What is a Sub-Seeder?
So, for those who may not know, a sub-seeder is a pokemon who uses both the moves "Substitute" and "Leech Seed" to work together. It is generally seen as an 'annoyer' tactic, forcing switches, making certain pokemon last longer, or killing Annoying, High-HP Walls [e.g. blissey, cresselia].
Who are the Sub-Seeders?
First off, if we take a look at all the pokes who can use sub-seed, we have:
venusaur, exeggutor, meganium, jumpluff, sunflora, celebi, sceptile, ludicolo, shiftry, breloom, roserade, cacturne, tropius, torterra, cherrim, carnivine, abomasnow, tangrowth, shaymin, smeargle.
Out of those listed:
jumpluff, sunflora, celebi, sceptile, breloom, roserade, cacturne, torterra, carnivine, abomasnow, Ludicolo, tangrowth and shaymin have sub-seed mentioned in the analysis.
It's relatively hard to find a common link between these and why they have been mentioned as sub-seeders [Not including the fact they're grass types and they can learn the 2 moves]. Most of them seem to fall into different categories of usage and tier. Despite this, I think they can be categorised into the following groups:
Speedy
,
,
,
,
.
Pros: Quick use of substitute to scout and protect against opposing attacks.
Have a chance to sweep late-game.
More EVs can go into HP/Attacks because they already outspeed certain threats.
Can get in subs before status ruins them.
Cons: Can't take repeated hits.
High speed stat Could be better-used for sweeping.
Once shown, the strategy is obvious, and thier lack of bulk means they can be disposed of fairly quickly
Bulky
,
,
,
,
,
,
.
Pros: Can take hits if they're not faster.
Constant hp-replenishing makes them last a-g-e-s.
They don't Always have better things to do.
Can take hits even when strategy is revealed.
Many can employ various statuses
Cons: Lack of speed can mean heavy investments of EVs are required
Status can be fired off before they can sub.
lack of hitting power may mean they become useless if the sub-seeding doesn't work.
Those with other substitute-related strategies
,
,
,
.
[Note: The main thing to do is "Focus Punch"]
(Yeah, I couldn't think of a condensed name)
Pros: They aren't useless if the opponant can't be seeded.
They can do stuff after the opponant is seeded.
Sub-Seed sets aren't necessarily one-trick-ponies.
Cons: Generally slow at getting in subs.
Having the sub up is usually a necessity.
EVs have to be split between HP, Atk and Speed.
And then we have sunflora, who was mentioned as a "novelty" sub-seeder. Sunflora doesn't really fit into one of these categories.
So, now that we've taken a look at them, we can hopefully move onto the main discussion point:
The Main Discussion
So, the main question at hand:
What Makes A Good Sub-Seeder?
Does it have to be fast? Should it be bulky? Should a sub-seeder do things other than sub seed, or concentrate on its main goal?
Which do YOU think is the key factor?
I myself prefer my sub-seeders to be nice and bulky, so they can take hits if leech seed misses, and they can take a few hits to make the seeds actually useful. However, flaws come with the lack of speed and the fact that a stall war could break out.
The analysis seems to put speed above all when it comes to sub-seeders. I'm wondering what everyone else thinks and whether I'm getting the wrong end of the stick :D
Also, as a kinda sub-discussion point:
Why are sub-seeders used?
How do YOU use YOURS?
The only uses I myself see are draining walls with high HP, being annoying, baton passing chains or forcing switches in stall team with Spikes/SR/ToxicSpikes.
So, Discuss :D
So, for those who may not know, a sub-seeder is a pokemon who uses both the moves "Substitute" and "Leech Seed" to work together. It is generally seen as an 'annoyer' tactic, forcing switches, making certain pokemon last longer, or killing Annoying, High-HP Walls [e.g. blissey, cresselia].
Who are the Sub-Seeders?
First off, if we take a look at all the pokes who can use sub-seed, we have:
venusaur, exeggutor, meganium, jumpluff, sunflora, celebi, sceptile, ludicolo, shiftry, breloom, roserade, cacturne, tropius, torterra, cherrim, carnivine, abomasnow, tangrowth, shaymin, smeargle.
Out of those listed:
jumpluff, sunflora, celebi, sceptile, breloom, roserade, cacturne, torterra, carnivine, abomasnow, Ludicolo, tangrowth and shaymin have sub-seed mentioned in the analysis.
It's relatively hard to find a common link between these and why they have been mentioned as sub-seeders [Not including the fact they're grass types and they can learn the 2 moves]. Most of them seem to fall into different categories of usage and tier. Despite this, I think they can be categorised into the following groups:
Speedy
Pros: Quick use of substitute to scout and protect against opposing attacks.
Have a chance to sweep late-game.
More EVs can go into HP/Attacks because they already outspeed certain threats.
Can get in subs before status ruins them.
Cons: Can't take repeated hits.
High speed stat Could be better-used for sweeping.
Once shown, the strategy is obvious, and thier lack of bulk means they can be disposed of fairly quickly
Bulky
Pros: Can take hits if they're not faster.
Constant hp-replenishing makes them last a-g-e-s.
They don't Always have better things to do.
Can take hits even when strategy is revealed.
Many can employ various statuses
Cons: Lack of speed can mean heavy investments of EVs are required
Status can be fired off before they can sub.
lack of hitting power may mean they become useless if the sub-seeding doesn't work.
Those with other substitute-related strategies
[Note: The main thing to do is "Focus Punch"]
(Yeah, I couldn't think of a condensed name)
Pros: They aren't useless if the opponant can't be seeded.
They can do stuff after the opponant is seeded.
Sub-Seed sets aren't necessarily one-trick-ponies.
Cons: Generally slow at getting in subs.
Having the sub up is usually a necessity.
EVs have to be split between HP, Atk and Speed.
And then we have sunflora, who was mentioned as a "novelty" sub-seeder. Sunflora doesn't really fit into one of these categories.
So, now that we've taken a look at them, we can hopefully move onto the main discussion point:
The Main Discussion
So, the main question at hand:
What Makes A Good Sub-Seeder?
Does it have to be fast? Should it be bulky? Should a sub-seeder do things other than sub seed, or concentrate on its main goal?
Which do YOU think is the key factor?
I myself prefer my sub-seeders to be nice and bulky, so they can take hits if leech seed misses, and they can take a few hits to make the seeds actually useful. However, flaws come with the lack of speed and the fact that a stall war could break out.
The analysis seems to put speed above all when it comes to sub-seeders. I'm wondering what everyone else thinks and whether I'm getting the wrong end of the stick :D
Also, as a kinda sub-discussion point:
Why are sub-seeders used?
How do YOU use YOURS?
The only uses I myself see are draining walls with high HP, being annoying, baton passing chains or forcing switches in stall team with Spikes/SR/ToxicSpikes.
So, Discuss :D
