nukes and there are so many that it's not a matter of bans unless its to choice band and specs.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Raging Bolt Helping Hand Battery boosted Power Spot boosted Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 716-844 (109.8 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO this is close to dragon fang lorb and draco plate
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Helping Hand Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 349-412 (114.8 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO this is simply banded
252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine-Hisui Helping Hand Power Spot boosted Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 337-397 (88.6 - 104.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock this is not even with the 1.1 boost that the stone plate provides and without life orb
See how our defensive answers are simply destroyed now I know about defensive items but there is no defencive choice items nor are there type reducing items similar to the supereffective berries. I'm welcome to any feedback and disagreement
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Raging Bolt Helping Hand Battery boosted Power Spot boosted Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 716-844 (109.8 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO this is close to dragon fang lorb and draco plate
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Helping Hand Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 349-412 (114.8 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO this is simply banded
252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine-Hisui Helping Hand Power Spot boosted Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 337-397 (88.6 - 104.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock this is not even with the 1.1 boost that the stone plate provides and without life orb
See how our defensive answers are simply destroyed now I know about defensive items but there is no defencive choice items nor are there type reducing items similar to the supereffective berries. I'm welcome to any feedback and disagreement
I'm not using the idea of "innateness" as a standard, I brought up the concept to understand why this difference exists in Pokemon games in the first place.
The reason I then opt to consider abilities as non-refreshing is because you no longer have this distinction between elements, because even a move or ability that sits in the item slot can be permanently Knocked Off.
Making ability suppression/swap permanent also is a good balancing direction, because it allows defensive Pokemon better progress tools. Imagine Clefable being able to Skill Swap a Sticky Barb, while also being able to Knock Off the opponent's item slot, doubly crippling it. Or generally mons that have both Gastro Acid/Worry Seed and Knock Off double their potential for progress.
Keeping ability slots as refreshable also doesn't make for an interesting distinction between item and ability slot, it just adds another safe slot for your items/moves/abilities, which you already have with the 4 move slots being completely safe from being removed.
As for addressing the concerns regarding power level, we initially wanted to avoid tiering changes until the meta had a chance to be tested, but it's true the ability to run multiple choice items is quite a bit ludicrous, and we've been brainstorming various solutions since. I wanted to avoid banning items outright, but adding something like a choice item clause would've been a bit too much, so this is what we settled on:
Choice Band, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf and Life Orb are now restricted. You will not be able to place these items outside of the Item slot.
This should reduce the abusability without removing the items outright, and still allows combos with choice item + 1.2x items at the cost of moves and/or abilities, which is more reasonable. We will consider banning band/specs outright if the power level is still too high to handle.
Assault Vest and Heavy-Duty-Boots are also going to be on a restriction watchlist. Both are certainly very strong items to stack but they don't reach game-breaking levels of strength and give defensive mons more survivability against the increased power level. Offensive Pokemon can also technically make use of these but the opportunity cost can often be too much for them to still function, which makes me believe these items could still be balanced.
Choice Band, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf and Life Orb are now restricted. You will not be able to place these items outside of the Item slot.
This should reduce the abusability without removing the items outright, and still allows combos with choice item + 1.2x items at the cost of moves and/or abilities, which is more reasonable. We will consider banning band/specs outright if the power level is still too high to handle.
Assault Vest and Heavy-Duty-Boots are also going to be on a restriction watchlist. Both are certainly very strong items to stack but they don't reach game-breaking levels of strength and give defensive mons more survivability against the increased power level. Offensive Pokemon can also technically make use of these but the opportunity cost can often be too much for them to still function, which makes me believe these items could still be balanced.
Enamorus (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: heavydutyboots
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- fairyfeather
- pixiplate
- wiseglasses
Kingambit @ Life Orb
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- blackglasses
- dreadplate
- kowtowkleave
Damage multiplier with just a spammable move seems really strong, also sucker punch when there are a lot of choiche items around seems really strong.
70*1.3*1.2*1.2*1.5*1.5=294
300 base power priority without even using tera, coming of kingambits 135 attack…
Edit: Enam moonblast is „only“ 225, but fairy is extremly spammable and you are also a scarfer and immune to hazards.
Also retricting Choice items is defininatly a great change, the stacking would be even more insane with them.
Although they might need to be restricted even more (if you want to run them you can not have anyother item).
Ability: heavydutyboots
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- fairyfeather
- pixiplate
- wiseglasses
Kingambit @ Life Orb
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- blackglasses
- dreadplate
- kowtowkleave
Damage multiplier with just a spammable move seems really strong, also sucker punch when there are a lot of choiche items around seems really strong.
70*1.3*1.2*1.2*1.5*1.5=294
300 base power priority without even using tera, coming of kingambits 135 attack…
Edit: Enam moonblast is „only“ 225, but fairy is extremly spammable and you are also a scarfer and immune to hazards.
Also retricting Choice items is defininatly a great change, the stacking would be even more insane with them.
Although they might need to be restricted even more (if you want to run them you can not have anyother item).
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It doesn't. I don't get why Choice Band and Choice Specs are restricted instead of outright banned when none of the ridiculous damage calculations that I provided earlier even change. The only interactions that change with this decision is that offensive nukes can no longer switch into Knock Off Pokemon safely (if they even click Knock Off, also you can just use a defensive pivot), Wonder Room is more powerful (nobody is using this), and the Choice Band/Specs + Choice Scarf combination is now impossible. These interaction changes are not significant enough whatsoever for Choice Band and Specs, and again, there is already precedent with Sharing is Caring outright banning Choice Band/Specs instead of restricting them and Gen 8 OU banning Darmanitan-Galar despite it being extremely weak to hazards and not being able to switch into any attack.
Furthermore, Choice Scarf is not banworthy nor restrict-worthy. It is only broken with the combination of Choice Band and Choice Specs, which are far more broken than Choice Scarf itself and should be banned before action on Choice Scarf, if any, should be taken. Choice Band and Choice Specs being gone mean that Scarf users now have to sacrifice 2 slots to get the same damage output as a Band/Specs, which is much weaker due to its greater opportunity cost.
These are valid concerns, and we'll obviously keep everything under a tight watch for an outright ban if/when the meta is playable on the ladder, and if any action needs to be taken we will do so immediately.
I'm not claiming that the current restrictions will make the metagame balanced, but I'd like to see how things play out in the early phases before going through more definitive metagame action. This isn't to say that I'm opposed to banning Specs and Band outright, I actually suggested doing just that while submitting the metagame, but I think it's worthwhile to see them in practice and take things gradually.
With Choice Scarf restricted, at the very least, these one-move mons are much more easily revenge-killed, or have a reduced firepower if they want to be scarfed. We'll likely unrestrict Scarf if the other Choice items get banned outright
The power level in Pokemon is very carefully curated, and even something like stacking Mystic Water + Splash Plate + Life Orb on mons like Wellspring or Walking Wake reaches levels of firepower that are not really possible to deal with head-on without absorb abilities. You can certainly ban choice items and life orb, and then ban every offensive pokemon that gets too much leverage out of stacking 1.2x boosting items, and eventually reach a point where the power level can sustain a metagame that is as similar as possible to OU. That approach is a bit extreme, and takes time, and may not be the best way forward, so there's really no need to commit to that direction as soon as possible. This metagame can find its own identity in a different style of play, that perhaps we are not used to.
Darmanitan-Galar is not necessarily a fitting comparison, because unlike in OU, every Pokemon can become Sir Nuclear Bomb The 7th, with benefits and downsides. You're not forced to run Corviknight if the tier doesn't appreciate it, and there are other strategies that may be employed. Focus Sash increases in viability, Sticky Web increases in viability, hell you can outright SubTect PP stall some of these guys.
But of course this is all theory, I can't sit here and tell you that running a focus sash guy and trying to revenge kill is gonna be an effective strategy, because maybe they are able to fit hazards on their team, but then again you can run sash + boots, which of course means you're weaker, but that means you get a free shell smash or whatever, but then your opponent brings their nuker punch gambit, and the thought process goes on.
What I mean to convey is that I wish to be under the belief that the meta will not be as one-dimensional as you expect it to be. That there will be some level of depth in strategy, even if defensive pokemon become a bit weaker. That the tier identity will at the very least be fresh and interesting and have potential for growth beyond trying to replicate metagames that already exists.
I'm still ready to be proven wrong and I'm already preparing for that possibility, I just put great value in playtesting is all
Erm acktually, its magic room that disables items(I agree with all the points you said here, a restrict seems like a fairly pointless action when it doesn't really address the heart of the issue that is stacking boosts, might as well have no action at all)
I don’t think this meta has the time within 4 weeks to actually “take things gradually”. Look at Battlefields: despite everyone clearly knowing that Trick Room and Tailwind were actually broken, the council didn’t actually ban them until the meta got a ladder, and the ban only took effect after around 40 hours.
That’s not my point. My point is that Choice Band and Choice Specs are broken and should be immediately be banned. If anything else pops up as banworthy, then ban it.
If you don’t want to use the Darmanitan-Galar example, then we can easily turn to Sharing is Caring, where Tera, Choice Band, and Choice Specs dominated the metagame for 11 days before being banned by the council. We can also look at the Shared Power metagame, where every team is either HO nukes, hard stall, or bulky offense Berries. In Shared Power, there is variety and diversity between different HO archetypes, ranging from Steelspam to Guts priority spam to Dragon spam, which enables them to balance each other out to some degree. I don’t see this metagame becoming similar to Shared Power at all because only 1 strategy will exist and that will be weather spam with Band and Specs (Swift Swim is also banned in Shared Power).
Sash spam failed to develop in Sharing is Caring so I do not see how it would develop here at all. Furthermore, the only strategies I currently see to stop Band and Specs and Rain are to run hazards (trash because unKnockable Boots), run your own weather (woohoo broken banworthy weather wars), run Sash spam (gimmicky as hell and forces you to waste a slot just to avoid getting OHKOed), and using Water immunity Pokemon (if you are at this point then it’s obvious that weather is broken). I fail to see how any of these strategies create a healthy and competitive environment. Furthermore, Sharing is Caring had time to develop these strategies too, yet Band and Specs were still banned.
“a bit weaker” is quite an understatement. Defensive Pokemon are HORRIBLE in this metagame.
Some of the most egregious examples of how busted band stacking is even without life orb
Firstly, scope lens + razor fang gets us a nice 1.5x multiplier for any mons with a + crit move. This leads us to calcs such as
Specs + Sniper + Razor Fang + Scope Lens + Mystic Water + Snipe Shot
252 SpA Choice Specs Sniper Tera Water Inteleon Snipe Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex on a critical hit: 195-229 (64.3 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Sniper Tera Water Inteleon Snipe Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Alomomola on a critical hit: 262-310 (49 - 58%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Sniper Tera Water Inteleon Snipe Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 321-381 (45.6 - 54.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
I don't even want to think about this thing on rain
Band + Quark Drive + Scope Lens + Razor Fang + Booster Energy + Stone Edge
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta on a critical hit: 191-225 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight on a critical hit: 322-380 (80.7 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This thing has 571 speed with quark drive, and if you're willing to settle for "only" 381 speed to run 2 rock boosting items, you get such wonders as
252 Atk Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo on a critical hit: 292-344 (57.9 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt on a critical hit: 230-272 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit on a critical hit: 283-334 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Band + Sand Force + Sand Rush + Metal Coat + Iron Plate + Iron Head
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tera Steel Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 192-227 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tera Steel Excadrill Iron Head vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 304-358 (78.3 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tera Steel Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 221-261 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Heaven help you if you misjudge if this is earthquake or iron head, since nothing checks both of them.
All of these options aren't even dedicated wallbreakers, the slowest one is Inteleon at 120 speed, these are mons that are good into offense while also just shredding any defensive option. As long as band and specs exist in this tier, this tier will be exclusively a trade-fest, with straight up zero reliable switchins. When mons become able to 2hko EVIOLITE CHANSEY, you know that defense just straight up doesn't exist in the tier.
Firstly, scope lens + razor fang gets us a nice 1.5x multiplier for any mons with a + crit move. This leads us to calcs such as
Specs + Sniper + Razor Fang + Scope Lens + Mystic Water + Snipe Shot252 SpA Choice Specs Sniper Tera Water Inteleon Snipe Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex on a critical hit: 195-229 (64.3 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Sniper Tera Water Inteleon Snipe Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Alomomola on a critical hit: 262-310 (49 - 58%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Sniper Tera Water Inteleon Snipe Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 321-381 (45.6 - 54.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
I don't even want to think about this thing on rain
Band + Quark Drive + Scope Lens + Razor Fang + Booster Energy + Stone Edge252 Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta on a critical hit: 191-225 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight on a critical hit: 322-380 (80.7 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This thing has 571 speed with quark drive, and if you're willing to settle for "only" 381 speed to run 2 rock boosting items, you get such wonders as
252 Atk Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo on a critical hit: 292-344 (57.9 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt on a critical hit: 230-272 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit on a critical hit: 283-334 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Band + Sand Force + Sand Rush + Metal Coat + Iron Plate + Iron Head252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tera Steel Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 192-227 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tera Steel Excadrill Iron Head vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 304-358 (78.3 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tera Steel Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 221-261 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Heaven help you if you misjudge if this is earthquake or iron head, since nothing checks both of them.
All of these options aren't even dedicated wallbreakers, the slowest one is Inteleon at 120 speed, these are mons that are good into offense while also just shredding any defensive option. As long as band and specs exist in this tier, this tier will be exclusively a trade-fest, with straight up zero reliable switchins. When mons become able to 2hko EVIOLITE CHANSEY, you know that defense just straight up doesn't exist in the tier.
I believe that while choice items broke the game the restriction CERTAINLY helps but i think smth like specs/plate/life orb/ type booting item spam is still viable which in total is never healthy the day when a mon that has 1 move it the day when we know smth is wrong as always I'm happy for feedback.
I 100% agree around like 60% of decent attackers still spam insane moves the only difference is that with choice sets there's no life orb but choiced + plate+ move boosting item is still 1.98Some of the most egregious examples of how busted band stacking is even without life orb
Firstly, scope lens + razor fang gets us a nice 1.5x multiplier for any mons with a + crit move. This leads us to calcs such as
252 SpA Choice Specs Sniper Tera Water Inteleon Snipe Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex on a critical hit: 195-229 (64.3 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Sniper Tera Water Inteleon Snipe Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Alomomola on a critical hit: 262-310 (49 - 58%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Sniper Tera Water Inteleon Snipe Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 321-381 (45.6 - 54.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
I don't even want to think about this thing on rain
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta on a critical hit: 191-225 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight on a critical hit: 322-380 (80.7 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This thing has 571 speed with quark drive, and if you're willing to settle for "only" 381 speed to run 2 rock boosting items, you get such wonders as
252 Atk Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo on a critical hit: 292-344 (57.9 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt on a critical hit: 230-272 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Iron Boulder Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit on a critical hit: 283-334 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tera Steel Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 192-227 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tera Steel Excadrill Iron Head vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 304-358 (78.3 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tera Steel Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 221-261 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Heaven help you if you misjudge if this is earthquake or iron head, since nothing checks both of them.
All of these options aren't even dedicated wallbreakers, the slowest one is Inteleon at 120 speed, these are mons that are good into offense while also just shredding any defensive option. As long as band and specs exist in this tier, this tier will be exclusively a trade-fest, with straight up zero reliable switchins. When mons become able to 2hko EVIOLITE CHANSEY, you know that defense just straight up doesn't exist in the tier.
Addressing some of these points
The tier being "revenge kill their sweeper which then gets revenge killed and repeat" does not seem like a healthy balanced tier
Every pokemon being able to become Darmanitan-Galar would not make Darmanitan-Galar any less broken. Focus Sash will likely be unviable for a number of reasons(sand, hazards unless you sacrifice another slot for boots, multi hit moves with loaded dice), Webs forces you to sacrifice an entire teamslot to do, and obviously can't be fit on any structure remotely resembling balance. Subtect PP stalling fails for the simple reason of "Why are you wasting a mon to do a niche strategy that stops working if your opponent clicks the switch button, has a sound move, or has a multi hit move. What are you even subprotecting with, Weavile? These attackers have 120+ speed and if you take 1 hit you explode".
Are we assuming that we aren't going to be banning the 1.2x boosting item abusers anyways? They're going to be banned anyways and its going to take a ton of time, not banning specs and band will just eat more into the precious 4 week window we get to actually tier this OM. I guess we could make this the "unbalanced HO tradefest" metagame, but thats not exactly a reputation that helps sustain an OM past the first few days of a month.
With what time? An OM has 4 weeks every 6 months, and even a quickban usually takes weeks. Looking at Sharing and Caring, that ban took 11 days, and the activity of that thread after the ban announcement should show the consequences of waiting until an OM release to tier.
This isn't even that fresh or interesting, Sharing and Caring had this exact same issue with stacking a million boosts. Even if it was fresh, I don't really think a tier where an Iron Valiant can 2HKO a toxapex with Close Combat and still have 546 speed with Booster Energy is particularily "interesting", that just mean that defensive counterplay just doesn't exist.
We hear you and agree with you, we will be banning Choice Specs and Choice Band, and unrestricting Choice Scarf and Life Orb
Thank you for all your input so far, my questions to you now are:
Is Life Orb + double plates still too much damage for this tier?
Is Choice Scarf + Life Orb/Plates fine?
Are Razor Claw + Scope Lens any problematic?
Is it ok for mons to have unknockable Heavy-Duty-Boots?
Thank you for all your input so far, my questions to you now are:
Is Life Orb + double plates still too much damage for this tier?
Is Choice Scarf + Life Orb/Plates fine?
Are Razor Claw + Scope Lens any problematic?
Is it ok for mons to have unknockable Heavy-Duty-Boots?
- it's possible that lorb + plate + type item is still too strong. that's around a 1.87x boost to a type before calculating tera and stab, and occupying 3 slots isn't really that worrisome because you really only need the one move, just slot in metronome (since you'll be spamming the same move) and scarf in the remaining slots. i feel like offensive play in this gen is really precariously balanced as-is and boost-stacking in general might be a problem. my suggestion would be to restrict most move-boosting items to the item slot (life orb, plates, type-boosting items, metronome, expert belt, ogerpon masks and other pokemon-specific items; it might be ok to keep punching glove/wise glasses/muscle band unrestricted since their multipliers are small) so they can't stack. this might seem overly restrictive but is probably the only option that makes this meta anything but an all-offense-all-the-time clownshow. i would suggest waiting until the meta is actually coded and playable before making a decision that big though, because i could end up being wrong
- scarf + one of those options might be slightly iffy, scarf + multiple of those options is definitely going to be a problem
- i don't think razor claw + scope lens is going to be problematic at all. you're spending 2 slots on a 1.5x boost 50% of the time. that's effectively an average boost of 1.25x, which is less than life orb's consistent 1.3x boost for only one slot. you can stack life orb and a plate for a larger boost than a crit, 100% of the time, in the same 2 slots
- unknockable boots will probably be fine. hazards are a plague this gen anyway
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Given that metronome(item) is an actually decent item with legitimate use and metronome(move) is a completely useless move you could just ban metronome(move)