Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Tentacruel is really pretty much equal with Feraligatr stat wise, and it has dual STABS and better resistances, so I can't see them not being in the same tier.
Similar base stat total != statistically similar. For in-game purposes, attack stats are what matter most, and Feraligatr severely outclasses Tentacruel. Feraligatr has a 105 attack and 79 special attack. Tentacruel's best attack stat, special attack, just barely beats out Feraligatr's worst attack stat, at 80 base, and Tentacruel's attack is even worse. Feraligatr has a better stat total than Tentacruel, but more importantly, he has stats in categories where it matters.
Plus, you don't even get to make the Feraligatr/Tentacruel comparison until level 30. Until then it's Totodile/Tentacool, which Totodile wins, and Croconaw/Tentacool, which Croconaw wins even harder. You don't spend the entire game in the 30+ level range. In fact, what comes before that point is what tends to matter most.
Tentacool is quite mediocre. I think the main reason it's so high is its utility factor (it's one of the best HM slaves in the game and it's available from very early on), but I'm thinking that perhaps it should be lowered. It seems to be about as good as Chinchou (water hybrid, tank, slow experience group), though possibly worse for the fact that Chinchou naturally learns a decent special non-water STAB while Tentacool needs a TM to learn Sludge Bomb.
What's Yanma doing in High? I used in my main playthrough and it's terrible. You have to rely on Sonic Boom to do damage until Kanto, since U-turn will force you out. Sonic Boom might be able to 2HKO things when you first get it, but soon you'll only be able to 3HKO things and you have to use Foresight to hit Ghosts. Tinted Lens Bug Buzz/Air Slash seems good at first, but then you realize that it doesn't learn them until you're well into Kanto. In my Heart Gold, I beat Blue and it still doesn't have either of those attacks. It is possible to win Silver Wind from the Goldenrod Dept. Store on a certain day, but I'm almost certain you have a better chance to get a Scyther.
Butterfree is atleast as good as Yanma, due to a nearly acurate Sleep Powder and still being able to 2HKO most things with Confusion/Gust at the same time you get Yanma, so I think Yanma should be moved down to mid. Also, I'd probably move Caterpie to Upper Mid since Sleep Powder means that you can often KO Pokemon without taking any damage and it learns good STABs at reasonable levels, unlike most other Bug Pokemon.
Chinchou definately needs to be moved up. It might not be great when you first get it, but after 8 levels, it evolves into Lanturn which is quite bulky and it doesn't really need high SpAtk because it has STAB Water and Electric attacks. You may get it a little late, but it's still great to use against the last 4 gyms, since it completely walls Jasmine and is better than Ampharos against Claire due to having Ice Beam/Blizzard and more Special Bulk. I don't think it should be with Mareep, since you can't have it for Falkner, but it should atleast be Upper Mid with Magnemite and Voltorb.
Also, was Girafarig's placement in Low based on actual usage or theorymon because I used one in my main playthrough and I never had a problem with it, besides it being at a little lower level than the rest of my Pokemon when I first got it (I went straight to Mahogany right after beating Morty, BTW). It basically starts out with Strength and learns Psybeam in a few levels and you can even teach it Return for a better STAB. It doesn't even neccesarily need Shadow Ball because it learns Payback and Crunch by level up and it learns Psychic a little earlier than Alakazam. It might not be particularly useful against the Johto gym leaders but it's great against Sabrina and Janine as well as Will, Koga, and Bruno. It should atleast be moved up to Mid with Espeon, since it's easier to train when you first get it and has a much better level up movepool, even if it does have a lower SpAtk and Spe. BTW, Girafarig should be hitting about the same as Espeon with its STAB Psychic attacks until you get to Kanto and get Psychic for Espeon (or play the annoying Voltorb Flip for forever and I think the general consensis is that it's basically a waste of time) since Girafarig will have Psybeam all but 4 levels that Espeon has Confusion and will have Psychic all but 1 level that Espeon has Psybeam.
I played through the game with Scyther and Cyndaquil and I have to say that Technician Scyther absolutely decimates everything it faces. I was able to beat all of Morty's gym with a lvl 15 Scyther just by spamming Pursuit. By this point it had Wing Attack and was set for the rest of the game. I'd call it low Uber (due to it's rarity) or high Top tier.
I used Chinchou on my latest run. A few observations:
The good: It doesn't require any extra power-leveling. It take on the Olivine Lighthouse on its own with minimal potion usage and the Thunder TM. (It's doable without the Thunder TM, but I probably would have run out of PP for Spark if I didn't have Thunder to kill Reflect Noctowl and Harden Krabby.) It's usable right out of the box and I was using it pretty much constantly throughout the entire game. Electric is a really good type (even moreso with a water STAB to compliment it). The only parts where Laturn had trouble were in the rival battle against Meganium (not an issue if you picked Chikorita or Cyndaquil, in which case Laturn has the advantage) and a few cases where Blizzard missed against Pokemon like Gloom, causing me to get poisoned or paralyzed. (These status ailments are ridiculously cheap to cure, so it's more of an annoyance than anything.) Note that Laturn kind of needs the Avalanche TM if you want it to take on the Dragon gym alone. I also had to cheese my way past Clair by spamming battle items (X-speed and X-special) to beat Kingdra.
The bad: Lanturn has high HP but mediocre defenses. While it is a good tank, healing it with potions is less economical, and not really an option in battles. This meant I was burning through Fresh Waters out of battle even when I might not have needed it because I was afraid of getting stuck healing in battle. Laturn also has rather underwhelming attack stats. Lanturn worked beautifully against three of the five Kimono girls, but Umbreon and Espeon were killing me faster than I could kill them even with a super effective Signal Beam. (Lanturn was level 40 at the time.) Also, Lanturn is a massive experience hog. Lanturn consumed all of the experience available between Olivine and Blackthorn and was still barely staying the course. (It was ~5 levels above most trainers, but just even with most rocket executives and gym leaders.) The only experience my Feraligatr got during this time was from the gym in Cianwood (where Chinchou wasn't strong enough to be killing things on its own) and Blackthorn (where I used Ice Fang instead of Avalanche).
That being said, if Magikarp is going to stay in high, Chinchou deserves at least upper mid. It evolves 7 levels later, but unlike Magikarp it isn't totally useless before it evolves, and Magikarp -> Gyarados suffers from issues like a lack of good physical attacks right off the bat. Also, Swinub is in upper mid for some reason, and Chinchou is probably better than Swinub.
Swinub kind of requires Heart Scales to be useful. I dunno.
In response to everything else, argue Girafarig over something. I'll think about putting Lanturn up and Magikarp down a bit. And, puggy asked me this so I'm asking here:
Availability
In instances where routes are forked (ie after you beat Morty you can go to Olivine or Mahogany), when comparing both Pokemon of the opposite route, assume they are given higher priority to be obtained first. So, in other words, if it's Gyarados vs. Kangaskhan, assume we get Gyarados first for Gyarados's side and Kangaskhan first for Kangaskhan's side.
Although it is possible to visit Mahogany before Cianwood, I'd say that anything that the "ideal" route is to do Cianwood first, since it gives you Fly. If you get the Red Gyarados ASAP, you need to make your way from Lake of Rage to Ecruteak on foot and consume several repels in the process. Deviations from the "standard" route are acceptable (a level 30 Gyarados before you visit Olivine is worth the detour) but they do consume a resource known as "time."
Bear in mind: there are very few forced battles between Ecruteak and Cianwood. Swimmers are skippable, and so are most of the trainers between Ecruteak and Olivine are skippable as well. Going directly from Ecruteak to Cianwood to get the fly TM (and get Cianwood marked on your map so you can fly back when you clear the Olivine lighthouse) might be the better route even if you plan to obtain Gyarados, since the worst that happens is that he misses out on the chance to fight Chuck.
Does anyone know what the drop rate for Heart Scales is?
Not sure on the drop rate, but from personal experience it has not taken me more than four or five rounds of clearing the rocks in Cianwood to get one.
Why are Miltank and Kangaskhan in the same tier? Miltank is obtained around Ecruteak, while Kangaskhan comes from the moment you can use the Pokewalker. I would say that Miltank either has to go down a tier to Mid(not recommended, as it has some pretty neat moves), or Kangaskhan be moved up a tier to Top(I would suggest this, as a Scrappy Kangaskhan gets enough moves from level-up and maybe HMs(Strength specifically) to tear apart Johto.
Pushing for Elekid/Electabuzz to be much higher, possibly high or at least upper-mid. Poke-walker pokemon take almost no time whatsoever to obtain, and as jumpman pointed out, it comes pre-equipped with an early learned thunderpunch and low kick. This dominates Falkner and Whitney, he does great against Chuck and Jasmine, his high speed and SpA make him great against Morty and he even fares well against Claire. While Electivire may be almost entirely out of reach in-game, Electabuzz simply boosts his stats even more upon evolution.
By far the best electric poke possibly, especially as early as you can get it.
I have to make the PokeWalker-separate tier list. People do play this game on a ROM so they don't have access to these Pokemon that come earlier, or others like me that see no reason to use the Pokewalker whatsoever. I'll need a couple days for it.
I dunno about the Heart Scale ordeal. I think Pokemon that absolutely require it (i.e. Mamoswine) have enough of a push to go down.
To be honest, if pokewalker is going to be a separate list there isn't much point. It takes almost no time getting the required watts (20 steps per watt) to unlock the areas, so availability doesn't really play a role. If we made a pokewalker tier list it would merely be a list of the pokewalker pokes from best to worst, which I guess is the point, but it seems unnecessary IMO. I'll help with the tier list for pokewalker if you end up making it though.
Well, if you're going to play large portions of the game per sitting, the Pokewalker isn't so great anymore. You could probably get to the E4 in a day.
To be honest, if pokewalker is going to be a separate list there isn't much point. It takes almost no time getting the required watts (20 steps per watt) to unlock the areas, so availability doesn't really play a role. If we made a pokewalker tier list it would merely be a list of the pokewalker pokes from best to worst, which I guess is the point, but it seems unnecessary IMO. I'll help with the tier list for pokewalker if you end up making it though.
No no, you're misunderstanding the point here. The "Pokewalker" list is nothing more but the normal tier list with the Pokewalker Pokemon placed in their respective tiers. So think of it like this:
Ooooh I see, that makes sense then. Well the offer still stands if you want some help making the list, unless you're planning on just going through these posts and just compiling the arguments that have already been made.
What's Yanma doing in High? I used in my main playthrough and it's terrible. You have to rely on Sonic Boom to do damage until Kanto, since U-turn will force you out. Sonic Boom might be able to 2HKO things when you first get it, but soon you'll only be able to 3HKO things and you have to use Foresight to hit Ghosts. Tinted Lens Bug Buzz/Air Slash seems good at first, but then you realize that it doesn't learn them until you're well into Kanto. In my Heart Gold, I beat Blue and it still doesn't have either of those attacks. It is possible to win Silver Wind from the Goldenrod Dept. Store on a certain day, but I'm almost certain you have a better chance to get a Scyther.
Butterfree is atleast as good as Yanma, due to a nearly acurate Sleep Powder and still being able to 2HKO most things with Confusion/Gust at the same time you get Yanma, so I think Yanma should be moved down to mid. Also, I'd probably move Caterpie to Upper Mid since Sleep Powder means that you can often KO Pokemon without taking any damage and it learns good STABs at reasonable levels, unlike most other Bug Pokemon.
So? Ancientpower gives Yanmega something nice to work with post SonicBoom, plus it gets Shadow Ball for right after Morty. (plus, of course, Headbutt tutor.) I use it and it's still good against what it hits. You also get Bug Buzz/Air Slash for Red and the E4 rematch. And yes, Blue's Exegcutor hates U-Turn.
Also, Bellsprout is the earliest status-er in the game, and when it NEEDS good STAB around Mahogany, it gets Sludge Bomb. Once Sludge Bomb is learned, OWNAGE.
Why is ONIX so low? It destroys the 1-3 gyms. It has great speed and defense and is easy to obtain. Of course, it isn't so good later on so that must be why it's mid...
Actually, if you can trade it (Wi-Fi makes this easy) Steelix is one of the best physical walls in the game. (I'm also pretty sure Metal Coat is a Pokeathelon prize...) It also completely walls Koga's annoying MiniMuk...and it HYPOTHETICALLY (haven't gotten to it yet, based on Bulbapedia's info about Red's Pikachu) can take Red's Pikachu with flying colors. (Immune to volt tackle and I think Thunder, resists Iron Tail unlike the still-outsped Golem, something I found rather annoying about Graveler/Golem in my Platinum playthrough versus Volkner and probably magnified by a million times at level 88+Light Ball, and unlike Golem, you're packing the best non-Shuckle/Regi-defenses (it ties with Regirock) in the entire game.) Not the best: Onix unevolved after about Whitney gets hard to use, but Steelix's ultimate utility as a physical wall should almost certainly put Onix at at least Upper-Mid...besides, in the long run I'm pretty sure Steelix beats out Golem due to Steel-typing.
EDIT: Not counting trading (according to front page), Onix should be Low. But keep in mind that also puts Graveler and Geodude at about Low as well: Graveler may be more powerful than Onix, but it still really doesn't get much besides Revive+Selfdestruct (which cost money and useful Revives) and level-up Ground-type moves. (Alright, so that still makes it more useful than Onix, but without trades Geodude is HARDLY Uber...)
EDIT2: Don't know if anyone will see this...but Steelix actually DOES wall Red's Pikachu with an OHKO from TM EQ.
Two placings here seem odd to me. First off, Nidoran-M being way up there. Sure, you can evolve it early, but what are you going to give it to learn? Strength/Thrash, Dig, Double Kick and I guess Fire Blast/Thunder/Blizzard is probably the best you can do if you evolve it early, and if you want to evolve it late, it takes forever for it to learn the one useful move you might want (Poison Jab), and is pathetically weak in the meantime. Later on, you can give it Sludge Bomb, but it has terrible coverage and you have four in-game Poison types who can learn it with better SpA - Gengar, Victreebel, Vileplume and Venomoth. Earthquake is great, but it's gotten extremely late, Nidoking could probably have learned Earth Power by then, and the move is almost completely useless against the Elite Four (unless you're having huge problems with Koga's Muk).
I also think that Hoppip is too low. It's by no means a sweeper, but a super quick Sleep Powder is fantastic for support, and combined with Headbutt and the Hoppip line's high speed, you can put the opposing Pokémon to sleep, flinch it when it wakes up, and put it back to sleep again. Granted, it doesn't have a high chance of happening, but it still happens often enough to be very useful. Throw in Leech Seed and you've got a Pokémon that's surprisingly difficult to kill (even more so if you decide to keep Synthesis). The lack of a decent Grass move does hurt, but Hoppip's definitely good enough to be above the likes of Spinarak (who has nothing going for it apart from Night Shade + priority).
Uhh here is why Geodude is much better:
-It dominates the first 3 gyms and is helpful with Morty and Jasmine
-It learns solid rock moves like Rock Throw (which is great for the beginning of the game) Rollout and Rock Blast
-It naturally learns Magnitude (so you don't have to give up the valuable Dig TM) and Earthquake which doesn't need an introduction
-It doesn't hog EXP at all
-Geodude/Graveler have much higher Atk stats than Onix, and even when you get a Steelix they have higher. Then when you compare Onix and Golem it isn't even fair
If you get Onix:
-It doesn't learn any worth while moves until level 38 when it finally gets Iron tail which tbh is a terrible attacking move to begin with (Steel hits basically nothing for SE Damage)
-If you want to evolve it into a Steelix you will need to grind the Pokeathlon for awhile (which I guess isn't a huge deal)
-You are going to need to grind Onix because it isn't OHKOing stuff
Both compared
-Both pokemon get the same abilities
-You need to trade both to get maximum ability out of them
-They both get Rock Polish which is necessary to contemplate sweeping
What Onix has over Geodude:
-You have the ability to trade the Bellsprout for an Onix which allows you to me more flexible about the Exp part, but that also means you get a generally inferior pokemon anyway
-??? Not sure what else
You can argue why Onix is much better, but it is beaten in pretty much every instance, so I'll stick with Geodude
You can get metal coats from wild Magnemites before the fourth gym. There's only a 5% chance, though. What that also involves is either lots of great balls to catch lots of them or lots of soft-resetting. Either way, it's rather time-consuming.
No no, you're misunderstanding the point here. The "Pokewalker" list is nothing more but the normal tier list with the Pokewalker Pokemon placed in their respective tiers. So think of it like this:
Both lists will be identical, sans the Poke-walker specific entries. Based on this, wouldn't it make more sense to just have one list, with Poke-Walker Pokemon noted as such? Example:
If you think of the tier lists for Fire Emblem 8, we don't assemble two separate tier lists even though different characters come at different times depending on what route you take, characters like Dussel and Knoll just get tiered twice, with a little note indicating which route that entry is for. It's also good for distinguishing Safari Zone Kangaskhan from PokeWalker Kangaskhan for PokeWalker playthroughs.
Several things regarding Pokemon that come at multiple times:
Caterpie should be split into three entries: Caterpie (Heart Gold), Caterpie (Soul Silver), and Butterfree. They all belong in different tiers. Caterpie (Soul Silver) is bottom tier or worse, Caterpie (Heart Gold) is slightly better than Butterfree but the separation might not be a whole tier.
Steelix should receive its own entry. I think Steelix should be tiered below Onix. The only reason Onix is as high as it is is because it does well against the first three gyms, and Steelix comes after that time. Steelix requires a detour, has a 2% appearance rate, and is generally mediocre for most of the game: it comes at level 22 and doesn't learn a STAB until level 41 when it gets the 75% accurate Iron Tail. Steelix retains all of Onix's worse attributes (shoddy movepool and underwhelming stats) while losing everything that makes it usable (type advantage against the first three gyms). It belongs in low tier at best.
Pokemon that come via Pokewalker in addition to the regular game need to be tiered twice. Electabuzz is garbage, but Elekid (PokeWalker) is great.
If you think of the tier lists for Fire Emblem 8, we don't assemble two separate tier lists even though different characters come at different times depending on what route you take, characters like Dussel and Knoll just get tiered twice, with a little note indicating which route that entry is for. It's also good for distinguishing Safari Zone Kangaskhan from PokeWalker Kangaskhan for PokeWalker playthroughs.
I dunno if Mekkah told you this (and if he hasn't, it's cool), but a lot has changed in regards to that. I'm just going to give you a sneak peak on that, as we actually have been tiering units from different routes. Otherwise, say in Fire Emblem 6, it gets rather messy when I place something like Klein (Ilia) and Klein (Sacae).
I'm just going to copy -> paste to show you what I mean:
Granted, I guess it is theoretically possible to put tags after them, specifying that certain Pokemon come at different times (for example, I guess you can get Steelix. I didn't really know that. @_@...). I was thinking PokeWalker in particular more like Radiant Dawn Transfers. Some people don't like looking particularly assuming there is transfers, so there's two tier lists to accommodate that.
Still, there are two things that make me think about this. Now do I tier with contributions towards the time taken to get these Pokemon? Remember that unlike Scyther, which I can go seek out in the Bug Catching Contest, I have to actually consume real-life time in order to obtain that Pokemon. Then another question that comes along is that do we assume it despite it technically being out-of-cartridge, if you understand what I'm getting at. If not, most tier lists don't tier Pokemon based on trade evolutions since it clashes with requirements of a second cartridge in order to do so. I guess WiFi does apply, which most people nowadays have, but I always felt that it should be strictly based on what you are given within the cartridge and no outside sources. Of course, exceptions can be made. I just want to make sure that we are rather consistent with it.
Nevertheless, if there is a major difference between Pokemon (i.e. Elekid and Electabuzz or Onix and Steelix, Caterpie, etc.), then I will tier the second Pokemon.
