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Chandelure
- Thread starter tennisace
- Start date
I disagree. Shandera's a solid pokemon to use, but is like man- dies to pokemon with move. You need decent prediction skills to actually abuse shadow tag (or in my case, Flash Fire).
well, I can't argue with that. -_-
The purpose of nitro charge on Shandera sets is to get a speed boost, not to do any significant amount of damage with it.
The main problem that I see in this set is that it gets walled by Heatran. Heatran can come in on Fire Blast or Nitro Charge and get a boost in its own Fire attacks. Instead of Energy Ball, Hidden Power (Fighting or Ground) can go in the last slot.
Unless Shandera can outrun Heatran AND has a sub, you'll always lose.
Shandy uses HP Ground, massive damage. Heatran survives, and OHKOs back with Earth Power.
Shadow ball would work the same as psychic would on those guys, I'd imagine, so psychic is kinda useless.
Shadow Ball has 120 base power against fighters, whereas Fire Blast and Psychic have 180.
As I predicted, overall Shanderaa isnt as omgwtf powerful as most people thought. Scarf Shanderaa isnt defintely the most useful since Shandy really needs the speed, and Clam Mind will NEVER sweep a team if its that slow, and that's IF it somehow finds a chance to set up.
Actually, you can cleansweep a Trick Room team if you manage to get the 6 Ca--Clam Minds and don't let them set up. This bizarre scenario is the ONLY team I managed to sweep. Encore'd a Trick Room Bronzong, switched Shandy in...you know what happens next. (CM / Nitro Charge / Fire blast / Shadow Ball)
I've just noticed that Shanderaa is much like Dugtrio in reverse.
Both have abilities that trap pokemon and both have crippling flaws in their stats.
To explain, both have a lackluster stat that sets them back. Dugtrio has never been valued for its high attack, nor is it now; however, it is very fast. While Shanderaa is far less frail than Dugtrio, Ghost and Fire are types plagued with weaknesses and Shanderaa's poor base speed forces it to be reliant on a Choice Scarf, Baton Pass, or Nitro Charge for the speed it needs. However, it even finds problems here, as Doryuuzu still outspeeds it in the Sand, unless it has a +3 boost or a scarf and a +2 boost. Much like Dugtrio's speed, Shanderaa's SpA is through the roof. This provides a paralell between the two - while they can eliminate some threats, they have great problems in doing much after they've accomplished this due to one lackluster stat. It is this that causes Shanderaa to be far less broken than it seems.
Both have abilities that trap pokemon and both have crippling flaws in their stats.
To explain, both have a lackluster stat that sets them back. Dugtrio has never been valued for its high attack, nor is it now; however, it is very fast. While Shanderaa is far less frail than Dugtrio, Ghost and Fire are types plagued with weaknesses and Shanderaa's poor base speed forces it to be reliant on a Choice Scarf, Baton Pass, or Nitro Charge for the speed it needs. However, it even finds problems here, as Doryuuzu still outspeeds it in the Sand, unless it has a +3 boost or a scarf and a +2 boost. Much like Dugtrio's speed, Shanderaa's SpA is through the roof. This provides a paralell between the two - while they can eliminate some threats, they have great problems in doing much after they've accomplished this due to one lackluster stat. It is this that causes Shanderaa to be far less broken than it seems.
I think a lot of these qualms aren't taking into account that Shadow Tag means you can't switch out.
I don't think it was ever in question that Shandera would be perfectly fine without Shadow Tag, but it honestly seems a bit fishy to me that people can't take advantage of 140 base Sp. Att and the ability to trap anything you want to kill it with. And you're operating on 80 base speed with 60/90/90 defenses, so it's not the end of the world. Matter of fact, I can think of plenty of good uses for that right now. >_>
Not when Brozong is stuck with Shandy and forced to die. ^_^
I don't think it was ever in question that Shandera would be perfectly fine without Shadow Tag, but it honestly seems a bit fishy to me that people can't take advantage of 140 base Sp. Att and the ability to trap anything you want to kill it with. And you're operating on 80 base speed with 60/90/90 defenses, so it's not the end of the world. Matter of fact, I can think of plenty of good uses for that right now. >_>
Actually, after a single Calm Mind, you can 2KO some Blisseys. 60/90/90 isn't as good as it seems on paper, sadly.
60/90/90 defenses make it slightly better defensively than Starmie, who can be reasonably bulky with investment.
I actually had loads of success with SubCM. You don't sweep entire teams, but if you come in at the right time, you can basically guarantee a KO on the thing you switch into, the first thing your opponent sends out to break the sub, and then you can just switch out to Erefuun to screw over their set up hopes.
By the way, Substitute is so incredibly useful at the moment on so much stuff...
By the way, Substitute is so incredibly useful at the moment on so much stuff...
How about Zoroark as a counter? Using illusion, it can lure in Shandera, then KO it with some dark move. I also used Serebii's damage formula for some calculations:
Max SpA, neutral nature, Life Orb Night Burst vs. 252/0 Shandera=guaranteed OHKO.
Max Atk, positive nature, Life Orb Sucker Punch vs. 248/0 Shandera=gaurenteed OHKO. Same result if you use Pursuit on a fleeing Shandera, only it will always OHKO it with a 252/0 spread.
Note the opponent might run 248 HP EVs because HP maxes out at 324, which means 3 substitutes/Stealth Rock/Spikes switch-ins, etc.
On the plus side for Shandera, I found an item called the "bulb" or "plant bulb." It makes special attack rise when hit by a water attack, and though it is one time use, if it also provides an immunity to water (like Motor Drive does with electric, it's not necessary but encourages getting hit by electric attacks) it might be worth it.
Max SpA, neutral nature, Life Orb Night Burst vs. 252/0 Shandera=guaranteed OHKO.
Max Atk, positive nature, Life Orb Sucker Punch vs. 248/0 Shandera=gaurenteed OHKO. Same result if you use Pursuit on a fleeing Shandera, only it will always OHKO it with a 252/0 spread.
Note the opponent might run 248 HP EVs because HP maxes out at 324, which means 3 substitutes/Stealth Rock/Spikes switch-ins, etc.
On the plus side for Shandera, I found an item called the "bulb" or "plant bulb." It makes special attack rise when hit by a water attack, and though it is one time use, if it also provides an immunity to water (like Motor Drive does with electric, it's not necessary but encourages getting hit by electric attacks) it might be worth it.
I dont get why people keep expecting it to sweep =.=
80 speed means thats impossible, even at +6/+6. take it for what it is, if you come in on something that cant hurt you you are guaranteed 2 kills, and then you just leave when the 2nd revenge killer comes in after they sac'd something to kill your sub.
80 speed means thats impossible, even at +6/+6. take it for what it is, if you come in on something that cant hurt you you are guaranteed 2 kills, and then you just leave when the 2nd revenge killer comes in after they sac'd something to kill your sub.
For the item, I'd rather pick Ballon, since once again, everything carrying EQ.
>_> Normal, Fire (Flash fire), Ground, AND fighting immunities are so sexy, especially with Choice Scarf sets. As for Zoroark...yes.
Lol. I mean, Zoroark mindrapes Shandera, and then proceeds to OHKO and keep raping. It's not even funny. I've lost Shandy to like, 5 Zoroarks today. D: However, most of them were Specs Dark Pulse...
A bulkier spread bent on abusing Shadow Tag could work wonders, especially for stall teams. I think Shanderaa might be the way to go if you want to use stall effectively in this gen. Basically, trap something with Shadow Tag and then switch to a bulkier pokemon that can kill the trapped opponent without worry of being 2hko'd.
Something like this:
Shanderaa @ Balloon/Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP, 200 SPEED, 58 DEF
~Pain Split
~Will-O-Wisp
~Flamethrower
~Substitute
For those wondering, the speed EV's let you outrun Tyranitar without Choice Scarf, though it might be smarter to use more defense.
Something like this:
Shanderaa @ Balloon/Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP, 200 SPEED, 58 DEF
~Pain Split
~Will-O-Wisp
~Flamethrower
~Substitute
For those wondering, the speed EV's let you outrun Tyranitar without Choice Scarf, though it might be smarter to use more defense.
Not really, since you have U-Turn running around on a lot of leads.