Lucario

In theory, Substitute would be nice. However, Sub + NP/SD means removing one of Lucario's attacks. Most of the time, this will be either ExtremeSpeed or Vacuum Wave. Both are moves I find to be a necessity when using either Swords Dance or Nasty Plot Lucario (respectively). Lucario absolutely needs the priority. If something faster than Lucario comes in on it and Luke doesn't have a sub, you can expect Luke to go down quickly. I say stick with plain old SD Lucario. ExtremeSpeed is too good to give up, and getting rid of Crunch or Ice Punch means getting stopped cold by any Ghost-type Pokemon. Substitute just isn't worth it.
 
It does cause switches tho, so it would get free boost behind the sub and dark pulse could beat gliscor with flinch. Perhaps a protect set for scouting? :)
 
GracefulChaos said:
It does cause switches tho, so it would get free boost behind the sub and dark pulse could beat gliscor with flinch. Perhaps a protect set for scouting? :)
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Yeah, Lucario forces switches...to which it would have a free boost ANYWAY. In the end of a theorized couple of turns, it ends no differently with or without the Sub, except Lucario loses an extra 25% health and it's a lot more likely to lose matches without Priority or Coverage.

And Lucario, yet again, not fast or bulky enough to even consider scouting.

And if used properly? You won't need the sub in the first place. If you take out all the speedy mons, it's likely Lucaio with either +2 CC/Crunch(Ice Punch)/Extremespeed or +2 Aura Sphere/Dark Pulse/Vacuum Wave (HP Ice) will wipe out an entire team ANYWAY.

You're overthinking Lucaio.
 
"It causes switches" isn't enough of a reason to warrant a Substitute set. Lately in the OU Analyses forum, there's been a lack of originality with people just putting Substitute on random Pokemon and expecting it to work. Lucario doesn't really have much of a use for Protect, in my opinion. No one with a brain is going to use Leftovers on Lucario, so using Protect gives you no real benefits. You also have to consider the four moveslot syndrome and the fact that Lucario STABs don't go well together. Terrakion gets good enough coverage from just Close Combat + Stone Edge, so a Substitute set on Terrakion is a bit more reasonable. If Lucario can force switches, why not just set up right away and start kicking ass? You shouldn't be trying to set up with Lucario, regardless of whether or not you have Sub, if your opponent's Lucario counters are still alive and kicking.

Edit: lol 448 posts... Lucario's Pokedex number... Just sayin'.
 
LucaroarkZ said:
"It causes switches" isn't enough of a reason to warrant a Substitute set. Lately in the OU Analyses forum, there's been a lack of originality with people just putting Substitute on random Pokemon and expecting it to work. Lucario doesn't really have much of a use for Protect, in my opinion. No one with a brain is going to use Leftovers on Lucario, so using Protect gives you no real benefits. You also have to consider the four moveslot syndrome and the fact that Lucario STABs don't go well together. Terrakion gets good enough coverage from just Close Combat + Stone Edge, so a Substitute set on Terrakion is a bit more reasonable. If Lucario can force switches, why not just set up right away and start kicking ass? You shouldn't be trying to set up with Lucario, regardless of whether or not you have Sub, if your opponent's Lucario counters are still alive and kicking.
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Yeah, and I wish that the mods would shut down the OU Analyses for a bit, or make a system where people have to run things by them, because it's ridiculous how many random sets have been posted recently.

Graceful, I understand and admire your want to make something original for Lucario but honestly, there's only so much you can do with it. It's pretty much been tapped out.
 
No need to be harsh to the guy, sheesh.

I think LucaroakZ explained the lack of Substitute/Protect on Lucario best. Lucario's best bet is to force something out while boosting and proceed to sweep - Substitute really doesn't help you get there. By the way, Terrakion's Substitute set isn't about making it a better sweeper - it's about beating Scizor, Terrakion's number one check.

Saitsuofleaves, we don't need a quality control for quality control. If a set doesn't pass QC, it doesn't go on the main site. It's that simple.
 
They are referencing why Terrakion is able to effectively use Substitute, while Lucario would not be able to. I agree with the others saying that a Sub + Boosting set would just leave lucario walled by too many pokemon. 3 Attack Lucario already has problems with 4 move syndrome, so I would imagine that a 2 Attack Lucario would have even more problems. Perhaps substitute + 3 attacks may work, but I dont see Substitute + Boosting move haveing too much success. Just my 2cents
 
Yeah, but Lucario's frailty and stats don't really warrant just a Sub set. Only way I see that working out is if you find yourself getting constantly dogged by Sableye.

And if I seemed harsh, I apologize (especially considering I'm actually happy today) but I was just saying he was overthinking Lucario a slight bit.
 
Terrakion has near perfect coverage within his STABs, is much quicker, is bulkier, gets a sand boost, and is just a more threatening pokemon.

Extreme Speed is mandatory on SD Luke considering the utility. You also need coverage, and you can't fit them both on the subtitute set.
 
LizardMan said:
Terrakion has near perfect coverage within his STABs, is much quicker, is bulkier, gets a sand boost, and is just a more threatening pokemon.

Extreme Speed is mandatory on SD Luke considering the utility. You also need coverage, and you can't fit them both on the subtitute set.
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You can't fit both on any set honestly. Lucario tends to need more coverage than either Dark Pulse/Aura Sphere or CC/Crunch allow, but the priority is very needed, and obviously the boosts are needed somewhere.

Maybe a better question to ask is, what could Lucario get that can help some of these problems?

As for Anti-Lead Luke alright, exactly how would you go about that? Let's hear you out.
 
Ok how about Focus Sashed

-Close combat
-ExtremeSpeed
-Ice Punch
-Crunch/Swords Dance
Adamant if running Crunch Jolly if SD

Kill most weather summoners for sure
 
Yeah, but you're essentially turning Lucario into a suicide lead against the most common leads in the game short of like...Politoed and Heatran and MAYBE Scizor. Unless that's what you're going for.
 
Lucario can hide behind dual screens (Cresselia or espeon to set them up and maybe draw in dark-type moves for Lucario to recieve a Justified boost) and set up a swords dance and proceed to sweep once. You can use Cresselia's Lunar Dance to heal Lucario a second time for it to sweep twice. Or it can create the one-two punch combo with terrakion
 
I think luke should make use of the 110 atk he has or else its just doing nothing and i HATE wasted stats. While running a justice heart luke you can still have him be modest with extreme speed. yes, its power does go down, but as was pointed out earlier, it has +2 priority this gen. that can revenge kill weakened pokes even without the ability boost. if his ability boost his attack, great, more power to him...literally. however, on a modest set, i dont recommend close combat...just extreme speed. reason being is because of the priority. both other moves would be special attacks to go along with his higher special attack and nature. i would use such if mine were to have nasty plot:

Lucario@ Life Orb
-Nasty plot
-Extreme Speed
-Aura Sphere
-Dark Pulse/Shadow ball
4/hp 252/sp. atk 252/spe

vaccume wave is viable over extreme speed but is only +1 priority and still a special attack, which blissey, eviolite chansey, gyarados, and snorlax LOVE. while running extreme speed over VW wont beat out ur scarfed heatran, ttar, or excadrill, arua sphere wil take care of ttar and the others u can just switch. switching isnt the end of the world.
 
Okay, here's the problem with what you're saying.

Firstly, what priority user has base 90 speed, invests heavily in it, and is commonly found in the OU metagame? MAYBE infernape.MAYBE. I haven't seen one of those in months, but it's possible.

Secondly, a plus 2 vacuum wave is base power 120. A plus zero e-speed is base power 80 off of a lower, uninvested stat, so you just lost serious power.

Thirdly "Which blissey, eviolite chansey, gyarados, and snorlax LOVE." Despite the special bulk, the first two and the last still don't enjoy a STAB SE plus 2 LO 90 BP attack coming from 115 base special attack fully invested(You forgot to mention nature)-and almost certainly don't take less from that than from a plus zero 80 Bp lo e-speed off of uninvested 110 base attack. As for gyarados, he has intimidate-what's your minus one e-speed doing to him exactly?

Fourth, excadrill is banned.

Fifth, for a frail LO pokemon, switching often IS the end of the world.

Sixth, scarftran is exceedingly rare, scarftar very rare as well.

Seriously, people, lucario is a very simple pokemon. We've found his effective sets. Sub sets, choiced sets, double dance sets, work up sets, and anti-lead sets-none are very good.
 
Lucario (M) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Steadfast
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Aura Sphere
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Subsitute

Lucario (M) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Steadfast
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Crunch / ExtremeSpeed
- Ice Punch
- Subsitute

Actually, Saitsuofleaves and LucaroarkZ, I find that there is a good reason to use Substitute. You have to remember that people can always pivot switch against Lucario until they can find a Pokemon to outspeed and handle it, and no matter what you do its likely for Luke to just die. So, despite the fact that he can set up in a turn, Substitute has its merits. I find this very true with a special set, as with an Expert Belt Lucario can dent pretty much anything that switches in with his fantastic coverage. The same can go for a physical set, which can also use Espeed the turn after to pick something off thats faster than him. These are, in fact, usable sets and they do have a niche over standard SD Lucario. Unlike that set, Substitute Lucario doesnt suffer from massive 4 moveslot syndrome, and can reliably kill his usual counters.

It can take U-Turns without losing a Sub, kill Gliscor reliably, dent Scizor and Rotom, and damage Landorus/Latios without fear. Don't knock an idea like that before you try it.
 
i never said scarf tar, i was making a statement against another agument. yes, take away modest and make him rash. that would be better, i thought about that after i posted. and as a rebuttle to investing in speed and still having a priority move, why cant he? thunderus does and his thunder wave is prioritized. its great to do that cuz then he can outspeed anything not scarfed under 90 base speed and priority anything over. my moveset still stands because he is faster than all the defensive pokemon i named earlier because he has aura sphere to handle ttar, snorlax, blissey, and chansey. also, i know excadrill is an uber, but there arent any tiers on GTS matchup. so that would also be well enough for others that frequent the GTS matchup. Any set is a good viable set...if it is utilized correctly and in circumstantial favor.
 
SupaChinChin said:
Lucario (M) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Steadfast
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Aura Sphere
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Subsitute

Lucario (M) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Steadfast
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Crunch / ExtremeSpeed
- Ice Punch
- Subsitute

Actually, Saitsuofleaves and LucaroarkZ, I find that there is a good reason to use Substitute. You have to remember that people can always pivot switch against Lucario until they can find a Pokemon to outspeed and handle it, and no matter what you do its likely for Luke to just die. So, despite the fact that he can set up in a turn, Substitute has its merits. I find this very true with a special set, as with an Expert Belt Lucario can dent pretty much anything that switches in with his fantastic coverage. The same can go for a physical set, which can also use Espeed the turn after to pick something off thats faster than him. These are, in fact, usable sets and they do have a niche over standard SD Lucario. Unlike that set, Substitute Lucario doesnt suffer from massive 4 moveslot syndrome, and can reliably kill his usual counters.

It can take U-Turns without losing a Sub, kill Gliscor reliably, dent Scizor and Rotom, and damage Landorus/Latios without fear. Don't knock an idea like that before you try it.
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Now, why exactly would I use a Lucario set that can "dent" Scizor when I can use one that can OHKO Scizor outright, like, I dunno, Swords Dance? A +2 LO ExtremeSpeed also already does plenty of damage to Landorus, and as I said, you shouldn't be setting up with Lucario too early in the game.

SD Lucario can beat Gliscor by running Ice Punch. Job done. You have six Pokemon on your team, not one, if you need to cover something with a move you're not using on Lucario, cover it with a different Pokemon.

Also, I don't think you understand how bad Expert Belt is on most Pokemon competitively. Lucario isn't an exception. Lucario's also quite weak without Life Orb. It absolutely needs the Life Orb boost. That's why I said Substitute doesn't have any merit. Also, don't forget to consider that Substitute cuts 25% off of Lucario's health, and if the opponent realizes you have Substitute, they'll just keep on breaking them. Lucario doesn't have good defenses, so its Substitutes will break against any competent player. If you just predict a switch (like you normally should be), you get a good shot at eliminating a troubling Pokemon and you only lose 10% to Life Orb recoil. Which do you choose?
 
Yeah, not only did you take away Life Orb boosts from Lucario, you also took away the +2s from NP/SD. Now Lucario's Atk and SpA stats are solid, but that's a lot of power you're taking away from him. Add to the fact that he's frail as all hell and the Subs won't be holding up from even Neutral damage, and sometimes even NVE damage.

But unlike my colleague here, I will give you a chance to show why you think it's worth it. There's a reason we have logs. Post some relevant logs, and let's discuss that.
 
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