np: UU - A New Beginning

[Tleilax]

Should we deem this combination "broken" (I am yet to be convinced) then it is Walrein who should be banned. No other Pokemon are potentially broken under Hail. If we ban Abomasnow, Walrein will see little use unless your opponant wants to use Snover, if we ban Walrein, Abomasnow may still see use in UU, which would be nice.

If use of Abomasnow makes other Pokemon broken, who would be more ban worthy, the Pokemon broken because of Abomasnow, or Abomasnow for making them broken. Auto-hail is lethal in nUU because it is the hardest weather to work around. With Rain and Sun there are large benefits in power, but they are going to end in a few turns, so they are more than managable. If you go with auto-Sandstorm, you are essentially playing with a team of 5, since after setting up the storm Hippoppotas is dead weight, and if the other team uses weather after he's down you lose your advanatage. Abomasnow not only gives auto-weather, which it shares with only it's pre-evo and Hippoppotas in this environment, it's also a totally viable Pokemon, so you're not gimping yourself to set up a weather condition.

In regards to it's support, it's not just Walrein, although Walrein is arguably the best recipient of Hail support available. Glaceon gains, along with Snow Cloak, 100% accuracy Blizzard. Very little likes taking hits like this. If one is willing to sacrifice speed for power, Specs will devastate almost anything that switches in. And there is no penalty for them using this strategy. Unless you have a very bulky Ice resist, it's going to hit, and it's going to hurt.

Any Snow Cloak user can work to abuse it and become a major annoyance. While many would not like to rely on it, Support Froslass is an example of what can be done with it. With that evasion, support like Thunder Wave and Confuse Ray, and Spikes, or even Substitute or Brightpowder, Froslass becomes a major hinderance to a team. It can lay down Spikes, status support, and stack Hail damage with an extra safety cushion. I'm not claiming this is fail-safe, and it's not the best option. It's quite risky. It is, however, potentially very effective.

I think that Abomasnow is very much worth a look. As a singular Pokemon, it is not a large threat. However, it provides incredibly effective team support that requires it to simply appear in the battle to potentially last the whole match. It's a support option nothing else can equate to. And as such it is worth a consideration.

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

First off, weather moves such as Sandstorm and Hail are definately not viable. My reasoning for this is simply that you can get a maximum of eight turns out of them (I believe it is seven if you include the turn you set it up, but I cannot be sure of this, can anyone confirm?) While this may be a viable strategy for offenive based weather teams (Sun and Rain, and it is "just about" long enough for them), it really does not cut it for Stall based weather teams such as Hail and Sandstorm. Imagine StallRein, it needs to break it's Sub Protect cycle 6 times (because I doubt it wouldn't carry Leftovers) to keep itself going.

Hail and Sandstorm are not viable options because of the benefits they provide. Rain and Sun are offensive in nature. They make attacks more powerful, increase speed, etc. They give an instant payoff. Such is not the case with Hail and Sandstorm. They are more support oriented in their use, with Evasion, Ice Body, Special Defense boost, etc. They are benefits meant to take effect over time. Many Pokemon that benefit from the effect do not benefit from setting it up themselves. That's why Sandstream is so good in OU, yet Sandstorm is not considered an option in UU, and why auto-Hail is so good.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Has anyone considered Registeel being broken? People tend naturally to pick out the sweepers as broken, but I personally have had trouble making a good team without Registeel. Its offenses are fairly low sure, but it doesn't need to invest EV's in defensive stats anyway.Registeel's defenses are so high that it is almost impossible to OHKO without a STAB super effective attack and even those usually will fail.

Pure Steel is really strong typing due to all the resists, and Registeel takes very little damage from attacks it's weak to. I would say it's comparable to Steelix, only with Twave and special defense equal to its defense.

Thing is regi-steel is set-up bait for a lot of enemy pokes too. Sub-Punch Users like Hariyama and Azumarril come most to mind, since Registeel has no chance of breaking their sub in one hit (barring thunderpunch on azum, but all regis have to carry earthquake for raikou plus support moves). Also, without roar (like Steelix), it is prone to Umbreon trapping . . .

 

[pi face]

any decent Mean Look Pass Umbreon will have Taunt, though.

 

[Bologo]

Heh, thanks for the comments about Regirock guys. :P

Also, on Registeel, I've used him on both of my new UU teams, and he honestly sucks. I've found that all he does is sit there, Stealth Rock, hit a few things with his attack and then Explode. He's a pretty good check to stuff like Mismagius (Iron Head), Raikou (with Earthquake), Shaymin (with Ice Punch), and it's also very good at taking Staraptor's Returns. Unfortunately, the only thing he checks better than Steelix is Mismagius thanks to the higher Special Defense. Otherwise, the only thing I really see him doing better than Steelix is Curse, since there are lots of good paralyzers, exploders and such in UU.

I chose to take him off of my newer team though, because he just wasn't doing much besides sitting there and trying to status things.

 

[Imran]

@ Tleilax. Oops, I realise that my post was a little unclear with regards for the second point. I meant to say "the weather moves Sandstorm and Hail" as opposed to "weather moves such as Sandstorm and Hail." When you read the paragraph with that wording instead of the others, it makes a lot more sense lol, sorry for the confusion there.

As for Hail abusers, the only one that I really would go as far as to say could be broken is Walrein. Scarf Glaceon can be a problem, but we have bulky fighting types and in general Fire types will do well against it. Technitop is still quite common. I don't feel Snock Cloak is "enough," if you see what I mean, it is annoying, as compared to Sand Veil on Chomp which was just "too much" on top of everything else. In short I label everything in a Hail Team that is not Walrein "comfortably UU," they are threats, but not something that I / we cannot deal with. It is for that reason that I suggest that we should remove Walrein and not Abomasnow, should we deem Hail teams broken. With the main threat of the Hail team gone (and I doubt people think there are things more threatening on a Hail team than a fully set up Walrein with Toxic Spikes etc...) then it is the final effect that should be banned not the cause, especially seeing as Abomasnow actually helps Glaceon and Froslass in the new UU, diversifying the metagame even more. This is, of course, one man's opinion, but it is simply the way I feel on the matter. I have presented my case, and people can agree or disagree with me as they wish =D

Sorry, I think I summed it up in what I said previously:

While this may be a viable strategy for offenive based weather teams, it really does not cut it for Stall based weather teams such as Hail and Sandstorm.

I agree that what you said still stands, but I have already stated that.

 

[Tleilax]

. Oops, I realise that my post was a little unclear with regards for the second point. I meant to say "the weather moves Sandstorm and Hail" as opposed to "weather moves such as Sandstorm and Hail." When you read the paragraph with that wording instead of the others, it makes a lot more sense lol, sorry for the confusion there.

I think what I said still stands. Rain and Sun are perfectly viable because of the tremendous offensive boost they provide for those turns. With proper Pokemon to take advantage of it, that's several turns spent with easier, more powerful sweeping. Conversely, Hail and Sandstorm are not viable because they do so little to aid a sweep. Hence why you only see those when auto-activated, and never on a moveset.

As for Hail abusers, the only one that I really would go as far as to say could be broken is Walrein. Scarf Glaceon can be a problem, but we have bulky fighting types and in general Fire types will do well against it. Technitop is still quite common. I don't feel Snock Cloak is "enough," if you see what I mean, it is annoying, as compared to Sand Veil on Chomp which was just "too much" on top of everything else. In short I label everything in a Hail Team that is not Walrein "comfortably UU," they are threats, but not something that I / we cannot deal with. It is for that reason that I suggest that we should remove Walrein and not Abomasnow, should we deem Hail teams broken. With the main threat of the Hail team gone (and I doubt people think there are things more threatening on a Hail team than a fully set up Walrein with Toxic Spikes etc...) then it is the final effect that should be banned not the cause, especially seeing as Abomasnow actually helps Glaceon and Froslass in the new UU, diversifying the metagame even more. This is, of course, one man's opinion, but it is simply the way I feel on the matter. I have presented my case, and people can agree or disagree with me as they wish =D

Why should we ban Walrein if the only reason he's tough to deal with is because he has support? In the Portrait on an Uber thread, it was decided that a Pokemon can be broken if it provides support that potentially makes another Pokemon broken. Without Abomasnow's Snow Warning, Walrein can't StallRein. The other effects, such are Glaceon's brutal 100% accurate Blizzard, are removed as well. It is the support that makes the Pokemon I mentioned tough, not the Pokemon themselves. The support that makes them so should go first, rather than the other way around to keep the support.

As a note, I'm not calling Abomasnow broken. However, it is something that caught my eye, and I believe should be looked at.

 

[Heysup]

Im glad to see people are coming around.

For the people saying "Wallrein is the broken pokemon, not Abomasnow!" that is incredibly untrue.

Without Abomasnow, Glaceon, Froslass and others are regulated, they still have UU-like Stats, and an incredible offensive type. Abomasnow adds too these pokemons aspects, and makes their be more luck, and makes the metagame less competetive relying so much on luck, especially as i said earlier from moves like Stone-Edge and Fire Blast. Froslass leads are still incredibly Viable, they are annoying as hell. BUT they are beatable.

The other thing, is Blizzard is WAY too strong. That is about it, just way too strong for a type like this. Fighting is understandable, with the Defense drops, and its able to be immuned.

Walrein is a perfectly viable regular tank. It learns Encore, and Roar, Toxic, and has Great Defensive stats.

For all of the people that are saying, "Oh, i just use Hippopotas, to counter it." THAT DOESNT WORK, EVER. Hippopotas will die LONG before abomasnow, especially with Ice Attacks Flying around. Its also Useless minus making SS. SS teams are definately beatable as well.

Walrein isnt the problem, its the Endless Hail. Froslass and Glaceon, and anything that learns Blizzard are still rediculously broken in hail, even if Wallrein is banned.


Also, I'm also highly in favour of Banning: Raikou, Shaymin and possibly Registeel(which would result in Missy being banned).

 

[maddog]

Has anyone considered Registeel being broken? People tend naturally to pick out the sweepers as broken, but I personally have had trouble making a good team without Registeel. Its offenses are fairly low sure, but it doesn't need to invest EV's in defensive stats anyway.Registeel's defenses are so high that it is almost impossible to OHKO without a STAB super effective attack and even those usually will fail.

Pure Steel is really strong typing due to all the resists, and Registeel takes very little damage from attacks it's weak to. I would say it's comparable to Steelix, only with Twave and special defense equal to its defense.

I would agree with this honestly.

As for me, I think that Gallade, Raikou, Spiritomb, Strapator, Milotic, Missy, and Shaymin and a few others might make BL. Remember the size of BL? If something is broken, we should ban it, and all these are showing that.

 

[Bologo]

Im glad to see people are coming around.

For the people saying "Wallrein is the broken pokemon, not Abomasnow!" that is incredibly untrue.

Without Abomasnow, Glaceon, Froslass and others are regulated, they still have UU-like Stats, and an incredible offensive type. Abomasnow adds too these pokemons aspects, and makes their be more luck, and makes the metagame less competetive relying so much on luck, especially as i said earlier from moves like Stone-Edge and Fire Blast. Froslass leads are still incredibly Viable, they are annoying as hell. BUT they are beatable.

The other thing, is Blizzard is WAY too strong. That is about it, just way too strong for a type like this. Fighting is understandable, with the Defense drops, and its able to be immuned.

Walrein is a perfectly viable regular tank. It learns Encore, and Roar, Toxic, and has Great Defensive stats.

For all of the people that are saying, "Oh, i just use Hippopotas, to counter it." THAT DOESNT WORK, EVER. Hippopotas will die LONG before abomasnow, especially with Ice Attacks Flying around. Its also Useless minus making SS. SS teams are definately beatable as well.

Walrein isnt the problem, its the Endless Hail. Froslass and Glaceon, and anything that learns Blizzard are still rediculously broken in hail, even if Wallrein is banned.

You do realize that if Abomasnow is banned, people can still use Snover, right? Is Snover broken as well then? It still allows Stallrein, Blizzard, Glaceon and Froslass to be just as deadly.

Also, I'm also highly in favour of Banning: Raikou, Shaymin and possibly Registeel(which would result in Missy being banned).

Why?

 

[Tleilax]

You do realize that if Abomasnow is banned, people can still use Snover, right? Is Snover broken as well then? It still allows Stallrein, Blizzard, Glaceon and Froslass to be just as deadly.

I don't have a problem with Snover, because, like Hippoppotas, it's an awful Pokemon. A team would essentially be making a 5 Pokemon team, which would be an incredible disadvantage, even with the Hail support. I don't like Abomasnow because it gives non-suicidal auto weather, something noting else in UU can hope for, and can still hold it's own as a singular Pokemon.

 

[Imran]

Sorry, I think I summed it up in what I said previously:

While this may be a viable strategy for offenive based weather teams, it really does not cut it for Stall based weather teams such as Hail and Sandstorm.

I agree that what you said still stands, but I have already stated that.

How can we say that Blizzard is way too strong, when we still viably use Thunder and Rain and Fire Blast in common battle conditions? Fire Blast does hit 85% of the time, thats not enough to reliable hope that it misses say 1 in 4 times to win a game. HeYsUp, you have not convinced me in the slightest that anything other than Walrein is potentially broken. Just because Blizzard doesn't have a type that is immune to it doesn't mean that it is the be all and end all. Just because you don't like dealing with it does not make it broken. There are numerous Bulky Waters that can take the hit easily and then Toxic and Recover stall or simply chip away with STAB Surfs, recovering where nessecary. Again the freeze factor is an annoyance, but not one that we can't get over, as simply staying in hoping for a freeze is a silly thing to be doing anyway. Resisting the hit will most likely force a switch giving you a free turn to take the upper hand. Blakizen / Typhlosion also make "decent" Blizzard absorbers should you really need to resort to that. In short, you are making the claim that endless Hail makes more than one Pokemon broken, and you are yet to convince me of that.

As for what Tleilax said, the portrait of an Uber topic does indeed agree with you, that it is the support Pokemon that is the issue. I must stress, however, that came about as a way of classifying the status of Pokemon such as Mew and Wobbuffet who can provide a large amount of support to make a large amount of Pokemon broken. the definition is:

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

To me this seems to imply that it needs to make more than one Pokemon broken, I don't see why we should ban Abomasnow, and make a multitude of Hail based Pokemon useless when they actually fit quite nicely into the new UU metagame, as I stand by my point that Froslass and Glaceon are "strong," but not "unmanagable." So if there is only one Pokemon that is potentially broken, I don't see why we should remove Abomasnow. I'll see if I can simply this to clearly show you my point:

Ban Abomasnow: Walrein + Glalie + Froslass useage suffers dramatically
Ban Walrein: Hail teams will suffer a little, but the entire concept won't be unviable

I fail to see how banning Abomasnow, and completely ruining the concept of Hail in UU is going to benefit the metagame by making it more diverse. Why should we lose one potential strategy from the myriad that makes this UU tier such a fun one to play? I agree that my argument does not exactly follow the guidelines of the Policy Review thread, it instead highlights a case in which only one Pokemon is potentially broken, and there is only one Pokemon to support it. It does not fit under the condidtions highlighted in that thread, as this case is not really discussed in that thread, and in my eyes, from the evidence I have shown, I would be against banning Abomasnow. I believe having a decent viable weather effect just makes the metagame more fun to play.

 

[Tleilax]

As for what Tleilax said, the portrait of an Uber topic does indeed agree with you, that it is the support Pokemon that is the issue. I must stress, however, that came about as a way of classifying the status of Pokemon such as Mew and Wobbuffet who can provide a large amount of support to make a large amount of Pokemon broken. the definition is:
To me this seems to imply that it needs to make more than one Pokemon broken, I don't see why we should ban Abomasnow, and make a multitude of Hail based Pokemon useless when they actually fit quite nicely into the new UU metagame, as I stand by my point that Froslass and Glaceon are "strong," but not "unmanagable." So if there is only one Pokemon that is potentially broken, I don't see why we should remove Abomasnow. I'll see if I can simply this to clearly show you my point:

Ban Abomasnow: Walrein + Glalie + Froslass useage suffers dramatically
Ban Walrein: Hail teams will suffer a little, but the entire concept won't be unviable

I fail to see how banning Abomasnow, and completely ruining the concept of Hail in UU is going to benefit the metagame by making it more diverse. Why should we lose one potential strategy from the myriad that makes this UU tier such a fun one to play? I agree that my argument does not exactly follow the guidelines of the Policy Review thread, it instead highlights a case in which only one Pokemon is potentially broken, and there is only one Pokemon to support it. It does not fit under the condidtions highlighted in that thread, as this case is not really discussed in that thread, and in my eyes, from the evidence I have shown, I would be against banning Abomasnow. I believe having a decent viable weather effect just makes the metagame more fun to play

Since when are Froslass and Glaceon useless? I've seen plenty of Froslass leads that lend a lot to a match without Hail going up, and Glaceon is still quite powerful. Hail only enhances them by giving them free evasion and a 120 BP STAB with 100% accuracy.

I'm more than comfortable with allowing Snover in UU. As I stated in my reply to Bologo, it puts auto-Hail in the same boat as auto-Sandstorm. You can have it up, but it's an all-in strategy, since it's easy to lose your weather changer. Right now Hail is the only condition that stays up the whole match barring intervention by opposing weather condtions that can be set up reliably. Abomasnow gives a team a permenant advanatage without sacrificing itself, something nothing else in nUU can do. It's also perfectly viable even when not setting up Hail, since it can chase out bulky waters like Milotic and Slowbro, easily eating their attacks and threatening with STAB Wood Hammer, along with STAB Blizzard and/or Leech Seed support.

We can disagree all day, and I doubt we will change each other's positions. However, I will stand by mine until someone shows me what I believe to show my case wrong. I'm open to it, I'm not set in stone.

 

[Chou Toshio]

You do realize that if Abomasnow is banned, people can still use Snover, right? Is Snover broken as well then? It still allows Stallrein, Blizzard, Glaceon and Froslass to be just as deadly.



Why?

I have no qualm banning snover and hippopatas too. Forcing all non-weather teams to carry a rain dance/sunny day user (that doesn't even help them) just to get rid of the weather is a bit ridiculous.

edit:

Froslass-- definitely one of this tier's notable pokemon, even without hail. Good speed, typing, and a host of spin options make it a terrific lead or support poke.

Glaceon-- 130 sp.ATK STAB Ice Beam will never leave the metagame. 130 sp.ATK STAB 100% accurate Blizzard is . . . a bitch.

 

[Heysup]

Snover will likely be banned if not at the same time, soon after. The point that the Uber discussion made, is true for ALL pokemon, including NFEs.

Registeel can easily be banned because of the other reason pokemon like Lugia are Uber, it is able to consistantly Wall a significant amount of the metagame. Im not saying i would vote it out though.


I'd Also like to add: Abomasnow counters very dangerous threats, such as Raikou, Torterra, Altaria and the like.

 

[Steinhauser]

Just a few reminders:

• Don't be afraid to try new strategies with new Pokémon.
• If you feel a Pokémon is broken, prove it by using it a lot to win.
• Don't forget to use the Pokémon that used to be UU, as well as NFEs!
• Don't be stuck in the mindset of "Old UU". This is in regards to things such as Perma-Weather.

All I see is theorymon and whining. How many of the Hail decriers here have even used a hail team? If you have, why aren't you #1 on the ladder?

If Hail was so good it would be way more common than it is.

Why is everyone so ban-happy? Nothing needs banning yet. It's only been 3 weeks so far.

 

[Vrolok]

Your argument that Abom will be banned so Snover will be too is incorrect. All NFE's are being tested regardless of theorymon (excluding Wynaut). Gabite evolves into Garchomp, a pokemon too strong for OU, yet it is still allowed in UU. As others have mentioned Hippopotas is a terrible weather starter for its stats, so you essentially start with 5 pokes. Why the rush to ban Snover too, when it too can make you start with just 5 pokes?

Everyone is way too ban happy.

 

[Naxte]

Because Abomasnow would be being banned under the Support definition of an Uber (or in this case, BL) Pokemon; it's instant hail makes Pokemon like Walrein simply too much, whereas without such instant hail, it's easier to handle. Snover supports hail teams in exactly the same way that Abomasnow does (Snow Warning); no more, no less. Thus, if Abomasnow meets the support definition, then Snover would also meet it and have to be banned. It doesn't matter that they would be "essentially having a team of 5 Pokemon"; it would still have the exact same effect on those 5 Pokemon, which would be why Abomasnow would be banned, and thus would need to be banned itself.

 

[Bologo]

Because Abomasnow would be being banned under the Support definition of an Uber (or in this case, BL) Pokemon; it's instant hail makes Pokemon like Walrein simply too much, whereas without such instant hail, it's easier to handle. Snover supports hail teams in exactly the same way that Abomasnow does (Snow Warning); no more, no less. Thus, if Abomasnow meets the support definition, then Snover would also meet it and have to be banned. It doesn't matter that they would be "essentially having a team of 5 Pokemon"; it would still have the exact same effect on those 5 Pokemon, which would be why Abomasnow would be banned, and thus would need to be banned itself.

Just because it meets this definition, it doesn't mean that it automatically has to be banned. There's really no objective way of knowing how much "too much support" is. The stats will help a bit, but we don't have those yet.

In other words, why are people trying to apply this definition right now? Anyone can say that "it fits this definition so therefore it must be BL", but honestly, it's very subjective to be doing that right now, and we really need to wait until we have a few months stats before we try saying that shit should be banned due to one of the definitions.

Also, if you guys are arguing that Snover should be banned because it makes too many pokemon better, then why don't you want Hippo to be banned? It makes a lot of other pokemon better too. For instance, Shuckle becomes a near unbreakable mixed wall when it has Sandstorm. Regirock does too. What about Relicanth, who becomes an extremely bulky sweeper? Or how about Kabutops who can now abuse 2 weathers?

 

[Gorgoroth]

Milotic and moreso Registeel I don't see being BL at all. Registeel is just set up fodder for anything and gets easily crushed by Steelix one on one. Not to mention all of the fire and fighting attacks in this metagame are usually stab and extremely powerful. Milotic can be ok defensively but is raped by Raikou and powerful grassers like Roserade, Shaymin, Sceptile, Venasaur etc. It is walled by pokes that can take Hydro Pump. Plus, if you sacrifice all that defense for an offensively oriented LO set it becomes frail AND underwhelmingly powerful.

 

[chenman333]

Hail can be quite annoying. I've found it takes very careful decisions or extremely good prediction (usually from already knowing someone's team :/) to avoid from having Walrein from setting up.

That said though, just about any user of Encore is going to screw Walrein. I just don't happen to run one. Clefable especially says FU as it avoids hail damage and screws Walrein over with a quick encore. But people shouldn't have to run Clefable.

 

[blue_light]

Your argument "Why aren't you #1 on the UU leaderboard yet?" does not have merit. As we all know there can be only #1, and that person currently has an unreachable number of points, so it is impossible to reach#1 on the leaderboard without exploiting some unknown glitch. As I've said before, many of top 10 teams use hail teams, so yes hail is increasingly popular and being used by the best. I have no doubt that when the usage statistcs for UU come out for this month, Abomasnow will be one of the top pokes being used.

Edit: I have no doubt in my mind that Hail can give you a noticeable advantage. When I first played the nUU, I used a team with light hail elements in it to get myself into the top 50 easily. I myself have not used a full-fledged hail team, just abomasnow and walrein, with stall elements, but the ways I've seen them implemented by panamaxis and 7ay clearly screams to me broken. I expect many hail teams to debut at the smogon tour this weekend for UU, while hail has many advantages it has few weaknesses that it can't cover up. I just believe that if hail teams stay in UU, everybody that doesn't use a hail team is going to be forced to use clefable and registeel. Simply because only registeel is able to stay in and take stabed blizzards and tbolts.

 

[Steinhauser]

I intended my statement to be interpreted as a condemnation of anyone accusing Hail of being overpowered without having made a successful team himself. Of course not everyone is going to be #1 on the leaderboard; however, if Hail is as broken as everyone says it is, using it should consistently elevate you above non-hail teams with little or no effort.

(I don't know how Trolly is 3000 points above everyone else but I'm sure the issue will be resolved soon.)

 

[guoguo]

Because Abomasnow would be being banned under the Support definition of an Uber (or in this case, BL) Pokemon; it's instant hail makes Pokemon like Walrein simply too much, whereas without such instant hail, it's easier to handle. Snover supports hail teams in exactly the same way that Abomasnow does (Snow Warning); no more, no less. Thus, if Abomasnow meets the support definition, then Snover would also meet it and have to be banned. It doesn't matter that they would be "essentially having a team of 5 Pokemon"; it would still have the exact same effect on those 5 Pokemon, which would be why Abomasnow would be banned, and thus would need to be banned itself.

What I don't understand is, since when was Stallrein considered to be too good for UU? A good, hard hit or a timely switch will prevent it from setting up, and once it is set up Encore/Taunt renders Stalrein useless, Roar/Whirlwind will knock it out of battle, Perish song works as well if you, for some reason, cannot fit any of the previous moves onto a team. And Stealth Rock is in play, it'll be that much harder for it to come back in.

Blizzard, on the other hand, I find to be very underwhelming. The perfect accuracy makes very little difference in most cases. Defensively speaking, 85% accuracy is no different from 100% accuracy, No one would keep a Milotic on a Shaymin in the hopes that Seed Flare will miss. Blizzard is no different. Blizzard is powerful because of its 120 base power, not its perfect accuracy in Hail.

 

[Erazor]

guoguo, blizzard has only 70% accuracy. That, compared to perfect accuracy, is a big difference.

 

[Naxte]

What I don't understand is, since when was Stallrein considered to be too good for UU? A good, hard hit or a timely switch will prevent it from setting up, and once it is set up Encore/Taunt renders Stalrein useless, Roar/Whirlwind will knock it out of battle, Perish song works as well if you, for some reason, cannot fit any of the previous moves onto a team. And Stealth Rock is in play, it'll be that much harder for it to come back in.

Blizzard, on the other hand, I find to be very underwhelming. The perfect accuracy makes very little difference in most cases. Defensively speaking, 85% accuracy is no different from 100% accuracy, No one would keep a Milotic on a Shaymin in the hopes that Seed Flare will miss. Blizzard is no different. Blizzard is powerful because of its 120 base power, not its perfect accuracy in Hail.

I'm not saying that it, or Abomasnow, are too much for UU or anything; I haven't really formed an opinion on that. All I'm saying, is that Abomasnow can do no more to help other Pokemon on a Hail team than Snover can. Therefore, if Abomasnow makes the other Pokemon on a Hail team too much to handle, than the same would have to go for Snover.

Whether any of them are too much isn't something I'm sure of. All I'm saying is that if Abomasnow turns out to make Hail teams too good, because of auto-Hail (which is how it supports them), then Snover would have to banned with it, for the same reason.