I disagree. I think we are seeing that Abomasnow was what put hail teams over the top. He made Stallrein a beast, made Froslass even more annoying, gave Glaceon even more offense, and was a threat in his own right. Froslass didn't break UU until the merge with BL, which brought in, guess who, Abomasnow. She clearly was not the problem.
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np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects
- Thread starter Caelum
- Start date
- Status
It seems some people dont remember pre BL merge how UU was.
Froslass was honestly every other lead, it was broken as hell back then, slightly less broken in BL.
Its not the hail that makes Froslass broken, its the fact that its automatic two layers of Spikes with 5/5. Barring over specialized Froslass lead counters that is.
This looks very similar to the Shaymin-S situation of "I hardly encountered it, but when I do I get my ass kicked. Voting uber." That's not the right approach to things at all. If you lose to something, either fix your team to fight it or lose everytime. "Oh man, my team got swept by DD Gyarados. I think it should be tested nao." No, no, no. If you lose to something, that doesn't make it broken; it makes you unprepared. Don't feed me "well I shouldn't have to prepare for what is hardly there" or anything similar. I hardly see Cacturne on Standard, but I still need an answer for it.
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I'd also think iLL is on the right track with unbanning Abomasnow, and I believe we should instead be banning Walrein. It would probably be the better alternative to just banning Abomasnow. Abomasnow keeps other things in line, while Walrein is just "annoying" and can still stall relatively well without hail. If there was a Pokemon that healed the same as Walrein but with a sandstorm in UU, I can almost certainly say that pokemon will get the boot, not Hippopotas. HeYsUp is right about Froslass and I believe it's a justified BL.
As for Crobat (the one suspect people have a general concensus as not broken), I'm unsure if I would even vote it back to UU. Sure it's not "broken" but supposely the "lead metagame" has become much more diverse without him and Froslass, and that is almost enough reasoning for me (standard example: Deoxys-S centralized leads, Crobat does similar).
I probably won't vote anyways, I'm just giving my opinions on the matter.
Veedrock, I was asking it in a hypothetical way. I apologise, I should have been clearer.
(And by the way, I wanted Skymin to remain OU)
We all agree (I think) that Hail with Abomasnow was broken, because of Froslass and co. It was also agreed that Stallrein is annoying as hell, and many people tried to vote it as a suspect.
So if Walrein is broken in Hail, do we blame Snover or Walrein?
Caelum/RBG seemed to dislike the reason "Ban Walrein because its unkillable under hail" when they were going through nominations.
If i remember correctly, they said something such as "banning a Pokemon based on a supporting Pokemon is not a good enough reason".
So for a short answer, i'd assume Snover.
Maybe that would be the fourth charecteristic of an Uber/BL?
"A pokemon is Uber/BL if, in common battle conditions, it consistently sets up a situation making it substantially easier for another pokemon to stall out a significant portion of the metagame"
Because it seems that that's why Snover will be nominated: It sets up a situation for Stallrein to do his thing.
"A pokemon is Uber/BL if, in common battle conditions, it consistently sets up a situation making it substantially easier for another pokemon to stall out a significant portion of the metagame"
Because it seems that that's why Snover will be nominated: It sets up a situation for Stallrein to do his thing.
The reason they DONT have that as a characteristic, is because it never occurs in the OU metagame. Hail is not very good in OU with TTar around.
On another note things ive noticed in the last while:
1) Rain teams are not remotely difficult to beat.
2) Charizard is AWESOME!
Charizard can switch in, and effectively wall Shaymin with Roost, while throwing out STAB Fire Blasts and Focus Punches.
3) Hitmontop spins too easily.
4) Stall is as rediculous as ever. Certain people are using Shaymin for its true strength, defense. Shaymin is effectively an Offense Breaker, so stall teams have no trouble with Balanced or Offensive teams. Why should someone have to take on Celebi with UU Pokemon?
Erm, I actually think otherwise, but maybe that's because I run a stall team myself and don't know how to play offense (lol, most people start offense and don't know how to play stall). I find rain dance teams quite irritating, and am saved only to my Fusion Lanturn and Scarf Magnetric. They are difficult to get around. On the other hand, stall isn't that hard to beat, really all you break is one link, and the team has a much more difficult time taking on threats... that is what I have found... stall is strong with all pokemon, but weak once you start killing them. But I dunno.
Hitmontop curiously brings the use of running psychic on ghosts now... they can massacre him as he spins once, and then setup spikes again, and have them for the rest of the game. At least that's what I do, but he does spin to easily.
Charizard is awsome, correct... only thing is that he becomes near useless when someone sets up rain dance or uses Azumarill.
Just the curious things I have found... probably because my team is different than yours.
So I guess it's Snover. Walrein isn't anywhere near Broken without hail.
This is where I get confused... about the support charecteristic and Auto-Weather pokemon.
Abomasnow/ Snover, Tyranitar, and Hippodon/ Hippotoss all have an auto-weather ability. Simply switching them in removes all current weather in favor of their own. Tyranitar himself receives a Special Defense boost from his Sand and Abomasnow gains the 100% acc. blizzard. Buut, what I'm looking at is the fact that unless you change the weather yourself you are going to be, in most cases, hampered by an ability of a pokemon just by switching in. Looking at UU lets use sandstorm since it effects less pokemon. Going off a hypothetical match of 20 turns, sandstorm is in play via Hippotoss lead and 1 resist. You can assume that approximately sandstorm alone chips off about 100% of your teams health (using 15 turns). I'm having a hard time finishing off my thought. Long story short.. I feel that Auto-weather breaks support characteristic without a doubt.
Abomasnow/ Snover, Tyranitar, and Hippodon/ Hippotoss all have an auto-weather ability. Simply switching them in removes all current weather in favor of their own. Tyranitar himself receives a Special Defense boost from his Sand and Abomasnow gains the 100% acc. blizzard. Buut, what I'm looking at is the fact that unless you change the weather yourself you are going to be, in most cases, hampered by an ability of a pokemon just by switching in. Looking at UU lets use sandstorm since it effects less pokemon. Going off a hypothetical match of 20 turns, sandstorm is in play via Hippotoss lead and 1 resist. You can assume that approximately sandstorm alone chips off about 100% of your teams health (using 15 turns). I'm having a hard time finishing off my thought. Long story short.. I feel that Auto-weather breaks support characteristic without a doubt.
Uh, yeah, I dunno, Sandstorm seems to make Regirock, and to a lesser extent, Shuckle, into beasts. Regirock is an end game beast. Encore Wrap Toxic Shuckle is useful at the start of your game. However, we will have to put more checks on Rain Dance if we are to take action against Sandstorm.
That isn't always the best way to approach things. If something is broken with a certain item, do you nominate the item or the Pokemon? In a sense, you'd be banning Walrein for the same reason we Limbo'd Abomasnow; its ability. Similarly, if there was a sandstorm equivilant to Walrein, I can almost guarantee it would be nominated; not hippopotas.
However, I suppose this is all about how you approach things. In the Evasion Topic, there was the issue of a "broken set" that would destroy the metagame. Of course, most people said ban double team to fix the problem, no harm done. A small minority said to ban the broken Pokemon and keep the move. It keeps an entire strategy open, while removing what's ideally broken. This is a very, very similar situation.
I'll try to find an exact quote to better explain (damnit Blame Game).
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Replace evasion with Hail, and we have the same argument. I'm sure everyone will be fine with hail if it isn't available to Walrein, so why not just remove him? It keeps an entire strategy open and available, but keeps it from being "broken."
Replace Blissey with Walrein and Double Team with Hail. Why shouldn't Walrein (the real culprit) be banned instead?
I can grab more if needed (it goes pretty in depth), but the single broken pokemon with evasion fits almost parallel to Hail/Walrein.
Ummmmm...... No. Did you go back and read the Bold Nominations?
There two Walrein nominations were excepted, but the majority nominated Abomasnow instead of Walrein. Most of the other nominations cited Abomasnow and said that if it wasn't banned Walrein should be, which wasn't the point of the bold nominations. Those were the votes we didn't except. If people wanted to nominates something based on what wasn't removed, then they should have waited till the next bold voting to vote. And even then, we still wouldn't have accepted that as a valid reason.
Well i didnt exactly mean it like that, what i meant was more along the lines of "Ban Walrein because of Snover/Abomasnow".
The irony here, is that it seems the posts are the same thing, yet some were accepted and some were not. But this is my little "nitpick", so no reason to discuss it here, ill explain this via PM.
Now onto Veedrock's post.
Im going to disagree completely with both of these points.
Hail's Situation and Sandstorms situation CAN NOT be compared, yes they are both Auto-weather, but they are not both HAIL. Any argument comparing them has been proven invalid due to many reasons, they are probably somewhere in this thread or the old one. One example is Sandstorm has so many Pokemon immune to it, while Hail has like 6, while another example is the fact that (before Froslass was Limbo'd), hail had a free Spikes/Spin Blocker. The 100% Accurate Blizzard vs SDef increase is up for debate i guess.
However, theorymonning a Pokemon to fit the same role Walrein has in Hail, in use with Sandstorm is completely rediculous, because no one would know what happens. It would likely be just as hard to prove that Pokemon BL as it was to prove Walrein, but who knows? It doesnt exist, therefor there is no way to tell which would get banned. What "if" arguments about things that dont exist are quite flawed imo.
The second thing is, Evasion is completely a different Topic than this, as one is refering to an "overpowered" strategy, versus a strategy reliant on hax, and uncounterable at that. And even if the comparison was valid, your logic suggests they should ban Blissey and allow Double Team.
The irony here, is that it seems the posts are the same thing, yet some were accepted and some were not. But this is my little "nitpick", so no reason to discuss it here, ill explain this via PM.
Now onto Veedrock's post.
Im going to disagree completely with both of these points.
Hail's Situation and Sandstorms situation CAN NOT be compared, yes they are both Auto-weather, but they are not both HAIL. Any argument comparing them has been proven invalid due to many reasons, they are probably somewhere in this thread or the old one. One example is Sandstorm has so many Pokemon immune to it, while Hail has like 6, while another example is the fact that (before Froslass was Limbo'd), hail had a free Spikes/Spin Blocker. The 100% Accurate Blizzard vs SDef increase is up for debate i guess.
However, theorymonning a Pokemon to fit the same role Walrein has in Hail, in use with Sandstorm is completely rediculous, because no one would know what happens. It would likely be just as hard to prove that Pokemon BL as it was to prove Walrein, but who knows? It doesnt exist, therefor there is no way to tell which would get banned. What "if" arguments about things that dont exist are quite flawed imo.
The second thing is, Evasion is completely a different Topic than this, as one is refering to an "overpowered" strategy, versus a strategy reliant on hax, and uncounterable at that. And even if the comparison was valid, your logic suggests they should ban Blissey and allow Double Team.
I've been playing the UU metagame with Regirock and against both Walrein and Regirock, and I'm finding that without weather, they are rather underwhelming.
In my opinon, Walrein on its own is not BL. While 110/90/90 defenses are by no means poor in the UU metagame, it has a hard time attacking without 100% Blizzard being provided by hail.
It certainly cannot fufill the defense characteristic, as it's weak to Fighting, Grass, and Electric, three powerful and common types in UU, and it's not going to outspeed very many Pokemon to counteract that with a 65 base Speed.
Support is the only thing it might be able to do with Sub/Protect/Toxic or the like, but many Pokemon can do that and it's easily stopped by the usual counters to Toxic Stalling (who are even more common in UU thanks to the multitude of Drapion, Roserade, Steelix, etc.)
By the same token, Regirock on its own is not BL. Run properly, Regirock can destroy large parts of the metagame, but ONLY if Sandstorm is up to prevent the large numbers of Bulky Waters from running it over with Surf, and Shaymin's Seed Flare will break it 30% of the time regardless of the weather situation. Without the Curse Set, it can't really attack, it can't defend from both ends of the spectrum at once without Sandstorm, and while it can support, it can't do so in an overly effective manner or one that Registeel and Steelix can't duplicate.
Snover and Hippopotas provide the support needed to fufill the Attack/Defense Characteristic in Regirock and the Defense characteristic in Walrein. Therefore, they are the BL suspects.
In my opinon, Walrein on its own is not BL. While 110/90/90 defenses are by no means poor in the UU metagame, it has a hard time attacking without 100% Blizzard being provided by hail.
It certainly cannot fufill the defense characteristic, as it's weak to Fighting, Grass, and Electric, three powerful and common types in UU, and it's not going to outspeed very many Pokemon to counteract that with a 65 base Speed.
Support is the only thing it might be able to do with Sub/Protect/Toxic or the like, but many Pokemon can do that and it's easily stopped by the usual counters to Toxic Stalling (who are even more common in UU thanks to the multitude of Drapion, Roserade, Steelix, etc.)
By the same token, Regirock on its own is not BL. Run properly, Regirock can destroy large parts of the metagame, but ONLY if Sandstorm is up to prevent the large numbers of Bulky Waters from running it over with Surf, and Shaymin's Seed Flare will break it 30% of the time regardless of the weather situation. Without the Curse Set, it can't really attack, it can't defend from both ends of the spectrum at once without Sandstorm, and while it can support, it can't do so in an overly effective manner or one that Registeel and Steelix can't duplicate.
Snover and Hippopotas provide the support needed to fufill the Attack/Defense Characteristic in Regirock and the Defense characteristic in Walrein. Therefore, they are the BL suspects.
Almost anything faster then froslass = overspecialized Froslass counter now?
I am going to compare hail to sandstorm... please forgive me if you don't like it :/
So do we ban hail, or Walerin? Do we ban Sandstorm, or Regirock. Because hail and sandstorm are a buffet to both teams. Sandstorm teams and Hail Teams usually fail to make most of their pokemon immune to the weather type. Usually, only 2 or 3, and if you are lucky, 4 are immune to the typing.
So if you did not prepare for Sandstorm, you are likely to only have 1 or 2 immunities compared to their 3 or 4. If you didn't prepare for hail, you are likely to have none or 1 immunities compared to their 2 or 3. It is the same - they will have about 2 more pokemon immune to the weather than you. So you can use hail/sandstorm to your advantage if you play carefully.
It occurs to me... why are we complaining about Stalerin when there is Taunt and Whirlwind... and one of those should be on every team, that's not asking too much, considering the wide variety you get.
@Maple Syrup Ummm.... what do you mean Shaymin breaks it? I think you are talking about the Special Defense Drops, but Regirock has Clear Body. But I dunno, what were you talking about there? Also, have you tried the Swagger/Psych Up set, it works pretty decently, although not that great.
So do we ban hail, or Walerin? Do we ban Sandstorm, or Regirock. Because hail and sandstorm are a buffet to both teams. Sandstorm teams and Hail Teams usually fail to make most of their pokemon immune to the weather type. Usually, only 2 or 3, and if you are lucky, 4 are immune to the typing.
So if you did not prepare for Sandstorm, you are likely to only have 1 or 2 immunities compared to their 3 or 4. If you didn't prepare for hail, you are likely to have none or 1 immunities compared to their 2 or 3. It is the same - they will have about 2 more pokemon immune to the weather than you. So you can use hail/sandstorm to your advantage if you play carefully.
It occurs to me... why are we complaining about Stalerin when there is Taunt and Whirlwind... and one of those should be on every team, that's not asking too much, considering the wide variety you get.
@Maple Syrup Ummm.... what do you mean Shaymin breaks it? I think you are talking about the Special Defense Drops, but Regirock has Clear Body. But I dunno, what were you talking about there? Also, have you tried the Swagger/Psych Up set, it works pretty decently, although not that great.
Well almost anything faster than Froslass was a terrible lead pre merge....so yes.
This is slightly different, you are only comparing them as weather effects.
But too be fair, there is no chance in hell that the average team has an Ice Pokemon on it, and no chance in hell that a Hail team has less than 3 Hail Pokemon on it. Its also highly unlikely that there is no Pokemon on your team with an item other than leftovers, which lose to Walrein 100% of the time barring Taunt.
No team should be "forced" to carry Taunt. Whirlwind is really meh as well, as you can only pull that off a couple times before 120 BP 100% Blizzards do you in.
To be truthful, I don't see how you could run more than 3 ice pokemon on a hail team... you have to deal with their fighting and rock weaknesses now that frosslass is gone, and you have to have (at least in my opinion) 2 resists and a neutral to do that. I dunno, I just get iffy when 4 pokemon on a team are weak to something. That's why I suggested 3 or 2, but then again, there's Snover, so I think I'll settle at 3.
I agree with you that no team should be forced to require a move, so I'll leave it at that. There might be some other things that stall out stalerin, like Subers with a healing move, but I'm sure nobody wants to go through that battle. Hmm... I'll think about this a tiny bit more.
I agree with you that no team should be forced to require a move, so I'll leave it at that. There might be some other things that stall out stalerin, like Subers with a healing move, but I'm sure nobody wants to go through that battle. Hmm... I'll think about this a tiny bit more.
I wasn't trying to compare hail to evasion, I was comparing the arguments of "what really deserves the ban."
So because I'm not "forced" to carry flying, fire, ghost, dark, or rock attacks, we should ban Shedinja, right? I mean, it beats my team and I should NOT be forced to go out of my way for one pokemon. That's what I'm reading. The "if I have to carry a move for this thing, fuck it. BL for my team's sake" mentality grinds my nerves (because that is exactly what this is).
I'm done. This won't get far.
So because I'm not "forced" to carry flying, fire, ghost, dark, or rock attacks, we should ban Shedinja, right? I mean, it beats my team and I should NOT be forced to go out of my way for one pokemon. That's what I'm reading. The "if I have to carry a move for this thing, fuck it. BL for my team's sake" mentality grinds my nerves (because that is exactly what this is).
I'm done. This won't get far.
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