@Raikaria: Wonder Skin, really? You support that ability? You realize that it's completely luck-based and potentially adds an element of hax into every single sweep? Also, Analytic is useless for basically any sweeper, and Shield Dust is very dicey because everything with Scald is probably carrying another status move (Politoed, Jellicent, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, Quagsire...).
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CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 5 - Ability Discussion
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
- Start date
- Status
I feel like our abilities should be directly tailored towards certain specific purposes.
For example, we know we want this thing to be able to switch into and threaten bulky waters. We also know that the burn rate from Scald will present a huge threat to physical CAP2. Therefore, I am suggesting Water Absorb. I like this better than Storm Drain because it lets this CAP benefit from the ability without having to go special. Additionally, Water Absorb is a very understated ability, offering a benefit that is very specific in scope. This makes balancing it a bit easier.
Another option, from a more offensive perspective, is Quick Feet. This benefits from paralysis and poison, allowing an all-out attacker CAP to turn into a huge threat. An all-out attacker set with Toxic Orb also becomes possible, being balanced by its vulnerability to priority, vulnerability to all forms of passive damage (under sand and with hazards a toxic orb sweeper set won't last long) and inability to outspeed most scarfers.
And finally, a rather interesting option - Air Lock. This allows CAP2 to serve as a fantastic check against weather-oriented teams, since it will nullify the effects of weather while it is out. CAP2 becomes much reliable at taking rain-boosted water hits, and avoids taking passive damage from sand.
I feel like abilities like Technician and Sheer Force have far too broad of a scope. I think we need to tailor abilities that allow this CAP to perform specific roles very well. My suggestions do that well, I would say.
For example, we know we want this thing to be able to switch into and threaten bulky waters. We also know that the burn rate from Scald will present a huge threat to physical CAP2. Therefore, I am suggesting Water Absorb. I like this better than Storm Drain because it lets this CAP benefit from the ability without having to go special. Additionally, Water Absorb is a very understated ability, offering a benefit that is very specific in scope. This makes balancing it a bit easier.
Another option, from a more offensive perspective, is Quick Feet. This benefits from paralysis and poison, allowing an all-out attacker CAP to turn into a huge threat. An all-out attacker set with Toxic Orb also becomes possible, being balanced by its vulnerability to priority, vulnerability to all forms of passive damage (under sand and with hazards a toxic orb sweeper set won't last long) and inability to outspeed most scarfers.
And finally, a rather interesting option - Air Lock. This allows CAP2 to serve as a fantastic check against weather-oriented teams, since it will nullify the effects of weather while it is out. CAP2 becomes much reliable at taking rain-boosted water hits, and avoids taking passive damage from sand.
I feel like abilities like Technician and Sheer Force have far too broad of a scope. I think we need to tailor abilities that allow this CAP to perform specific roles very well. My suggestions do that well, I would say.
Analytic wasn't a bad idea. It provides flexability towards our choices of either a quick sweep or a...tank?
As for wonder skin, the reason it's preferable to shield dust is because shield dust doesn't stop thunder wave or will-o-wisp from coming to you and switching out is heartbreaking after using a gear shift, quiver dance, or some other boosting move and getting ready to sweep.
Oh god, please don't support Poison Heal. Do we really need a high Atk/SpD Gliscor running around? The last thing we want Sketchy to do is start stepping on another OU mon's toes.
On that note, Dry Skin is another awful option being passed around. I really despise the idea of making Sketchmon more weather-influenced than necessary, and giving it Dry Skin is like making a buffed Toxicroak that can Sub-Seed.
I'm falling into the Wonder Skin bandwagon here. While providing "hax effect" to CAP2, it can be a sufficient, yet not overwhelming, boon to Sketchy's sweeping prowess.
Alternatively, Shield Dust provides a similar effect by preventing hax and stopping a few strategies (notably Para-flinch). Seeing as Jirachi is supposed to stop CAP2, I feel the neutering of one of its main sets is a bit extreme.
Of the two, I feel Wonder Skin does a better job by forcing your opponent to think twice about that WoW or T-Wave if they will suffer a KO on a whiff.
The second ability I support is Iron Fist. Most complaints I'm seeing about this ability involve the negligible boost to Shadow Punch. What most seem to be missing is the potential to expand the bulky attacker role of Sketchmon by increasing the power of both Drain Punch and Focus Punch.
With Drain Punch, we're encouraging its use as a Coil/Bulk Up Sweeper to shine (a la Scrafty) which would likely otherwise fall to the wayside in favor of Gear Shift or Shell Smash sets.
With a boosted Focus Punch we get the ever-famous Sub-Punch used by a Pokemon that can actually create pretty sturdy subs. Add that to the unresisted combo of Ghost and Fighting and we have a whole new viable set outside of boosting.
On that note, Dry Skin is another awful option being passed around. I really despise the idea of making Sketchmon more weather-influenced than necessary, and giving it Dry Skin is like making a buffed Toxicroak that can Sub-Seed.
I'm falling into the Wonder Skin bandwagon here. While providing "hax effect" to CAP2, it can be a sufficient, yet not overwhelming, boon to Sketchy's sweeping prowess.
Alternatively, Shield Dust provides a similar effect by preventing hax and stopping a few strategies (notably Para-flinch). Seeing as Jirachi is supposed to stop CAP2, I feel the neutering of one of its main sets is a bit extreme.
Of the two, I feel Wonder Skin does a better job by forcing your opponent to think twice about that WoW or T-Wave if they will suffer a KO on a whiff.
The second ability I support is Iron Fist. Most complaints I'm seeing about this ability involve the negligible boost to Shadow Punch. What most seem to be missing is the potential to expand the bulky attacker role of Sketchmon by increasing the power of both Drain Punch and Focus Punch.
With Drain Punch, we're encouraging its use as a Coil/Bulk Up Sweeper to shine (a la Scrafty) which would likely otherwise fall to the wayside in favor of Gear Shift or Shell Smash sets.
With a boosted Focus Punch we get the ever-famous Sub-Punch used by a Pokemon that can actually create pretty sturdy subs. Add that to the unresisted combo of Ghost and Fighting and we have a whole new viable set outside of boosting.
I'm throwing my support behind Analytic. I think that ability will encourage CAP2 to run more defensively oriented sets as it has the ability to tank many hits and hit harder then it could back.
Immunity also sounds like a good idea, it makes CAP2 much stronger as a wall as it is immune to a very crippling status for walls. It prevents it from taking damage from poison yet it is still vulnerable to burn/paralysis, both status' that will majorly threaten its sweeping ability.
Compoundeyes sounds interesting, though I'm not sure how many moves CAP2 will actually be able to utilize well because of it. Focus Blast could potentially be one of the best moves to sketch on a Compoundeyes set, but you could always sketch something like Close Combat on a physical set which comes from a much higher base stat.
Immunity also sounds like a good idea, it makes CAP2 much stronger as a wall as it is immune to a very crippling status for walls. It prevents it from taking damage from poison yet it is still vulnerable to burn/paralysis, both status' that will majorly threaten its sweeping ability.
Compoundeyes sounds interesting, though I'm not sure how many moves CAP2 will actually be able to utilize well because of it. Focus Blast could potentially be one of the best moves to sketch on a Compoundeyes set, but you could always sketch something like Close Combat on a physical set which comes from a much higher base stat.
I actually like Technician bacause of the thing everyone is so concerned about, while it opens the ~90 BP HP, it makes it at the cost of speed on the common Hidden Powers (Fighting an Fire), and with capefeather's stats and this CAP in the 81 speed tier, if he gives up even one speed IV then you'll speed tie with some of your counters, opening a bigger chance for him to being KOed
That and Technician also gives you a very nice niche as a revenge killer, with a decent attack and the ability to have any priority in the game (coupled with STABed Shadow Snake) it might revenge any pokemon that's week to priority
This also helps weeker moves into getting picked up by the Sketch, niche an some a little gimmick, but that's how diversity plays, Icy Wind, AncientPower, Omnious Wind, Shadow Punch, etc... many moves that without it would be completely useless
.
That and Technician also gives you a very nice niche as a revenge killer, with a decent attack and the ability to have any priority in the game (coupled with STABed Shadow Snake) it might revenge any pokemon that's week to priority
This also helps weeker moves into getting picked up by the Sketch, niche an some a little gimmick, but that's how diversity plays, Icy Wind, AncientPower, Omnious Wind, Shadow Punch, etc... many moves that without it would be completely useless
.
To everyone supporting Air Lock/Cloud Nine:
Maybe it's just me, but are we not most likely going to do some sort of weather-related CAP in the future? I just don't think we should slap Air Lock/Cloud Nine on this CAP because we feel like it. It should be saved for a later CAP where we actually focus on maximizing its potential.
Maybe it's just me, but are we not most likely going to do some sort of weather-related CAP in the future? I just don't think we should slap Air Lock/Cloud Nine on this CAP because we feel like it. It should be saved for a later CAP where we actually focus on maximizing its potential.
Since there seems to be a lot of questioning about this particular ability, I'm going to delve into one of my personal favorites: Compoundeyes. Remember, this ability adds 30% of the accuracy of the move in question, not an overall total. So for example, at 70% accurate move becomes 91% accurate (70% plus 21%). This means that moves with 77% accuracy or higher will be 100% accurate. Below is a list of moves that CAP2 would be able to use much more viably with this ability that wouldn't normally be considered:
Supportive: CAP2 would benefit from many of the moves it could know naturally getting a boost, which could make Sketch into an interesting option for sets that want to run Screens, Double Status, Trapper, and other concepts.
- Will-O-Wisp: While it will most likely be considered for CAP2 regardless of ability, Compoundeyes makes CAP2 the best Will-O-Wisper in the game. With a nearly perfect 97.5% accuracy rate, this thing is almost guaranteed to be passing out some burns.
- Leech Seed: Although minor, it would have a 100% accuracy rate, which is kind of cool. If you've ever used Ferrothorn, you know how it feels to have this miss.
- Stun Spore: Like WoW, it gets boosted up to 97.5% accuracy, which is a pretty fun way to spread some paralysis.
- Magma Storm: Although an offensive move, it would get boosted up to 97.5%, which makes CAP2 a niche trapper.
Offensive: This is where Compoundeyes truly shines. Many moves that wouldn't always be considered for CAP2 suddenly become viable through Compoundeyes. Check it out:
- Blizzard / Thunder: These would reach a solid 91%, which gives CAP some really powerful coverage moves through Sketch.
- Fire Blast: One of the most debated coverage moves for CAP2 is Fire-type. In this situation, Fire Blast hits 100% of the time, which is a thing of beauty.
- High Jump Kick: You may laugh, but HJK coming off of a Pokemon with 120 Atk AND fearsome coverage with complimentary Ghost-STAB is going to leave a mark.
- Megahorn: Perfect accuracy on the strongest Bug-type move? Not necessarily the optimal choice, but at least the choice is there now.
- Overheat: It won't miss with this ability. Plus, that coverage of a Fire-type move with 140 SpA is great.
- Focus Blast: The Special side of Fighting-type coverage rolls in at a reasonable 91%. Focus Miss haters rejoice!
- Leaf Storm: 140 Base STAB that never misses is pretty nifty.
- Power Whip: Phew. CAP2's notable Attack stat and STAB Grass-type make Power Whip a perfect candidate. Step aside, Tangrowth, CAP2 can hit harder AND with impeccable accuracy.
- Stone Edge: IT WON'T MISS. Even though it's not the optimal choice for out project, it is still much more plausible that it used to be.
- Seed Flare: At 100%, it's a pretty safe choice for CAP2 to rely on Sketch for.
- Circle Throw/Dragon Tail: While not the BEST moves out there, their perfect accuracy could lead to some creative status shuffling sets.
- V-Create: 180 Base coming off of 120 Atk stat to provide coverage with a guaranteed hit. Wowza.
I hope this list helps for your consideration of Compoundeyes! As I think of more moves that are assisted by this ability, I will update the list.
Supportive: CAP2 would benefit from many of the moves it could know naturally getting a boost, which could make Sketch into an interesting option for sets that want to run Screens, Double Status, Trapper, and other concepts.
- Will-O-Wisp: While it will most likely be considered for CAP2 regardless of ability, Compoundeyes makes CAP2 the best Will-O-Wisper in the game. With a nearly perfect 97.5% accuracy rate, this thing is almost guaranteed to be passing out some burns.
- Leech Seed: Although minor, it would have a 100% accuracy rate, which is kind of cool. If you've ever used Ferrothorn, you know how it feels to have this miss.
- Stun Spore: Like WoW, it gets boosted up to 97.5% accuracy, which is a pretty fun way to spread some paralysis.
- Magma Storm: Although an offensive move, it would get boosted up to 97.5%, which makes CAP2 a niche trapper.
Offensive: This is where Compoundeyes truly shines. Many moves that wouldn't always be considered for CAP2 suddenly become viable through Compoundeyes. Check it out:
- Blizzard / Thunder: These would reach a solid 91%, which gives CAP some really powerful coverage moves through Sketch.
- Fire Blast: One of the most debated coverage moves for CAP2 is Fire-type. In this situation, Fire Blast hits 100% of the time, which is a thing of beauty.
- High Jump Kick: You may laugh, but HJK coming off of a Pokemon with 120 Atk AND fearsome coverage with complimentary Ghost-STAB is going to leave a mark.
- Megahorn: Perfect accuracy on the strongest Bug-type move? Not necessarily the optimal choice, but at least the choice is there now.
- Overheat: It won't miss with this ability. Plus, that coverage of a Fire-type move with 140 SpA is great.
- Focus Blast: The Special side of Fighting-type coverage rolls in at a reasonable 91%. Focus Miss haters rejoice!
- Leaf Storm: 140 Base STAB that never misses is pretty nifty.
- Power Whip: Phew. CAP2's notable Attack stat and STAB Grass-type make Power Whip a perfect candidate. Step aside, Tangrowth, CAP2 can hit harder AND with impeccable accuracy.
- Stone Edge: IT WON'T MISS. Even though it's not the optimal choice for out project, it is still much more plausible that it used to be.
- Seed Flare: At 100%, it's a pretty safe choice for CAP2 to rely on Sketch for.
- Circle Throw/Dragon Tail: While not the BEST moves out there, their perfect accuracy could lead to some creative status shuffling sets.
- V-Create: 180 Base coming off of 120 Atk stat to provide coverage with a guaranteed hit. Wowza.
I hope this list helps for your consideration of Compoundeyes! As I think of more moves that are assisted by this ability, I will update the list.
I'm not so sure about Iron Fist anymore. Like Raikaria said, 72 is only a bit higher than Shadow Claw, which probably makes it not worth it, and the other punching moves seem like they'd have to be learned naturally to be really viable, which of course is not guaranteed. It's still a good option to me, but I wish the boost were higher...
You said this in the stat poll and I still don't understand it. I don't how I'm expected to believe that that is going to get past most Steel-types easily. Magnezone isn't the perfect Steel killer; it can't really stop Heatran, and it comes with its own gaping liabilities. And you're stretching if you think people are going to put both Magnezone and Dugtrio into a team just to have that set sweep.
Timid +2 Shadow Ball deals 46.2% - 55.0% to SpD Jirachi...
Taking back a lot of statements in this post, lol... I think that this is an interesting ability. There's little point in preventing burns in general, but removing the threat of Scald burning is a pretty legitimate concern. I personally wouldn't rule out Storm Drain, either. I don't think there's much of a difference. I'm not sure I'm really on board yet, but I'm liking it a bit more now.
You said this in the stat poll and I still don't understand it. I don't how I'm expected to believe that that is going to get past most Steel-types easily. Magnezone isn't the perfect Steel killer; it can't really stop Heatran, and it comes with its own gaping liabilities. And you're stretching if you think people are going to put both Magnezone and Dugtrio into a team just to have that set sweep.
Timid +2 Shadow Ball deals 46.2% - 55.0% to SpD Jirachi...
Taking back a lot of statements in this post, lol... I think that this is an interesting ability. There's little point in preventing burns in general, but removing the threat of Scald burning is a pretty legitimate concern. I personally wouldn't rule out Storm Drain, either. I don't think there's much of a difference. I'm not sure I'm really on board yet, but I'm liking it a bit more now.
Would be completely bad to give this pokemon the ability color change? I believe this mon is going to be coming out a lot in rain where its going to be bombarded with thunder. Suddenly we have an electric type with fusion bolt/bolt strike. But then this mass of power could be its very downfall, simply, the opponent is in control of sketchmons type.
I would like to throw my support behind Natural Cure, Wonder Skin and Cursed Body.
Originally I was thinking along the lines of something like Limber, but a few things have made me reconsider. Making a Pokemon immune to paralysis makes is significantly harder to stop once it is set up. Additionally, as we wanted Jirachi to be a decent check to it, immunity to Paralysis makes that significantly harder for it to do so.
That being said, getting paralyzed sucks, and if it destroys CAP2s potential, then we want a way around it. That is why I like Natural Cure. While it does not prevent paralysis or other status, allowing it to still be stopped by them, it does allow it to eliminate the status and come back later, even if that means switching out and losing your boosts. I think this is the best of both worlds as it stops it from losing out completely to status, but doesn't make it impossible to stop with them.
Wonder Skin is a good choice for similar reasons, it doesn't stop anything itself, but it prevents status moves from being a complete stop to it.
Finally, Cursed Body is a great choice for more defensive reasons. Often times Pokemon will only have one move that can threaten a defensive Pokemon. With Cursed Body, it makes it hard for anyone whose power is not enough to break right through with one hit, as chance might not allow it to get a second one.
On the other side, there are a few abilities that I believe CAP2 should stay away from. First and foremost among these is Technician. Part of what we have done and are planning to do is limit CAP2s Special Offensive potential simply because of how powerful Special boosting moves are. Giving it Technician gives it 90 BP Hidden Power, effectively rendering any coverage movepool (or lack thereof) irrelevant. And truthfully, outside of Hidden Power, there is nothing Technician helps that we can't help just as much with a different ability.
And Secondly I would like to state my opposition to any ability that grants an immunity or a resistance (especially to fire). With all the boosting moves it gets, giving it more free chance to set up is not healthy for this CAP. And especially with fire, Heatran is supposed to be like counter #1, doing anything to let it take fire moves completely defeats that.
Originally I was thinking along the lines of something like Limber, but a few things have made me reconsider. Making a Pokemon immune to paralysis makes is significantly harder to stop once it is set up. Additionally, as we wanted Jirachi to be a decent check to it, immunity to Paralysis makes that significantly harder for it to do so.
That being said, getting paralyzed sucks, and if it destroys CAP2s potential, then we want a way around it. That is why I like Natural Cure. While it does not prevent paralysis or other status, allowing it to still be stopped by them, it does allow it to eliminate the status and come back later, even if that means switching out and losing your boosts. I think this is the best of both worlds as it stops it from losing out completely to status, but doesn't make it impossible to stop with them.
Wonder Skin is a good choice for similar reasons, it doesn't stop anything itself, but it prevents status moves from being a complete stop to it.
Finally, Cursed Body is a great choice for more defensive reasons. Often times Pokemon will only have one move that can threaten a defensive Pokemon. With Cursed Body, it makes it hard for anyone whose power is not enough to break right through with one hit, as chance might not allow it to get a second one.
On the other side, there are a few abilities that I believe CAP2 should stay away from. First and foremost among these is Technician. Part of what we have done and are planning to do is limit CAP2s Special Offensive potential simply because of how powerful Special boosting moves are. Giving it Technician gives it 90 BP Hidden Power, effectively rendering any coverage movepool (or lack thereof) irrelevant. And truthfully, outside of Hidden Power, there is nothing Technician helps that we can't help just as much with a different ability.
And Secondly I would like to state my opposition to any ability that grants an immunity or a resistance (especially to fire). With all the boosting moves it gets, giving it more free chance to set up is not healthy for this CAP. And especially with fire, Heatran is supposed to be like counter #1, doing anything to let it take fire moves completely defeats that.
Yes, I realise it.
But I also realise that a 50% chance of something working is significantly less than a 100%, meaning that it's possible to crippled Sketchy with Thunder Wave, but not impossible.
In addittion, Wonder Skin only prevents moves which explicitly cause status. Jirachi's Body Slams are still 60%.
And there's elements of hax in every sweep. Be they crits, high damage rolls, low damage rolls, misses, ect.
And what about Shadow Claw, which comes off the far more respectable physical attack, and hits Jirachi's oft-neglected physical defense? Even with Shadow Ball, that means Jirachi can't switch into Sketchy if rocks are down safely, and Sp.Def Jirachi is one of the most specially bulky things you'll see in the teir... other than Tyranitar.
So it's not raising a good point, if anything it's supporting mine.
EDIT: Did the calcs
Naughty Nature 252 Atk Adaptability Boosted + 2 Shadow Claw against standard Sp.Def Jirachi deals: 78.21 % ~ 92.57%
With a Life Orb, it's a clear OHKO: 101.98% ~ 120.29%
And seeing as Sketchy's Atk is far higher than it's Sp.Atk, a Shell Smash set would probobly use a Naughty Nature, not Timid, especially as +2 is enough to outspeed most things.
It's very hard for me to read the posts that suggest (or even those that oppose) some list of fifty abilities. Not only that, but it means that in order to keep the posts from being thirty MSWord pages long, you provide very little detail on each. I agree with Deck, stick to a few abilities you really like or really don't like and post on those in great detail.
Currently I really hate all weather interaction abilities. Not because they'd be too powerful—which, mind you, I think they would be—but rather because I think they're totally irrelevant to CAP 2. If we are going to give CAP 2 a "strong" ability, it needs to be relevant. If we're going to give CAP 2 no powerful abilities, then it doesn't really matter all things considered. This means that I personally consider Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, Sand Strength, Solar Power, Swift Swim, Sand Veil, Dry Skin, and Rain Dish are out. That also includes any that I forgot there, like Ice Body or what-have-you.
There are a lot of relevant and powerful abilities that I like. I think the two I'm most sold on so far are Technician and CompoundEyes. Technician is interesting because it enables a lot of new moves without making the already strong moves stronger. The only thing I really dislike about it is as tennisace pointed out; I don't like a 90 BAP Hidden Power. I could probably sway either way on it. CompoundEyes enables a lot of very cool moves that otherwise wouldn't really be viable, like a ~96% Will-O-Wisp (Sketched) and some other things. This leads me into how I feel that No Guard is well over the top. CompoundEyes is much more practical and down to earth, as much as mimic glitch players would like a CAP that has No Guard Sheer Cold learned naturally outside of Machoke.
I don't particularly like Adaptability because it makes its STAB options more powerful than we designed with stats and typing. Part of the reason why Grass / Ghost was such a good typing is that it affords good coverage, but has clear issues with the many Steels of OU. I don't think that boosting the STABs to help overcome that vulnerability is helping CAP 2 in a good way. This is also why I don't support Tinted Lens at the moment.
I'm also a fan of some of the competitive abilities that aren't relevant specifically because they aren't relevant. Among those I like here are Natural Cure and Regenerator. This is a decent argument because it's possible that we don't want to enable too much versatility. Anyway, good job so far! I'll keep following this thread for more ideas.
Currently I really hate all weather interaction abilities. Not because they'd be too powerful—which, mind you, I think they would be—but rather because I think they're totally irrelevant to CAP 2. If we are going to give CAP 2 a "strong" ability, it needs to be relevant. If we're going to give CAP 2 no powerful abilities, then it doesn't really matter all things considered. This means that I personally consider Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, Sand Strength, Solar Power, Swift Swim, Sand Veil, Dry Skin, and Rain Dish are out. That also includes any that I forgot there, like Ice Body or what-have-you.
There are a lot of relevant and powerful abilities that I like. I think the two I'm most sold on so far are Technician and CompoundEyes. Technician is interesting because it enables a lot of new moves without making the already strong moves stronger. The only thing I really dislike about it is as tennisace pointed out; I don't like a 90 BAP Hidden Power. I could probably sway either way on it. CompoundEyes enables a lot of very cool moves that otherwise wouldn't really be viable, like a ~96% Will-O-Wisp (Sketched) and some other things. This leads me into how I feel that No Guard is well over the top. CompoundEyes is much more practical and down to earth, as much as mimic glitch players would like a CAP that has No Guard Sheer Cold learned naturally outside of Machoke.
I don't particularly like Adaptability because it makes its STAB options more powerful than we designed with stats and typing. Part of the reason why Grass / Ghost was such a good typing is that it affords good coverage, but has clear issues with the many Steels of OU. I don't think that boosting the STABs to help overcome that vulnerability is helping CAP 2 in a good way. This is also why I don't support Tinted Lens at the moment.
I'm also a fan of some of the competitive abilities that aren't relevant specifically because they aren't relevant. Among those I like here are Natural Cure and Regenerator. This is a decent argument because it's possible that we don't want to enable too much versatility. Anyway, good job so far! I'll keep following this thread for more ideas.
I agree with reachzero almost 100%. I want to give this Pokemon an ability that it can use, but not one that's "good" if that makes sense. In other words, the ability should be useful, not dangerous. We, for example, do not need to give this thing Magic Guard or Drizzle or Intimidate or Moxie or something like that- I think CAPs have a tendency to go just a bit overboard, and we're playing with some really volatile shit here with a mon that could learn ANY MOVE. Limber is useful for the reasons he outlined, but I personally like Water Veil. The name admitted makes no sense on a Grass/Ghost mon, but for a physical attacker, being immune to WoW and being able to actually switch into Scald is enormously helpful. At the same time, it doesn't make him any more difficult to counter- if you were actually planning on Scalding this thing to death, you're doing it wrong, and not many Pokemon could really stay in on a Grass/Ghost mon and use willo wisp on it anyway.
I also want to post that immunity abilities are silly on CAP 2. Part of the reason this typing is so exceptional for CAP 2 is because it is vulnerable to Fire-type attacks. Adding a Fire-type immunity is not only nonsensical, but adds a layer of defense that is completely unaccounted for in typing and stats, and would likely make CAP 2 unrelentingly strong defensively. If Heatran can no longer check CAP 2, then that's a massive issue for CAP 2's balance. For this reason, I'm strongly against Flash Fire and similar immunity abilities. I also consider Thick Fat and Heatproof out for similar reasons. The weakness to Fire-type attacks is key to CAP 2's success, as we determined in the threats discussion stage earlier.
I'm throwing my support behind Compoundeyes and an "anti-status" ability, with my preference being for Shed Skin.
Dusk pretty much summed it up for Compoundeyes, and I agree, that increased accuracy would do well for a lot of Sketched possibilities (e.g. WoW as Dusk said).
I'd also like an anti-status ability that isn't Natural Cure, which seems somewhat overpowered as it is. Wonder Skin and Shield Dust are interesting enough, but I'm going to support Shed Skin, as it limits status without limiting status too much. That being said, Wonder Skin has the chance of preventing things like Taunt or Trick (as far as I can understand how Wonder Skin works), so that to me is also a good possibility.
I like the idea of Cursed Body, but I'm not too sure it would be too effective for this CAP, as to me it would rely on CAP2 surviving a move it doesn't want to be hit by, or switching in on a move it doesn't want to switch into.
If I'm going to support 3, they would be Compoundeyes and Shed Skin, with Wonder Skin being my #3.
Dusk pretty much summed it up for Compoundeyes, and I agree, that increased accuracy would do well for a lot of Sketched possibilities (e.g. WoW as Dusk said).
I'd also like an anti-status ability that isn't Natural Cure, which seems somewhat overpowered as it is. Wonder Skin and Shield Dust are interesting enough, but I'm going to support Shed Skin, as it limits status without limiting status too much. That being said, Wonder Skin has the chance of preventing things like Taunt or Trick (as far as I can understand how Wonder Skin works), so that to me is also a good possibility.
I like the idea of Cursed Body, but I'm not too sure it would be too effective for this CAP, as to me it would rely on CAP2 surviving a move it doesn't want to be hit by, or switching in on a move it doesn't want to switch into.
If I'm going to support 3, they would be Compoundeyes and Shed Skin, with Wonder Skin being my #3.
For sake of reference, here's some calculations from Honko's mass damage thingy re. Technician:
All calculations done assume +1 SpA, Life Orb, Modest and 252 EVs in SpA
Hidden Power Fight 70 vs. Heatran (Specially Defensive): 44.04 - 51.81%
Hidden Power Fight 90 vs. Heatran (Specially Defensive): 55.95 - 66.32%
Clean 2HKO where previously was not guaranteed with Stealth Rock.
Hidden Power 70 Fire vs. Jirachi (Specially Defensive): 44.55 - 52.47%
Hidden Power 90 Fire vs. Jirachi (Specially Defensive): 57.42 - 67.82%
Again, clean 2HKO.
Hidden Power 70 Fight vs. Ferrothorn (Standard): 52.84 - 62.5%
Hidden Power 90 Fight vs. Ferrothorn (Standard): 67.61 - 80.11%
2HKO with Leftovers either way. No real difference. Also, HP Fire always OHKOes for both.
Hidden Power 70 Fight vs. Scizor (Bulky SD): 33.13 - 39.53%
Hidden Power 90 Fight vs. Ferrothorn (Bulky SD): 43.02 - 50.58%
Meh.
Hidden Power Fight 70 vs. Togekiss (Paralysis Abuse): 21.12 - 25.13%
Hidden Power Fight 90 vs. Togekiss (Paralysis Abuse): 27.54 - 32.62%
Not much difference, all things considered.
Put very very simply, for our purposes Technician equates to about a 10% rise in damage output, which can be fatal against the likes of Heatran and Jirachi. This is the case for both Timid and Modest, though ceases to be of importance if running Leftovers.
Those are the important calculations; judge for yourselves whether Technician's overpowered. Personally I feel that the real danger from the Quiver Dance set comes from its STAB moves, as most Steel-types can be beaten with the one move but not the other.
Still supporting Compoundeyes and Technician.
All calculations done assume +1 SpA, Life Orb, Modest and 252 EVs in SpA
Hidden Power Fight 70 vs. Heatran (Specially Defensive): 44.04 - 51.81%
Hidden Power Fight 90 vs. Heatran (Specially Defensive): 55.95 - 66.32%
Clean 2HKO where previously was not guaranteed with Stealth Rock.
Hidden Power 70 Fire vs. Jirachi (Specially Defensive): 44.55 - 52.47%
Hidden Power 90 Fire vs. Jirachi (Specially Defensive): 57.42 - 67.82%
Again, clean 2HKO.
Hidden Power 70 Fight vs. Ferrothorn (Standard): 52.84 - 62.5%
Hidden Power 90 Fight vs. Ferrothorn (Standard): 67.61 - 80.11%
2HKO with Leftovers either way. No real difference. Also, HP Fire always OHKOes for both.
Hidden Power 70 Fight vs. Scizor (Bulky SD): 33.13 - 39.53%
Hidden Power 90 Fight vs. Ferrothorn (Bulky SD): 43.02 - 50.58%
Meh.
Hidden Power Fight 70 vs. Togekiss (Paralysis Abuse): 21.12 - 25.13%
Hidden Power Fight 90 vs. Togekiss (Paralysis Abuse): 27.54 - 32.62%
Not much difference, all things considered.
Put very very simply, for our purposes Technician equates to about a 10% rise in damage output, which can be fatal against the likes of Heatran and Jirachi. This is the case for both Timid and Modest, though ceases to be of importance if running Leftovers.
Those are the important calculations; judge for yourselves whether Technician's overpowered. Personally I feel that the real danger from the Quiver Dance set comes from its STAB moves, as most Steel-types can be beaten with the one move but not the other.
Still supporting Compoundeyes and Technician.
First of all, I'd like to throw my support behind Cursed Body. Its not overpowering in any stretch of the imagination, and its never been seen in a competitive environment, as Jellicent always uses Water Absorb. Most of CAP2's weaknesses are to coverage moves that aren't often seen together. This means if you get lucky, than you can force their counter out. This is especially good on a defensive set which can take most unstabbed SE moves.
I also like Iron Fist and Sniper for an offensive ability. Both increase the viability of our physical ghost moves, but neither makes CAP2 that dangerous, essentially what we need. I think that one of these, paired with a defensive ability liked Cursed Body gives CAP2 an option for either offensive or defensive sets, neither of which overpower CAP2.
However, my bigger concern is Technician. This ability completely defeats the purpose of Sketch. You should have to chose between coverage and stat boosting. With base 90 Hidden Power, you don't need to. For special sets, STAB/STAB/HP/Tail Glow is likely the moveset either way, but increasing the power of HP is not productive. Are we going to give CAP2 Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Aura Sphere, Surf, Earth Power, and Thunderbolt Plus a Sketch move. For a wall breaking set, you can go Shadow Ball/Grass Knot/V-Create/HP Fighting(90). With Technician, offensive sets essentially get TWO sketch moves due to the power of Hidden Power. Most people want to give CAP2 a limited movepool. If this is so, why give it Technician, completely defeating the purpose of a small movepool? This thing has Sketch, good typing, solid stats, and now we want to give it an ability that eliminates the possibility of balancing CAP2 in its movepool. This isn't the right way to "balance" CAP2. Save Technician Hidden Power for a later CAP that doesn't already have access to a good move from any type.
I also like Iron Fist and Sniper for an offensive ability. Both increase the viability of our physical ghost moves, but neither makes CAP2 that dangerous, essentially what we need. I think that one of these, paired with a defensive ability liked Cursed Body gives CAP2 an option for either offensive or defensive sets, neither of which overpower CAP2.
However, my bigger concern is Technician. This ability completely defeats the purpose of Sketch. You should have to chose between coverage and stat boosting. With base 90 Hidden Power, you don't need to. For special sets, STAB/STAB/HP/Tail Glow is likely the moveset either way, but increasing the power of HP is not productive. Are we going to give CAP2 Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Aura Sphere, Surf, Earth Power, and Thunderbolt Plus a Sketch move. For a wall breaking set, you can go Shadow Ball/Grass Knot/V-Create/HP Fighting(90). With Technician, offensive sets essentially get TWO sketch moves due to the power of Hidden Power. Most people want to give CAP2 a limited movepool. If this is so, why give it Technician, completely defeating the purpose of a small movepool? This thing has Sketch, good typing, solid stats, and now we want to give it an ability that eliminates the possibility of balancing CAP2 in its movepool. This isn't the right way to "balance" CAP2. Save Technician Hidden Power for a later CAP that doesn't already have access to a good move from any type.
I don't think anyone's expected a given Pokémon to counter CAP 2 outright. I'm not sure what you're saying by implying that Jirachi is switching into a +2 Shadow Ball. If anything, the original switch-in may be less valuable and just sac itself, leaving Jirachi to revenge kill/paralyze. The idea of luring and beating checks with a different set isn't exactly a novel concept. And god help you if the opponent has multiple Steels...
I'm not even sure what your point is anymore. Not only is this no longer relevant to Technician, but you had the SAME base SpA in your stat submission, so this can only really be about a gripe with the Atk stat. This could have been mentioned in the stat spread submission thread or sooner instead of the honestly paranoid-sounding, simplifying comments that kept being posted about the high-offense submissions.
I don't mean to sound really defensive (I'm not even sure about Technician, may not support it due to its power with HP Fighting on non-boosting sets), but with some of the arguments sometimes, I feel like people would call Salamence broken if CAP made it. In this generation. Seriously.
*edit after doing some calcs* wait a second... Why is Raikaria's calc Adaptability boosted? What? O.o
So far, nobody has mentioned Shed Skin as an ability. I think that this would help support Bulky Set-Up sets in general, although not too much, and allow for the use of Rest as a non-Sketch recovery move without needing 3 turns of sleep (if lucky).
Also, I think Overcoat would be a nice ability, since it gives immunity to hail/sand (mostly sand) which would help on any bulky mon.
These abilities would have use on any set really, and especially set-up sets that need to be in for long periods of time to work. I think that they encourage bulky offense, which is one goal of this CAP, but I don't think that they allow for one playstyle to become the "best" with this pokemon, nor do they eliminate any potential counters to this pokemon, such as Heatran.
Also, I think Overcoat would be a nice ability, since it gives immunity to hail/sand (mostly sand) which would help on any bulky mon.
These abilities would have use on any set really, and especially set-up sets that need to be in for long periods of time to work. I think that they encourage bulky offense, which is one goal of this CAP, but I don't think that they allow for one playstyle to become the "best" with this pokemon, nor do they eliminate any potential counters to this pokemon, such as Heatran.
Illusion would be a gamechanging ability on CAPmon, adding to its unpredictability. It would also serve as a pseudo-check to the status conditions you people are so worried about. I mean, who would burn a reuiniclus or use a thunder wave on gastrodon? The basic use of Illusion, i.e. impostoring as another pokemon would help CAPmon pull off a boosting move without much trouble, which is a huge plus. Also, the brittleness of Illusion serves as semi-decent check to its power, and if you make a wrong assumptio
@Bugmaniacbob: Those calculations are great and everything, but I question why you are assuming +1 Special Attack. That of course is the case on a quiver dance set, but what is the impact of Technician on Shell Smash and Tail Glow sets? The difference in damage output is surely much more noticeable there.
For example, if a SpDef Heatran gets a free switch in on CAP2 as CAP2 Tail Glows, does a 70 BP HP Fighting OHKO? If it doesn't, does the 90 BP one? Do Stealth Rocks affect either the base 70 or base 90 ones?
This is obviously important because the base 70 one at +3 might not OHKO and CAP2 would have to take a Fire move, get Roared, etc, but the base 90 one might.
For example, if a SpDef Heatran gets a free switch in on CAP2 as CAP2 Tail Glows, does a 70 BP HP Fighting OHKO? If it doesn't, does the 90 BP one? Do Stealth Rocks affect either the base 70 or base 90 ones?
This is obviously important because the base 70 one at +3 might not OHKO and CAP2 would have to take a Fire move, get Roared, etc, but the base 90 one might.
My favorites so far are Compound Eyes and Natural Cure in that order. Both of these abilities make neither offensive nor defensive sets too dominant over the other. What sweeper doesn't want perfectly accurate STAB moves or coverage moves? What tank/wall doesn't want a ~96% accurate Will-o-Wisp or Stun Spore? Natural Cure is to less of an effect for a set-up sweeper, but makes a tank/sponge very viable. Besides, (looking at the Art Submissions thread) quite a few submissions look like they would have one of these abilities.
Tail Glow is slow as hell and doesn't have priority, and you aren't going to be blocking it anyway. Revenge killing is far easier. Shell Smash is BP Scizor bait.
I jest, but Quiver Dance is most peoples' biggest concern with the beefed Hidden Powers, so I only put up a +1 SpA worst-case scenario.
Also throwing support behind CompoundEyes.
Actually, if I can convince you guys, I would rather say No Guard
Why No Guard? Surprisingly, it's not overpowered. It opens up all these new attacking options that are basically unexplored: Magma Storm, Zap Cannon, DynamicPunch (ok that's explored but) Blizzard, Inferno, Focus HIT, etc.
The point is, CAP2 gets one overpowered move. At the cost of boosting. I find that to be a fair trade, and it will open up more defensive sets to possibility.
Other than that, CAP can get a boost to moves it already will probably have: WoW, Leech Seed, Power Whip, Stun Spore, and more. But it only gets ONE powerful move.
I think we can all say that's not overpowered
Actually, if I can convince you guys, I would rather say No Guard
Why No Guard? Surprisingly, it's not overpowered. It opens up all these new attacking options that are basically unexplored: Magma Storm, Zap Cannon, DynamicPunch (ok that's explored but) Blizzard, Inferno, Focus HIT, etc.
The point is, CAP2 gets one overpowered move. At the cost of boosting. I find that to be a fair trade, and it will open up more defensive sets to possibility.
Other than that, CAP can get a boost to moves it already will probably have: WoW, Leech Seed, Power Whip, Stun Spore, and more. But it only gets ONE powerful move.
I think we can all say that's not overpowered
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