A treatise on newly posted teams.

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Surgo

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There have been a -lot- of teams being posted lately; it seems like it's becoming the fashionable thing to do around here. That's all well and good, but most of these teams all share the same problem and it's not a Gyarados weakness (though most have that too).

What is this problem? It's the lack of a unifying, central strategy behind the team. Six "standard" pokemon that are capable on their own, nothing else. These teams are being built solely with new and old standards in mind, and inserting their counters. I think that the mindset behind these teams is something like "Okay, Pokemon x1, x2, ..., are threats, so here are pokemon that can counter them...and then y1 and y2 for offense", or something close to that. This worked reasonably well in Advance. This will not work in DP.

I posted something in an earlier thread that a couple people have quoted; I'm going to repost it here and then explain in more depth what I meant.
It seems like DP will be, more than anything else, about having a certain strategy, planning, and executing that strategy. There is simply too much to counter in too few pokemon and moves; at this point one can never hope to be able to counter everything.
There are just too many threats to have counters for anymore. This is a new situation, as you could conceivably counter most tough things you'd run up against in Advance teams. Go to Mekkah's Advance teambuilding guide on the main site, he gives a list of things that all teams should counter. Things are different now, though. DP will change the status quo. There are so many new pokemon, and so many old pokemon, and pokemon both new and old that are capable of kicking your ass in many different ways. Salamence comes to mind, as does Infernape. Try countering physical Salamence and then immediately lose a pokemon to CG Salamence. In Advance this was called the element of surprise and would win you battles; in DP it's not very hard to be surprising.

So what is my point in all this? I'm saying that DP teams need to have a central, unifying strategy. Take this strategy and enough pokemon strong enough to stand on their own in case something goes wrong, and work to set it up. Plan ahead. Think about how you can mess up your opponent's team and follow the path you've set with every move. This isn't to say you should eschew defense. On the contrary, use the most general walls and general counters that you can think of to stop threats on various ends of the spectrum, preferably ones with as few physical weaknesses as possible. Bulky grounds, bulky waters, Blissey, Crescelia. But make sure that they can do something, and that they can work with your strategy in some way.

Why is it necessary to have this strategy? It is necessary because you can't deal with every threat anymore. There are just too many out there now. Too many pokemon to counter with your 6 pokemon and 24 moves. You will not successfully do it. You'll counter a lot of stuff, and then someone will come at you with something your team isn't prepared for and rip you apart; with alarming frequency. So, instead of trying to deal with all these threats, make a unique threat of your own. Instead of making a threat out of a single pokemon, make it out of two, or three, or four, or six. You will be much more dangerous, much more difficult (if not impossible) to counter. This is the kind of thinking that will win you battles.

Work strategy into your team, and I guarantee you that you will beat any team made up of counters and some generic offense. Learn how to learn your opponents' strategy and plan ways to mess it up, and you'll beat them too.
 
The team I posted a while ago doesn't really have one thing in mind, but still it is a lot cooler than all these Blissey/Gablias/Gyarados armies I see. Because every single Pokemon is a threat to about everything in the game until you know their movesets. I wish more people did more stuff like that, but unfortunately I cannot enforce it. I'd contemplate about a rule for RMTs of not doing really standard ones but until Competitor is up and running for a while we cannot really judge that.

So please just be creative when RMTing. Gablias, Manaphy and Blissey are great Pokemon - let's use some others.
 
Actually, I had forgotten about yours when thinking about teams I had seen recently. I did like it.

For the curious, it's [thread=17465]here[/thread]. An example of a much different strategy than the ones above.

I'm not recommending a rule for RMTs or something, I just ask that people read this before posting.
 
Half the teams on netbattle don't really have a central strategy and are just standards thrown together i think you should just let people use what they like for now. I know you said this won't work in DP like it did in Advance but you cannot possibly know that and if it turns out true well then people will learn from there early team mistakes and update their teams, its one of the things that gonna keep the metagame going round.
 
Half the teams on netbattle don't really have a central strategy and are just standards thrown together i think you should just let people use what they like for now. I know you said this won't work in DP like it did in Advance but you cannot possibly know that and if it turns out true well then people will learn from there early team mistakes and update their teams, its one of the things that gonna keep the metagame going round.
Well obviously if there are now 500 pokemon, then you can't have individual counters for each of them. It's like stalling in Ubers; workable, but you're better off just setting up yourself and your team.
 
Well, lets not exaggerate the 500 Pokemon.

1) It's 493 max.

2) Let's not include NFE pokemon, except maybe pokemon like Scyther.

3) Let's remember to Seperate different Pokemon in different Tiers.

4) Let's not include Pokemon which are good, but still overshadowed by other Pokemon.

5) Let's not all try and come up with a Strategic Team Strategy, especially if each Tier has a Different Strategy within it.

6) " " for different Battling Styles.

IE: 2v2 Will less likely include moves like Spikes, Stone Edge, and Roar, & will more likely include moves like: Rock Slide, and Heat Wave, Follow Me, Helping Hand, Protect.

IE: Stadium- Less strategy in general (for shorter battles), and will probably not include normal OU standards like Skarm.

Yes, there are still alot of Pokemon even within each Tier, but at least in general, there are at least 1 or 2 counters for the main ones.
(And if there are not any yet, people will discover them).

People can ultimately counter the most used pokemon, and even Counter their Counters:
IE:
Skarmary VS Jibacoil
Jibacoil VS Dugtrio
Dugtrio VS Porygon2
Porygon2 VS Porygon2
Porygon2 VS AScarf Heracross
Ascarf Heracross VS Gyarados
Gyarados VS Zapdos
Zapdos Vs Celebi
(The opponent may also have Porygon2, which will Trace the Traced Arena Trap), etc.
 
Pros
-fun for the setup challenge and the potential win
-constantly evolving strategies over time
-a new twist to team building
-watching battles might be a little more fun
-a race to get to the sweep (and to pick holes in the opposing strat)
-keeps the game from blandness (try this in other tiers too?)

Cons
-losing a key to the strategy might lose the battle (also a pro in the challenge)
-standard strategies might ruin the creativity, much like the advance metagame
 
I dunno about the "too many things to counter" aspect.

What I think provides the most instability is going to be Adherance Scarf. Speed is everything in Competitive battling. Just being able to outspeed what would be your counters, even for only one extra attack is a huge deal. Granted, it can't be used by everything, but it adds a whole new diminsion of counters and nullifies a lot of them. Eg: Normally Aero might have been able to switch in on Blaziken and scare it out with the threat of EQ. Now it might eat a Brick Break or Sky Uppercut, taking 52-odd percent, and then get blasted by another one because Blaziken had AS attached, which Aero obviously isn't going to know until it is too late, since it had nothing to guage Blaziken's speed previously.

Otherwise we've simply got new variations of old concepts. The only real difference is the pure offensive power of new or changed moves on old pokemon. Most of the new scary scrap can be answered by the same old moves. Ice Beam beats up Gablias about the same as Salamence. TTar still gets pwned by fighting moves, although Kaburadon is an interesting replacement to get Sandstream without the 4x weaks. Its STAB EQ is more powerful that TTar's STAB Crunch. Anyway, the point is we have same stuff different day. It remains to be seen if AG Sweepers make as big an impact as CB'ers, but having stuff like Bliss around kind of stops that cold. Bloss is still fatty mcfatty fat, only an SD lower from an AG Focus Orb that hits can 2HKO that monstrosity.
 
Thank you, Surgo, for advocating creative team design. It seems that, all too often, whenever I post any creative idea, most people on these forums leap upon it like a flock of vultures. I'm not naive enough to honestly expect that people will actually listen to this thread in a few weeks (unless it gets stickied), but I can hope.

If any moderators read this, please consider sticky-ing this thread, or at least an anouncement with the substance of this thread in it.

On the other hand, there is that argument that by restricting what kind of teams people can make, you are restricting creativity yourself...
Not that I agree with myself.

Edit: if this post doesn't make sense, it's because It's 3 AM and I'm as tired as Michael Jackson after an all-male sleep-over. I'm going to bed now. Good night.
 
To be honest, the reason why I haven't yet posted a team is that I don't know where to begin to counter everything with just 6 Pokemon and 4 moves each, as you said, Surgo. So thinking about building a team in the way you mentioned is good advice for me.

Another, minor, reason is that I've always been an anti-metagamer, instead of a metagamer, i.e. I tend to use Pokemon to counter the metagame. I was like that even in my TCG days. So I need to wait until the metagame unfolds to start thinking about a team. This approach might not work for me in D/P, though, as you said.
 
I have been constructing my teams like this in ADV and having success so I cannot wait for D/P personally. Excellent advice.
 
Good job Surgo, I can't agree more with you on that one. Special sweepers have received a HUGE boost in the form of AG and Scheme, making even Blissey sometimes think twice about switching. And just to have you know, a Max Hp, No Sp. D Bliss can be OHKOed by a Modest Max Special Attack PorygonZ if it scheme's on the switch in. Bliss users might think they can counter that easy by removing HP/Def EV's only to have Blissey's frail physical defence exposed. This example backs up what Surgo said, that it is too hard to counter everything in the new metagame.

And as for strategic teams, i think my Electivire team with two waters (Gyara and Manaphy) to draw out electric attacks wasnt too bad.
 
Well, my team was built like that.
Yeah, there's just too many things to counter. It's not just there's 27 diff pokemon to counter, each poke has it's own sets that could easily thrash you up. Great, you have skarm against CB mence. What if it's an AG mence with meteoric storm?

I could name a lot others. But well, to keep it short, you just need a strategy that removes one of your opponents pokemon, and then destroy them.
 
Eh, does beating your opponent into the ground count? That's my main strategy. You chose a sweeper or two you want to use and build around there. Really, you can take 4 standard sweepers that all cover different aspects of the metagame and win. Your last two pokes are general walls that patch up holes. See my new RMT. Object is to remove the Special wall so Raikou/Azelf can sweep. Azelf carries Explosion for that purpose. I have ASManmuu to deal with random junk and a SubRevving Lucario incase I get rid of their Fighting Resist. Lastly, I chose Skarmory for its resists and ability to pawn all Crosses besides CB and STalk Milo for a nice, general wall. Stalk Milo can take most non-SE unboosted Special hits and can take almost any physical attack while asleep.

That team has no theme beyond sweep. Yet it's incredibly hard to counter. Sure, it requires a lot of prediction, but with CB/AS/AG everything running around it doesn't matter. You could probably take AGMence and Jirachi and then load a team full of CBers/ASers. You might want a Vappy for a second Wish, but three CBers is very hard to fight. Slaking, Heracross, and Gablais rip through everything but Skarmory, who hates AGMence no matter what it uses. You could even throw in Adaptive ASPorygonZ for lots of fun. Once again, no theme but pounding into the ground.

Of course, trying to this defensively is stupid. You would need a Levitating Ghost/Steel with Giradina's stats to have a chance at walling everything in DP. The fact is stats or resistances won't cut it anymore. To make a truly defensive team, you would need five or six pokes with good stats and resistances to attacks from the other spectrum. You also would not get away with Steelix's 200Def/50SDef. Things like Mence would make you run in circles. This is one reason why I see Registeel becoming a prime defensive pokemon this generation. Outstanding defensive stats coupled with the best single-type for defense. It can carry Ice Punch to deal with the obvious Gablais switch in. It gets many tech moves and can effectively Stalk for recovery.

okay I'll stop talking. I have confused even myself about the point of my post.
 
Registeel simply cannot catch up with such offensive monsters in DP thanks to his absymal 75 attacking stats and lack of good STAB. Nearly everything is a better option than him. Just use like 4-5-6 offensive Pokemon, chances are they're weak to at least one of them.
 
Superoffensive teams are part of the reason Choice Scarf could get some use, at least the way I see it. At the most extrememe point, six sweepers against six sweepers, the team that's the fastest is generally going to be the team that wins, and CS lets you get a drop on the opponent. Obviously this is something to consider when building a "rawr attack attack" team; can you handle a CSCross/CSCham/CSRampard?
 
Superoffensive teams are part of the reason Choice Scarf could get some use, at least the way I see it. At the most extrememe point, six sweepers against six sweepers, the team that's the fastest is generally going to be the team that wins, and CS lets you get a drop on the opponent. Obviously this is something to consider when building a "rawr attack attack" team; can you handle a CSCross/CSCham/CSRampard?

imo, trick room rampard would go much nicer than an AScarf rampard would.
yeah, that would be an extreme, and rare situation if a six man sweeper team met up with another 6 man sweeper team. if that would happen, like you said speed would matter. i predict for the first part of the metagame that fast AScarfers will rule it, as for the middle/later metagame even more strategy will unfold.
 
I can't make myself post a team here due to this insane paranoia of letting people see what goes through my mind when I fight. But I do know that, from what RMTs I've briefly looked through, the standard metagame already seems to be getting kinda boring (Except Gyarados, Agnome, and special Salamence seem to have manage to surpass Overhypblias in what teams must struggle to overcome)
 
I can't make myself post a team here due to this insane paranoia of letting people see what goes through my mind when I fight. But I do know that, from what RMTs I've briefly looked through, the standard metagame already seems to be getting kinda boring (Except Gyarados, Agnome, and special Salamence seem to have manage to surpass Overhypblias in what teams must struggle to overcome)

...you're bored already and competitor hasn't even been finished yet? Wow. I think you need a vacation from Pokemans, my friend.
 
There's really no point in thinking about the imaginary metagame right now, just take your favorite three or four sweepers, add in some walls and you have a team.

Just make sure its not something stupid like:
Snorlax
Return
Double Edge
Body Slam
Frustration

ie make sure that you have good attack type coverage .
 
There's really no point in thinking about the imaginary metagame right now, just take your favorite three or four sweepers, add in some walls and you have a team.

You are 6-0ed by Gyarados and/or Azelf, try again.

(See how fun your brand of pokémon is?)
 
...you're bored already and competitor hasn't even been finished yet? Wow. I think you need a vacation from Pokemans, my friend.
I'm bored because the teams are branching in directions away from what I'd consider to be fun. I prefer playing against Pokemon I'm not used to see, not just variations of the same 20.
 
Competitive Pokemon will be like that in the end anyway. If anything now (or when Competitor is out) is the time to battle as most people will still be trying different things until everything is set in stone.
 
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