Doesn't solve the problem as Dragon Tail is blocked by Substitude(can you please think a second before making a new post? This back and forth posting is annoying)
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
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It's true enough that the power of Hurricane was part of the reason. But lots of Pokemon have such moves (even with similar stats), it's just that Tornadus's was better than them.
I'll concede that it wasn't solely the typing, though that did play a large part.
Of course most good Lugia sets do that. Lugia does most of its other sets worse. I was more of nitpicking, that although a Pokemon should do something, it's not obligated to do so by some underlying power. It was more of an issue with your word choice, I suppose. Let's let that be.mien said:
Obviously, Kyogre and Lugia are nothing alike, and if that's what you got of my post then you read it wrong. My point is that if getting 2HKOed by super effective attacks makes a Pokemon OU, then Kyogre would be OU also. Exploiting weaknesses will typically bring down most defensive Pokemon (please don't mention Elecitivire) and that's not the only way to judge its defensive prowess. "Lugia's performance in OU" is what matters here, but there's more there than your side of the debate has been admitting (admittedly, more than mine has as well).
Thing is, I agree that Kyogre shouldn't be mentioned. But my question is, why should Lugia? A case, similar to the one you made for Lugia, could be made for many Uber Pokemon. What distinguishes Lugia enough, makes it OU enough, to be brought down?
With the calc-talk, I was more responding to the Lugia-camp in general, but if I misquoted then my b.
As a matter of fact, I did read your proposal. A significant portion of your match-ups went along the lines of either "fears Toxic" or "neither can kill each other, but this one can set up and provide team support". The thing is, Lugia can also provide team support (typically through Dual Screens, but w/e) Lugia's not just going to sit there in front of those guys. Perhaps in a one-vs-one analysis, you're mostly correct, but Garchomp and Excadrill also fail to do their job (sweep) without team support. Perhaps Lugia cannot beat everything by itself, but with good support it could wall a significant portion (imagine if Ferrothorn did steroids) of the tier. I don't want to know how Lugia does against other threats. I want to know how a well-built Lugia team would fare against well-built OU teams in the current metagame. A lot of your current analyses either repeat of its Toxic-fear (*coughHealBellcough) or they imply that Lugia is a a sitting duck. If the match-ups for the team analyses look promising, you could convince me (maybe, I can be pretty stubborn and parochial), because that would be more realistic.
Not aimed at me, so....mien said:
On a non-Lugia note, I've been keeping up playing OU even though the round has ended. I'm finally convinced that weather sucks. I'd like to see Sandstorm stay because I honestly find it to be manageable. And I'd like to see Hail stay because lol@Hail-being-broken. But Drought and Drizzle have finally reached the tipping point on my personal little scale. I won't nominate them, but will people get Drought and Drizzle banned, please!
Literally the only thing that uses Sub + Taunt is Whimsicott. (And if you use Taunt and then switch to something with Sub, Lugia is Dragon Tailing you out.)
Every Pokemon is beaten by SOMETHING, it's just by how much and how often do we have to decide how much is too much for OU.
So the question is still unanswered, "What are you going to use to beat Lugia?"
Probably Gengar and spam Shadow Balls. Both the Pain Split and Disable set works.
I am personally not fond of Lugia, because I feel like it would further overcentralize the metagame to the top 20 core and maybe some few other mons that can take out Lugia. Everything else just gets walled and stalled to death. I can imagine the whole complaints about Chansey being in UU erupt in OU - "I am forced to use mons that could deal with Lugia or otherwise my entire team gets walled."
I appreciate the extent of effort you put into your proposal; they were all valid arguments for allowing Lugia in. I think what was missing in the proposal was whether or not Lugia would bring a positive or negative impact to the metagame. Yes, you have proven that Lugia would not be overpowering, despite its predetermined uber status, and indeed manageable by the standard OU mons. However, what would bringing down Lugia to OU accomplish? I personally think it would only worsen centralization around a certain OU core that could handle Lugia.
However, all of the recent posts about Lugia, including mine, have been mere theorymon, so I wouldn't mind Lugia having a period to stretch its wings in the OU metagame and see the actual influence to the metagame.
I'll address these points since they are the most concise/easily accessible points of debate, then.
This is an arbitrary assumption, you can't really have any idea of how a metagame with Lugia will shape up or its usage.
I beg to differ. I could just as easily say that Roost/Recover negates Lugia's weakness to Stealth Rock (in fact, it heals back twice as much damage as Lugia takes). Given Lugia's extremely high speed for a wall, a recovery attack, and godly defensive stats, Toxic is naturally one of the premier ways to take it down. Preventing the opponent from doing this in a passive manner is a huge boon.
As for being any successful wall, they do not need "complete immunity." Blissey is a successful wall and lacks it. You've mentioned Jellicent. Jirachi is not immune to Spikes (which are nearly as ubiquitous as Stealth Rock, if not moreso). Skarmory is not immune to SR...the list goes on. Moreover, these would still be used even if they weren't immune - Ground and Fighting resists make Gliscor a great physical tank, Skarmory has that great defense, Jirachi has one of the most successful defensive typings in the game, etc. Every wall has its flaws, and a lack of Toxic immunity just happens to be Lugia's (and Slowbro's, and Jellicent's, and Vaporeon.)
I would hardly call Ground immunity and 4x fighting resistance "unreliable," considering the fact that they are two of the best offensive types in the game. I'll give you grass and psychic, though. Also, remember that even despite their coverage, Lugia has the tools to makes those moves null and void. Reflect will halve their power and support the team while Roost heals (it admittedly does not remove the Dark/Ghost weakness). Consider Lugia's access to moves that can effectively deal with them both (STABs/Ice Beam) and the lack of defensive investment on most sweepers, it would take a seriously powerful attack to KO Lugia. As a point of reference, 244 HP / 24 / 236 Spe Timid Lugia (an Uber standard) is capable of surviving CBZekrom's STAB Bolt Strike with Stealth Rock included behind Reflect. List the current pokemon in OU that come anywhere near that kind of power AND hit Lugia before it can toss up that Reflect, and you won't find anything other than special attackers with a super-effective move (Thundurus).
It is very easy to pick apart the individual aspects of a pokemon and point out their flaws, but we MUST look at a pokemon as a whole. Any flying type has those moves, yes, but they lack the base 110 speed to make screens instantly effective, they lack the defenses to let Toxic do its work, and they fear the coverage moves of Rock/Ground types far too much to successfully phaze without being unable to do it again next time. None of that applies to Lugia.
Second, we are assuming, naturally, that Lugia is entirely on the defensive. Say you end up against CM / Recover / Aeroblast / Earth Power Lugia? The Toxic you were expecting becomes irrelevant as Lugia takes you out utilizing great neutral coverage and a filler move. It's movepool is actually quite impressive, consisting of Psychic, Flying, Ground, Ice, Electric, Water, Ghost, and Dragon moves.
Slowbro also lacks Taunt/hazards, but that doesn't stop it from doing what it needs to do. Walls shouldn't be expected to accomplish everything.
Pressure is useful for Toxic stalling, but that isn't the main concern with Lugia. The moves required to take it down tend to have low PP, meaning that you will quickly run out of the needed firepower and descend into a stall war. And THAT is where Lugia shines. Again, Lugia DOES have access to Earth Power. And assuming that Drought is still around in the future, Fire-type Weather Ball.
For sake of completeness, I'll highlight in red those pokemon that lose to offensive (CM/Recover/Aeroblast/Earth Power) Lugia, which can also run HP Fighting over Earth Power. I'll assume Leftovers and a spread of Max HP / Max Speed Timid, as well.
Given, Tyranitar is an accepted Lugia check even in Ubers. It will not, however, be able to do this without CB Crunch (Stone Edge will be stalled out/eventually miss) or Specs Dark Pulse lol.
I'll give you this one, since you specifically are assessing defensive Lugia. Offensive Lugia will simply use it as setup fodder and 2HKO at +6.
Lugia is, as a general rule of thumb, always EVd to outspeed Garchomp, the only exception being the old 307 speed Lugia from Gen 4 Ubers. Given the lesser power of OU, it wouldn't be difficult for Lugia to run enough speed to outpace Garchomp and throw up a Reflect, giving it multiple opportunities to Ice Beam. Offensive Lugia will outspeed and KO.
Standard Lugia runs Dragon Tail/WW, so it actually does carry a way to deal with this. Offensive Lugia wins.
You win here. Note however, that this IS one of the strongest special attacks OU can muster.
Lugia has the time to do this, too, though switching in would be foolish. Lugia will outrun Rotom-W, and will immediately begin to Roost to nullify SR and stall out even Modest Specs Thunderbolt. Roost has 16 PP, Thunderbolt has 12 due to pressure and then Lugia Toxics. Lugia will win 1 on 1. The offensive set will CM to buffer Thunderbolt while Pressure wears it down, Roost to prepare to sweep, then go ahead and do so.
Victory for Excadrill. CM Lugia boosts too slowly to avoid being hit by Rock Slide, and Earth Power doesn't hit balloon.
Defensive Lugia loses, yes. Offensive Lugia will win, shrugging off even +6 Psyshock.
I'll give this to Heatran as you are correct, and SubTran has the advantage of avoiding Dragon Tail. Loses to offensive Lugia.
True, but again, offensive Lugia is winning. Starting to notice a trend, here?
Yes, see Garchomp. Dragonite will flat-out lose, though, as Lugia needs even less speed investment to outrun it and doesn't care about anything less than rain Thunder.
Conkeldurr can, however, be phazed before it gets a chance to do anything. Lugia will Reflect, then phaze. So Conk only wins in a last-pokemon scenario. Offensive Lugia obviously crushes it.
Point for Toed. 1 on 1, offensive Lugia comes out on top.
Point for Gengar. Once again, Lugia surviving a STAB Super-effective LO attack with no investment in SpD. It loses 1 on 1, but not before tossing up one final Reflect or Thunder Wave.
These two will win against both forms of Lugia, though Lugia vs. Skarmory degenerates into a stall war (Skarmory still wins, though).
Jellicent also beats the CM set.
Fair enough.
All of these lose to offensive Lugia. ChestoRest and Offensive are phazed, and Defensive MS will always run Fiery Dance over Fire Blast given the nature of the set. It can also be phazed out.
Your assessment was a little off, IMO. Many of your "wins" were actually last pokemon standing scenarios or are more of a stalemate to be honest.
Toxic screws up any Calm Minder, so I'm not sure how that's special. Ferrothorn and Scizor, as I pointed out, will lose to Lugia. With Leftovers negating Sand, it will take at least 4 turns of Leech Seed to equal the amount of HP Lugia can regain with Roost, giving it time to CM thrice and sweep the rest of the team. Roost can be used more than once, you know, so Leech Seed isn't much of an issue. EP (which I suspect will be more common on OU CM Lugia) will defeat Jirachi and other assorted steels, while CM Reuniclus fails to 2HKO with Psyshock even at +6 and is especially at risk to Aeroblast's critical hit rate.
Out of the top 20, Lugia can set up on Ferrothorn, Scizor, Gliscor, Reuniclus, Heatran, Jirachi, Dragonite, Conkeldurr, Politoed, and Volcarona - 50%. Furthermore, Starmie, Latios, and Gengar are incapable of revenging a boosted Lugia, and Latios at -2 is setup fodder.
I think Earth Power is what you overlooked, because it helps Lugia check a good bit of its would-be counters (for the offensive set here), and defensive Lugia will STILL be walling the hell out of anything that lacks an insanely powerful STAB attack. And this is only taking into account the top 20. Out of the rest of OU, I'm only seeing Terrakion, Chandelure, Cloyster, and Espeon as pokemon that aren't stopped by Lugia given their current standard sets.
So there has been lots of Garchomp nominations as of late. I have been thinking recently, and I believe that we should honestly try out banning Sandstream + Sand Veil (Complex Ban) or have a blanket ban on the ability Sand Veil (Simple Ban).
Yes, I understand that Sand Veil did not break any of the other monsters, such as Sandslash and Gliscor, which is why I initially supported the ban on Garchomp rather than a ban on Sand Veil. However, once I started reading about the Moody ban in Ubers and Chou Toshio's rational in banning based on 2 reasons - for uncompetitive or overcentralising reasons, I began to see the issue in a different light.
Sand Veil is not just an Ability that "pushes Garchomp over the edge," as many people puts it, while other Pokemon possessing the same ability are harmless; it is uncompetitive by definition. Everyone in the nomination thread are complaining about the drastic 20% reduction in all of the move's accuracy. I have to say that this is a problem about the uncompetitive nature of the ability rather than the combination of Sand Veil + Garchomp itself. I am pretty sure if Hail ever becomes popular, people will complain about Snow Cloak Mamoswine and Glaceons. It is not an isolated issue, the evasion-boosting abilities are the culprit, not the Pokemon unfortunate to receive these abilities.
For such reasons, I will be nominating Sand Veil + Sandstorm or simply Sand Veil for nominations, due to the "Moody" factor - it adds intolerable amount of luck into our match.
Garchomp could use a second chance without the evasion nonsense. Arguably it was the exploitation of Sand Veil that has led to the overcentralization around Garchomp, and I believe without Sand Veil, we would not have to face this issue anymore with any other monsters as well.
And for those who say that complex bans are only temporary - I do not know where you heard that from, since Aldaron has never implied such an intent in his thread. The complex bans will remain as long as it achieves the satisfactory balance the community desires. Obviously, the fact that people are nominating Drizzle means that perhaps Drizzle was more overpowered than some of us expected, but such a conclusion could not have been made without Aldaron's Proposal.
By extension, I will be nominating Snow Warning + Snow Cloak or simply Snow Cloak for the same reasons; because the evasion has the potential to rob the would-be winner the victory.
Yes, I understand that Sand Veil did not break any of the other monsters, such as Sandslash and Gliscor, which is why I initially supported the ban on Garchomp rather than a ban on Sand Veil. However, once I started reading about the Moody ban in Ubers and Chou Toshio's rational in banning based on 2 reasons - for uncompetitive or overcentralising reasons, I began to see the issue in a different light.
Sand Veil is not just an Ability that "pushes Garchomp over the edge," as many people puts it, while other Pokemon possessing the same ability are harmless; it is uncompetitive by definition. Everyone in the nomination thread are complaining about the drastic 20% reduction in all of the move's accuracy. I have to say that this is a problem about the uncompetitive nature of the ability rather than the combination of Sand Veil + Garchomp itself. I am pretty sure if Hail ever becomes popular, people will complain about Snow Cloak Mamoswine and Glaceons. It is not an isolated issue, the evasion-boosting abilities are the culprit, not the Pokemon unfortunate to receive these abilities.
For such reasons, I will be nominating Sand Veil + Sandstorm or simply Sand Veil for nominations, due to the "Moody" factor - it adds intolerable amount of luck into our match.
Garchomp could use a second chance without the evasion nonsense. Arguably it was the exploitation of Sand Veil that has led to the overcentralization around Garchomp, and I believe without Sand Veil, we would not have to face this issue anymore with any other monsters as well.
And for those who say that complex bans are only temporary - I do not know where you heard that from, since Aldaron has never implied such an intent in his thread. The complex bans will remain as long as it achieves the satisfactory balance the community desires. Obviously, the fact that people are nominating Drizzle means that perhaps Drizzle was more overpowered than some of us expected, but such a conclusion could not have been made without Aldaron's Proposal.
By extension, I will be nominating Snow Warning + Snow Cloak or simply Snow Cloak for the same reasons; because the evasion has the potential to rob the would-be winner the victory.
The Great Hax Scare of 2011
Let me just say I don't think we need anymore complex bans as the current nerf is bad enough on its own but I see this one as completely unnecesary. Why bother with a complex ban when banning a single, solitary game mechanic that only factored in evasion is the clear precedent (Brightpowder). If you're that concerned with the hax, why not just ban the ability instead of allowing the ability and preventing the player from using it?
Let me just say I don't think we need anymore complex bans as the current nerf is bad enough on its own but I see this one as completely unnecesary. Why bother with a complex ban when banning a single, solitary game mechanic that only factored in evasion is the clear precedent (Brightpowder). If you're that concerned with the hax, why not just ban the ability instead of allowing the ability and preventing the player from using it?
rough skin isn't out yet
That technically only applies to Garchomp, admittedly the only reason we're having this discussion, and not all Sand Veil/Snow Cloak pokemon. Still, not for this at all.
Edit: And that would be a soft ban on Garchomp but alas that's all this is really about.
@Rosey Oak('s nomination): Aw come on, I specifically didn't respond to you because I wanted to let that argument die. No need to bring it back up.
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But I'm curious, why do people want Hail (and to a lesser extent, Sandstorm) gone? I fail to see how Hail can possibly be broken, even in a weather-less metagame. If all the other weathers go, it will become a common form of Stall (most likely). But Stall is Stall, it's been here forever and been fine. You can't say that Haill Offense would be broken either, because it gives no Speed boosts and no Power boosts to anything. At all. There's Blizzard, but there aren't too many viable Ice-types, and most of the viable ones have relatively low Sp Atk stats (see: Mamoswine, Weavile, Cloyster, Froslass, etc). This means that we'll either have un-STABed Blizzard's which wouldn't be over-powering, or we'll have STABed, meh-powered Blizzards. In either incarnation, Hail would seem to be fine to me.
As for Sandstorm, we have 3 OU abusers: Garchomp, Landorus, and Excadrill. We can rulw out Landorus because no one whines about him anymore (now that the glitch is fixed). As for Garchomp, I doubt he'll be here next round, anyway, given that he's in almost every single nomination. Even if he is here next round, there's so much hate being pointed directly at Garchomp, that I don't see how Sandstorm could end up as a scapegoat for Garchomp. Now, on to Excadrill. The main complaint about him, as far as I can see, is that he requires too much preparation. For one thing, I don't see how he's broken in the first place. I don't think he is broken. But anyway, with Drought and Drizzle (hopefully) gone, teams would have much more leeway in their buliding stage, leaving plenty of room that wasn't there before to handle this.
So I want to know, why do people want all weather banned, as opposed to Drought and Drizzle?
edit: I'm in agreement with Nkululeko, in his last post. Why bother with a complex ban?
If you think Garchomp is the problem, ban Garchomp. That would make the most sense, as he's the only user who is even close to broken. I'm still of the opinion (notice the word opinion, *looks at Thorhammer*) that "uncompetitive" is a bullcrap term designed t nerf Garchomp and keep it in OU.
Or if you hate Sand Veil, then ban Sand Veil and simply suck it up that you'd soft ban some Pokemon. The only purpose of a complex ban would be to keep everything in OU, which was bad enough the first time we did it.
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But I'm curious, why do people want Hail (and to a lesser extent, Sandstorm) gone? I fail to see how Hail can possibly be broken, even in a weather-less metagame. If all the other weathers go, it will become a common form of Stall (most likely). But Stall is Stall, it's been here forever and been fine. You can't say that Haill Offense would be broken either, because it gives no Speed boosts and no Power boosts to anything. At all. There's Blizzard, but there aren't too many viable Ice-types, and most of the viable ones have relatively low Sp Atk stats (see: Mamoswine, Weavile, Cloyster, Froslass, etc). This means that we'll either have un-STABed Blizzard's which wouldn't be over-powering, or we'll have STABed, meh-powered Blizzards. In either incarnation, Hail would seem to be fine to me.
As for Sandstorm, we have 3 OU abusers: Garchomp, Landorus, and Excadrill. We can rulw out Landorus because no one whines about him anymore (now that the glitch is fixed). As for Garchomp, I doubt he'll be here next round, anyway, given that he's in almost every single nomination. Even if he is here next round, there's so much hate being pointed directly at Garchomp, that I don't see how Sandstorm could end up as a scapegoat for Garchomp. Now, on to Excadrill. The main complaint about him, as far as I can see, is that he requires too much preparation. For one thing, I don't see how he's broken in the first place. I don't think he is broken. But anyway, with Drought and Drizzle (hopefully) gone, teams would have much more leeway in their buliding stage, leaving plenty of room that wasn't there before to handle this.
So I want to know, why do people want all weather banned, as opposed to Drought and Drizzle?
edit: I'm in agreement with Nkululeko, in his last post. Why bother with a complex ban?
If you think Garchomp is the problem, ban Garchomp. That would make the most sense, as he's the only user who is even close to broken. I'm still of the opinion (notice the word opinion, *looks at Thorhammer*) that "uncompetitive" is a bullcrap term designed t nerf Garchomp and keep it in OU.
Or if you hate Sand Veil, then ban Sand Veil and simply suck it up that you'd soft ban some Pokemon. The only purpose of a complex ban would be to keep everything in OU, which was bad enough the first time we did it.
I prefer the complex ban over a simple Ability ban (which I also suggested), because it goes to the root of the problem - Sand Veil / Snow Cloak is only activated when there is Sandstorm and Hail, respectively.
There are also a few perks to the complex ban:
1) Players could continue to play-test Garchomp next round.
2) Prevents unnecessary restrictions on Pokemon's movepool
- For instance, if we blanket ban Snow Cloak, Thick Fat Mamoswine would have no access to Ice Shard, Superpower, etc (correct me if I am wrong), which would be a gratuitous nerf on said Pokemon.
However, if we "need to go simple," then we may simply ban Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, while allowing the usage of Garchomp when its Dream World ability is released.
Sand wouldn't be so bad without Garchomp. Everytime I face a sand team with Garchomp on it, bs hax ensues and I wind up losing because I miss with that one move. Sand Veil is just bs but it's apart of garchomp. Garchomp is broken with Sand Veil. Ergo ban Garchomp.
I personally don't want all weather banned. Drizzle and Garchomp need to go though.
Ok, as people have said, this is not about brokenness. This is not about what is viable (because most SV 'mons are not). This is about "uncompetitivenss".
Which is why Sand Stream + Sand Veil and Snow Warning + Snow Cloak wouldn't get to the heart of the issue. But that wouldn't get to "the root of the problem". That would allow some noob to use the moves Hail/Sandstorm alongside the ability.
We all know that using those moves would be a terrible strategy. But so would using Sandslash, who is also "uncompetitive". So it's clear that how good it is has nothing to do with "uncompetitiveness".
I disagree with using a complex ban, but if you're going to use one, at least get rid of everything. Don't leave anything left of it.
This
edit @ below: Nkululeko, I am in full agreement with you.
Here's my beef with complex bans. They're not bans, they're nerfs. And their entire purpose is to weaken playstyles one doesn't like. In this case, we have Garchomp, which people are using to fish for miss hax get a free set up, and people no longer want to miss against it. The solution? Ban it, I rather full out ban Garchomp rather then try to get rid of the more annoying part of it.
Edit:And lol ban Garchomp's only ability and allow it's usage.
I agree with the first part about bans vs. nerfs, but I think the better solution is to just ban the enabler. Banning Sand Stream would be preferable to banning Garchomp in my opinion.
At the same time it'd ban things that aren't so broken under sand. (I.E Excadrill and Landlos)
What makes a Drizzle ban seperate from Sandstream ban is that with drizzle, there are just so many abusers of Rain. Each one as an aspect under Drizzle that breaks it. We literally had to nerf Drizzle for everyone to be on the fence about it being broken. If the Aldaron Proposal hadn't happened we would've either A: Banned alot of swift swimmers or B: Banned Drizzle with the latter being the more likely option.
With Sand there are just so few great abusers that are borderline broken. Garchomp and maybe Excadrill. Sand is the anti weather. it has ways of beating Drizzle and Drought without actually being more powerful than them. However, Garchomp is just broken with Sand Veil. A complex ban (I.E Garchomp / Sand Veil or Sand Veil / Sandstream) is completely out of the question because it's just ignoring the problem at hand and in my personal opinion, playing favorites. Garchomp is the one that's broken. Not Sand Veil or Sandstream, Garchomp.
Slim Man, when I mean uncompetitive, I mean luck-oriented; the control of the match is out of player's hands. I did not use uncompetitive to describe shitty strategies or Pokemon.
However, I do agree with you. The complex ban may most likely NOT deal with the root of the problem. As long as Sand Veil exists, Garchomp can abuse the sandstorm invoked by the opponent's Ttars. It does limit Garchomp's usage considerably though, since one cannot use Ttar in tandem with Garchomp, but the hax bs will most likely to arise. The complex ban may be insufficient.
Nkululeko, I agree to an extent to your rational on soft bans on abilities. However, if you read Chou Toshio's link about banning stuff for uncompetitive reasons I believe you would at least understand the logic of my suggestion. It is so blatantly apparent that the uncompetitive nature of Sand Veil and its exploitation are the main issues, not Garchomp. Arguably, Garchomp would not be on the headlights if it wasn't for the blatant abuse of Sand Veil with Substitue.
And to Slim Man and Nkululeko regarding nerfing Pokemon
This is quite different from the nerf of Blaziken without Speed Boost. Mainly because I am suggesting a blanket ban on the Ability itself, with no Pokemon-specific conditions (ie, I am not requesting a ban on Sand Veil Garchomp, but a ban on Sand Veil itself). Like I said, this Ability is comparable to Moody, vesting any Pokemon possessing it with an upper hand in luck. The fault is not on the Pokemon, but on the Ability.
And concerning Complex bans as NERFS:
I consider calling a STRATEGY as being nerfed is ridiculous. Heavy Offense is a strategy, and we have effectively "nerfed" it by banning the overpowered Sweepers in Round 1, such as Deoxys-A and Darkrai. Why did we nerf heavy offense? Because those Pokemon were overpowered. It was not our intent to nerf Heavy Offense, but naturally there are consequences to balancing out the metagame.
Why did we decide on Aldaron's Proposal? Because at that time, Swift Swim + Drizzle was the main overpowered element. Yes we nerfed Rain Offense, because we imposed restrictions on the overpowered element. What's wrong with that? We could not justify the ban on Drizzle, because the direct effects of invoking Perma-Rain (Water boost, Fire damage control, 100% accurate Thunder / Hurricanes) was not decisively supported as being overpowered. Aldaron's Proposal allowed to isolate the broken element of Rain Offense, providing us an opportunity to test Drizzle by itself. Nominations of Drizzle at Round 4 indicates that Rain Offense in general may be overpowering, but we could not have justified such a decision without going through Aldaron's Proposal.
Okay, so maybe Mamoswine is safe. However, wouldn't Rough Skin Garchomp not have access to Outrage (an Egg move)?
However, I do agree with you. The complex ban may most likely NOT deal with the root of the problem. As long as Sand Veil exists, Garchomp can abuse the sandstorm invoked by the opponent's Ttars. It does limit Garchomp's usage considerably though, since one cannot use Ttar in tandem with Garchomp, but the hax bs will most likely to arise. The complex ban may be insufficient.
Nkululeko, I agree to an extent to your rational on soft bans on abilities. However, if you read Chou Toshio's link about banning stuff for uncompetitive reasons I believe you would at least understand the logic of my suggestion. It is so blatantly apparent that the uncompetitive nature of Sand Veil and its exploitation are the main issues, not Garchomp. Arguably, Garchomp would not be on the headlights if it wasn't for the blatant abuse of Sand Veil with Substitue.
And to Slim Man and Nkululeko regarding nerfing Pokemon
This is quite different from the nerf of Blaziken without Speed Boost. Mainly because I am suggesting a blanket ban on the Ability itself, with no Pokemon-specific conditions (ie, I am not requesting a ban on Sand Veil Garchomp, but a ban on Sand Veil itself). Like I said, this Ability is comparable to Moody, vesting any Pokemon possessing it with an upper hand in luck. The fault is not on the Pokemon, but on the Ability.
And concerning Complex bans as NERFS:
I consider calling a STRATEGY as being nerfed is ridiculous. Heavy Offense is a strategy, and we have effectively "nerfed" it by banning the overpowered Sweepers in Round 1, such as Deoxys-A and Darkrai. Why did we nerf heavy offense? Because those Pokemon were overpowered. It was not our intent to nerf Heavy Offense, but naturally there are consequences to balancing out the metagame.
Why did we decide on Aldaron's Proposal? Because at that time, Swift Swim + Drizzle was the main overpowered element. Yes we nerfed Rain Offense, because we imposed restrictions on the overpowered element. What's wrong with that? We could not justify the ban on Drizzle, because the direct effects of invoking Perma-Rain (Water boost, Fire damage control, 100% accurate Thunder / Hurricanes) was not decisively supported as being overpowered. Aldaron's Proposal allowed to isolate the broken element of Rain Offense, providing us an opportunity to test Drizzle by itself. Nominations of Drizzle at Round 4 indicates that Rain Offense in general may be overpowering, but we could not have justified such a decision without going through Aldaron's Proposal.
Slim Man said:
Okay, so maybe Mamoswine is safe. However, wouldn't Rough Skin Garchomp not have access to Outrage (an Egg move)?
QFT. When it comes to Sand Abuse, it's quality over quantity (Excadrill, Garchomp, ~Landorus) while Rain can be abused by anything with a water move, the prevalent Rain-dependent abilities, or a typing weak to fire.
That isn't enough. Garchomp is one of the best ou pokemon even without sandstorm. Not only that but Sandstorm wouldn't miss Garchomp at all. Garchomp's Usage may decrease a little bit but Sandstream is the most used weather. Chances are people would exploit that.
It's pretty much been proven that Drizzle is still very strong even without SwSw. It's time we looked at Drizzle seriously. we can't keep ignoring it. Drizzle is an overpowered threat. It's the strongest weather against non-weather teams. (As I've stated Sand is the anti weather which is has the advantage against other weather teams) We need to test Drizzle and see if it's it broken. Nerfing it is just ignoring the problem.
Right. Kneecap six to ten decent-but-not-great pokemon because one pokemon breaks an ability. That makes perfect sense. I really hate hearing people whine about this ability because "it's uncompetitive".
Well, I guess we ought to ban Super Luck, then, because the hell if I want a crit to to randomly rob me of my victory! That blasted Absol is so terrible for the health of the Metagame!
What's this? Serene Grace? In MY Pokemanz? Blasphemy! Dunsparce should CLEARLY be forced to use Run Away as its ability! It's not competitive at all if my Machamp is defeated because Headbutt gains a 60% flinch rate under Serene Grace!
Tangled Feet, eh? Oh, I bet you'd LIKE it if we forgot you let things spam Thrash and then evade retribution! Oh, yes, we're on to your little game, UNCOMPETITOR!
Flame Body? My Dragon Dancer's sweep could be destroyed by a 30% chance! And you there, Mr. Staic! I see you skulking around, planning on popping in unannounced to leave my sweeper open to revenge killing! AHA! I see Mrs. Effect Spore and young master Poison Point have elected to join us this evening as well! KILL THEM WITH FIRE!
Did I MISS something where an ability that might strongly inconvenience an opponent was somehow much, much worse than a pokemon that can abuse said ability to completely wreck them if it activates?
Also, is there a particular reason people keep trying to unban MORE Ubers? For the love of god, people are saying Thunderus and Reunicles are too powerful for OU, is the response to try and bring down things to up the average power level enough they don't stand out? Can't say I'm too crazy about a TON of these suggestions to bring down Ubers to OU (read: all of them except Manaphy) seem to be giving a pitch right over the plate to Tyranitar. We GET IT, he's good: I do not think bringing down Ubers on the basis of whether or not he can handle them is a good idea, and I'd rather play in a metagame where T-Tar is a great pokemon, not a frigging essential one.
If you use the word "uncompetitive" then no one will take you seriously.
to all the above posters that say that a complex ban of sand veil and sand stream wouldn't solve anything i have to say that it wouldn't eradicate the problem but it would severely limit it...
can you tell me which is the most used,ragequiting set of garchomp???
sub sdchomp right!
and this happens 'cause people chose to abuse the hella out of sand veil...
but if we didn't allow these 2 abilities to be used together then everyone would be using other sets,'cause with noone to guarantee sand for chomp who is going to bother with subchomp???see?for me this is miles better that letting everyone rely on evasion raising abilities to win the game...
also @Blackdragonking:
all these luck involving things that you are mentioning have many and viable counters...you can prepare for haxrachi,you can prepare for absol you can prepare for all these things(i think that you know how so i won't bother explaining)!
but sand veil and snow cloak don't have any counters(especially sand veil)except from machamp,thunder users,aura sphere users(i am just saying these to make a full list just in case,'cause everyone knows that these solutions are nonexistent and inefficient) and other weathers...and weathers other than sand have only around 20% usage i think...
also how possible is to bring a weather inducer(other than sand inducer) into any sand veil abuser is a whole different story...
so i am asking you where are sand veil's counters???
can you tell me which is the most used,ragequiting set of garchomp???
sub sdchomp right!
and this happens 'cause people chose to abuse the hella out of sand veil...
but if we didn't allow these 2 abilities to be used together then everyone would be using other sets,'cause with noone to guarantee sand for chomp who is going to bother with subchomp???see?for me this is miles better that letting everyone rely on evasion raising abilities to win the game...
also @Blackdragonking:
all these luck involving things that you are mentioning have many and viable counters...you can prepare for haxrachi,you can prepare for absol you can prepare for all these things(i think that you know how so i won't bother explaining)!
but sand veil and snow cloak don't have any counters(especially sand veil)except from machamp,thunder users,aura sphere users(i am just saying these to make a full list just in case,'cause everyone knows that these solutions are nonexistent and inefficient) and other weathers...and weathers other than sand have only around 20% usage i think...
also how possible is to bring a weather inducer(other than sand inducer) into any sand veil abuser is a whole different story...
so i am asking you where are sand veil's counters???
I'm sorry if my response seemed particularly scathing, it wasn't meant to be directed at anyone in particular. I was just pointing out the word crops up a lot.
That said, I still think that excessive luck is a very subjective matter, and still believe the problem is Garchomp and not Sand Veil.
Like what I said above, where's the line drawn? Absol and Honchkrow both have insanely powerful Sucker Punches that can net OHKOs they normally wouldn't due to Super Luck activating to make it crit more often, but it's not a problem, even with all moves getting a free Razor Claw boost. Crits are huge, but an ability that lets one crit more often, especially with moves like Night Slash, is not considered broken OR uncompetitive.
Similarly, the contact status abilities actually have a higher chance of activating than Sand Veil or Snow Cloak, and even though they have slightly different conditions to activate in, it's still luck that could cripple a counter or sweeper. These abilities are not complained about, partially because most things that get them get something better these days, but the point still stands.
-20% accuracy to a move in a certain weather is annoying, I'll admit, but I don't think that this luck factor actually effects the game more than a little with anything besides Garchomp. Cacturne can only take one neutral to super-effective hit with its glass defenses anyhow, so it's not going to really mess things up much if it manages to evade the first Fire Blast you throw at it only to get mowed down by an Ice Beam. Sandslash and the like have similarly low threat levels; Sandslash isn't going to sweep anything if it's not getting a Sand Rush boost, so the Sand Veil set is mostly just buying a turn for support variants, most likely a rapid spin or SR for free. This is not a big deal compared to Garchomp's ability to pounce on a single 20% chance for a free turn and proceed to turn an entire team into sushi, and I feel the problem in this scenario is pretty clearly Garchomp and not Sand Veil. I see where people are coming from, but I don't think Evasion's such a big deal that if Garchomp can't have it, NOBODY CAN.
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