np: UU - A New Beginning

[LonelyNess]

The biggest draw that Staraptor has isn't even Brave Bird or STAB Return, as Swellow can do those things too and is faster. His biggest pro is that he learns Close Combat which eliminates Rock and Steel types from the "counters" list. Without that, Dodrio is just another Normal / Flying type. I'd rather use Swellow over Dodrio any day if only for the added speed.

 

[memorexia]

With Steelix and Registeel running around it's just not worth it to run Dodrio or Swellow.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Well, to its credit, Steelix was still used alot in old uu and even then Swellow was used alot. The old Probopass+Swellow combo could really rampage a team if done right

 

[LonelyNess]

Unfortunately, the defensive quality of Pokemon as a whole has gone up with the introduction of previously BL Pokemon. Even a Max / Max Slowbro can take two Facades from a Swellow, so it's not even just Steel / Rock types anymore that make using Swellow, or any of the old UU birds, a bad idea.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

has anyone experimented with metang yet?

Metang @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 80 HP/252 Atk/176 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Meteor Mash
- Explosion
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch

nets 180 speed + 409 attack which is still somewhat impressive and metang has the attack power to make it work.

I'm somewhat curious about making a uu dual screen pass team with memento uxie, rock polish + swords dance + taunt + bp gligar, and a ice punch, earthquake, meteor mash, thunderpunch metang with a lum berry. without rotom-h, cresselia, celebi, ect. stopping this strategy, it should be able to work decently.

if anyone has tried this yet, do you mind sending a pm my way and discussing this team with me on shoddy or aim? it seems like the dual screen baton pass combo has undiscovered potential in uu and I would like to find that "potential".

if anyone has used this very effectively in uu, do you mind sharing some stories with us about how well it worked and what can properly stop it?

Metang is not worth using with other Steels such as Registeel, Magneton and Steelix to use. Also, note that Metang's stat spread is very different to Metagross's. To be honest, Metang is more like a slightly weaker version of Bronzong with Metagross's movepool and ability. Hence, I'm not sure if a Choice Band set would be Metang's most effective strategy.

Anyway, I don't think it's even worth using in UU. In NU it could be good though, especially seeing as the Dragons such as Altaria and Shelgon would get more use there too.

 

[Steinhauser]

I have used Swellow from the beginning of new UU until about a week ago (I haven't played since then) to great success. (Almost) All of its counters are eliminated by Trapinch or foiled by Clefable. Slowbro may be able to take two Facades, but cannot take a Facade, a U-turn, and then deal with whatever comes in (that's 72% minimum damage taken from Jolly, or 24% with Slack Off, and then something like Raikou gets a free sub with basically no risk of getting paralyzed on the switch). With proper support, the only things Swellow can't beat or otherwise get the jump on are really offensive Rock types (Rhydon), Crobat, and scarfers, and only one of those can actually switch in. With Swellow's speed it is also guaranteed to kill Raikou and Shaymin and it can revenge Staraptor which is why I like it. To me the loss of Close Combat is well worth it for the speed and versatility gained.

 

[M BLADE]

Swellow is completely walled by Aggron,so much that Facade isn't even doing 10% damage.Aggron can wal pretty much any flying type that doesn't get a strong Earthquake or is Staraptor(which,if it's a Choiced one,a simple predict leaves it helpless).

More people should try it.One of the easier pokes to get a sub in.

 

[blue_light]

A simple mispredict with Aggron as leaves its head behind its ass. Aggron does not have the typing to be good in the current UU, simply because there are an excess of fighters and fighting moves in the metagame. Earthquake really isn't even being used anymore besides some walls like Regirock and Steelix. But even simple attacks from those bad boys deal massive amounts of damage to Aggron even with their relatively low base attack.

 

[Heysup]

On another note, for the Voting/Nomination Thread, i want to make sure everyone is aware of this. Many people are saying "Hail is Broken, Ban Abomasnow", this does NOT get rid of the problem.



Please specify, if you nominated Abomasnow and not Snover for the "Support Characteristic" why you feel Snover is not worth banning. Otherwise for the sake of the metagame, put Snover there too. Walrein and Froslass/Glaceon will still be as rediculous with Snover.

Thanks!

 

[Steinhauser]

Nominators may very well feel that Snover is such a detriment to the team (a wasted team slot that can't even set up Stealth Rock) that Hail teams would be at enough of a disadvantage running him as not to be broken.

 

[Crafty Veteran]

True. If anything Snover is will most likely be a suicide weather summoner unlike Abomasnow which hangs around quite longer than Snover ever will.

 

[Syberia]

Please specify, if you nominated Abomasnow and not Snover for the "Support Characteristic" why you feel Snover is not worth banning. Otherwise for the sake of the metagame, put Snover there too. Walrein and Froslass/Glaceon will still be as rediculous with Snover.

Snover "may" be enough of a liability like Hippopotas that it's ok to be allowed, the only way to know for sure is to test it on its own once Abomasnow is gone.

 

[Steinhauser]

Man. Looking at all the possible ban nominations. Its really tearing me up. Many things are being nominated. And after its all done. I don't think UU will be as fun as it is now. BL will hardly be called a tier on its own after all the bans go through. I think after the ban voting is completed im going to take a break from UU for a while. Ill probably be asking for Old New UU battles on Smogon Server xD

Keep in mind the nomination list is not an accurate representation of the community, since no ban opposition will ever appear in that thread. It could very well be that the majority of voters will not lobby for X to be banned in each specific case, causing X to remain UU. Or, more likely, a few bans will take place (things don't look good for Staraptor, Abomasnow, and Raikou), but most of the suspects listed (Crobat, Gallade, Shaymin, Clefable, Froslass, Registeel, etc) will fail to recieve enough support, despite having several nominations each.

 

[Fleursily34]

Gallade is toast. If Aboma goes which he will Then Iseriously dont care if they ban everything nominated. Clefable needs way more recognition for being overpowered. Ithought I was the only one against it but Ican see now that people are beggining torealise how utterly overpowered it is. Im glad im not alone. Clearly Aboma has themost nominations with Raptor Bird. So they are definitly going and Iam undoubtfully NERFED. oh well atleast I made it to numero uno! So its not as crippling a blow.

 

[TUskate]

I just posted this in the voting thread and wanted to hear a little discussion on it...

After these two top leads are gone, the rest of the fast speed options is much more balanced. I'd imagine we'd start seeing a lot more of...

- Electrode (140 Speed) Taunt
- Floatzel (115 Speed) Taunt, Baton Pass
- Ambipom (115 Speed) Taunt
- Jumpluff (110 Speed) Sleep Powder, Stun Spore
- Lopunny (107 Speed) Magic Coat, Baton Pass
- Mismagius (105 Speed) Taunt
- Miltank (100 Speed) Stealth Rock

These then become the best "support leads" and none of these really stand out to me as being over centralizing. We already see a lot of Ambipom (even though it is retardedely walled by Steelix and Registeel), and Mismagius comes up often in more of a sweeper role, but never as a lead. Basically by sacrificing two pokemon we'd see a rise in usage in five different, seldomly used pokemon.

Once Crobat and Froslass are removed, then I believe we'll start seeing a lot more diversity in leads. Obviously we'll steal see plenty of Scarf users, but we may start seeing more non-Taunt leads, like Bulky pokemon such as Steelix and Claydol. So up with diversity, down with Crobat and Froslass.

I feel like there is a 90% chance that Crobat is gone, and then a 60% chance Froslass is following it out the door. 75% of the matches I've fought have one of these pokemon as leads. If these two are removed things will really open the things people use for leads.

Btw, my reasons for why I want Crobat and Froslass banned are over in the voting thread, but I felt like we didn't really need to talk about that here, rather we should concentrate about all the new lead options.

 

[Fleursily34]

Considering every second lead I see is a Crobat. Ican see where your coming from. Howeva, I think Crobat is a non-iss ue compared to most of the other BL candidats. Crobat really isn't that hard to take on. As for froslass, for me anyway its just not that common a lead. So shes the fastest spiker in UU. thats hardly a reason to ban it. (And thus nerf Hail even more.) If Crobat is ban we would see a whole bunch of new leads for sure. But im not convinced on Crobat being ban worthy. Yet anyway.

 

[Heysup]

Nominators may very well feel that Snover is such a detriment to the team (a wasted team slot that can't even set up Stealth Rock) that Hail teams would be at enough of a disadvantage running him as not to be broken.

Of course, but they need to explain that.

I was refering to how most of the nominators immediately stop talking about Abomasnow when they mention Hail, and talk about Walrein, Froslass etc. If the case is that HAIL is imbalanced, then please either include Snover in your nomination, or give a good reason why not.

Considering every second lead I see is a Crobat. Ican see where your coming from. Howeva, I think Crobat is a non-iss ue compared to most of the other BL candidats. Crobat really isn't that hard to take on. As for froslass, for me anyway its just not that common a lead. So shes the fastest spiker in UU. thats hardly a reason to ban it. (And thus nerf Hail even more.) If Crobat is ban we would see a whole bunch of new leads for sure. But im not convinced on Crobat being ban worthy. Yet anyway.

Crobat is the only thing stopping Froslass from completely destroying all teams without it(Ambipom too i guess). If none of you played pre merge, then you wouldnt realize how insane Froslass is, it seriously always got at least two layers every game if used by a smart player. Imagine how that would be with the awesome spin blockers still around, but without the offensive powerhouses remaining in the tier to break those spin blockers. Dont make this about hail, its really not, not unless hail isnt banned anyway.

Man. Looking at all the possible ban nominations. Its really tearing me up. Many things are being nominated. And after its all done. I don't think UU will be as fun as it is now. BL will hardly be called a tier on its own after all the bans go through. I think after the ban voting is completed im going to take a break from UU for a while. Ill probably be asking for Old New UU battles on Smogon Server xD

Note: Anyway yeah i agree. Banning only Abomasnow does not get rid of HeYsUps problem.

Just because people want to keep using Hail as a crutch, doesnt mean the good users at smogon want to keep it around.

But dont panic yet, people are supposed to be liberal about nominations, because they are suspects not banned. The more we test, the more balanced the tier is.

And lol @ bold. You really wish i was the only one :(.

 

[Fleursily34]

The purpose of this test is to find out what Pokes are overpowered and overcentralizing. So I don't know what it is your talking about. as for the "Broken" teams I am not the only one using a "Broken" team. After its all said and done (Voting wise) There will be many people you can point your finger at for using broken shit. For example Chocolatebunny's main team with which he climbed the ladder is comprised of- Raikou, Straptor, Gallade, Shaymin, and if memory serves Uxie and Spiritomb. By definition how in the hell can you call MY team broken when I only use 1-2 suspects and other people are using teams FULL OF SUSPECTS!!! If you check your team HeY your using a Raikou too. Can Icall YOU a selfish immature person for using a Raikou to win? what would be the point of that anyway. No doubt you have another potental BL such as Straptor, or some such on your team anyway. I wouldn't be surprised. So at this point I think ive made it clear that your a hypocrit.

As for your argument about how anyone could get to number 1 if they used Hail. This is just not true. I estimate there being only like 3 teams that use Hail in the top 20. Lady Platina aswell as Panama. It takes just as much thought to build a good Hail team as it does to build any other team. You still have to select the right pokes, give them the right EVs and find the most effective ms. You still have to balance it with synergy. Even stating that using Abomasnow and Wailrein is an "instant win button" is boarderline insulting. By using them I am in no way impervious to having to use prediction to win a bout. I still had to put an effort in. And I HAVE been defeated many times over the course of this last month. And yes Ihate Clefable. I am bias! So is the rest of the world. My distaste for Clefable is reasonable. Take a look at my reasoning in the nomination thread if you will. I think ive made an acceptable point against it.

 

[Angel Diva]

My Crobat always survive Froslass Ice Beams. Why does Crobat need so much speed for? I only put enough speed to beat 115 base Pokemon(Ambipom and Raikou). I don't really care about Sceptile, who does crap to Crobat, nor Swellow, who can't get by any Steels/Rocks. I put speed to beat Ambipom, max Attack, and the rest of the EVs go into Crobat's defenses.

 

[DjSturks]

@ 7ay:You may have made a decent argument against Clefable, but t is important to note that you only used a hail team during the test (or at least, thats all I saw you using.) Therefore, your view on Clefable needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not sure if you used her or not, but she isn't as hard to take down as you make her out to be.

@TUskate: I would think that Crobat will be gone as well. It's ridiculously fast taunt ensures that no lead (barring a scarfer) gets the chance to set up. Couple that with the fact that he can Scout with U-turn, has a very nice STAB attack, and a reliable form of recovery and you've got the best lead currently in UU.

As far as Frosslass goes, I've tried to a suitable way to stop her, but she is simply guaranteed to get off at least one layer of spikes barring taunt, and can even block spinners herslef. Couple that with her ability to tak you with her, and you have yourself one very supportive pokemon. Aside from the unfortunate side effect of removing one of Hail's key players, I really can't see banning Frosslass doing more harm than good.

 

[Naxte]

Something I find interesting is why Clefable is getting all this hate, especially since, although very common in old UU, it could still be dealt with. Yeah, it can mess up Hail teams, and be an annoying twat with Encore and it's bulk, but that's about it. Pokemon like Staraptor, Absol, Gallade, Kangaskhan, Spiritomb, and Medicham can counter or revenge-kill it.

Pretty much, it seems to me that people aren't really thinking too much about the very delicate balance that UU has now. You ban 'Raptor and Gallade, and you're just making it all the easier for Clefable to mess you up and end up needing to ban it as well. Similarly, if Crobat, 'Raptor, Froslass, Registeel, ect. are banned, then even if it doesn't get banned now, Shaymin-L wil be banned next, due to being left with Regice and Chansey as its only counters.

Personally, the only things I feel that really need to be banned are Snover/Abomasnow, 'Raptor, Raikou and maybe Froslass. Going beyond that, I believe tha balance of the their will start to fall.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I just posted this in the voting thread and wanted to hear a little discussion on it...

Originally Posted by Fat TUskate
After these two top leads are gone, the rest of the fast speed options is much more balanced. I'd imagine we'd start seeing a lot more of...

- Electrode (140 Speed) Taunt
- Floatzel (115 Speed) Taunt, Baton Pass
- Ambipom (115 Speed) Taunt
- Jumpluff (110 Speed) Sleep Powder, Stun Spore
- Lopunny (107 Speed) Magic Coat, Baton Pass
- Mismagius (105 Speed) Taunt
- Miltank (100 Speed) Stealth Rock

These then become the best "support leads" and none of these really stand out to me as being over centralizing. We already see a lot of Ambipom (even though it is retardedely walled by Steelix and Registeel), and Mismagius comes up often in more of a sweeper role, but never as a lead. Basically by sacrificing two pokemon we'd see a rise in usage in five different, seldomly used pokemon.

Once Crobat and Froslass are removed, then I believe we'll start seeing a lot more diversity in leads. Obviously we'll steal see plenty of Scarf users, but we may start seeing more non-Taunt leads, like Bulky pokemon such as Steelix and Claydol. So up with diversity, down with Crobat and Froslass.

To be honest I'm quite saddened by the number of people calling for Crobat to be a suspect. I mean since when was being the best at what you do considered a crime against the metagame? I'm not going to disagree that it is the best lead atm, but if that was valid grounds for banning something then soon enough almost everything will be banned, as there will almost always be a certain Pokemon that is better at overall leading than the rest. It's not like Crobat is absolutely perfect at leading either.

I should also point out that I find it a lot easier to start off matches in the current climate due to the very predictable nature of leads. My current team leads with a max Attack, min speed LO Steelix w/ Stealth Rock and it works very well, helping me cruise into the top 10 on the ladder. Crobat/Ambipom leads can try to Taunt me if they want, but they face a serious risk of getting OHKO'd, and therefore need to predict perfectly to avoid giving me the overall advantage. Froslass leads can do what they like while I bring them down to 1HP, then I play from there depending on what move she used. I pack a reliable spinner in Hitmontop anyway, so suicide Spikes are a pitiful waste for the most part.

In one of my other teams I used a Trickscarf Drifblim, which could cripple Crobat/Ambipom leads quite comfortably, and usually win out against Froslass leads too. The point I'm making is that no lead is perfect, and there are always ways to beat whatever lead you come across. I just don't think Crobat does enough as a lead to warrant a ban, unlike perhaps Deoxys-S in OU. As far as diversity in leads goes, I personally think it is just a result of the metagame not yet adapting to account for this. I will happily continue to play the metagame for what it is and reap the benefits until things do actually change.

 

[Lou Cypher]

To be honest I'm quite saddened by the number of people calling for Crobat to be a suspect. I mean since when was being the best at what you do considered a crime against the metagame?

Garchomp just rang. Asked if you'd allow him back into OU despite being the best at what he does.

 

[Naxte]

Garchomp just rang. Asked if you'd allow him back into OU despite being the best at what he does.

It was practically impossible from stopping Garchomp from setting up a sweep and taking out at least one or two of your Pokes.

Crobat, on the other hand, doesn't really compare to it. It's 90/70 offenses are good, but not too great or game-breaking. It's support options are mostly just temporary, like Sunny Day and Rain Dance, are predictable and can be dealt with (Taunt), or terribly inaccurate (Hypnosis). It's fairly bulky, but not terribly so. Throw a Scarf on something with at least 71 Base speed (Honchkrow and up), give it a super-effective move, and it will be dealt with.

Speaking of Scarfkrow, it's a pretty good counter for Crobat and has been my primary answer to it. Outspeeds, is immune to Hypnosis, and HP Rock takes a hefty chunck out of it. It can also go for a more supportive role and screw it over with Thunder Wave.

Then there are the Pokemon that Lemmiwinks mentioned; ScarfBlim (which can screw it over with Trick) and Steelix, which can wall any Crobat not carrying Heat Wave.

Then there's other Pokemon. ScarfLass can screw it over with Destiny Bond, Thunder Wave, or Ice Beam. Electrode outspeeds and can also Thunder Wave Crobat, taking away its greatest selling point (its speed). ScarfVoir/ScarfLade can hit it with Physcic/Psycho Cut. ScarfGatr can get it with Ice Punch, as can Scarf Floatzel. ScarfTauros gets it with Zen Headbutt. ScarfCroak, Stone Edge and ScarfTom, Thunderbolt/Thunder Wave/Trick. Regirock, while being unable to outspeed, walls it and hits it with Stone Edge.

There really are no lack of ways of dealing with Crobat, so I don't get the calls for it to be BL. Yes, you can predict it and switch it out of those things, but your opponent can play the prediction game too, and get those things in on it, where they still counter it.

 

[panamaxis]

If you have to scarf a pokemon to beat another, that is a tad overcentralising. With that logic I could say Garchomp is OU because scarf suicune, scarf vaporeon and scarf cresselia counter it, but those are overspecialised counters anyway.