I disagree with this. The original VGM limits were set based on the distribution of moves from real Pokemon, irrespective of how many VGMs were actually good on that Pokemon.
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CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 12a - (Complete Movepool Submissions)
- Thread starter reachzero
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I disagree with this. The original VGM limits were set based on the distribution of moves from real Pokemon, irrespective of how many VGMs were actually good on that Pokemon.
I'll close this thread at 2:06 PM EDT tomorrow, exactly 72 hours from the time of the OP. I like what I've seen from the submissions so far!
Edit for commentary:
Okay, it would have been nice if you guys had included the illegal egg move combinations so I didn't have to figure it out myself, but I finally added pretty much every remotely relevant illegal combo to the second page of my spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...21iWW9ZSUwzbEt4S3lZZlE&hl=en&authkey=CL2G8ZsP
While compiling these, I discovered something worth pointing out. Another reason why a full list of illegal egg move combinations is nice is that it shows which moves are extremely difficult to fit onto a competitive set! For instance, in petrie911's and jas61292's submissions, Aura Sphere and Rapid Spin are illegal together. This means that while each of these submissions theoretically have Rapid Spin, practically it would be rather difficult to construct a reasonably good set actually using Rapid Spin (especially given petrie911's submission, which also lacks Grass Knot). I imagine these users probably added Rapid Spin (a few others did similar things with other moves, especially Hurricane and Stealth Rock) for the sake of having them for the polls, since I don't really understand why you would add moves to the movepool without allowing them to be legal with the moves that would make Tomohawk usable to begin with.
The moral of this story? When there is a move that nearly every competitive set must have (like Aura Sphere), please, please don't put it in the egg moves. :chaos:
Edit for commentary:
Okay, it would have been nice if you guys had included the illegal egg move combinations so I didn't have to figure it out myself, but I finally added pretty much every remotely relevant illegal combo to the second page of my spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...21iWW9ZSUwzbEt4S3lZZlE&hl=en&authkey=CL2G8ZsP
While compiling these, I discovered something worth pointing out. Another reason why a full list of illegal egg move combinations is nice is that it shows which moves are extremely difficult to fit onto a competitive set! For instance, in petrie911's and jas61292's submissions, Aura Sphere and Rapid Spin are illegal together. This means that while each of these submissions theoretically have Rapid Spin, practically it would be rather difficult to construct a reasonably good set actually using Rapid Spin (especially given petrie911's submission, which also lacks Grass Knot). I imagine these users probably added Rapid Spin (a few others did similar things with other moves, especially Hurricane and Stealth Rock) for the sake of having them for the polls, since I don't really understand why you would add moves to the movepool without allowing them to be legal with the moves that would make Tomohawk usable to begin with.
The moral of this story? When there is a move that nearly every competitive set must have (like Aura Sphere), please, please don't put it in the egg moves. :chaos:
Edited original post with the TMs/HMs list. If there's any discrepancy on what would or wouldn't be a VGM for Tomo, lemme know.
EDIT: Added Egg Moves, and adjusted some things. Still missing Level Up numbers and reasoning behind inclusions/exclusions.
EDIT#2: Added inclusion/exclusion reasoning.
Also, I could use some help in figuring out illegalities with the Egg Moves.
EDIT: Added Egg Moves, and adjusted some things. Still missing Level Up numbers and reasoning behind inclusions/exclusions.
EDIT#2: Added inclusion/exclusion reasoning.
Also, I could use some help in figuring out illegalities with the Egg Moves.
I disagree with your disagreement. If some non-VGMs can become VGMs when conditions are right, why not the reverse?
I'll give this a whirl.
Wish I had more time to work on this but I've probably spent too long already.
Level Up (16 moves, 7 VGMs)
H - Aerial Ace
H - Tailwind
H - Roost
1 - Tackle
1 - Growl
6 - Quick Attack
11 - Double Kick
16 - Odor Sleuth
21 - Reversal
26 - Fake Out
31 - Take Down
35 - Wing Attack (evolves at lv35)
43 - Scary Face
51 - Sky Drop
59 - Aura Sphere
67 - Air Slash
Prevo Only (3 moves, 3 VGMs)
Hyper Voice
Superpower
Double-Edge
H - Aerial Ace
H - Tailwind
H - Roost
1 - Tackle
1 - Growl
6 - Quick Attack
11 - Double Kick
16 - Odor Sleuth
21 - Reversal
26 - Fake Out
31 - Take Down
35 - Wing Attack (evolves at lv35)
43 - Scary Face
51 - Sky Drop
59 - Aura Sphere
67 - Air Slash
Prevo Only (3 moves, 3 VGMs)
Hyper Voice
Superpower
Double-Edge
TMs (38 moves, 18 VGMs)
TM01 - Hone Claws
TM05 - Roar
TM06 - Toxic
TM08 - Bulk Up
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM20 - Safeguard
TM21 - Frustration
TM27 - Return (identical move)
TM31 - Brick Break
TM32 - Double Team
TM40 - Aerial Ace (repeat)
TM41 - Torment
TM42 - Facade
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM46 - Thief
TM47 - Low Sweep
TM48 - Round
TM49 - Echoed Voice
TM51 - Ally Switch
TM52 - Focus Blast
TM54 - False Swipe
TM56 - Fling
TM58 - Sky Drop (repeated)
TM62 - Acrobatics
TM67 - Retaliate
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM80 - Rock Slide
TM83 - Work Up
TM86 - Grass Knot
TM87 - Swagger
TM89 - U-turn
TM90 - Substitute
TM94 - Rock Smash
TM95 - Snarl
HM02 - Fly
HM04 - Strength
TM01 - Hone Claws
TM05 - Roar
TM06 - Toxic
TM08 - Bulk Up
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM20 - Safeguard
TM21 - Frustration
TM27 - Return (identical move)
TM31 - Brick Break
TM32 - Double Team
TM40 - Aerial Ace (repeat)
TM41 - Torment
TM42 - Facade
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM46 - Thief
TM47 - Low Sweep
TM48 - Round
TM49 - Echoed Voice
TM51 - Ally Switch
TM52 - Focus Blast
TM54 - False Swipe
TM56 - Fling
TM58 - Sky Drop (repeated)
TM62 - Acrobatics
TM67 - Retaliate
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM80 - Rock Slide
TM83 - Work Up
TM86 - Grass Knot
TM87 - Swagger
TM89 - U-turn
TM90 - Substitute
TM94 - Rock Smash
TM95 - Snarl
HM02 - Fly
HM04 - Strength
Egg (Monster/Fairy) (12 moves, 9 VGMs)
Vacuum Wave
Baton Pass
Rapid Spin
Haze
Yawn
Encore
Icy Wind
Perish Song
Healing Wish
Me First
Snatch
Close Combat
Legal combos:
Vacuum Wave + Snatch (Breloom)
Baton Pass + Yawn + Encore (Togetic)
Baton Pass + Icy Wind (Skitty, Mawile)
Rapid Spin + Haze + Yawn + Icy Wind (Squirtle)
Yawn + Icy Wind + Me First (Slowbro)
Encore + Icy Wind + Healing Wish + Snatch (Clefairy)
Icy Wind + Perish Song (Lapras, Marill, Cubone)
Close Combat (Snubbull)
Illegal combos:
Vacuum Wave + Baton Pass, Rapid Spin, Haze, Yawn, Encore, Icy Wind, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Close Combat
Baton Pass + Rapid Spin, Haze, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat
Rapid Spin + Encore, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat
Haze + Encore, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat
Yawn + Perish Song, Snatch, Close Combat
Encore + Perish Song, Me First, Close Combat
Icy Wind + Close Combat
Perish Song + Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat
Healing Wish + Me First, Close Combat
Me First + Snatch, Close Combat
Snatch + Close Combat
Vacuum Wave
Baton Pass
Rapid Spin
Haze
Yawn
Encore
Icy Wind
Perish Song
Healing Wish
Me First
Snatch
Close Combat
Legal combos:
Vacuum Wave + Snatch (Breloom)
Baton Pass + Yawn + Encore (Togetic)
Baton Pass + Icy Wind (Skitty, Mawile)
Rapid Spin + Haze + Yawn + Icy Wind (Squirtle)
Yawn + Icy Wind + Me First (Slowbro)
Encore + Icy Wind + Healing Wish + Snatch (Clefairy)
Icy Wind + Perish Song (Lapras, Marill, Cubone)
Close Combat (Snubbull)
Illegal combos:
Vacuum Wave + Baton Pass, Rapid Spin, Haze, Yawn, Encore, Icy Wind, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Close Combat
Baton Pass + Rapid Spin, Haze, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat
Rapid Spin + Encore, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat
Haze + Encore, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat
Yawn + Perish Song, Snatch, Close Combat
Encore + Perish Song, Me First, Close Combat
Icy Wind + Close Combat
Perish Song + Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat
Healing Wish + Me First, Close Combat
Me First + Snatch, Close Combat
Snatch + Close Combat
Summary
Total Moves: 69
Total VGMs: 37
Notable Special Moves
Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
Air Slash
Hyper Voice
Grass Knot
Icy Wind
Snarl
Hidden Power
Vacuum Wave
Notable Physical Moves
Close Combat / Superpower / Brick Break
Acrobatics / Aerial Ace / Sky Drop
Return / Double-Edge
Rock Slide
Notable Other Moves
Roost
Rapid Spin
Roar / Haze / Yawn / Encore / Perish Song
Bulk Up / Work Up / Hone Claws
Baton Pass / U-turn
Sunny Day / Rain Dance / Tailwind
Scary Face
Torment
Safeguard
Healing Wish
Odor Sleuth
Me First / Snatch
Fake Out
Total Moves: 69
Total VGMs: 37
Notable Special Moves
Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
Air Slash
Hyper Voice
Grass Knot
Icy Wind
Snarl
Hidden Power
Vacuum Wave
Notable Physical Moves
Close Combat / Superpower / Brick Break
Acrobatics / Aerial Ace / Sky Drop
Return / Double-Edge
Rock Slide
Notable Other Moves
Roost
Rapid Spin
Roar / Haze / Yawn / Encore / Perish Song
Bulk Up / Work Up / Hone Claws
Baton Pass / U-turn
Sunny Day / Rain Dance / Tailwind
Scary Face
Torment
Safeguard
Healing Wish
Odor Sleuth
Me First / Snatch
Fake Out
Explanation
First off, what's missing? Hurricane and Heat Wave are probably the most glaring omissions, but I don't think Tomohawk needs either one. Hurricane is too powerful inside rain and too unreliable outside of it. A missed attack is certainly a momentum-killer, so instead of forcing people to run Hurricane for the power, I decided to force them to use the much safer Air Slash. (Including Focus Blast seems to contradict this somewhat, but every Fighting-type gets Focus Blast, and the power gap between it and Aura Sphere is small enough that you aren't forced to use it.) Heat Wave might be a more controversial omission, but with such redundant coverage alongside Tomohawk's STABs, its only real use would be on Choice sets, which I think most of us agree go against the concept. Grass Knot makes much more sense as the main coverage attack for sets that use three attack moves.
Support-wise, there were a lot of options I ended up leaving out because they seemed like overkill. Trick and Disable would both certainly stop an opponent's momentum, but they would also allow Tomohawk to defeat its own counters; Haze, Yawn, Encore, and Torment can all steal immediate momentum just as effectively without being broken. I strongly considered including Mean Look, but I felt that together with moves like Perish Song, Yawn, and Roost, it was too powerful, and making it illegal with those moves required changing Egg groups, which would remove some other options I like better.
Priority Baton Passing, whether it's dry passing or sending along 101 HP subs or boosts, is the definition of momentum in my mind. Rapid Spin is there for two reasons; first, removing hazards is a nice big-picture momentum changer (compared to the immediate effects of Encore/Haze/etc), but Rapid Spin is also a great way to make the opponent predictable, which is another important part of momentum. Icy Wind, Scary Face, and Snarl give Tomohawk additional tools to disrupt a sweep; Tailwind, U-turn, and Healing Wish are more offensive game-changers; Snatch and Me First give the bravest predictors a couple more entertaining tools.
First off, what's missing? Hurricane and Heat Wave are probably the most glaring omissions, but I don't think Tomohawk needs either one. Hurricane is too powerful inside rain and too unreliable outside of it. A missed attack is certainly a momentum-killer, so instead of forcing people to run Hurricane for the power, I decided to force them to use the much safer Air Slash. (Including Focus Blast seems to contradict this somewhat, but every Fighting-type gets Focus Blast, and the power gap between it and Aura Sphere is small enough that you aren't forced to use it.) Heat Wave might be a more controversial omission, but with such redundant coverage alongside Tomohawk's STABs, its only real use would be on Choice sets, which I think most of us agree go against the concept. Grass Knot makes much more sense as the main coverage attack for sets that use three attack moves.
Support-wise, there were a lot of options I ended up leaving out because they seemed like overkill. Trick and Disable would both certainly stop an opponent's momentum, but they would also allow Tomohawk to defeat its own counters; Haze, Yawn, Encore, and Torment can all steal immediate momentum just as effectively without being broken. I strongly considered including Mean Look, but I felt that together with moves like Perish Song, Yawn, and Roost, it was too powerful, and making it illegal with those moves required changing Egg groups, which would remove some other options I like better.
Priority Baton Passing, whether it's dry passing or sending along 101 HP subs or boosts, is the definition of momentum in my mind. Rapid Spin is there for two reasons; first, removing hazards is a nice big-picture momentum changer (compared to the immediate effects of Encore/Haze/etc), but Rapid Spin is also a great way to make the opponent predictable, which is another important part of momentum. Icy Wind, Scary Face, and Snarl give Tomohawk additional tools to disrupt a sweep; Tailwind, U-turn, and Healing Wish are more offensive game-changers; Snatch and Me First give the bravest predictors a couple more entertaining tools.
I talked with reachzero, and he disagrees entirely with my post suggesting any of that advice. For that reason, you should follow the VGMs exactly as they are on-site and not listen to anything I posted before (which I've now deleted). I apologize for the confusion.
I just wanted to say that I disagree with this sentiment. By putting good moves in its egg moves, and thus illegal with other useful moves, you are basically inputting a restriction preventing it from doing too much at once. Not only that but illegalities, both important and not so important, are just part of any Pokemon not in the ground egg group.
As far as competitively important ones, probably the best example would be Azumarril. Aqua Jet is used on almost every competitive set nowadays as a way to easily beat Excadrill in the sand. However, I'm sure most Azumarril would love to also have Belly Drum so that it could forgo the CB and boost up on the switch to decimate everyone. Unfortunately (or fortunately depenting on how you look at it), those moves are illegal together. That's just how it works sometimes.
As far as Tomohawk goes, having Aura Sphere illegal with moves is really not that big a restriction anyways. On my set at least, Rapid Spin is legal with all 3 of Tomos other important STABs (Hurricane, Air Slash, Focus Blast), so if you want to Spin, it is a completely viable strategy. The illegality is more of a check on it, than a measure to ensure its uselessness.
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