np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions

[DetroitLolcat]

Yeah, RestTalk Snorlax is one of the best oddball Pokemon to use in this metagame. It looks terrible on paper at least in my opinion, but its combination of spreading status, hitting, well, averagely, and phazing makes it one of the best defensive threats in the metagame. Throw in countering Dicktini and manhandling Hail sans Froslass doesn't hurt either.

In that vein, I wonder if these threats together could form a full stall team? Something like Hippowdon+Gligar+Snorlax+Chansey+Dusclops+Roserade? Or maybe get Stoutland in there for some Speed? Definitely worth testing.

 

[Axa]

You might want a Spinner (or Xatu), but I don't think it's a huge priority for a team like that. You might want Ice Beam/Punch on Chansey/Dusclops for the odd Altaria or Torterra.

 

[badabing]

@ lolcat: Chansey + sand is a no go, especially without a spinner. And wtf evo dusclops gets worn down too and is working with pain split (I honestly haven't seen one on a legit stall team for this entire stage/ever). Right now I like Spiritomb to spinblock for stall because he handles donphan and blastoise reasonably well and he is also one of the best counters to LO 3 attacks + Encore Zam which tends to fuck up stall. Takes a little more effort to play around Foresight though.

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

if you're worried about foresight just run 2 ghosts

 

[Avira]

In that vein, I wonder if these threats together could form a full stall team? Something like Hippowdon+Gligar+Snorlax+Chansey+Dusclops+Roserade?

I really don't think this will work, unless you enjoy being 6-0ed by Nasty Plot Togekiss.

 

[Forsety]

Going to sound like a broken record here, but the sooner Froslass and Chandelure gtfo out of UU the better but I just want to make sure nobody is forgetting about them. Alakazam is almost a given to be getting the boot but I do hope that hasn't overshadowed the other two.

Hail is not present anymore? Believe what you will but the few Hail teams I've seen still stomp all over any other kind of team all because of Froslass's spin blocking, hazard laying, haxing bullshit and if you start turtling up they'll simply start ripping through with Blizzards or Taunting you. The thing is Froslass is almost never the only hazard layer they pack, Nidoqueen and Roserade are usually the main choice, Froslass simply deals the finishing blow.

Chandelure still has absolutely no place in UU, to hell with the thing being fragile. Most of the dangerous one I've seen showing up have been defensive, don't kid yourself, it may have 60 base HP but it has straight 90 defenses that is equal to Swampert and can still pull off Pain Split. But the second you let your guard down it nukes you with enough power to make even Arceus look tame.

 

[Jubilee]

@ lolcat: Chansey + sand is a no go, especially without a spinner. And wtf evo dusclops gets worn down too and is working with pain split (I honestly haven't seen one on a legit stall team for this entire stage/ever). Right now I like Spiritomb to spinblock for stall because he handles donphan and blastoise reasonably well and he is also one of the best counters to LO 3 attacks + Encore Zam which tends to fuck up stall. Takes a little more effort to play around Foresight though.

Spiritomb is definitely my favorite spinblocker as well. He's the best check to any of Zam's sets and can OHKO with Pursuit. He also can handle Mismagius and Azelf who are problems for stall teams really well. I'd be cautious to switch him in on a Donphan though because iirc standard Donphan can 2HKO specially defensive Spiritomb. And imo Blastoise should always run Foresight and that leaves Spiritomb with little to do back to Blastoise besides status.

 

[tocador]

Golurk is a pretty good spinblocker, and coupled with sandstorm it can be a pain to deal with.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Going to sound like a broken record here, but the sooner Froslass and Chandelure gtfo out of UU the better but I just want to make sure nobody is forgetting about them. Alakazam is almost a given to be getting the boot but I do hope that hasn't overshadowed the other two.

Chandelure still has absolutely no place in UU, to hell with the thing being fragile. Most of the dangerous one I've seen showing up have been defensive, don't kid yourself, it may have 60 base HP but it has straight 90 defenses that is equal to Swampert and can still pull off Pain Split. But the second you let your guard down it nukes you with enough power to make even Arceus look tame.

Froslass? It's only bad with Evasion boosts from hail, but I think that should be banned under evasion clause and not through suspect tests. It has terrible SpAtk and it's 2hkod by basically everything. Stealth Rock weakness on a spin blocker is pretty bad too. Chandelure is just as scared of your mons as you are of it

Chandelure isn't broken by any stretch either. Another SR weak mon, no defenses, relatively slow, Pursuit weak, and there are plenty of great Fire resists in UU. People see that 140 SpAtk and flip out, there's no reason to worry. There are plenty of ways around these mons and your posts scream "I'm not even trying to counter this". The fact that you seriously suggested that Chandelure's defenses are on par with Swampert's made me cringe.

Not that these two aren't good mons in the tier, I just can't believe you are suggesting that they should be banned when there are so many better things to use.

 

[Xephyr]

Going to sound like a broken record here, but the sooner Froslass and Chandelure gtfo out of UU the better but I just want to make sure nobody is forgetting about them. Alakazam is almost a given to be getting the boot but I do hope that hasn't overshadowed the other two.

Hail is not present anymore? Believe what you will but the few Hail teams I've seen still stomp all over any other kind of team all because of Froslass's spin blocking, hazard laying, haxing bullshit and if you start turtling up they'll simply start ripping through with Blizzards or Taunting you. The thing is Froslass is almost never the only hazard layer they pack, Nidoqueen and Roserade are usually the main choice, Froslass simply deals the finishing blow.

Chandelure still has absolutely no place in UU, to hell with the thing being fragile. Most of the dangerous one I've seen showing up have been defensive, don't kid yourself, it may have 60 base HP but it has straight 90 defenses that is equal to Swampert and can still pull off Pain Split. But the second you let your guard down it nukes you with enough power to make even Arceus look tame.

God, another stereotypical, ban-happy Smogoner that wants to get rid of everything that's annoying. The only ban that's been made in all of Gen 5 so far that is justified is Kyurem from UU. Nothing else made sense (besides the obvious initial ones like Darkrai and shit).

Froslass? What? You might miss occasionally, but so what? I mean good God, if your team is totally incapable of handling two layers of spikes because you missed a Froslass in hail, then you suck anyway.

Chandelure has too many solid counters to be considered broken. Snorlax is like as good of a counter to it that could ever exist, and it happens to be UU. Convenient.

 

[Camisado]

To those claiming that Chandelure is a sweeper with no bulk, you realize his defensive stats are slightly better than Starmies', right?

 

[Xephyr]

To those claiming that Chandelure is a sweeper with no bulk, you realize his defensive stats are slightly better than Starmies', right?

Wait, since when is Starmie considered some kind of defensive juggernaut? It's frail as balls and only really gets by with it's great resistances.

Were you trying to prove that Chandelure is extremely frail? Because you succeeded.

 

[Upstart]

The only ban that's been made in all of Gen 5 so far that is justified is Kyurem from UU. Nothing else made sense (besides the obvious initial ones like Darkrai and shit).

How can you honestly tell me that drought, wobbuffet and staraptor were not broken. I agree with you attempting to argue against being ban happy, but the basis of your logic is sincerely lacking. In reality the voters have proved to not be ban happy often opting on the side of caution. Of the multitude of pokemon available only drought, wobbuffet, staraptor, kyurem, and espeon were banned. Five pokemon is by no means ban happy. Not to mention that all of the banned pokemon were beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Xephyr]

How can you honestly tell me that drought, wobbuffet and staraptor were not broken. I agree with you attempting to argue against being ban happy, but the basis of your logic is sincerely lacking. In reality the voters have proved to not be ban happy often opting on the side of caution. Of the multitude of pokemon available only drought, wobbuffet, staraptor, kyurem, and espeon were banned. Five pokemon is by no means ban happy. Not to mention that all of the banned pokemon were beyond a reasonable doubt.

Drought was indeed very broken, but that's different than banning one Pokemon. Drought made numerous things extremely powerful. However, when it comes to handling one thing like Chandelure, just suck it up and carry a check. It's not that ridiculous. Drought was a special case where there wasn't a single check to any of it. The only victini counter was Slowbro, the only Tangrowth counter was...really nothing, etc.

 

[Jubilee]

I can't believe anyone is calling Chandelure frail... Sure, he may not be bulky, but in no way is he frail. 90 base defences is pretty good if you ask me... Only thing that can be held against him is his low HP stat and that he is Stealth Rock weak.

Also, none of the bulky Waters can OHKO min HP 0 SpD Chandelure while he can 2HKO all of them.
Milotic Scald: 72% - 85.8%
Slowbro / Slowking Scald: 72% - 85.8%
Suicune Scald: 66.7% - 78.9%
Blastoise Scald: 64.4% - 75.9%

So those are 2HKOs unless extremely close with Stealth Rock (and honestly SR isn't always up, so please do not bring up that) and I'm not arguing that he's exceptionally bulky or something just that he isn't as defensively weak as you guys are trying to say he is...

Also Xephyr, how in the world was Staraptor, Wobbuffet, and Espeon not broken? <.<

 

[LMK]

God, another stereotypical, ban-happy Smogoner that wants to get rid of everything that's annoying. The only ban that's been made in all of Gen 5 so far that is justified is Kyurem from UU. Nothing else made sense (besides the obvious initial ones like Darkrai and shit).

Froslass? What? You might miss occasionally, but so what? I mean good God, if your team is totally incapable of handling two layers of spikes because you missed a Froslass in hail, then you suck anyway.

Chandelure has too many solid counters to be considered broken. Snorlax is like as good of a counter to it that could ever exist, and it happens to be UU. Convenient.

You greatly oversimply the benefit frosslass gains from the evasion boost in hail conditions. Before the new UU drops the only pokemon being discussed was frosslass for a reason. The point has been debated ad naseum and I'm not in the mood to continue it but there is more at play than "missing occasionally" and "two layers of spikes".

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Chandelure has too many solid counters to be considered broken. Snorlax is like as good of a counter to it that could ever exist, and it happens to be UU. Convenient.

Snorlax also learns Pursuit!

To those claiming that Chandelure is a sweeper with no bulk, you realize his defensive stats are slightly better than Starmies', right?

Starmie hasn't been able to pull off a defensive set for two generations. It's only used because of its Speed and great STABs. If you really want to argue about defenses....Starmie also learns Recover, Thunder Wave, Rapid Spin and has Natural Cure as an ability.

Chandelure isn't even close to that fast, has some pretty bad overlap in its STABs and has a very small and very predictable movepool. Fire and Ghost are nice STABS but very easy to wall. No Natural Cure, no team support options, no recovery, and it's weak to SR instead of getting rid of it. Chandelure is used sparingly over the course of a match, it's only able to get in as a revenge killer or when you are really brave and predict a Fighting/Normal/Fire move.

Chandelure is not used for it's defenses, ever. Because it can't be. Making an argument like that which is so far drawn from reality really makes it look like you're grasping at straws. You should be focusing on it's offensive skills instead.

Also, none of the bulky Waters can OHKO min HP 0 SpD Chandelure while he can 2HKO all of them.
Milotic Scald: 72% - 85.8%
Slowbro / Slowking Scald: 72% - 85.8%
Suicune Scald: 66.7% - 78.9%
Blastoise Scald: 64.4% - 75.9%

So...what if they use Surf instead of Scald, and what if they have any Special Attack investment? I don't see how either of those options is asking too much. If you're at a point where you have to risk taking a Scald to the face, you've probably lost anyways.

 

[Machi]

Chandelure has too many solid counters to be considered broken. Snorlax is like as good of a counter to it that could ever exist, and it happens to be UU. Convenient.

Surprisingly Snorlax can be played around, though I usually only see these variants at hail teams (mind you higher up the ladder ones though), with defensive Chandelure's who just go and WoW the Snorlax.

From there they proceed to taunt or what not (usually pain split if its aiming to stall out for damage and recover). It acts not only as a defense against fire but can also be a pretty damn good status spreader, and EVd defensively CB pursuit isn't going to be hurting it much especially when you get that WoW in. Eitherway, Chandelure's being played with much more versatility than just purely offense, and can do a pretty damn good job at it too.

 

[Xephyr]

Also Xephyr, how in the world was Staraptor, Wobbuffet, and Espeon not broken? <.<

All of those had fairly simple counters. Rhyperior, playing smartly, and Espeon wasn't even that bad I mean come on. I mean, you're a suspect voter so you obviously know what you're talking about, but maybe I'm just more tolerant of stuff and I don't mind succumbing to using stuff specifically for countering strong Pokes.

Anyway, I'm actually surprised that Chandelure survives all of those, but that doesn't mean much. Chandy doesn't have ANY business taking any of those moves anyway unless you're attempting a VERY ambitious sweep.

 

[Banedon]

Froslass? What? You might miss occasionally, but so what? I mean good God, if your team is totally incapable of handling two layers of spikes because you missed a Froslass in hail, then you suck anyway.

Chandelure has too many solid counters to be considered broken. Snorlax is like as good of a counter to it that could ever exist, and it happens to be UU. Convenient.

No offense, but your post is pretty silly.

Froslass in hail is not going to get up two layers of Spikes and then die. It is going to paralyze your team, put up Spikes and spam Substitute until you miss, when it will attack with Blizzard. You make it sound like it's no better than a Scarf Deoxys-D using Spikes when it is way better than that.

As for Chandelure, where are your "too many solid counters"? You've only listed one. Can you name another? Chandelure has a lot of checks in the tier, but only one true counter. It's hampered by its low speed and weakness to Stealth Rock, but you didn't mention that. I'm not convinced Chandelure is broken, but your arguments aren't helping.

@jrrrrrrr - Chandelure CAN be used for its defenses. It has two important immunities, to Fire and Fighting, both of which are dangerous right now (Darmanitan, Machamp, other Chandelure, etc). Also you could run Surf on your bulky waters, but Scald is so much better I'd be surprised anyone would run Surf instead.

 

[Jubilee]

Trace Porygon 2 and Snorlax are the only 'solid counters' to Chandelure, which definitely isn't 'too many solid counters'. Chansey can take hits from the choiced sets of course but any set with Substitute it can't touch.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

As for Chandelure, where are your "too many solid counters"? You've only listed one. Can you name another? Chandelure has a lot of checks in the tier, but only one true counter. It's hampered by its low speed and weakness to Stealth Rock, but you didn't mention that. I'm not convinced Chandelure is broken, but your arguments aren't helping.

Snorlax, Chansey, Arcanine, Flygon, Milotic, Suicune, other Chandelure, Houndoom, Toxic Spikes, Porygon2

That's not even getting into the list of revenge killers

The choice sets are strong but counterable, the CM/Sub sets are not fast enough to sweep because "stall" doesn't exist as a playstyle in UU this gen.

 

[Banedon]

Trace Porygon2 is no counter. If Chandelure has Flame Body in a SubCM set, your opponent gets a Sub up for free and possibly a free Calm Mind as well while you scramble for the hills. Chansey cannot touch any set with Substitute, Arcanine is weak to SR + takes a lot from Shadow Ball, Flygon does not resist Shadow Ball and can't U-turn against a Sub to break it, Milotic is vulnerable to Energy Ball and so is Suicune, Houndoom is vulnerable to a predicted Hidden Power on the switch (team preview helps), and finally Toxic Spikes isn't a Pokemon.

Like I said, Chandelure has only one counter. It's arguable that even Snorlax is no counter because Snorlax loses to defensive Chandelure, but at least Snorlax can discover Chandelure's movepool without dying and hopefully Resting off WoW later.

 

[breh]

regirock is a 100% counter to chandelure in sandstorm, barring crits with energy ball (no SpD drops even lol) and horrible misshax.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Trace Porygon2 is no counter. If Chandelure has Flame Body in a SubCM set, your opponent gets a Sub up for free and possibly a free Calm Mind as well while you scramble for the hills. Chansey cannot touch any set with Substitute, Arcanine is weak to SR + takes a lot from Shadow Ball, Flygon does not resist Shadow Ball and can't U-turn against a Sub to break it, Milotic is vulnerable to Energy Ball and so is Suicune, Houndoom is vulnerable to a predicted Hidden Power on the switch (team preview helps), and finally Toxic Spikes isn't a Pokemon.

Like I said, Chandelure has only one counter. It's arguable that even Snorlax is no counter because Snorlax loses to defensive Chandelure, but at least Snorlax can discover Chandelure's movepool without dying and hopefully Resting off WoW later.

So your magic uncounterable Chandelure set is Sub/CM/Fire Blast/Shadow Ball/Energy Ball/Hidden Power Fighting/Trick/Pain Split, @Leftovers/Balloon/Lum Berry/Salac Berry/Choice Scarf and Choice Specs, with Flame Body and Flash Fire abilities?

Unless you can show us one Chandelure set that breaks the metagame, you are effectively arguing that ANY competitive Chandelure set can break the metagame, which obviously isn't true. They all have their counters, and they are all reasonable accommodations to make in the tier. You're moving the goalposts.