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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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You could apply the same logic towards anything. Yanmega can be checked by specially-defensive Soundproof Electrode and Mr.Mime, Crobat can be checked by Zap Cannon Registeel, Rayquaza can be checked if people "adapt" and run Scarf HP Ice Mismagius on all their teams, and so on.
Please be sensible. Obviously, all suspects can be played around; otherwise no one except those who abuse them would ever be on the ladder. That doesn't make them acceptable in a healthy, balanced metagame.
And it's interesting that you keep mentioning how the metagame has "adapted" to rain. I see a Toxicroak/Poliwrath on damn near every other team now. And I don't blame the players, because quite frankly, Rain has a huge advantage against any team without a water absorber or absurdly fast scarfers, and it makes sense to just throw a water absorber on every team you make. But that's definitely not a sign of a healthy metagame.
Please be sensible. Obviously, all suspects can be played around; otherwise no one except those who abuse them would ever be on the ladder. That doesn't make them acceptable in a healthy, balanced metagame.
And it's interesting that you keep mentioning how the metagame has "adapted" to rain. I see a Toxicroak/Poliwrath on damn near every other team now. And I don't blame the players, because quite frankly, Rain has a huge advantage against any team without a water absorber or absurdly fast scarfers, and it makes sense to just throw a water absorber on every team you make. But that's definitely not a sign of a healthy metagame.
I threw Toxicroak on a team I was playing with yesterday mostly to counter rain and was surprised to find it mostly sucked against rain because Kabutops CH OHKOd with Stone Edge 120% of the time, but that it was really great against almost every other team because Milotic is on basically all of them (and it is decent against Poliwrath and Azumarill as well). I was thinking earlier about how I would change that team if rain was banned, but I don't think I could afford to change it at all since Croak counters so many mons for me... the outburst of Toxicroak is probably not the worst thing that could happen for the metagame, regardless of rain's other negative impacts.
Speaking of rain, though, I can't help but notice these super awesome Trio/Bird/raikou/etc. teams are about to get swept by rain in one dance. PM me the crying when you do please guys, I'm very eager to hear the shocked surprise when those teams with like four Pokemon who do nothing at all against rain get crushed.
Speaking of rain, though, I can't help but notice these super awesome Trio/Bird/raikou/etc. teams are about to get swept by rain in one dance. PM me the crying when you do please guys, I'm very eager to hear the shocked surprise when those teams with like four Pokemon who do nothing at all against rain get crushed.
Just to screw over the surge of Dugtrio, I'll be making a team around Curse Registeel. Do you think he can be successful in this meta?
You can give it a shot, but with all the Moltres, Rhyperior, Torterra, Toxicroak and things like Haze Milotic running around it'll probably be difficult to pull off.
Oh, I keep forgetting to post, but after that "if we ban Moltres it will just get replaced by Charizard" shit a few pages ago (I may be using a liberal definition of "a few") I decided to play with 'Zard a bit. Honestly I don't think it'll matter much to the grand scope of UU if Moltres ends up in Yanmegaland. Most of the stuff that'll hit either Fire/Fly will kill both (Aqua Jets, Arcanine Extremespeed from 50%, etc.) anyway, which negates some of the advantage of Moltres' bulk. The lost power hasn't been huge either, outside of a Milotic surviving me with 1% earlier I haven't really had any situations where I felt like I would be a lot better off with Moltres' slightly higher SpA. The bulk and the extra damage is enough that I still agree Moltres is the better Pokemon, but 'Zard will have no issues filling in if Moltres ends up BL, and does have some advantages of its own. Zard being so much faster is nice for outrunning Drapion, Jynx, Arcanine (LOLPRIORITY), Houndoom, and Moltres (at least for now). In addition to that speed, Blaze is pretty bitchin'.
But at least the fucking Toxic Staller set would die, I guess. Let's all take solace in that...
But at least the fucking Toxic Staller set would die, I guess. Let's all take solace in that...
Why would the Toxic Staller set go bye-bye? Charizard can learn Subsitute, Roost, Toxic, and Flamethrower. And it's faster. The only downside is that it can't substall Stone Edges because it doesn't have Pressure.
As a side note, Dugtrio + Beat Up = No more Chansey. Can't Toxic stall vs an OHKO.
As a side note, Dugtrio + Beat Up = No more Chansey. Can't Toxic stall vs an OHKO.
You just posted the main reason. Pressure is so much better then blaze for a substaller
Pressure is one of Moltres' biggest tools of SubStalling success. Outstalling Stone Edges is absolutely invaluable.
Question: how many gullible people here seriously challenged j. franky's "Dugtrio = Suspect" statement? Be honest. Though props to a select few for playing along in an obvious manner.
Anyway, it turns out that life has caught up with me recently and I won't be able to participate in this voting period either. This Easter weekend is the only significant free time I will get, and most of that will be doing family stuff, so yeah. Raikou was next on my list of suspects to thoroughly test, but it is up to everybody else now to decide that one. I'm not bothered which way that goes so long as the voters make every effort to make sure the decision is correct.
Anyway, it turns out that life has caught up with me recently and I won't be able to participate in this voting period either. This Easter weekend is the only significant free time I will get, and most of that will be doing family stuff, so yeah. Raikou was next on my list of suspects to thoroughly test, but it is up to everybody else now to decide that one. I'm not bothered which way that goes so long as the voters make every effort to make sure the decision is correct.
Beat Up.
FlareBlitz said:
This is basically the first time I've ever fully agreed with FlareBlitz. The reasons for people suggesting that Dugtrio is BL are completely absurd.
"U CANT SWITCH U LOSE LOL".
Give me a break. It can't do shit to any team that doesn't run Chansey or Registeel. Even Pokemon it "would beat" still fuck it over with priority. SubLO Dugtrio is the best set, but the lack of Sucker Punch hurts.
Dugtrio is just a completely specialized Pokemon for removing Chansey and Registeel. Same with Magmortar. Same with Blaziken. Same with Nidoking. Same with <insert mixed attacker>.
I've just been using rain dance, getting me to a CRE of 1544 so far, amd I don't find it broken in the least. It's hard to beat good players with it. Any person who switches smart can beat it by outstalling it, then sweeping with something else.
So yeah, even though I know a ton about UU, I get too frustrated every time I play a few matches because stuff like this happens.
All in the same match. (Note that both Poliwrath and Clefable would have survived and KOed with Waterfall and LO Thunderbolt respectively. Registeel could have Exploded or used EQ.)
So yeah, sorry to disappoint but I don't feel like qualifying anymore due to all of this bullshit that happens every single time I try.
Code:
present danger switched in Registeel (lvl 100 Registeel).
Raikou used Thunderbolt.
A critical hit!
Registeel lost 84% of its health.
Raikou lost 10% of its health.
and
Moltres used Air Slash.
It's super effective!
Poliwrath lost 54% of its health.
Poliwrath woke up!
Poliwrath flinched!
and
Moltres used Air Slash.
A critical hit!
Clefable lost 73% of its health.
present danger's Clefable fainted.All in the same match. (Note that both Poliwrath and Clefable would have survived and KOed with Waterfall and LO Thunderbolt respectively. Registeel could have Exploded or used EQ.)
So yeah, sorry to disappoint but I don't feel like qualifying anymore due to all of this bullshit that happens every single time I try.
While there were kind of a lot of bad posts related to this, this one was by far the worst so I thought I should say something since I thing to improve argumentation in this topic a bit in general...
As much as I have to give you credit for making one of the more whined about posts I have seen without actually saying anything, this post is useless and if I had the power to infract you in this forum right now I would.
As much as I agree that the Dugtrio for suspect thing is ridiculous if it was meant to be taken seriously (though franky is making good use of it. I've said since it dropped down it was good enough to be a top 5-10 Pokemon, glad at least some people are finally using it...), this post is basically one big slippery slope logical fallacy.
You're way past the point of metaphor. If you want to make an intelligent point about why the Dugtrio for BL thing is ridiculous, then do it. If not keep the terrible Magikarp jokes in your head.
I don't think I could disagree more with this one, and I think thinking the way this post does is a lot of why Dugtrio's usage is a lot lower than it "should be." Duggy is the ultimate revenge killer just because you don't have that option of going to switching out to the appropriate counter. If Sceptile or Swellow or whatever is bearing down on my mid to low HP Moltres (bad example since it's /Flying but play along with me) or Raikou or Venusaur or whatever I can just swap out to one of my teammates and it's no big thing. Duggy doesn't allow that, and he's at least as good against offensive teams as stall because of it - there isn't much many Pokemon can do if they're caught in with him, and there's no way to avoid that after a kill. Even using U-turn and the free switches that always exist in magic help him, he does a hell of a lot more than break walls if you're playing him right. Nothing else, including the Magnemite family, does the job nearly as well... I think people should be taking him a lot more seriously, as much as "suspect" is embellishment.
As much as I have to give you credit for making one of the more whined about posts I have seen without actually saying anything, this post is useless and if I had the power to infract you in this forum right now I would.
As much as I agree that the Dugtrio for suspect thing is ridiculous if it was meant to be taken seriously (though franky is making good use of it. I've said since it dropped down it was good enough to be a top 5-10 Pokemon, glad at least some people are finally using it...), this post is basically one big slippery slope logical fallacy.
You're way past the point of metaphor. If you want to make an intelligent point about why the Dugtrio for BL thing is ridiculous, then do it. If not keep the terrible Magikarp jokes in your head.
Heysup said:
I don't think I could disagree more with this one, and I think thinking the way this post does is a lot of why Dugtrio's usage is a lot lower than it "should be." Duggy is the ultimate revenge killer just because you don't have that option of going to switching out to the appropriate counter. If Sceptile or Swellow or whatever is bearing down on my mid to low HP Moltres (bad example since it's /Flying but play along with me) or Raikou or Venusaur or whatever I can just swap out to one of my teammates and it's no big thing. Duggy doesn't allow that, and he's at least as good against offensive teams as stall because of it - there isn't much many Pokemon can do if they're caught in with him, and there's no way to avoid that after a kill. Even using U-turn and the free switches that always exist in magic help him, he does a hell of a lot more than break walls if you're playing him right. Nothing else, including the Magnemite family, does the job nearly as well... I think people should be taking him a lot more seriously, as much as "suspect" is embellishment.
You have got to be kidding me.
The problem with using Duggy as a generic revenge killer is that it just doesn't have enough power to do its job properly. Offensive Venusaur, for example, takes an unimpressive 59.1% - 69.8% from LO EQ. It doesn't even ohko Rhyperior for god's sake. The only things Duggy can reliably revenge kill are Pokemon weak to Ground, without priority, and Pokemon without levitate. When you get down to it that's a very small (but still somewhat significant) list of Pokemon.
I'm not saying Dugtrio is necessarily a bad Pokemon. I'm saving it's a Pokemon with a very specific niche, in which it performs very well, but outside of which it is just not useful. And certainly nowhere near BL (I know it was a joke but the amount of serious agreement to it warrants me repeating this)
I'm not saying Dugtrio is necessarily a bad Pokemon. I'm saving it's a Pokemon with a very specific niche, in which it performs very well, but outside of which it is just not useful. And certainly nowhere near BL (I know it was a joke but the amount of serious agreement to it warrants me repeating this)
While my post was clearly irrational I was attempting to make a 'subtle' statement on how people are constantly trying to get something to suspect status. Ok, Moltres, Raikou, and Froslass are potential suspects but their points have been argued over and over. Nothing new can be said about them. Then Dugtrio pops up, then who ever.
Anyways, I've been testing an oddball Registeel set loosely based on Baitlix.
Registeel@Lum Berry
252Hp 100Atk 156 SDef
-IronHead
-Curse
-Counter
-Explosion
Turn 1: Curse
Now depending on his switch-in, choose the appropriate move. Some examples;
Moltres: Explosion
Venusaur: Explosion
Rhyperior: Counter
Sure, you will lose Registeel in the process but removing a threat such as Venusaur or Moltres is well worth it, IMO.
yeah okay genius except that rhyperior and moltres could possibly substitute or the fact that moltres can still possibly ohko with lo fire blast -_- -_-
How many times have you seen Rhyperior Sub-Up on a Curse Registeel? I've yet to see it. Assuming SR is up on both sides, once Moltres switches in, it will tell you if it is SubStall or offensive via Leftover recovery or lack there-of; indicating your next move. Also, you really wouldn't lose out if you swapped out Lum Berry for Occa Berry. I'm sorry, I'm such a genius that I often forget I have to explain every minor detail to those who cannot figure a solution for themselves..
God why are people being so catty, we're all friends here. :)
Regarding Duggy, I'm kind of on the fence here. I mean, most of you guys fighting people who use Dugtrio probably just witness them switch it in on Steelix or whatever without even thinking, only to have it killed in the process while not even eliminating what it's supposed to. In the right hands, however, it's certainly a big threat that can definitely 'support' its teammates to sweep. Now, I'm pretty sure you can't just pack a team full of Raikou or Moltres counters and expect to suceed, so teams usually only have 1 counter to these threats, and these threats are easily picked off by Dugtrio. Whether this means Dugtrio or Raikou or Moltres is broken I'm not exactly sure, but I think if someone wants to discuss Dugtrio being broken it shouldn't be met with "omg you wanna ban everything," "LOL Dugtrio," and other things. And for those who complain that UU would be a stall fest, please come up with reasons as to why defensive pokemon should be suspects. I'm actually rather interested in having a few defensive suspects, because defensive Pokemon are definitely underrated within UU. Wasn't Milotic nominated some time ago? That's a good starting point, with Raikou and Froslass's Spikes gone it could be even more difficult to defeat.
Regarding Duggy, I'm kind of on the fence here. I mean, most of you guys fighting people who use Dugtrio probably just witness them switch it in on Steelix or whatever without even thinking, only to have it killed in the process while not even eliminating what it's supposed to. In the right hands, however, it's certainly a big threat that can definitely 'support' its teammates to sweep. Now, I'm pretty sure you can't just pack a team full of Raikou or Moltres counters and expect to suceed, so teams usually only have 1 counter to these threats, and these threats are easily picked off by Dugtrio. Whether this means Dugtrio or Raikou or Moltres is broken I'm not exactly sure, but I think if someone wants to discuss Dugtrio being broken it shouldn't be met with "omg you wanna ban everything," "LOL Dugtrio," and other things. And for those who complain that UU would be a stall fest, please come up with reasons as to why defensive pokemon should be suspects. I'm actually rather interested in having a few defensive suspects, because defensive Pokemon are definitely underrated within UU. Wasn't Milotic nominated some time ago? That's a good starting point, with Raikou and Froslass's Spikes gone it could be even more difficult to defeat.
Care to elaborate? Does it not fit the characteristic nicely? It does support another Pokemon, making their sweeps sufficiently easier. If you can't grab this simple concept then I don't know anymore.
I've said this many times in this thread, LO Dugtrio is not a good set to run. Dugtrio has 80 Base Atk - nothing impressive. Your best shot is running Choice Band. You don't like set up bait? bring something that will check levitators who decide to set-up, its simple as that.
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