Not to be nitpicky here, but wasn't Syclant the one that people continue to cite as aimed to be powerful, rather than toned to what a normal Pokemon would be more like?
*Shrug*
-
The moderators of this forum can be found in the CAP forum staff directory.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Process Guide Workshop for Create-A-Pokemon.
- Thread starter Deck Knight
- Start date
- Status
Not to be nitpicky here, but wasn't Syclant the one that people continue to cite as aimed to be powerful, rather than toned to what a normal Pokemon would be more like?
*Shrug*
Yes I'm aware of that but still, you learn alot from that project when it comes stat spreads. One more thing, technically you were somewhat nitpicking at my sentences.
As Hyra said, the fact that usability is a big factor during the voting phase of stat spreads means that a BST poll is almost necessary.
With this format, though, we need one anyways since this current poll is determining limits of stat spreads and we'd have to decide what they are in the time between this poll finishing and the next starting. Unless we want to switch over to an art poll next, or something.
With this format, though, we need one anyways since this current poll is determining limits of stat spreads and we'd have to decide what they are in the time between this poll finishing and the next starting. Unless we want to switch over to an art poll next, or something.
We need a BST total because at the end of the day why should someone pick 525 if there allowed to use 535 or even 545. Do we really want to end up with everything we do being 545-555.
I assume the art poll and BST poll would come at the same time.
I've been working on a 'balanced' formula and on a 'physical/special' formula too, but I'm a bit stuck on what the definition of these should be.
Let's start with 'balanced':
1) I think Speed isn't an issue on whether a Pokemon is balanced, offensive or defensive, but maybe I'm wrong. So, am I wrong?
2) I agree, in part, that the higher attack stat from Atk and SpA should be more responsible for the 'offensive' part of the formula than the lower attack stat. For example, Hariyama has 120 Atk and 40 SpA, and surely it will only use its Atk. However, Salamence has 135 Atk and 110 SpA, and both can be used fine. I've been kinda stuck as to how I should intepret the attack stats.
3) For defenses, however, I don't agree that only the higher of Def and SpD is taken into account, as the Pokemon will be using both during a battle, whether it likes it or not.
4) Because of this, I think my formula will take into account HP, Def and SpD, and a heavily biased trend on the higher between Atk and SpA.
For physical/special:
I think I misunderstood Time Mage's definition. Is there a separate disparity between physical/special offense and physical/special defense, or are both offense and defense taken together?
Let's start with 'balanced':
1) I think Speed isn't an issue on whether a Pokemon is balanced, offensive or defensive, but maybe I'm wrong. So, am I wrong?
2) I agree, in part, that the higher attack stat from Atk and SpA should be more responsible for the 'offensive' part of the formula than the lower attack stat. For example, Hariyama has 120 Atk and 40 SpA, and surely it will only use its Atk. However, Salamence has 135 Atk and 110 SpA, and both can be used fine. I've been kinda stuck as to how I should intepret the attack stats.
3) For defenses, however, I don't agree that only the higher of Def and SpD is taken into account, as the Pokemon will be using both during a battle, whether it likes it or not.
4) Because of this, I think my formula will take into account HP, Def and SpD, and a heavily biased trend on the higher between Atk and SpA.
For physical/special:
I think I misunderstood Time Mage's definition. Is there a separate disparity between physical/special offense and physical/special defense, or are both offense and defense taken together?
This is what I had in mind: First, in the style poll, we choose if the proficiency of the pokémon is at attacking, defending, or a mix of both. That's why I proposed comparing the highest attack stat to the highest defense stat: When attacking, the highest attack stat is the most likely to be used, and when defending (and understand, defending as in "sent out to absorb an attack", not as "every pokémon, when battling, takes a hit") it will use its highest defense stat, too: You're not switching your Steelix on a Starmie, you switch it into a CB Tyranitar. Also, you nearly always (predictions and sacrifices not counted) retire your Steelix if they send a Milotic. Yes, you will take some hits from the less optimal side from time to time, but just as a good battles doesn't use the lower attack if there isn't a reason to do so, a good battler avoids taking hits from the weakest defensive side if possible.
That's concerning offensive/defensive/balanced. But we all know that there are offensive threats of any kind (physical, like Garchomp, special, like Porygon-Z, or mixed, like Infernape). The same can be said about defensive pokémon. There are some that take physical hits like nothing (Steelix), others that eat special attacks for breakfast (Blissey), and others that are comfortable taking hits from both sides (Cresselia). What makes those pokémon do better in one department or the other is, aside from typing and movepool, the difference between the corresponding physical and special stats. Gliscor's defense is much higher than its special defense, so it's obvious it is a physical wall. Both Rhyperior's physical stats, offense and defense, are much higher than the special counterparts, and both are relatively equal, so he is balanced and physical, meaning that he can equally take damage and dish it out in the physical side, but is horrible at both in the special side. There are many other examples, like Gallade, who is balanced (SDef and SAtt are very close), but is physical in the attacking department and special in the defensive department. As you can see, this way of classifying pokémon allows for most if not all types of pokémon to be taken into account.
Sorry it took too much, but I felt I had to clarify exactly the meaning of the style and build categories.
Finally, regarding your first 4 points:
1) I agree... Somewhat. I've been thinking about this for a while, and the speed chart you posted made me think more about it. Does speed counts for offense? In some cases, it's obvious, frail pokémon with high speed and attack are clearly offensive, but then, we have things like Tyranitar, who is fairly slow but also very offensive. Why? Because it can afford to take a hit or two, and dish out much more in return. The lower the speed, the more important the HP (since it affects both defenses) becomes. Factoring in both the speed factor and the HP in the offenses should do the trick. Something in the lines of: HA*SF + 4*HP*(1-SF). HA is the Highest Attack, SF is the Speed Factor, HP is Hit Points. Comparing that to 2*HP*HD/(HP+HD), being HD the highest defense, and adding the 2 and the /(HP+HD) so it can be compared with the offensive term. This is a rough draft, but I think that this method of taking both speed and HP into consideration when measuring the offensive prowess can solve a lot of problems.
2) Again, maybe weighting each stat according to its own power would do the trick? In terms of statistics, the lower the attack stat, the lower the chances that it will be used, so if instead of using HA we use something like PA*PA/(PA + SA) + SA*SA/(PA + SA) for the calculations, it will have a better meaning.
And regarding 3) and 4), I've reasoned abut them in my first two paragraphs.
Phew, sorry for the long post.
EDIT: All stats are the normalized ones, of course. And because of that, I'm changing HP to 4*HP in the offensive power calculation: Since I am adding the weighted Attack and HP stats, and not multiplying them, the 1/4 factor the HP term has in the normalized base stats does influence the outcome here.
And of course, this is all a draft. I still have to make more numbers and some other considerations to make this thing work properly. The biggest problem is normalization, in fact, not all terms are comparable right now.
Well, I think that Tyranitar is actually balanced, with its impressive 100/110/100 defenses together with 134/95 offenses.
About the speed, I don't know. Take Camerupt, for example. 70/100/70/105/75/40 seem to suggest that Camerupt is offensive without question. But when you factor in the fact that it's got only 40 speed, is it really that offensive? Since it can't land a hit without practically being hit first, I wouldn't call Camerupt offensive. Yeah, Camerupt can deal quite a lot of damage, but it will be dealt quite a lot of damage as well. Of course, I wouldn't call Camerupt defensive either, so I'd call it balanced.
I also think that Zapdos' 125 SpA coupled with 100 Spe is more offensive than Moltres' 125 SpA coupled with 90 Spe. So I actually believe that offensive is also directly proportional to Speed.
I don't know if people agree though.
About the speed, I don't know. Take Camerupt, for example. 70/100/70/105/75/40 seem to suggest that Camerupt is offensive without question. But when you factor in the fact that it's got only 40 speed, is it really that offensive? Since it can't land a hit without practically being hit first, I wouldn't call Camerupt offensive. Yeah, Camerupt can deal quite a lot of damage, but it will be dealt quite a lot of damage as well. Of course, I wouldn't call Camerupt defensive either, so I'd call it balanced.
I also think that Zapdos' 125 SpA coupled with 100 Spe is more offensive than Moltres' 125 SpA coupled with 90 Spe. So I actually believe that offensive is also directly proportional to Speed.
I don't know if people agree though.
Not sure if this is going to come out right or if it'll sound like rambling, but here it goes:
In an Offensive outlook, speed is directly proportional to the inverse of overall defenses. Something can have amazing attack and/or special attack, but if it has moderate/low speed and moderate/low defenses, it won't survive long enough to use said offense.
Therefore, it either needs the bulk to pull off it's offensive (Tyranitar, Swampert) or it needs speed to strike first (Deoxys, Infernape). If it has moderately higher bulk than average, and is able to increase either it's defenses or speed, it is a rare exception that falls in the middle where it generally relies on an outside source (Gyarados, Metagross). This source could be a move (Dragon Dance, Agility), an item (Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs), or an ability (Guts, Intimidate).
I hope that made sense.
In an Offensive outlook, speed is directly proportional to the inverse of overall defenses. Something can have amazing attack and/or special attack, but if it has moderate/low speed and moderate/low defenses, it won't survive long enough to use said offense.
Therefore, it either needs the bulk to pull off it's offensive (Tyranitar, Swampert) or it needs speed to strike first (Deoxys, Infernape). If it has moderately higher bulk than average, and is able to increase either it's defenses or speed, it is a rare exception that falls in the middle where it generally relies on an outside source (Gyarados, Metagross). This source could be a move (Dragon Dance, Agility), an item (Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs), or an ability (Guts, Intimidate).
I hope that made sense.
I completely agree with Dane, here. Taking this in from a competitive Pokemon standpoint instead of a mathematical or theoretical standpoint:
Machamp is a slow sweeper. When the entire opposing party is paralyzed, however, its chances of sweeping are drastically increased because of the speed-reducing effects of paralysis. Without paralysis support, it seems too slow to pull off (I'm sure someone has tried to play Machamp both ways, before?).
Zapdos is a powerful Pokemon with exceptional sweeping power. However, the way it sweeps generally depends on whether you are increasing its overall bulkiness or speed and hitting power. Either way, it needs some kind of support to become an effective sweeper.
Infernape is fast and powerful, but cannot take a hit. This does not matter, however, because it is so fast and powerful it will most likely KO before it even gets touched.
EDIT: I wasn't accusing you of anything. It just seems like so much of this topic is based on theory and math that I had to take a competitive standpoint. I think the competitive standpoint is the most important one you can look at this with.
Machamp is a slow sweeper. When the entire opposing party is paralyzed, however, its chances of sweeping are drastically increased because of the speed-reducing effects of paralysis. Without paralysis support, it seems too slow to pull off (I'm sure someone has tried to play Machamp both ways, before?).
Zapdos is a powerful Pokemon with exceptional sweeping power. However, the way it sweeps generally depends on whether you are increasing its overall bulkiness or speed and hitting power. Either way, it needs some kind of support to become an effective sweeper.
Infernape is fast and powerful, but cannot take a hit. This does not matter, however, because it is so fast and powerful it will most likely KO before it even gets touched.
EDIT: I wasn't accusing you of anything. It just seems like so much of this topic is based on theory and math that I had to take a competitive standpoint. I think the competitive standpoint is the most important one you can look at this with.
I agree exactly with what Dane said, except that I'd consider Swampert and Tyranitar to be balanced, not offensive.
Swampert's 100/110/90/85/90/60 is the epitome of balance. (It would even be consider balanced by Time Mage's criterion, which doesn't even consider its excellent 100HP.)
Tyranitar's 100/134/110/95/100/61 spread is similar, except it has more Attack and more Defense. Hence I'd call it balanced too. (Again Time Mage's criterion also makes it balanced.)
EDIT: I never mentioned anything mathematical in my arguments in this thread so far, so please don't accuse me of something I'm not doing :(
Swampert's 100/110/90/85/90/60 is the epitome of balance. (It would even be consider balanced by Time Mage's criterion, which doesn't even consider its excellent 100HP.)
Tyranitar's 100/134/110/95/100/61 spread is similar, except it has more Attack and more Defense. Hence I'd call it balanced too. (Again Time Mage's criterion also makes it balanced.)
EDIT: I never mentioned anything mathematical in my arguments in this thread so far, so please don't accuse me of something I'm not doing :(
However, X-Act has a point. If you have high offenses, but need high defenses to put them to good use... Doesn't that mean the stats are balanced? High offenses and high defenses, after all. That means that only offensive (through speed) and balanced (through bulkiness) pokémon can attack well. The rest, either are defensive, so they are not meant to attack, or... Just suck at life, like poor Camerupt. I mean, I refuse to call Camerupt balanced. He sucks, yes, but he sucks much less attacking than defending. So, he's proficient at nothing, but sucks less in one department than on the other. He's "offensive and sucky". Since we are creating non-sucky pokémon, we could ignore cases like that one... Even if it makes the general formula of style flawed.
Anyway, this is a complicated issue. I'll try to come up with a more satisfactory solution, but meanwhile, we could use the old method I proposed, but using the normalized base stats instead of the base stats alone. Those are much more meaningful, so not using those would be foolish.
Anyway, this is a complicated issue. I'll try to come up with a more satisfactory solution, but meanwhile, we could use the old method I proposed, but using the normalized base stats instead of the base stats alone. Those are much more meaningful, so not using those would be foolish.
i have a question.
if the purpose of this project is really to create pokemon that add to the balance of the metagame, why do we place art where we do? currently, art limits movepool and stats, rather than the other way around. i think it'd be a much more effective process if the whole monster was created before it had an image. this would allow for better balance i think. we could always go back and add a few moves that fit the art.(like how revenankh didn't have nasty plot until we saw what a mother fucker it was).
i just think this makes more sense. art should be the sum of movepool and stats, rather than movepool and stats being dictated by the art...
if the purpose of this project is really to create pokemon that add to the balance of the metagame, why do we place art where we do? currently, art limits movepool and stats, rather than the other way around. i think it'd be a much more effective process if the whole monster was created before it had an image. this would allow for better balance i think. we could always go back and add a few moves that fit the art.(like how revenankh didn't have nasty plot until we saw what a mother fucker it was).
i just think this makes more sense. art should be the sum of movepool and stats, rather than movepool and stats being dictated by the art...
Revenankh didn't have anything except Bulk Up until we saw what it looked like.
Stats aren't dictated by the art any moreso than they are on someone's preconceived notions of what they wanted the Pokemon to look like anyway.
Movepool isn't very limited by the art, honestly. Very few moves are restricted by art. Only very specific ones like Power Whip and the such can't be put on any random thing. It creates flavour, which increases the depth of the Pokemon.
I think we need to get a little more creative with cap.I have a simple suggestion that i think would have big effect it is this
The first poll is to nominate a move? The second poll is chose the move.Then the polling moves on as normal.What would be the purpose of choosing a move first.The move would become the foundation block.I will give some examples about how this could make stuff better
- So far imo the best piece art has won.Which is not huge deal but if we had something else to judge on more people art would stand chance in art poll.Just an example Cartoons art may look the best but we choose rapid spin as the move for the poll and Hazmat poke is slightly worse artwise but looks like it could rapid spin better and it wins the poll.
-It give spread builders something else to build around.
-Some moves have never worked in pokemon.Miracle eye,Role Play,Spit Up.etc..... the challenge of make these moves work on a poke should add extra fun to the process
-It fits the mission statement.If we are trying to fill holes metagame picking rapid spin,haze,baton pass,heal bell, roar and some what building around that move gives us a better chance making a poke have a unique real role in the metagame.
It is small move that could have big results
The first poll is to nominate a move? The second poll is chose the move.Then the polling moves on as normal.What would be the purpose of choosing a move first.The move would become the foundation block.I will give some examples about how this could make stuff better
- So far imo the best piece art has won.Which is not huge deal but if we had something else to judge on more people art would stand chance in art poll.Just an example Cartoons art may look the best but we choose rapid spin as the move for the poll and Hazmat poke is slightly worse artwise but looks like it could rapid spin better and it wins the poll.
-It give spread builders something else to build around.
-Some moves have never worked in pokemon.Miracle eye,Role Play,Spit Up.etc..... the challenge of make these moves work on a poke should add extra fun to the process
-It fits the mission statement.If we are trying to fill holes metagame picking rapid spin,haze,baton pass,heal bell, roar and some what building around that move gives us a better chance making a poke have a unique real role in the metagame.
It is small move that could have big results
@ dane: yeah, emphasis on the word SAW. sorry, should have emphasized it. that was precisely my point, we saw it and found a move for it, which i'm saying does happen occasionally. but it shouldnt happen all the time, just really fitting moves.
i donno. just a suggestion. i also think if we were to extend the art, we could have an art thread running the entire project, being influenced by what was going on in the main polls, but without the main polls influencing the others. i think a big problem in the current one is that elagune's won in large part because people assumed it would win...why? because it had stat spreads tailored to it already. not saying this is a problem, just throwing out ideas that might help.
i donno. just a suggestion. i also think if we were to extend the art, we could have an art thread running the entire project, being influenced by what was going on in the main polls, but without the main polls influencing the others. i think a big problem in the current one is that elagune's won in large part because people assumed it would win...why? because it had stat spreads tailored to it already. not saying this is a problem, just throwing out ideas that might help.
Why do we determine if a Pokemon is physical or special based purely on stats when movepool makes just as much as difference?
For example we have Azelf who has a very strong Special Attack stat at 125 and a very strong Attack stat again at 125. Obviously, stat wise, Azelf is mixed.
Azelf's special movepool is fairly nice too, STAB Psychic/thuderbolt/Flamethrower/Hidden Power.
It's physical movepool is mostly crap with just Iron Tail/Payback/Return/U-turn.
Movepool wise, Azelf is special through and through. Stat ups like Nasty Plot doesn't help Physical Azelf either. I considered Explosion something entirely different by the way.
This is an extreme example, but something I think we should consider. Oh and if you, X-Act, can somehow make a mathematical formula for deciding when a Pokemon is Offensive, Defensive, or Balanced, I commend you, but until then I think it's a bit ridiculous when you consider the speed and all the speed tiers which are now ever changing thanks to CAP.
I think that giving the BST creators as much freedom as possible will be the best route because if they support their submissions and convince the majority, what does it matter if they fit to a formula? Perhaps I'm missing something concerning people feeling cheated when the criteria they had imagined isn't met.
For example we have Azelf who has a very strong Special Attack stat at 125 and a very strong Attack stat again at 125. Obviously, stat wise, Azelf is mixed.
Azelf's special movepool is fairly nice too, STAB Psychic/thuderbolt/Flamethrower/Hidden Power.
It's physical movepool is mostly crap with just Iron Tail/Payback/Return/U-turn.
Movepool wise, Azelf is special through and through. Stat ups like Nasty Plot doesn't help Physical Azelf either. I considered Explosion something entirely different by the way.
This is an extreme example, but something I think we should consider. Oh and if you, X-Act, can somehow make a mathematical formula for deciding when a Pokemon is Offensive, Defensive, or Balanced, I commend you, but until then I think it's a bit ridiculous when you consider the speed and all the speed tiers which are now ever changing thanks to CAP.
I think that giving the BST creators as much freedom as possible will be the best route because if they support their submissions and convince the majority, what does it matter if they fit to a formula? Perhaps I'm missing something concerning people feeling cheated when the criteria they had imagined isn't met.
I've already done that. Look at the Stats Ratings thread. And also look in my signature for the Base Stats Ratings applet.
Just a thought, wouldn't it be better to hold the 'style' poll before the typing poll? Why do I say this? Because typing influences what style of pokemon we want; if we select say, Steel and Poison, we're essentially relegating the pokemon to a defensive role (since both Steel and Poison are horrible attacking types). Although this also works the other way round, the choice isn't so narrow (essentially being a choice between balanced and whatever the typing implies), since 'defensive' doesn't narrow the typing down to just say, steel, fighting, rock and ground.
It seems inevitable to say at this point that I'm suggesting that my Base stats formulae be used in the next CAP.
Out of 12 Base Stats submissions in the latest thread, 2 are offensive, 7 are defensive and only 3 are really balanced. This is, of course, not the fault of whoever designed the Pokemon, since they were adhering to a method of checking out balance, which unfortunately didn't work for all cases.
I'd also say to drop the BST thing altogether from now on, and focus on the overall rating. We just vote on whether the Pokemon is 'Very Good', 'Quite Good', 'Excellent' or whatever and use my overall rating system. The 12 submissions in the latest CAP Pokemon astonishingly had an overall rating ranging from 308 to 426, despite their BSTs being all within 9 points of each other. This proves my long-time stand that BST means absolutely nothing and that we should get rid of it.
Out of 12 Base Stats submissions in the latest thread, 2 are offensive, 7 are defensive and only 3 are really balanced. This is, of course, not the fault of whoever designed the Pokemon, since they were adhering to a method of checking out balance, which unfortunately didn't work for all cases.
I'd also say to drop the BST thing altogether from now on, and focus on the overall rating. We just vote on whether the Pokemon is 'Very Good', 'Quite Good', 'Excellent' or whatever and use my overall rating system. The 12 submissions in the latest CAP Pokemon astonishingly had an overall rating ranging from 308 to 426, despite their BSTs being all within 9 points of each other. This proves my long-time stand that BST means absolutely nothing and that we should get rid of it.
i see the same problem with using very good,excellent or whatever. People always naturally vote for the better ratings or better BST it happened here and happened with scylant. Then we end up with something that has so much BST or is aimed to be so good that we end up with overkill stat spreads.
It not really challenging to make a good competitive pokemon when your allowed to use 545+ stat totals every time.
I would like to see what people can do with 515 or even 505 for once.
The idea of not being able to vote for the same BST within 2-3 projects is something that could help with this.
These stat spreads are also killing movepool potentials, i like mekkah/Aldaron spread alot but can anyone really justify giving such a bulky spread WOW now.
Movepool needs to come into the rating or something becuase currently we are ending up with very very good stat spreads to make a pokemon top tier and in doing so forgoing movepool potentials to make sure this thing doesn't become broken.
It not really challenging to make a good competitive pokemon when your allowed to use 545+ stat totals every time.
I would like to see what people can do with 515 or even 505 for once.
The idea of not being able to vote for the same BST within 2-3 projects is something that could help with this.
These stat spreads are also killing movepool potentials, i like mekkah/Aldaron spread alot but can anyone really justify giving such a bulky spread WOW now.
Movepool needs to come into the rating or something becuase currently we are ending up with very very good stat spreads to make a pokemon top tier and in doing so forgoing movepool potentials to make sure this thing doesn't become broken.
I quite agree with everyone that the current method we used to decided on if a pokemon is either offensive, defensive, or balanced isn't as good as we hope it should. I somewhat wished X-Act had came up with this rating system helluva sooner so we could use it for this project.
- Status