Calm Clefable beats Raikou almost all the time. SubCM Raikou only manages 26.48% - 31.16% with an unboosted T-bolt, and 39.51% - 46.48% with a +1. You'll most likely switch in on their Substitute, and can Encore. If they CM you force Raikou out and can TWave the switch-in. If they T-bolt you can recover with Softboiled until you get a chance to beak their sub, then paralyze them, ruining their sweeping chances.
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np: UU - A New Beginning
- Thread starter RBG
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Important point: Raikou does not have to have the same strengths as Garchomp in order to be banned. Banning is case by case.
When Syb talked about how it's similar to Garchomp, he was only pointing at one quality they have in common: The ability to wipe out 3-4 or even more enemies once it's set up, and the set up being very difficult to stop.
I'd also like to underline the fact that "counters," whether they exist OR NOT, are far from the only thing to consider when thinking about a ban. Just like lack of counters does not mean "broken," the existance of counters does not mean "not-broken."
Kyogre has counters in OU. That doesn't mean it belongs in OU. We all understand, Raikou has a lot of reliable counters-- listing more does not really do anything for the argument. The problem with Raikou is different.
Also Umbarsc, be a little realistic-- even if you have a well-built team with 4 or so pokemon who can each handle raikou in some way or other, that doesn't mean they'll necessarily be able to stop the sweep throughout the battle).
I am pretty much on the fence about Raikou. Honestly, outside the ridiculous amount of support Abomasnow's auto-hail provides, Raikou is the only pokemon that really stands out to me as a suspect. That being said, I can easily understand (and agree with) the many arguments that "it's not broken."
-Gastrodon's problem isn't how good its defenses are. It's the fact it has crap support options, and does not hit hard enough with its neutral moves. In OU, Vaporeon, Tentacruel and Swampert are the top Support-Bulky Water pokes because they have wish, t-spikes/rapid spin, and stealth rock respectively. If Gastrodon had SR, I'd be all over it, but as of now Gastrodon can sit out there recovering all day and not accomplish much.
When Syb talked about how it's similar to Garchomp, he was only pointing at one quality they have in common: The ability to wipe out 3-4 or even more enemies once it's set up, and the set up being very difficult to stop.
I'd also like to underline the fact that "counters," whether they exist OR NOT, are far from the only thing to consider when thinking about a ban. Just like lack of counters does not mean "broken," the existance of counters does not mean "not-broken."
Kyogre has counters in OU. That doesn't mean it belongs in OU. We all understand, Raikou has a lot of reliable counters-- listing more does not really do anything for the argument. The problem with Raikou is different.
Also Umbarsc, be a little realistic-- even if you have a well-built team with 4 or so pokemon who can each handle raikou in some way or other, that doesn't mean they'll necessarily be able to stop the sweep throughout the battle).
I am pretty much on the fence about Raikou. Honestly, outside the ridiculous amount of support Abomasnow's auto-hail provides, Raikou is the only pokemon that really stands out to me as a suspect. That being said, I can easily understand (and agree with) the many arguments that "it's not broken."
-Gastrodon's problem isn't how good its defenses are. It's the fact it has crap support options, and does not hit hard enough with its neutral moves. In OU, Vaporeon, Tentacruel and Swampert are the top Support-Bulky Water pokes because they have wish, t-spikes/rapid spin, and stealth rock respectively. If Gastrodon had SR, I'd be all over it, but as of now Gastrodon can sit out there recovering all day and not accomplish much.
....given that most revenge killers are about having good speed, sure. Besides, it's not like using any of those Pokemon would be good only for taking him out. From my perspective, it's way too soon to make a decision on Raikou, and he is not even the most dangerous threat for me - then again, I run a stall team which really has to figure out a way to deal with that goddamned Clefable, so that might be a moot point.
Except another factor in Kyogre being OU is its sheer bulk, which Raikou lacks (or rather, Kyogre's ability to be bulky and powerful at the same time, which Raikou can't really do). It was pretty hard to stop Kyogre with unSTABed Thunderbolts and such, but Raikou isn't going to be taking an Earthquake easily.
I like to think of it as "how dangerous is it to not carry a counter". For Rayquaza, the answer is "very", because it only needs one Swords Dance or Dragon Dance to sweep a team, and it's very unpredictable. For Groudon, the answer is "extremely", because it effectively has only two weaknesses (with Sun cancelling Water attacks), being incredibly bulky on both sides of the spectrum, and having all the coverage it needs with Fire Blast/Earthquake/Stone Edge, leaving room for Rock Polish to ensure that most Scarfers can't revenge-kill it.
For Raikou, however, I would have to say that the answer is "somewhat", because its Speed is 115 and it has no way of boosting its speed, meaning that it's open to revenge-kill, and its mediocre physical defense is easily exploited by faster Pokemon (including Scarfers). I appreciate the fact that its base speed is quite high for UU, but I think there's a difference between "forcing you to think creatively" and "overcentralizing". Even if you don't have a 100% "counter", you can still have checks for it, like Hariyama, who is bulky enough to take a Thunderbolt or two and wreck it with Earthquake or Close Combat.
I think no pokemon in UU should be banned. All could be countered.
Unbarsc, I'll point you to the first part of my post:
And then you just replaced "garchomp" with "kyogre/rayquaza" and proceded to ignore this comment.
Are you really trying to also say "if it has counters, it is not bannable," because that has no basis at all.
Lastly, I myself mentioned hariyama as a usable counter on the last page. -.-
@Froi Tiedoll-- before you say that, you have to answer this comment I made:
And then you just replaced "garchomp" with "kyogre/rayquaza" and proceded to ignore this comment.
Are you really trying to also say "if it has counters, it is not bannable," because that has no basis at all.
Lastly, I myself mentioned hariyama as a usable counter on the last page. -.-
@Froi Tiedoll-- before you say that, you have to answer this comment I made:
Whats the grass type gonna do to raikou? Almost all grass types use special attacks, meanwhile raikou is gonna go and get 6 cms and after that even tbolt is gonna rape grass types.
When Raikou's counters can only counter him when he's not using a certain HP, that shows how good he may be. You send out Camerupt as your counter, and eat an HP water. Now you know it has HP water, but there goes your counter, so you essentially need atleast two pokemon to be able to counter it safetly, so chances are it's gonna kill something. And its 3 "100%" counters are easily handled by something like Gallade, or have exploded/taken alot of damage by then since they teand to appear early game. And Raikou can be versatile(sort of), dont forget it has devastating SPecs and LO sets
EDIT: And @ Demon, Shaymin can Earth Power, but thats it really beyond things like toxic
EDIT: And @ Demon, Shaymin can Earth Power, but thats it really beyond things like toxic
ChouToshio said:
No, what I did was show why I thought your comparison to Kyogre was invalid. You said "Kyogre has OU counters and is uber, so it's possible for Raikou to have UU counters and be BL", so I countered that by saying why I thought Kyogre can have counters and "get away with" being uber so to speak.
No, I think I specifically tried to argue why something can have counters and still be broken, but also when it applies and when it doesn't. Like, how easy is it to revenge-kill, or how easy it is to set up, and how bulky it is.
Random_Pizzaman said:
You can argue that "there are six Pokemon on a team", but remember that that goes both ways. Gallade doesn't have Pursuit or a trapping ability, so your opponent can simply switch out his Raikou counter and switch in his Gallade counter.
Then use some topic sentances establishing the goal of your examples in order to make what your point is clear.
What about Ninetales? Flareon, Altaria, Mantine, and Camerupt are each dispatched of by a certain Hidden Power. You sent out your Mantine only to get destroyed by HP Electric.
What is the problem with Raikou?
That was when I was "comparing" it to Rayquaza and Groudon.
I'll admit that I wasn't clear with my Kyogre example, but my point was that Kyogre had counters but it also had the bulk to deal with non-counters, and its counters were rather specialized or just not viable outside of countering it, which doesn't apply to Raikou.
And then Gallade gets off a Swords Dance...
No, Ninetales, Flareon, Altaria all take neutral damage form thunderbolt...And Mantine wouldnt get destroyed by HP electric, It'd be destroyed by thunderbolt
I was comparing Ninetales to Raikou.
Oh, nvm then XD. Should have known you knew what you were talking about Eo.
And about that, HP Rock hits neutral or better on all of them, no?
And about that, HP Rock hits neutral or better on all of them, no?
we should probablyyyyyyyyyyyy stop comparing pokes to other pokes...
I know you guys said Dragonair wasn't any good, but I've been having decent success with him on the UU Ladder, so I thought I'd share my exact set.
Dragonair @ Chesto Berry
Jolly
Shed Skin
252 Atk/252 Speed/6 HP
Dragon Dance
Rest
Outrage
Waterfall
Obviously, the basic objective is to DD up and sweep with Outrage. Waterfall is to hit Steels neutral, as well as allowing for kills on weakened Pokemon. Additionally, its 20% flinch rate is a nice bonus. Rest allows you to heal off the damage taken during setup in addition to allowing you to wall a series of light hits in certain situations. Chesto Berry allows you one free rest, and also protects against Yawn/Sleep Powder/Hypnosis etc. which seems to be a common way to attempt to stop Dragonair. The real secret, however, is Shed Skin. With Shed Skin, Thunder Wave no longer leaves you crippled beyond repair, Toxic Spikes can't ruin your perfect sweep, burn doesn't reduce your attack for more than a few turns, and sleep won't slow you down for too long, even if your Chesto has already been used up. And of course, Shed Skin gives you a 51% chance of waking up at least a turn early from Rest. All in all, Dragonair is a powerful sweeper that can often get 1-2 kills in a game, is practically immune to status, and has a much more usable rest than most pokemon. And of course, there's always the added bonus of using an NFE!
Dragonair @ Chesto Berry
Jolly
Shed Skin
252 Atk/252 Speed/6 HP
Dragon Dance
Rest
Outrage
Waterfall
Obviously, the basic objective is to DD up and sweep with Outrage. Waterfall is to hit Steels neutral, as well as allowing for kills on weakened Pokemon. Additionally, its 20% flinch rate is a nice bonus. Rest allows you to heal off the damage taken during setup in addition to allowing you to wall a series of light hits in certain situations. Chesto Berry allows you one free rest, and also protects against Yawn/Sleep Powder/Hypnosis etc. which seems to be a common way to attempt to stop Dragonair. The real secret, however, is Shed Skin. With Shed Skin, Thunder Wave no longer leaves you crippled beyond repair, Toxic Spikes can't ruin your perfect sweep, burn doesn't reduce your attack for more than a few turns, and sleep won't slow you down for too long, even if your Chesto has already been used up. And of course, Shed Skin gives you a 51% chance of waking up at least a turn early from Rest. All in all, Dragonair is a powerful sweeper that can often get 1-2 kills in a game, is practically immune to status, and has a much more usable rest than most pokemon. And of course, there's always the added bonus of using an NFE!
The point of my comparison was to note that other Pokemon whose counters rely on said Pokemon not having a certain Hidden Power were not found to be broken, not to state, "Because Ninetales's counters are also reliant on Ninetales not having a certain HP, and Ninetales isn't broken, then Raikou isn't broken."
I still don't see why Raikou is broken. It has been stated there are various counters and checks to it. The ease of setting it up should be irrelevant when its set up is completely disrupted by one of its counters. If a Raikou sweeps because a Chansey was at 10% health, would not the ease of it doing so have been granted by the Pokemon that got Chansey to 10% rather than Raikou?
I still don't see why Raikou is broken. It has been stated there are various counters and checks to it. The ease of setting it up should be irrelevant when its set up is completely disrupted by one of its counters. If a Raikou sweeps because a Chansey was at 10% health, would not the ease of it doing so have been granted by the Pokemon that got Chansey to 10% rather than Raikou?
I've been having a lot of fun tearing up "weaker" teams with the use of Pass Trap Umbreon. I am a stall player at heart so I use it in tandem with a Registeel set I through together.
Registeel @ leftovers
252 hp/ 52 def/ 204 sp.def
Impish
Amnesia
Iron Defense/Curse
Rollout/Return
Rest/Earthquake
Well I know I will probably get some shit for this. Like I said it is just for dicking around. Once it is set up nothing will stop it (barring a critical fighting/ground attack). With Rollout/Iron Defense it won't do much to opposing Steel types. If you think you can get ideal set up conditions then drop Iron Defense and use Curse along with Return/Earthquake. Return hits a lot of things for neutral while Earthquake hits grounded Rocks/Steels.
I will try the Curse/Return/Earthquake combo at some point, but for now I am content with the Rollout set.
If anyone feels like frustrating an opponent then feel free to use the set.
Registeel @ leftovers
252 hp/ 52 def/ 204 sp.def
Impish
Amnesia
Iron Defense/Curse
Rollout/Return
Rest/Earthquake
Well I know I will probably get some shit for this. Like I said it is just for dicking around. Once it is set up nothing will stop it (barring a critical fighting/ground attack). With Rollout/Iron Defense it won't do much to opposing Steel types. If you think you can get ideal set up conditions then drop Iron Defense and use Curse along with Return/Earthquake. Return hits a lot of things for neutral while Earthquake hits grounded Rocks/Steels.
I will try the Curse/Return/Earthquake combo at some point, but for now I am content with the Rollout set.
If anyone feels like frustrating an opponent then feel free to use the set.
I think this is very interesting to see, as i know some of the peoples teams and playstyle that they use.
Sorry if you wanted to keep this a secret Eo =p. Eo uses a Chansey on his team, he naturally would not think Raikou as broken as someone using a Registeel/Steelix/whatever. Chansey is a near 100% counter to Raikou. While Eo likely has much more trouble with pokemon such as Mismagius, he really sees no reason Raikou is broken. Stall teams with Nidoqueen+other Phazers will find little trouble from a Raikou.
Now some of the people argueing that Raikou is broken, are the people with much less defensive based teams, with Pokemon such as maybe a Milotic or Registeel as their special wall. And maybe even Steelix and whatever to stop Raikou. Steelix and Registeel don't have the staying power to permanently stop Raikou. After 2-4 HP Ices or Grasses(being the most common i beleive) Steelix is in KO range after a CM. Registeel has very little staying power for the same Reasons. Basically, no recovery move+minimal damage to other threats.
I think im going to have to disagree with you EUM. I'll state the differences in point form:
-Raikou has a MUCH higher SAtk stat.
-Raikou has alot more Bulk.
-Raikou is faster.
-Raikou's counters do pretty much nothing but stop it+random others. (E.G. Registeel stops Raikou and Shaymin temporarily, but the best thing it can do back is Twave)
-Raikou NEEDS counters. Ninetails can be killed by literally any pokemon.
Well, the list goes on and on. The main difference between the two, is just overall Power. Raikou statisticly, and its typing just make it so much better than Ninetails. Ninetails is alot slower, Raikou can set up on Bulky Waters while Ninetails would have Zero set up bait in this metagame, Its fireblast probably Barely 2HKOing a Registeel.
Summary: Raikou is just alot more powerful.
Sorry if you wanted to keep this a secret Eo =p. Eo uses a Chansey on his team, he naturally would not think Raikou as broken as someone using a Registeel/Steelix/whatever. Chansey is a near 100% counter to Raikou. While Eo likely has much more trouble with pokemon such as Mismagius, he really sees no reason Raikou is broken. Stall teams with Nidoqueen+other Phazers will find little trouble from a Raikou.
Now some of the people argueing that Raikou is broken, are the people with much less defensive based teams, with Pokemon such as maybe a Milotic or Registeel as their special wall. And maybe even Steelix and whatever to stop Raikou. Steelix and Registeel don't have the staying power to permanently stop Raikou. After 2-4 HP Ices or Grasses(being the most common i beleive) Steelix is in KO range after a CM. Registeel has very little staying power for the same Reasons. Basically, no recovery move+minimal damage to other threats.
I think im going to have to disagree with you EUM. I'll state the differences in point form:
-Raikou has a MUCH higher SAtk stat.
-Raikou has alot more Bulk.
-Raikou is faster.
-Raikou's counters do pretty much nothing but stop it+random others. (E.G. Registeel stops Raikou and Shaymin temporarily, but the best thing it can do back is Twave)
-Raikou NEEDS counters. Ninetails can be killed by literally any pokemon.
Well, the list goes on and on. The main difference between the two, is just overall Power. Raikou statisticly, and its typing just make it so much better than Ninetails. Ninetails is alot slower, Raikou can set up on Bulky Waters while Ninetails would have Zero set up bait in this metagame, Its fireblast probably Barely 2HKOing a Registeel.
Summary: Raikou is just alot more powerful.
I used a similar set once, which I nabbed from some guy I met on Shoddy once (I forget his name.)
It was Amnesia/Curse/Metal Claw/Rest. The EV spread was identical (balanced defenses). Basically he was a fallback Pokémon that could outstall anything short of SD Gallade in the late game. Metal Claw has 64 pp on Shoddy (should be 56, but I'll take it) so it was the ultimate pp stalling move.
Of course once people started using Gallade I stopped using this. (It was a very short time.)
Well why not use Regirock, who atleast has STAB on rollout. I dont know if he has amnesia though, but you can mimic the effects with a sandstorm
Amnesia can boost sp.def a lot more then Sandstorm. Also I could use Regirock, but I like Registeel for the useful Steel resist he gives.
@ Steinhauser
Rollout can last up to 5 turns and only uses up one PP during those turns. Its PP can last pretty long thanks to that. I think I have grown tired of the Rollout set though.
I am now trying Curse/Amnesia/Rest/Iron Head. I got it set up during a battle and it worked really well. Umbreon/Trapping support is ideal. In fact Syberia has watched a battle or two of mine. We are both shocked by the fact that it works.
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