Link is low?! That's sad, I've owned with Link since Melee =[. Too bad Falco is like a "counter" due to the fact that link needs to get to close range to strike him, which Falco can do that "speed dash" attack, and If link trys to go on the far end so that the speed dash attack would go too long and leave Falco vulnerable to dieing on the side, he has a reflective sheild to resist and reflect bows and arrows, boomerangs, etc. With being able to shoot his gun at a speedy rate and stop link from shooting an arrow, and the reflective shield is quick enough to dispatch and use the speed dash on link before he can get touched. Also, with the quick dash, the only way link can survive notable damage is by using the shield or be predicted the way falco will go, with only about a 20-25% damage with a quick smash attack. With that, when links shield is gone and his damage is quite in the hundreds, falco can just send him to the sky with that backflip attack. Oh well..
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Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion
- Thread starter Firestorm
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i would have thought ike would have been higher. he has an awsome smash chain, his moves are as powerful as regular smashes without charging, he has a devastating final smash capable of killing many foes at once, his quick draw kills good approach characters, his impalement kills arial characters and when used properly, you can even use windows to charge smashes and hit for devastating power capable of OHKOing many light characters. plus he is awsome.
sonic should be way higher. his speed is not only unsurpassed, it is controllable and can be used offensively and defensively to dodge attacks. if you use his variety of spin and roll attacks to cause rapid damage, you can easily kill many characters by finishing with his downward dash. his final smash is one of if not the best because after three hits you kill most characters and only after one if they are on low health. best of all, he is the most arrogant character with the most taunting taunts.
these are my best characters and i conquered many gamestop and other tourneys with them, they are true devastaters when used correctly.but hey, i still dont see how jiggly is useable in battles unless it is a computer partner, so i guess there are always certain characters only certain people can master (*cough*maku*cough*jiggly*cough*)
EDIT: yoshi king,is yoshi your best character?
sonic should be way higher. his speed is not only unsurpassed, it is controllable and can be used offensively and defensively to dodge attacks. if you use his variety of spin and roll attacks to cause rapid damage, you can easily kill many characters by finishing with his downward dash. his final smash is one of if not the best because after three hits you kill most characters and only after one if they are on low health. best of all, he is the most arrogant character with the most taunting taunts.
these are my best characters and i conquered many gamestop and other tourneys with them, they are true devastaters when used correctly.but hey, i still dont see how jiggly is useable in battles unless it is a computer partner, so i guess there are always certain characters only certain people can master (*cough*maku*cough*jiggly*cough*)
EDIT: yoshi king,is yoshi your best character?
Sorry one winged angel, but including Final Smashes when discussing competitive-level Brawl play is... well, anyways, Ike is low because his recovery is easily gimpable, not to mentioned downright poor against most characters' down-smashes, which send him at a 0 to -45 degree angle... making it impossible to recover. He has no projectile, moves incredibly slowly, and can't do much against faster characters such as Falco or Pikachu. If one is moving so slowly that you cannot keep up with an opponent, it doesn't matter how hard you hit.
Yoshi is my best and favourite Nintendo character to play as.
Yoshi is my best and favourite Nintendo character to play as.
ok, ike has poor recovery and low speed. but he also has quick draw, a oveset designed to keep him from worrying about recovery(such as his upward b attack) and windows possible with each of his strikes. falco or pika starts to move, i press forward and a and their ass is mine.
also yoshi is my favorite nintendo character, but one of my hardest to play as
also yoshi is my favorite nintendo character, but one of my hardest to play as
What?
As YK just said, If ikes sent downwards at an angle, he's probably not making it back to the stage; quick draw isn't going to help that. It isn't really that good of a recovery move considering someone just has to airdodge it to gimp your recovery and send you into helpless mode.
As for your analagy... you know characters can sheild right? All the Falco/Pika needs to do is sheild you forward tilt (or forward smash since you just said "forward and A") and then start chain grapping you while your stuck in the lag.
or
The Falco/Pikachu can be SMART, never come towards you, and start firing their projectiles at you forceing you to approach since Ike has no defenses against projectiles.
ok, but then i just jump and upward special to do some damage to them if they start shooting projectiles. and no, quick draw wont help recover but upward b will if you are pressing on directional stick towards the stage when you get hit. also, so pika/falco shields, they attack i counter, which is unblockable i believe
You jump and Up-B to get damage in? Again, either character can see aether coming from a mile away, shield, grab you in lag, start shooting their projectiles again. Yes, any character can DI a hit, but If Ike's launched at a downward angle, he'll have trouble recovering. Aether has quite limited horizontal distance.
As for your counter bit.. first of all, your in the lag of your attack after that move. Your cooling down from your attack and can do nothing while your opponent can do anything. You don't have enough time to counter. Besides, Counter doesn't do anything if your grabbed.
this entire concept is situational. as i said, ikes movepool is designed to prevent these things so as not to be fuck food. (thank you, i didnt know that it was called aether /=)but besides that, i avoid using ike against falco/pika, i use sonic for fast speedy gonzalez characters
You can't just switch the matchup because it suits your argument- Ike is low tier because if he is forced against characters such as Falco or Pikachu, or really any character with a half-decent projectile, he will likely lose. His recovery is poor and easily gimped, he cannot approach well without taking 10-20% in damage, and as mentioned, his normal attacks beyond the basic AAA jab are way too slow and easily shielded against, leaving him wide open. Trust me, I love him as one of the best gay video game characters ever created, but in Brawl, he's just not that good.
yet dk is way above him
DK has massive range, a good grab game, and most of his moves surprisingly have little startup or cooldown. He's also one of the heaviest of the heavyweights (Ike is mid-range in weight, I believe? Still, even getting smashed out far enough will spell doom for his recovery) and his recovery, while having poor vertical range, gives excellent horizontal range, which is what heavyweights like DK need for recovery (generally it is easier to smash them off the screen vertically, Surgo proved this a few pages back).
ok, seeing as how no one agrees with me, i am going to give a different example of how a low tier character has been used well. maku is the current number one smogon brawler, and maku uses mostly jiggly puff. if jiggly puff can be used not just well, but kick ass well i am sure that ike and sonic could. i know, i do it all the time. i also rarely lose on the wifi battles using sonic and ike, so the point that it doesnt matter if you win at gamestop tourneys doesnt matter doesnt change the fact that sonic and ike can still be used well.
addressing yoshi king, you present all valid but counterable points. ike should be used to appoach using quick draw, or better yet not at all. yes ike has poor recovery, but as far as i am concerned if you believe you know how to use ike you should only have to worry abour falling into the lower area of the screen. pikachu and falco will indeed eat ike alive, for i have tried and got my ass kicked. if you are getting beat by projectiles, then just roll until you reach whoever is using the projectiles. perhaps once i get my wifi working i will face all of you, but until then i cannot prove that ike and sonic can be used well enough to at least do well against most any character.
on a final note, remember if jiggly can be used well so can any other character.
addressing yoshi king, you present all valid but counterable points. ike should be used to appoach using quick draw, or better yet not at all. yes ike has poor recovery, but as far as i am concerned if you believe you know how to use ike you should only have to worry abour falling into the lower area of the screen. pikachu and falco will indeed eat ike alive, for i have tried and got my ass kicked. if you are getting beat by projectiles, then just roll until you reach whoever is using the projectiles. perhaps once i get my wifi working i will face all of you, but until then i cannot prove that ike and sonic can be used well enough to at least do well against most any character.
on a final note, remember if jiggly can be used well so can any other character.
yes, but apparently some of the lower tiers, when mastered, are better than the higher tiers
Minwu, I main Ness and secondary Yoshi. I personally beleive that Ness does not belong in low tier, but even if he is, what makes you think that a good ness player can't beat another player that uses a high tier character? Even when the matchup is not on my favor (i.e vs Marth) I still manage to do well vs other good players who use high tiers. Using low tiers is not a waste of time, about 70% of Smogon's top 15 uses low tier characters.
Also, I agree with one winged angel, low tiers have the potential to beat high tier characters. :P
Also, I agree with one winged angel, low tiers have the potential to beat high tier characters. :P
That's an issue of skill, not tiers. Maku beats us because he is incredibly skilled with Jigglypuff; Dunk beats us with whomever he feels like using because he is incredibly skilled in general; Colin beats us with Ness because he is incredibly skilled at using and abusing PK thunder in tandem with Ness's other abilities.
If I'm the best player in the world, far better than anyone else, obviously it won't matter who I'm using because I'm so good it doesn't matter who I use. The same applies here. People beat other people because they are more skilled. Skill will always win out over tiers.
Additionally some lower-tiered characters (Sheik) will have an advantage over higher-tiered characters (King Dedede), but that's also just an issue of individual matchups.
thankyou shaky. hell, i use mostly ike, then meta, then sonic. i do equally well with each. in my opinion, low tiers are low tier because they are harder to use, not worse. but if you master those hard to control characters, then you can truly be devastating. by the way, i comemorate you shaky. i cant use ness well, i use lucas better out of those two. nice going and nice avatar :)
and yoshi king, i kinda have to agree with you, it has a lot to do with skill. and shouldnt dunk be #1 tier if he is that good?
and yoshi king, i kinda have to agree with you, it has a lot to do with skill. and shouldnt dunk be #1 tier if he is that good?
huh, well i guess it all depends on weather or not hes just as good as maku with jiggly. anyone as good as maku with that impossible being deserves the top spot
Yeah, it's not the best idea to bring the low tier character X can be in a tier higher argument without conclusive proof of better tourny results or some whacked out technique they can use that has been discovered. Ike's mid right? Or has there been some random change nobody told me about?
I also would like to argue that not all of Ike's move are incredibly slow. Theres the whole spacing issue with his aerials and that his nair has about two frames of lag upon landing while hitting every area around him. Land moves however are quite slow so I guess I would agree there? Dunno, I think it's more about perspective of who your fighting.
I also would like to argue that not all of Ike's move are incredibly slow. Theres the whole spacing issue with his aerials and that his nair has about two frames of lag upon landing while hitting every area around him. Land moves however are quite slow so I guess I would agree there? Dunno, I think it's more about perspective of who your fighting.
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