CAP 4 CAP 4 - Part 11.5 and Complete Movepool Submissions

Should we allow the new move?

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Deucalion2 said:
Yay. It is about time we looked at pre-evos, especially since NFEs are now considered tier-worthy. I'd love to use Syclar in UU a team, but we never really did anything about him. Similarly, Pyroak has two pre-evos, and both were fairly ignored (admittedly, Revenankh was stand alone, so I can't say much about him). Paying attention to the pre-evos, and developing the, would be awesome, because it means we could start expanding CAP into UU. and not just OU.

That, and I would love to see cartoons' design for a flying spider.
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You do realize that NFE counterparts to OU/BL pokemon are currently banned in UU unless they significantly differ from their FE counterpart. However, they would be eligible in Little Cup, which most people on the server care about more.

hinode said:
A Bug/Poison pre-vo yielding a bunch of Flying type moves doesn't feel right flavor-wise, though; you would think that it'd get bug moves instead. Also, sneaking Air Slash in this way feels fanboyish in the same way Syclant's movepool does to me, personally, even if it wouldn't be used much.
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How do you go from wings to Hands? I can see Hands into Wings, but not the other way around. Agreeing.
 
tennisace0227 said:
You do realize that NFE counterparts to OU/BL pokemon are currently banned in UU unless they significantly differ from their FE counterpart. However, they would be eligible in Little Cup, which most people on the server care about more.



How do you go from wings to Hands? I can see Hands into Wings, but not the other way around. Agreeing.
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Somebody hasn't looked at Policy Review in a while. Check out the last few pages or so. Or even better, just ask X-Act - he was one of the supporters of the idea. NFEs are being added to the tier lists, and obviously most of them fall into UU.
 
Deucalion2 said:
Somebody hasn't looked at Policy Review in a while. Check out the last few pages or so. Or even better, just ask X-Act - he was one of the supporters of the idea. NFEs are being added to the tier lists, and obviously most of them fall into UU.
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Somebody has been reading that thread, it hasn't been implimented yet though. Also, what Smogon Server does doesn't mean we will too. That compounded onto the fact that we don't have a UU Ladder but will have a LC Ladder.
 
Hmm, so according to X-Act, there's three moves that I need to take out from the pre-evo. So, Substitute and Air Slash are out and Bug Buzz becomes an Egg Move.

Also, Feebas and Magikarp are exceptions to the "same movepools" rule! :D



About the wings thingy: Hand-shaped wings is the best idea that comes to my mind.
 
Caterpie, Weedle, Wurmple and co also all say hai.
Keep Air Slash, it could be usable in CAP, seeing as the other 3 CAPS have Flying weaknesses.
 
Deucalion2 said:
Caterpie, Weedle, Wurmple and co also all say hai.Keep Air Slash, it could be usable in CAP, seeing as the other 3 CAPS have Flying weaknesses.
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Where did Air Slash even come from? If most people are against random special attacks, and this is a Flying move on a Poison/Ground pokemon, why do you have it? Because of a Bug type Prevo? Uh-uh.
 
Sunday said:
We can only tell after the analysis is written (as moves that are on the sets is easily the best defenition to "competitive")
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So anything in the concept that isn't already used competitively doesn't count? So, Tail Wind and Gravity are "not competitive" (Trick Room has some sets already).

Also, a place to work on this pre-evo would be nice, even though all it needs is the ability to use Whirlwind and Tailwind (Poison/Flying maybe?).
 
Deucalion2 said:
The original concept was for a floating spider, a la Charlotte's Web. It was going to allow it to have Tailwind as well.
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So you go from floating spider to hand spider with Gravity, nullifying the floating Prevo. Riiiiiiight.
 
What does that have to do with anything? Why is evolving from Poison/Flying to Poison/Ground any different from Bug/Water evolving to Bug/Flying? (a la Surskit/Masquerain). If Surskit can do it, why not DDL Jr?
 
Because most Bugs fly. Also, most things don't lose wings when they evolve, they gain them. You almost never see anything lose the flying type upon evolution. Also, we should wait for the evo poll before locking ourselves into prevo moves.
 
The pre-evo wasn't meant to have wings. It was meant to be a floating spider, which is where the young spiders make something similar to a parachute out of web, get caught by the breeze and land in a new location. Haven't you read Charlotte's Web? Also, Scyther loses his Flying type on evolution.
 
Deucalion2 said:
The pre-evo wasn't meant to have wings. It was meant to be a floating spider, which is where the young spiders make something similar to a parachute out of web, get caught by the breeze and land in a new location. Haven't you read Charlotte's Web? Also, Scyther loses his Flying type on evolution.
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I read Charlottes Web years ago. Scyther is the only exception, and Scizor still has wings.
 
tennisace0227 said:
So you go from floating spider to hand spider with Gravity, nullifying the floating Prevo. Riiiiiiight.
Click to expand...

Flavor-wise, I don't see any problems with this.

Scizor still has wings.
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Read its PokeDex information. It can't fly.

I don't think that the DLL pre-evo should get the Flying type. I think that it should be a Poison/Bug floating spider with, say, Persistant and Levitate as its abilities. Levitate would obviously become Vital Spirit when it evolved.
 
And? So what if it is the only exception? It is still there. Eevee is the only Pokemon to completely change type on evolution, I believe. Does that mean it isn't a Pokemon? And as for Scizor having wings, but not being a flying type, I point towards the Bug/Poisons, such as Venomoth, and Dustox, and Beedrill. Looks does not a type make, (although admittedly, it sure damn helps). For example, Charizard looks like a Dragon to me. Is he Dragon/Fire? No.
 
Ok, I was only pointing out a fact. You want a Prevo that floats with Tailwind and Air Slash? Fine. You just have to fit Air Slash in as a competitive move in your movepool. Find some room somewhere, because it's not a TM.
 
Code: 
Pre-evo Moves (evolves at level 32): 2. Growl 2. Spiderweb 7. Leech Life 9. Poison Sting 14. Knock Off 16. Rapid Spin 21. Icy Wind 23. Sludge 28. Encore 30. Poison Jab 32. Pursuit 37. Bug Buzz 39. Tailwind
Code: 
DLL Moves:  -Ice Punch -Fire Punch  2. Growl 2. Spiderweb 7. Mud Slap 9. Poison Sting 14. Knock Off 16. Rapid Spin 21. Sand Tomb 23. Sludge 28. Encore 30. Poison Jab 32. Dig 41. Earth Power 45. Gravity
Code: 
Egg Moves:SpikesToxic SpikesWishHeal BlockFury SwipesPin Missile
Code: 
05  Roar06  Toxic             10  Hidden Power      11  Sunny Day      12  Taunt      15  Hyper Beam      16  Light Screen      17  Protect      18  Rain Dance      19  Giga Drain            21  Frustration                       26  Earthquake      27  Return      28  Dig      29  Psychic      30  Shadow Ball      31  Brick Break      32  Double Team      33  Reflect                  36  Sludge Bomb      37  Sandstorm            39  Rock Tomb      40  Aerial Ace      41  Torment      42  Facade      43  Secret Power      44  Rest      45  Attract      46  Thief      48  Skill Swap      49  Snatch            54  False Swipe          56  Fling            60  Drain Punch       62  Silver Wind           66  Payback            68  Giga Impact                  76  Stealth Rock          78  Captivate           80  Rock Slide      81  X-Scissor      82  Sleep Talk      83  Natural Gift 84  Poison Jab 87  Swagger 89  U-turn 90  Substitute 92  Trick Room
Apologies for the lack of paragraphs, I still haven't fixed my enter button. Also, what do we mean when we are talking about competitively viable, here? For example, I wouldn't consider many attacking moves at all competitively viable on DDL - you can see he will suffer from 4MS so badly, that does it really matter if you add a few extra offensive moves? It isn't like he'll gain much from it anyway. There isn't really a list that says "competitive" or "non-competitive", so it can be a little hard to judge.
 
A bit too many level up moves, I'm glad you added spikes to your list, because I've seen some that seem to ignore it. If we're doing Bug/Flying as its Pre-evo, then I'd like to see a Whirlwind/Spikes-er. Gravity works really well, and yeah. I'm too new to put together a movepool, but it looks like it's coming along really well.
 
hinode said:
A Bug/Poison pre-vo yielding a bunch of Flying type moves doesn't feel right flavor-wise, though; you would think that it'd get bug moves instead. Also, sneaking Air Slash in this way feels fanboyish in the same way Syclant's movepool does to me, personally, even if it wouldn't be used much.
Click to expand...
Point taken. Although I'd always imagined it to be a Bug / Flying type or even a Poison / Flying type, not a Bug / Poison type.

Like, a spider with an abdomen so big it's like a balloon, with 8 little hands (or just arms with no hands) floating down. No wings.
 
My revised movepool

Level Up moves

-: Fire Punch
-: Ice Punch
-: Thunder Punch
-: Spikes
-: Toxic Spikes
1: Poison Sting
1: Sand Attack
6: Rapid Spin
9: Mud Slap
12: Disable
17: Double Slap
22: Leech Life
27: Magnitude
34: Wake-Up Slap
41: Poison Jab
48: BlindingMire/Whirlwind
55: Earth Power
62: Fissure

TMs and Egg Moves are the same as in my last post
 
This is still a work in progress; I'm trying to move the egg moves around with the level-ups so you can have as much versatility with this guy as possible. I am far too stubborn to resort to Ground grouping. D:<
Some of the competitively viable moves are quite subjective. Can we please have a tangible list? Please? I'll do my best in the meantime.

Also, would the pre-evo and evo lists count as separate movepools, or would the competitively viable moves they contain still have to add up to three at max?

PRE-EVO LEVEL-UP
Code: 
--: Pound 
--: String Shot 
7: Poison Sting 
13: Gust
19: Encore
25: Gravity
31: Tail Wind
37: Aerial Ace 
43: Sludge Bomb

Pretty straightforward. I didn't give it Bug Buzz or Air Slash because we were going to make a ballooning spider, and those two moves require wings.
Edited the pre-evo movepool to incorporate the "evolves with Gravity" idea, because I liked it. Spider Web is now an egg move. Also, Heal Bell, Wish and Gravity are now all compatible with each other. Hurrah!

PRE-EVO TMs
( best to ignore this, it's just for completeness )
Code: 
TM06 - Toxic 
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day 
TM12 - Taunt 
TM16 - Light Screen 
TM17 - Protect 
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM20 - Safeguard 
TM21 - Frustration 
TM22 - SolarBeam 
TM27 - Return 
TM30 - Shadow Ball
TM32 - Double Team 
TM33 - Reflect 
TM34 - Shock Wave 
TM36 - Sludge Bomb 
TM40 - Aerial Ace 
TM42 - Facade 
TM43 - Secret Power 
TM44 - Rest 
TM45 - Attract
TM46 - Thief 
TM49 - Snatch 
TM53 - Energy Ball 
TM56 - Fling 
TM58 - Endure   
TM78 - Captivate
TM82 - Sleep Talk 
TM83 - Natural Gift 
TM84 - Poison Jab  
TM89 - U-turn 
TM90 - Substitute 
TM92 - Trick Room 
HM06 - Rock Smash

DLL LEVEL-UP
Code: 
h. FirePunch 
h. IcePunch 
h. ThunderPunch 
--: Pound ( pre-evo )
--: String Shot ( pre-evo )
--: Poison Sting ( pre-evo )
07: Pound
13: String Shot
19: Poison Sting
22: Mud Bomb
26: Sludge Bomb
33: Counter
40: Rapid Spin
47: Toxic Spikes
54: Spikes
61: Earth Power

I made the movepools for the evo and pre-evo "diverge" for the same reasons as Surskit/Masquerain. Some people oppose this, but this is actually common when the flavour for two different stages in a line is very different ( Trapinch/Vibrava, Eevee/everything, Nincada/Ninjask or Shedinja, etc. ). So I believe this is justified.

DLL TMs
Code: 
TM05 - Roar
TM06 - Toxic 
TM10 - Hidden Power 
TM11 - Sunny Day 
TM12 - Taunt 
TM15 - Hyper Beam 
TM16 - Light Screen 
TM17 - Protect 
TM18 - Rain Dance 
TM20 - Safeguard 
TM21 - Frustration 
TM22 - SolarBeam 
TM26 - Earthquake 
TM27 - Return 
TM28 - Dig 
TM30 - Shadow Ball
TM31 - Brick Break 
TM32 - Double Team 
TM33 - Reflect 
TM34 - Shock Wave 
TM36 - Sludge Bomb 
TM37 - Sandstorm 
TM39 - Rock Tomb 
TM40 - Aerial Ace 
TM42 - Facade 
TM43 - Secret Power 
TM44 - Rest 
TM45 - Attract  
TM46 - Thief 
TM49 - Snatch 
TM53 - Energy Ball 
TM56 - Fling 
TM58 - Endure 
TM60 - Drain Punch  
TM68 - Giga Impact 
TM71 - Stone Edge 
TM78 - Captivate 
TM80 - Rock Slide 
TM82 - Sleep Talk 
TM83 - Natural Gift 
TM84 - Poison Jab 
TM86 - Grass Knot 
TM89 - U-turn 
TM90 - Substitute 
TM92 - Trick Room 
HM04 - Strength 
HM06 - Rock Smash 
HM08 - Rock Climb

-You'll notice an acute lack of Stealth Rock. The reason for this is because it would be a shame for this to be taken for another SR abuser when Spikes and TSpikes are such a rare commodity in the Pokémon world.
-Explosion is gone so it's not too much like Forretress, but I don't think anyone else let it in either.
-No Focus Punch or Focus Blast --- if we got rid of Close Combat and Cross Chomp, so it only makes sense to get rid of these. I left Brick Break and Drain Punch though.
-Charge Beam is gone because it's a stat booster, sorry.
-Shadow Ball, Shock Wave and Energy Ball are all still in tact.
-After Persistent, I am baffled as to why some people haven't included Trick Room/Safeguard in their movepools. But rest assured, I definately did.
-Some people didn't have U-Turn. I do. Gogo TR-Turn!

EGG MOVES
( Bug/Fairy )
Code: 
Pursuit ( B: Beedrill/Scyther/Scorupi/Spinarak/Yanma )
Spider Web ( B: Spinarak )
Disable ( B: Spinarak ) ( F: Castform/Jigglypuff )
Knock Off ( B: Scorupi/Ledyba/Shuckle/Syclant )
Wish ( F: Chansey/Minun/Plusle/Skitty/Togetic )
Heal Bell ( F: Chansey/Skitty )
Comet Punch ( B: Ledyba )
Mach Punch ( B: Ledyba ) ( F: Breloom )
Bug Bite ( B: Ledyba/Venonat/Yanmega/Ariados )
I would have loved to have included Me First in here somewhere, but it can't be inhereted from either Bug or Fairy, and slipping it in the level-ups would mean another move would have to disappear or become incompatible with other moves that are more interesting/useful anyways. So it had to be sacrificed. ):

Egg moves need a lot of work still. Do competitive moves that are repeated in the level-up lists count towards the competitive move count limit? Also, can CAP Pokémon breed with each other? I added Syclant in just in case.

Comment on the pre-evo argument: Let's keep in mind that there are no Pokemon bar Eevee that change their base type upon evolution, so the pre-evo should still have Poison as its main.
 
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