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Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion
- Thread starter Firestorm
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Actually, it seems to look pretty solid as of the current metagame. My only qualms (and they're very minor. Most of them except for one or two I wouldn't throw a hissy fit one way or another).
Starting from top:
1. Give Meta his own tier. Dead serious. At the very least stick Game and Watch up there with him. MK is on such a completely different level than ROB or Dedede or anyone else that makes up the current top tier it's not even funny.
2. Speaking of Game and Watch, I thought the community finally came to the conclusion that G&W > D3 as a character? Move G&W up. Matter of fact, move him above Snake while you're at it, overrated (but still great!) bastard he is (I could even see both being moved below Falco, but I won't make too big a fuss over that. 5th seems like a very comfortable and accurate position for him). So yeah. G&W up above Snake and Dedede, at the ABSOLUTE least the latter if all you Snakeophiles are too scared to see your precious Snake fall below even Metaknight. He's got the tournament records to justify 2nd.
3. Marth over ROB. That is all. I could live either way though. Both have their merrits.
4. I'd personally switch Olimar's and Pit's positions, or maybe just putting Olimar in Pit's place and moving Pit above Toon Link.
5. This is one of my BIG peeves. Ness is MUCH better than low. In my opinion, I'd put him at the absolute top of mid (IE, over TL and Pit in my second Pit hypothetical). His aerial game and PKT2 is just too rape for no less (and for those who say that a ground game is essential, look at LOLTOPTIERBROKEN Snake. Doesn't seem to need or want an aerial game cause his ground game is so good). With proper tournament repping, I could see him climbing even higher, possibly a place higher or lower than Lucario or Donkey Kong.
6. Luigi and Peach above Bowser (while retaining their positions in relation to one another. IE Luigi > Peach > Bowser). Bowser's got a few buffs, but I'd still put those two over him.
7. Switch up Lucas and Sheik and place Ike where Ness is/used to be in my hypothetical tier list (It should read "Lucas > | cutoff for mid/start of low tier | Sheik > Ike"). Since Ness is (hypothetically) taking a position above TL, everyone should shift down and the void left by Ike should be filled naturally with whoever was above him/would be above him (Peach currently/Bowser ideally).
8. Mario and PT switch. Not a big deal. Wouldn't care if it didn't happen.
9. Samus is the only other character who I have a big problem with when it comes to her placing. Oh no, I'm not going to suggest that she be moved up. I'm suggesting she is WAY TOO HIGH. I mean way. Samus should be within the bottom three, and I personally rate her as the worst character in the game (yes, even below Falcon). She is completely and utterly unplayable and she only has 3 saving graces (and not very good ones at that): d-tilt, zair, and up b. Everything else is decidedly sub-par or (much more commonly) completely terrible. I could go on beating down Samus, but I've done it so much before it's probably not even worth it to re-itterate it from fear of sounding like a broken record. Long story short: Samus for bottom 3.
10. Sonic over Yoshi. Again, not a big deal. Wouldn't care if it never happened.
Okok, so that's a slightly long list of small complaints <_<. But the point still stands that if the tier list were not altered in any way other than my suggestions for Ness, Samus, and arguably Game and Watch, the tier list would still be perfectly passable and fine in my eyes.
Starting from top:
1. Give Meta his own tier. Dead serious. At the very least stick Game and Watch up there with him. MK is on such a completely different level than ROB or Dedede or anyone else that makes up the current top tier it's not even funny.
2. Speaking of Game and Watch, I thought the community finally came to the conclusion that G&W > D3 as a character? Move G&W up. Matter of fact, move him above Snake while you're at it, overrated (but still great!) bastard he is (I could even see both being moved below Falco, but I won't make too big a fuss over that. 5th seems like a very comfortable and accurate position for him). So yeah. G&W up above Snake and Dedede, at the ABSOLUTE least the latter if all you Snakeophiles are too scared to see your precious Snake fall below even Metaknight. He's got the tournament records to justify 2nd.
3. Marth over ROB. That is all. I could live either way though. Both have their merrits.
4. I'd personally switch Olimar's and Pit's positions, or maybe just putting Olimar in Pit's place and moving Pit above Toon Link.
5. This is one of my BIG peeves. Ness is MUCH better than low. In my opinion, I'd put him at the absolute top of mid (IE, over TL and Pit in my second Pit hypothetical). His aerial game and PKT2 is just too rape for no less (and for those who say that a ground game is essential, look at LOLTOPTIERBROKEN Snake. Doesn't seem to need or want an aerial game cause his ground game is so good). With proper tournament repping, I could see him climbing even higher, possibly a place higher or lower than Lucario or Donkey Kong.
6. Luigi and Peach above Bowser (while retaining their positions in relation to one another. IE Luigi > Peach > Bowser). Bowser's got a few buffs, but I'd still put those two over him.
7. Switch up Lucas and Sheik and place Ike where Ness is/used to be in my hypothetical tier list (It should read "Lucas > | cutoff for mid/start of low tier | Sheik > Ike"). Since Ness is (hypothetically) taking a position above TL, everyone should shift down and the void left by Ike should be filled naturally with whoever was above him/would be above him (Peach currently/Bowser ideally).
8. Mario and PT switch. Not a big deal. Wouldn't care if it didn't happen.
9. Samus is the only other character who I have a big problem with when it comes to her placing. Oh no, I'm not going to suggest that she be moved up. I'm suggesting she is WAY TOO HIGH. I mean way. Samus should be within the bottom three, and I personally rate her as the worst character in the game (yes, even below Falcon). She is completely and utterly unplayable and she only has 3 saving graces (and not very good ones at that): d-tilt, zair, and up b. Everything else is decidedly sub-par or (much more commonly) completely terrible. I could go on beating down Samus, but I've done it so much before it's probably not even worth it to re-itterate it from fear of sounding like a broken record. Long story short: Samus for bottom 3.
10. Sonic over Yoshi. Again, not a big deal. Wouldn't care if it never happened.
Okok, so that's a slightly long list of small complaints <_<. But the point still stands that if the tier list were not altered in any way other than my suggestions for Ness, Samus, and arguably Game and Watch, the tier list would still be perfectly passable and fine in my eyes.
Why should Samus be in the bottom three?
The z-air and the dtilt are very good, especially the z-air. It makes her spacing very easy, and the dtilt is good for KOing. Her smash attacks aren't THAT bad either, and edgeguarding with Samus is usually a breeze.
Edit: Samus is not worse than Captain Falcon.
I used to think Link< Ganon, but now that I started using Link, I'm not too sure...but I'd still have to go with Ganon > Link.
The z-air and the dtilt are very good, especially the z-air. It makes her spacing very easy, and the dtilt is good for KOing. Her smash attacks aren't THAT bad either, and edgeguarding with Samus is usually a breeze.
Edit: Samus is not worse than Captain Falcon.
I used to think Link< Ganon, but now that I started using Link, I'm not too sure...but I'd still have to go with Ganon > Link.
I totally agree with the Top tier list. Except for the fact that Falco is #5. Falco runs so slow compared to the other crew and seems to run about the same speed as Link. His recovery is terrible and even though you can do that cheap chain grab trick. Its still not enough to help you win the game. His smash attacks are weak compared to the other characters and the only other good thing about Falco is his refelctor, since he kicks it. I would say he should be more like #15.
I feel that Pit should be lower because hes soo hard to master and use. He doesn't even place well in tournaments. Im really suprised that hes #15. Im also suprised at the fact that Donkey Kong is higher than Diddy Kong and Diddy Kong is a much better character than Donkey in general. Diddy has more versatile in him that Donkey Kong and Donkey is too predictable in my opinion compared to the other cast.
It totally shocked me that Link is #36 because Link has so much potential and players just don't see it. Even though Link lost his Up + B spike from Melee, there were other techniques that replaced Links previous techniques and they are just as effective. Like using the chain edgeguard and he can use the DACUS move effectivly. Also he can use the bow and arrow cancel trick. If more players played like IZAW then maybe they would put Link up a little higher.
Overall, I kinda liked the tier list but I wish Diddy was a low tier character so people wouldnt know him as much =(
I feel that Pit should be lower because hes soo hard to master and use. He doesn't even place well in tournaments. Im really suprised that hes #15. Im also suprised at the fact that Donkey Kong is higher than Diddy Kong and Diddy Kong is a much better character than Donkey in general. Diddy has more versatile in him that Donkey Kong and Donkey is too predictable in my opinion compared to the other cast.
It totally shocked me that Link is #36 because Link has so much potential and players just don't see it. Even though Link lost his Up + B spike from Melee, there were other techniques that replaced Links previous techniques and they are just as effective. Like using the chain edgeguard and he can use the DACUS move effectivly. Also he can use the bow and arrow cancel trick. If more players played like IZAW then maybe they would put Link up a little higher.
Overall, I kinda liked the tier list but I wish Diddy was a low tier character so people wouldnt know him as much =(
Yeah, on second thought, Diddy does need to be higher.
None of Falco's smash attacks are "weak". His USmash and DSmash have pretty nice knockback, and the DSmash sends the opponent at a nice angle. His FSmash is retardedly powerful, and it also has retarded range to boot. I mean...his FSmash is just retardedly good.
Furthermore, ALL of his smash attacks are relatively quick. You also seem to have forgotten the Falco has one of the best projectiles in the game. =/ He has a spike, and with his jab, ftilt, reflector, and laser, his spacing game is pretty good. He's also pretty versatile, considering how he can be "campy", aggressive, or a mix of the both. Falco's only real problem is a his lightweight and his horrible recovery.
And I'm pretty sure Falco is the faster than everyone in the Top Tier besides MK.
None of Falco's smash attacks are "weak". His USmash and DSmash have pretty nice knockback, and the DSmash sends the opponent at a nice angle. His FSmash is retardedly powerful, and it also has retarded range to boot. I mean...his FSmash is just retardedly good.
Furthermore, ALL of his smash attacks are relatively quick. You also seem to have forgotten the Falco has one of the best projectiles in the game. =/ He has a spike, and with his jab, ftilt, reflector, and laser, his spacing game is pretty good. He's also pretty versatile, considering how he can be "campy", aggressive, or a mix of the both. Falco's only real problem is a his lightweight and his horrible recovery.
And I'm pretty sure Falco is the faster than everyone in the Top Tier besides MK.
Falco deserves to be lower but 10 spots, you obviously don't have the grasp of competitive brawl. It is not about potential like you have been saying with pit and link. IT doesn't matter how good something can be which is why tier lists fail so early in games. BEcause everything seems to have potential. And no I main Diddy Kong and I play as Donkey Kong occasionally and they are in the right spots.
Edit: sorry if i come out mean, i just tried to make a point
Edit: sorry if i come out mean, i just tried to make a point
You're trying to argue that one of the best characters in the game should be mid tier? I'm sorry, but where exactly are you getting your facts from? Dunk just explained what made him good, and you said absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. And this is coming from the same person who said that "olimar's camping game is unbeatable." If it was, olimar would be winning every tournament like a madman, now wouldn't he?
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know High Tier = Top Tier. Please forgive me and my simple mind. Not all of us can have the powerful observational skills that you possess.
Please, don't insult my intelligence any more than you already have. It's painfully obvious that you haven't played a Ness of any half-decent skill, and I suppose that's understandable, since he's very rare. However, putting words in my mouth that I said he was top tier material (he's not), even when I mentioned him having the potential, at absolute best, to squeak just within the top 10 or just outside the top 10 (still not top tier), is completely laughable.
But I would like to mention that I think he'll probably end up in middle tier, which is fine. I can see him having some potential for more.
And I think everyone else has wrapped up whatever I wanted to say to CHOMPY.
EDIT: After stupidly and inadvertently deleting the long move write up about Samus I wanted to started out with (I only had the side, up, and down B left), I don't feel like typing that out all over again, so I'll just post a synopsis.
TL;DR, Most characters have a claim to fame, whether they can kill well, combo well, camp well, have an extraordinary grab game ect. Even Ganon can lay claim to fame as killing pretty much anyone in about 4 hits, and Link actually has a fairly good camp game. What can Samus do well? Absolutely nothing. She is not fast, cannot combo well due to her extremely floaty mechanics and slow running speed, isn't a particular powerhouse when it comes to racking up damage, and certainly cannot kill to save her life, noting references to extremely nerfed down and forward smashes, dtilt not being as impressive as I first suspected (if it doesn't kill a Game and Watch, one of the lightest characters in the game, on Lylat Cruise, a level not known for it's notoriously high ceiling, at 130%+ after not landing the move at all that stock so no move degeneration was present, that's not a great kill move, especially with the lag afterwards), super missles, nair, and extremely awkward to hit with bair and dairs. Her camp game outside of using the zair for spacing is crap, as most JABS will go through missles, and don't even mention uncharged charge shot, unless you never want to kill with it until 160%, not to mention the lack of being able to do anything against better campers with reflectors (IE most of them). Her grabs suck, and her actual grab animation is probably one of the worst in the game. She has absolutely no priority and while her heaviness makes her hard to kill off the side, her floatiness makes her extremely suceptable to star KOs. She has no approaches whatsoever, so I guess you really do have to rely on that abysmal "campyness" she has to be effectual at all. She's even outclassed as just being a general annoyance. To sum it up, she is really good at absolutely nothing, everything she can possibly do is done much better by numerous ammounts of castmates. I will give you that Captain Falcon is even more helpless than she is, but for every other cast member, I could list at least one redeeming quality about them that makes them worth using above the rest of the cast. I cannot say the same for Samus (and Captain Falcon). She is just that bad. I would have gone much more into detail had I still had my original breakdown, but I'm going to leave it at this.
Also, tournament rankings, lousy match ups*, and an extremely shallow metagame don't help either.
*: Yes, that match up chart generally hasn't been very reliable. However, it has gotten much better (but nowhere near perfect) since it's first incarnation. Originally, I had tried to find a more detailed and more reliable page dedicated to Samus' matchups, but they simply don't exist at this moment and time. Looking at the matchups for just Samus on here though, I think it'll be hard to argue against the numerous X marks she has in her row if you just use your own reasoning.
I don't think yoshi should be that low and captain falcon is defiantly the worst character, gannodorf shouldn't be at the bottom.
If charizard was a single player, pt would be higher.
I'm surprised falco got that high i didn't think he would make it that far up.
Also i think falco's Fsmash sucks, it comes out to slow and can be punished, all other smashes are quick but lack some killing power.
If charizard was a single player, pt would be higher.
I'm surprised falco got that high i didn't think he would make it that far up.
Also i think falco's Fsmash sucks, it comes out to slow and can be punished, all other smashes are quick but lack some killing power.
Is that the blackest pot calling the kettle black? I am pretty sure it is. However it seems the pot is wrong since the kettle actually does have a good grasp of competitive brawl in this case?
Also should I make several comments on how bad your grammar, and spelling are? I mean everyone makes mistakes while typing, but you don't even bother to fix them. Clearly you don't have a grasp on competitive writing :naughty:
Also you are so wrong about Olimar. His camping game is beatable by many. Metaknight, Peach, Luigi, and others have moves that both pressure Oli with high priority, and knock away the Pikmin.
Peach is also known to rape Olimar since the entire Olimar board is in agreement that she has a 70:30 advantage against him.
Olimar has some problems with many of the high teir characters, and has huge issues with Metaknight. These problems prevent him from being any higher than mid tier.
They're mostly ballistic over the fact that the reasoning that SBR gives (I haven't seen it myself) for how the tier list was constructed doesn't seem to hold, as otherwise Sonic would be higher than Bowser (though Bowser would be lower than he is right now). Some, however, are just completely convinced that Sonic is an overall beast for some reason.
My fault I meant to say high tier. And you guys are misunderstand what I am writing.
How did they think he'd be anything other than Low? I've been thinking Sonic would be Low since release.
Edit: Oh reasoning. You can't really apply pure statistics to tiers. Some sort of logical thought has to be applied as well.
Dk seems to be REALLY good in this game to be honest. He has a ton of range, a ton of power, a lot of speed, and one of the best grabs in the game (cargo grab, F-grab). He just has the problems of being an enormous target with crappy recovery though.
Plus, he's been doing alot better in tournaments than toon link.
Why did they put the mother children right next to each other? I hope they just didn't identify them as clones who belong in the same spot...
DK is so high because he supposedly has favorable matchups against all of Snake/MK/G&W. That's not to say he's an otherwise bad character either.
lucas owns ness olol
Oh TH, buddy buddy buddy... ZAir is good enough on its own that I can't believe Samus is the worst character in the game. At the least, she does a generally good job of walling large (tall) characters and remains one of the toughest kills in the game. Since weight plays a significant factor in Brawl's vertical survivability, Samus is still in the top third in that regard, about tied with ROB, and she's probably the heaviest character in the game with a "good" recovery. She can surely make a case to be better than the likes of Link or Ganondorf as well, and Yoshi also has obvious weaknesses (namely being the one character with a worse grab and a worse roll than her, let alone his lack of shield paly).
If anything, PKMN TRNR is too high. ;[ It really doesn't even matter how good the pokémon are individually, as they can simply be waited out to force fatigue (and/or free Smashes via switching) during which they all become much weaker. It's like being down 50% with 0:30 left in the match and you have to go ultra-aggressive to have any chance of winning. It's your only shot but you'll probably just leave yourself more open to counterattack and lose by even more. PKMN TRNR has to play like this constantly, as his opponents would be all too willing to let him patiently wait for an opening like any other character and just wait for fatigue to set in before showing their hand. And Squirtle is the only one fast enough to really give chase against a patient opponent...
lucas owns ness olol
Oh TH, buddy buddy buddy... ZAir is good enough on its own that I can't believe Samus is the worst character in the game. At the least, she does a generally good job of walling large (tall) characters and remains one of the toughest kills in the game. Since weight plays a significant factor in Brawl's vertical survivability, Samus is still in the top third in that regard, about tied with ROB, and she's probably the heaviest character in the game with a "good" recovery. She can surely make a case to be better than the likes of Link or Ganondorf as well, and Yoshi also has obvious weaknesses (namely being the one character with a worse grab and a worse roll than her, let alone his lack of shield paly).
If anything, PKMN TRNR is too high. ;[ It really doesn't even matter how good the pokémon are individually, as they can simply be waited out to force fatigue (and/or free Smashes via switching) during which they all become much weaker. It's like being down 50% with 0:30 left in the match and you have to go ultra-aggressive to have any chance of winning. It's your only shot but you'll probably just leave yourself more open to counterattack and lose by even more. PKMN TRNR has to play like this constantly, as his opponents would be all too willing to let him patiently wait for an opening like any other character and just wait for fatigue to set in before showing their hand. And Squirtle is the only one fast enough to really give chase against a patient opponent...
Sure Ness and Lucas are fun and could turn out very interesting in tournaments...
Too bad characters like Marth have infinite grabs&pummel on them by simply grabbing and mashing A
I'm surprised people try to defend Ness and Lucas' position without even mentioning this bullshit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po quite a few characters have almost-infinites this way (Marth being the most talked about) and those who doesn't can freely follow up with tilts or other free hits.
With Marth roaming tournaments no one want to risk this happening to them. I just hope that broken crap get banned, or at least that it will be shunned upon since it nearly shut down two characters completely.
Too bad characters like Marth have infinite grabs&pummel on them by simply grabbing and mashing A
I'm surprised people try to defend Ness and Lucas' position without even mentioning this bullshit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po quite a few characters have almost-infinites this way (Marth being the most talked about) and those who doesn't can freely follow up with tilts or other free hits.
With Marth roaming tournaments no one want to risk this happening to them. I just hope that broken crap get banned, or at least that it will be shunned upon since it nearly shut down two characters completely.
thats bull shit, your not going to wait out each of them for two minutes and its not like they have a problem killing. Also no competitive players would switch pokemon when there that open; anyone who you've seen do that is not playing seriously or not competitive player. PT is good enough in my opinion to at least make it to mid tier.
LOL I think Diddy has a 60:40 advantage on campy snakes. They are really easy imo. They are so predictable with their ftilts/jabs and shield grenades. Bananas for the first two and grabs for the second. You might even get the banana choke grab if you plan it right.
But olimars......
His eggs go through the tornado, and Yoshi's pivot grab is insane. He is the fastest characters in the game (so far) because of the DT AT.
And PKMN trainer may be bad. But if your opponent forces you to approach, they have options. Ivysaur (not familiar with that much) can Razor leaf and Jab, Squirtle has pretty high priority aerial moves and Charizard has teh PH1R3!!!! I still think he should be lower.
But olimars......
Yoshi has a grab release to spike on 13 different characters including metaknight (easiest of them all), snake, and falco. Yoshi might have a hard time around Falco, but with this technique Yoshi might actually be favored in all 3 matchups.
His eggs go through the tornado, and Yoshi's pivot grab is insane. He is the fastest characters in the game (so far) because of the DT AT.
And PKMN trainer may be bad. But if your opponent forces you to approach, they have options. Ivysaur (not familiar with that much) can Razor leaf and Jab, Squirtle has pretty high priority aerial moves and Charizard has teh PH1R3!!!! I still think he should be lower.
Says the person with the random comma.
I agree with most of the list. Ness could be a bit higher, since he is really good, but getting grabbed by Marth can do a whole lot.
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