np: UU Stage 6 - No Surprises

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Stole this from DLC, but it's great for building an argument around this debate.

1. Is the metagame truly better without Sand?
2. Is it acceptable to ban something on personal preference?
3. What is the community's stance on this issue, and to what extent should that opinion be considered.
etc.

Alright. I'm gonna break this down, using a mixture of my opinion and those expressed by others (like an 85 / 15 split).

1. Is the metagame truly better without Sand?

Short and sweet, no. Nothing about removing sand makes UU better. More or less, all it does is make Stoutland easier to out-speed and Gligar easier to hit. Sure it brings items like Life Orb back up to a high and reduces a Pokemon's dependency on its typing, or carrying Leftovers or a recovery move. Regardless, sand is merely a playstyle, and even though it's the only permanent weather available in UU and is technically riding at a mere 6.1% usage, any decent player should be prepared for it. There are ways to play around Sand, and even though tactics like Ran Dance or Sunny day can be undone by switching Hippopotas back in, as a community, very few and far between of us actually use these tactics, and simply allow Sand to run through us. Calling for the ban of Sand is like trying to ban stall. It's a playstyle, and players are butt-hurt because they either have difficulties or simply cannot beat sand and what it brings.


2. Is it acceptable to ban something on personal preference?

Absolutely not. Banning requires something to be too good, it's uncompetitive, and simply having (for example) a Sand Veil Gligar on a Sand team does not gain you an automatic win. It's a 20% increase in Evasion, and even if it gives you an advantage, even the slightest, it's not guaranteed to change a game. Gligar is piss weak, and can't hit much without using its STAB or Toxic. People that call for Sand to be banned generally base it off a personal preference, simply because it ended a ladder streak or caused them to over-react to a child's game. Statistically, and seeing that less than 10 Pokemon directly in the UU tier immediately benefit from Sand, there's really no need to ban it. You're only going to see it 3 in every 50 battles (6.1%). Once again, something should be so good it ruins the metagame, and Sand is not that dominant in UU.

If you ask me, we should unban Drought Vulpix and Snow Warning Snover and bring them back to UU or make a larger emphasis on Rain Dance / Sunny Day teams, giving some balance to the weather spat. I just don't see sand needing a ban.


3. What is the community's stance on this issue, and to what extent should that opinion be considered.

My interpretation on the community's stance on Sand is it should go for suspect, as the PO environment compared to our own have shown different aspects of Sand in and out of the metagame, and that these aspects should be put to the test to see if Sand truly needs to be banned without bias. This and the opinions expressing fact-based arguments that supply examples, explanations, and reason really should be the opinions heeded. These are players offering better to great advice on how to make the UU tier better. Basically, anyone to have replied in the last 3-5 days and have collectively more than 4 paragraphs to support their stance should have their opinions heard. The general stance on Sand that "it needs to go, as soon as possible", without the effort of researching a sandless UU metagame should be generally ignored. It offers little reason as to why Sand should go, and normally has little support.

However, we must remember that sand is only a playstyle, and doesn't dictate the metagame. This is BW UU, not DPP OU. If the Senate and the majority of the tier cannot live to see a metagame without Sand, then by all means, ban it. I don't play sand, and have played against it, and I see no issue with it. But up until that point, I see there to be no reason for Sand to be more than suspect outside of personal preference, de-warranting the need for a ban.
 
Ok, I'm not here to say whether sand as a whole is broken or not. But I will use this post to try to explain to the senators that a complex ban of Sand Stream + Sand Veil is better than a full-out ban on Sand Veil in just about every possible way.

Firstly, I'd like to consider why you want to ban Sand Veil in the first place. Games that should be won suddenly are turned into losses because of a miss on Gligar as it then SubToxices you to eternity. The problem with this is not just that bullshit hax cost you the game, it's that you didn't have a choice on whether your 100% accuracy move suddenly has the accuracy of Stone Edge. This is why Sand Veil is in fact not comparable to using Stone Edge, because by using Stone Edge you acknowledge that 20% of the time you will miss. You don't have this choice when playing against Sand Veil.

Well the first thought must be, ban it then. Anything that imposes an unnecessary luck element to the game is what we want to avoid in competitive play (note that I do not actually hold this belief, but that's irrelevant). However, there are side effects to banning Sand Veil as a whole. While it's really only one thing, it leads to a whole host of other stuff about banning policy and the effects of one tier's actions on another. The fact is, that by banning Sand Veil entirely you are also soft-banning Sandslash and Gabite from UU and below, while also forcing moveset restrictions on Cacturne. While I realize that none of those things are really important, it's simply easier to do a complex ban.

Now the one counterpoint that can be made against a complex ban is that if you use sand and your opponent uses Gligar, you may have to deal with a miss costing you the game. But with a complex ban in place, this is okay because you chose to use sand in the first place. In that case, it is exactly identical to using Stone Edge in that you fully accept the risk that comes with using it. Therefore, an argument against a complex ban is effectively an argument as to why we should ban Stone Edge. At that point, the complex ban has all the same positives but fewer negatives except for the fact that people like to get greedy and completely remove all elements of luck from the game if they can. It's just not right, really. Honestly, you have to accept the fact that Pokemon is a game in which the better player does not always win.

I hope that people reading this post strongly reconsider their stance on this, because as said before a complex ban is quite simply easier than a full ban. Of course, this brings up the point that all complex bans lead down a "slippery slope" in which we start making arguments for Kyogre to be legal but only at Level 60 and without Water Spout. A complex ban in this case allows for more consistency within tiering policy, but at some point you have to draw the line. Unlike other flawed proposed complex bans, this isn't a nerf nor does it limit the viability of other Pokemon other than the one in question. Ultimately, we will decide on what gets banned and what does not based on what makes sense, and in this case it just plain doesn't make sense to implement a full ban on Sand Veil when a complex ban is just better.

The main point of this post is that you don't have a choice on whether you miss against a Gligar against a sand team, but you do take a risk when you use sand and your opponent has a Gligar if a complex ban is put in place.
 
Results for this vote will be announced on Saturday or Sunday.

My suggestion is to talk about other, less stressful stuff, from here on out :)

Is there anything else you guys would like us to vote on at the moment? Or perhaps some cool sets you've been using and want to share?

Do it while we wait!
 
First of all: @complete legitimacy
It is outrageous that you believe that luck should be eliminated from competitive pokemon. Simply put, the better player SHOULD NOT always win. Hax is part of the game. Plus, you only have a 20% chance of missing.

Second of all: Even though I KNOW SAND WILL BE BANNED, I do not believe it should be banned. A primary argument of the unelected Senators will likely be that Sand limits teambuilding. Um, hello. UU has a healthy 53 pokemon. Sand limits teambuilding just as much as Roserade or Chandelure limits teambuilding. You sure can't use Mismagius with Roserades and Chandelures running about. But we shouldn't ban them because we ahve a healthy metagame as it is. People say it "nerfs the Life Orb". Actually, the UU metagame currently has a 6.2% Life Orb Nerf Rate, or LONR. Notice how more things have been banned from UU recently than from OU and RU COMBINED. I think that says something about the ban-happy Senate.

UU serves the purpose of those who want to use a non-overpowering weather, but don't want to have to fight hard for it. (e. g. OU) This is not the only purpose of UU. UU combines other balanced pokemon to check the sand. Besides, once Virizion and Scrafty drop, sand will be undeniably screwed. As Aretha Franklin once said: "You gotta think about the consequences of your actions". So please. Think.
 
Okay, guys. The worst event in the history of the Underused Tier is about to happen if Smogon as a whole doesn't do a thing about it. No, I'm not talking about that Sand crap I've made it damn clear about that yadda yadda yadda.

I'm talking about...

j90Qn.png


PANIC NOW said:
| 53 | Chansey | 13647 | 3.160% | 11180 | 3.142% |

At this rate, we're all either going to have to ladder OU like crazy with this bitch or face

UU Stage 7: Goddamn Pink Blobs

No, but seriously, there's a high chance based on previous stats that we might have to deal with three more months of Chansey (Arceus punishing us for banning Sand, perhaps? Maybe Hippopotas is colluding with the Original One...), so let's discuss what the Evil Fucking Pink Rhyperior-walling Blob can do to UU...

Especially if there's no Sand to lower her HP every turn X_X

Personally, I think this blob is going to be a big, big presence in UU. Flygon can't 2KO Chansey with Adamant CB Earthquake (but can with Outrage), Chandelure can't touch the blob unless it's running Calm Mind (even then a Chansey user will just pass a 8000 HP Wish to the team's resident Chandy counter...), Raikou's walled, Mew's statused, Nidoking's walled, Aracanine can beat it but will massacre itself with Flare Blitz, every Spinner outside of Hitmontop is walled, Rhyperior's going to need to start Choice Banding, etc.

Chansey's just an ass, and we're going to have to deal with her.


Also @ TheBaron: Have a little faith. The no-ban group has been quite vocal and we should have confidence that the Senate will take our opinions into account. As a former Senator, I guarantee you that your words are not falling on deaf ears. It'll be what it'll be. There is no guarantee that Sand is going to leave, and I guarantee you this decision will not be the landslide 7-0s we're used to seeing. This will more than likely be a close vote.
 
I'm going off of your post, because the sand issue has been beaten to a pulp and my input would hardly matter since I havent kept up to date with it in awhile haha.

But I dont believe chansey would be that overpowering like it once was. We still do have strong physical attackers like Machamp and Darmanitan who dropped when she left. However the latter might kill itself in the process. I will be a little down because now hazards are going to have a much larger presence on the metagame. Roserade and frosslass are just gonna have a "field day" (eh eh,nunch nunch). And rapid spinning still sucks in this metagame, so Im not seeing chansey being the annoying pink blob that i used to want to vote out of UU like she once was.

BTW other than snorlax and possibly P2 what does counter sub CM chandelure? It would not be wise for someone to run both Chansey +Snorlax/P2 on the same team. And P2 is screwed if the chandy is flamebodied. So in essence CM chandy might just become viable and even deadlier thanks to using chansey as set up bait. lol similar to mismagius scenario back in Gen IV. Bulky waters arent exactly the answer though they can break the sub even after a few CMs. So seriously what would stop chandelure from going berserk IF chansey was brought back down?

EDIT: Check that, Houndoom the suprise counter haha
 
I wish I could share your optimism jama. I won't completely condemn the meta change before it actually happens, but Chansey was the biggest bitch when it roamed UU before. Yanmega will fall back, along with every single non-fighting HO Pokemon. And as for special attackers, forget about it. Except for ghosts of course. Though, maybe CM Bronzong will come through for me again. Steel typing to block toxic, Psyshock, this can work. Though Seismic Toss may render Bronzong useless if it gets too much damage. Regardless, I'm going to plan for the pink bitch.
 
Okay, guys. The worst event in the history of the Underused Tier is about to happen if Smogon as a whole doesn't do a thing about it. No, I'm not talking about that Sand crap I've made it damn clear about that yadda yadda yadda.

I'm talking about...

j90Qn.png




At this rate, we're all either going to have to ladder OU like crazy with this bitch or face

UU Stage 7: Goddamn Pink Blobs

No, but seriously, there's a high chance based on previous stats that we might have to deal with three more months of Chansey (Arceus punishing us for banning Sand, perhaps? Maybe Hippopotas is colluding with the Original One...), so let's discuss what the Evil Fucking Pink Rhyperior-walling Blob can do to UU...

Especially if there's no Sand to lower her HP every turn X_X

Personally, I think this blob is going to be a big, big presence in UU. Flygon can't 2KO Chansey with Adamant CB Earthquake (but can with Outrage), Chandelure can't touch the blob unless it's running Calm Mind (even then a Chansey user will just pass a 8000 HP Wish to the team's resident Chandy counter...), Raikou's walled, Mew's statused, Nidoking's walled, Aracanine can beat it but will massacre itself with Flare Blitz, every Spinner outside of Hitmontop is walled, Rhyperior's going to need to start Choice Banding, etc.

Chansey's just an ass, and we're going to have to deal with her.

You forget that along with Chansey, there are good odds that we're getting 3 very decent fighting-types for UU in Toxicroak, Scrafty, and Virizion, and all of which can threaten and beat Chansey. This'll increase usage of things like Darmanitan too, who's insane attack stat will threaten Chansey too. We always have Coballion, Machamp and Heracross to fall back on too. I figure if Chansey falls back into UU, it won't be as devastating as it used to be, as it's potentially bringing 3 of its nemeses with it.
 
@pokemazter: I think this may just create more "type obligatories". Already a bulky water is literally essential on every team to deal with darm and vic and often a fire type is completely necessary too to handle roserade who sets up all over bulky waters. Every team will have to carry a fighting type if chansey drops down and then special attackers just won't be seeing usage. At all.

On the other hand, top 60 ubers stats:

| 30 | Chansey | 899 | 3.845% | 730 | 3.931% |

Can something with that kind of usage in ubers drop down to UU? Or even something that has been virtually unanimously banned drop down again? If it does drop down, quick ban is the way forwards in my opinion. UU is quite balanced atm, granted, offense is still much easier to pull off than stall, but that's not so large a problem in my view.
 
@pokemazter: I think this may just create more "type obligatories". Already a bulky water is literally essential on every team to deal with darm and vic and often a fire type is completely necessary too to handle roserade who sets up all over bulky waters. Every team will have to carry a fighting type if chansey drops down and then special attackers just won't be seeing usage. At all.

On the other hand, top 60 ubers stats:



Can something with that kind of usage in ubers drop down to UU? Or even something that has been virtually unanimously banned drop down again? If it does drop down, quick ban is the way forwards in my opinion. UU is quite balanced atm, granted, offense is still much easier to pull off than stall, but that's not so large a problem in my view.

chansey was never banned from UU. It was close to it, but the prevelance of many strong physical attackers, the usage of spikes, and chandelure kept her from being a top tier pokemon. This metagame now will be chansey's biggest downfall still. She is good at her job, but not as good as she used to be IMO.

Also uber stats dont mean a damn thing about their usage in other tiers. People tend to forget that ubers is a BANLIST tier, so a usage in ubers doesnt change nor affect any other metagames. Shedinja has more usage in the uber metagame than in its actual tier. Gastrodon as we all know is complete crap in UU has a great role in ubers. and even in OU where it was moved to. Long story short a pokemon's role in one tier doesnt determine its how powerful it is in other tiers, and chansey is no exception to this rule
 
I hate Chansey and I'd never use the fucking bitch but I think you guys are very much underestimating how annoying the bitch is. You realize Chansey can wall fucking RHYPERIOR and any physical attacker. I do hope we get Virizion down here though, one of my favorite mons. It would be worth it.
 
Chansey :(. The Pokemon that single-handedly made CB Kyurem viable could be back in UU, and looking at the stats, if we get a repeat of this month we won't see any of the three fighting-types we're looking forward to either. Honestly if that is the case (Chansey drops and none of Virizion/Mienshao/Scrafty do) I feel like the senate should vote on her immediately. It's just retarded how heavily she centralises the metagame around physical attacker.

On the plus side at least, 252 Atk Choice Band Stoutland (+Atk) Return vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 43.04% - 50.71%.
The self-proclaimed best special wall in Pokemon is also fully capable of stalling out one of UUs most popular Choice Banders.

252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Waterfall vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 44.74% - 52.84% - sorry Azumarill, you're not a fighting type, you better be feeling lucky because if you're not you're being walled too.

252 Atk Scrafty (+Atk) Hi Jump Kick vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 68.18% - 80.54% - Scrafty better be carrying a Life Orb if it's hoping to OHKO Chansey, because if it isn't she can Wish and play Protect mindgames with it.

252 Atk Scrafty (+Atk) Crunch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 21.02% - 24.86% - yes, that means Chansey has a chance to live Hi Jump Kick -> Crunch pretty handily if you want to be wary of Protect.

On the special side: 252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Mew (+SpAtk) Aura Sphere vs 252 HP/4 SpDef Eviolite Chansey: 42.61% - 50%
Even in an absolute best-case scenario, Mew must roll max damage twice in a row to 2HKO. If you stick with Leftovers and Timid? Well, good luck not having a guarenteed 3HKO. Even with Psyshock, Lefties Timid Mew never 2HKOs at +2.

If Chansey stays, the only viable special attackers will have STAB Psyshock, because running anything else is just a liability. 252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs 252 HP/4 SpDef Eviolite Chansey: 42.61% - 50%
Porygon-Z is in the same boat - it's either getting very lucky or getting walled, and this is from one of the strongest special attackers in UU after a NP boost. Anything without NP that attacks on the special side and isn't ghost-typed will just drop off the radar. Raikou? Chansey laughs at it. Every team will turn into either stall or spikestacking physical offense with the odd ghost-type to try to exploit her. That or a couple lures and stacked special attackers, I guess, but there aren't many lures that can beat Chansey without being horribly overspecialised. Even the ones that can forgo a lot of things just because she's around.

This is without even mentioning what happens when you bring Slowbro into the mix. Please OU, use Chansey more. We don't mind if you want to be greedy and not give us any of the fighting-types we've been looking forward to if you keep Chansey.
 
On the plus side at least, 252 Atk Choice Band Stoutland (+Atk) Return vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 43.04% - 50.71%.
The self-proclaimed best special wall in Pokemon is also fully capable of stalling out one of UUs most popular Choice Banders.

Well, it can't actually due to sand damage, meaning it will take minimum 49% every turn. But I agree with your other points.

@jama, ok, fair point. I know ubers stats doesn't actually affect the ban, but I think it makes a point on how something that doesn't rely on weather is still popular in ubers and is coming to UU. I'm not really worried. I don't think the council will let the blob stay around for long at all, and if it does, I'll go over to RU and LC. I don't see much point in this discussion as I find it hard to believe that the council will not quick-ban.
 
@jama, ok, fair point. I know ubers stats doesn't actually affect the ban, but I think it makes a point on how something that doesn't rely on weather is still popular in ubers and is coming to UU. I'm not really worried. I don't think the council will let the blob stay around for long at all, and if it does, I'll go over to RU and LC. I don't see much point in this discussion as I find it hard to believe that the council will not quick-ban.
We've had Chansey in UU before too and dealt with her for a long time before she went OU. We know what she can do. Regardless, most of the voterbase in rounds past still disagreed with her ban. If her next stay in UU proves treacherous, then it will likely be over a longer period of time than a quickban would be appropriate.

I also think that Fighting-types are often obligatory because of Snorlax. As a special wall, he's not that difficult to break (due entirely to his lack of non-rest recovery), but I know I'm not the only one who's panicking once he gets that first Curse up. If you're not carrying a Fighting-type already then chances are, your offense is going to be a lot harder to establish than necessary.
 
Chansey was less threatening in past UU rounds due to the fact that Deoxys-D was there, guys. The simple fact that an awesome hazard settler for offensive teams used Chansey as a complete set up bait made Chansey much less effective, something we can't say now, as hazard settlers are plain worse. Especially considering Blastoise beats every spinblocker 1on1 (it can Roar SubCM Chandelure, too)

The argument of ''but strong physical attackers can break through Chansey''. Well, that's not that simple. Especially considering Chansey walls even Rhyperior, yes, you heard it right, unless Rhyperior packs some kind of boost it can be stalled out by Chansey. While it's true that things like Heracross or LO Darmanitan can destroy Chansey, coupling Chansey with something like Qwilfish or Gligar can stop almost all of those Physical Attackers, while setting up hazards that prevent offensive teams from making switches.
 
I think I am missing as to why chansey is such a threat. It relies on seismic toss for it's offensive move, so any ghost type that is faster or has priority (sableye, hint hint) can easily taunt it and not take any damage at all, then either go offensive or toxic the chansey. (unfortunately sableye cannot hit chansey with night shade) Sure, this does not work insanely well with a full team up, but in a 1 on 1 scenario this should always work.

Also, if hippopotas is to be banned, then eviolite gligar could run immunity as its go to ability over sand veil, making chanseys chance to toxic stall impossible. In fact gligar could run taunt, knock off, toxic and either protect or roost just to counter chansey. Another possible option is a swords dance set with roost.

Someone mentioned nasty plot mew earlier, I would just like to put out that Azelf has better offensive stats, psyshock and nasty plot. So it would deal more damage than the previously stated mew set.

I will post more things as I think of them, although admittedly a few sets are over focused on countering chansey (although they could counter other walls)

Edit 2; Cobalion looks like a great chansey counter as it is immune to toxic and already runs swords dance and taunt

Edit 3; Yet another poke; Crobat. It's regular set taunts chansey, then proceeds with a brave bird dealing 36-42% damage. You can roost the next turn and just repeat the process. Brave bird may take out chunks of health of Crobat that are just to much, as I have not looked at what the recoil would be.
 
Yeah yeah I think we all know Chansey walls Rhyperior now (assuming Rhyperior can't get a critical hit or any type of boost and Chansey is at good health). Frankly if you're banning sand/sand veil because its not fun then ban Chansey too because we all know it won't be fun to play against. (I'm pretty serious actually). Before you go talking about how it can wall anything though you should at least consider the fact you are poisoning the well a bit, at least give it a Chansey a chance (haha punny) before you believe so resolutely it is broken.

I rather talk about this boss.
Shedinja has more usage in the uber metagame than in its actual tier.

292.png


Let's make his tier UU!

He sweeps teams in a flash and sets up easy win conditions. Combined with Magic Bounce Xatu and Rain Dance Kingdra (a decent Pokemon and an awesome Pokemon in their own right respectively) the residual damage that Shedinja fears is almost a non-issue. Combine this with Zororak for extra trolling factor and to get surprise KOs on SR users (Kingdra used Specs Grass Knot on Swampert!) If you ban sand then Shedinja becomes even more amazing, by far. Half of the tier cannot land a hit on Shedinja (Raikou, Suicune, Cobalion, Kingdra, Swampert, Roserade etc.) All of them are awesome Pokemon and you will probably see at least one if not two or three of them in a battle. Plenty of stuff that can hit Shedinja are choice users meaning that Shedinja can actually set up on them occasionally and whack them over the head with SD boosted priority. Switching Shedinja on a choiced U-turn is pretty sweet.

But wait there's more, this lovely little item called a Focus Sash is what gives half of Shedinja's success. Yeah that means you need at least two Pokemon to hit Shedinja if you want to have a shot at beating it because plenty of things that would otherwise KO it are simply killed right back because Focus Sash. Every single Pursuit user dies to X-Scissors but if Shedinja still dies to them it is well worth the cost because now your opponent is stuck on Pursuit when you can set up your weather attacker (Rain Dance Kingdra please) and obliterate more crap. The best thing to do very often is to just SD voost on the would-be-ko move (Flare Blitz from Darmantian for instance) and then KO right back with your boosted priority.

Shedinja is not weak. At all. Frankly just about anything with access to SD can automatically be dangerous because basically every user ofSD can get Zekrom+ levels of attack after a single boost. Adding in double priority to the mix sweetens the deal. Darmantian is OHKO'd by a boosted Sucker Punch after Stealth Rock damage. Flygon takes upwards of 60%. Bulky Pokemon who plan to status Shedinja had better beware too because Shedinja can outspeed anything slower than Umbreon (including Relaxed Claydol who run Earthquake and Ice Beam) and then do major damage with a decent powered STAB move coming off what is almost the same as CB Rhyperior's attack.

Here's part of a log where you see Shedinja in action with my opponents name edited out:


Start of turn 13
XXX called Arcanine back!
XXX sent out Suicune!

XXX's Suicune is exerting its Pressure!
Rhyperior used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around XXX's team!

Rain continues to fall!
XXX's Suicune restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 14
piffy called Rhyperior back!
piffy sent out Shedinja!

XXX's Suicune used Scald!
Shedinja's Wonder Guard evades the attack!

The rain stopped!
XXX's Suicune restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 15
XXX called Suicune back!
XXX sent out Heracross!
Pointed stones dug into XXX's Heracross!

Shedinja used Swords Dance!
Shedinja's Attack sharply rose!

Start of turn 16
XXX's Heracross used Stone Edge!
It's super effective!
Shedinja hung on using its Focus Sash!
Shedinja lost 0 HP! (0% of its health)

Shedinja used X-Scissor!
It's not very effective...
XXX's Heracross lost 51% of its health!

Start of turn 17
Shedinja used Shadow Sneak!
XXX's Heracross lost 36% of its health!
XXX's Heracross fainted!

XXX sent out Arcanine!
Pointed stones dug into XXX's Arcanine!

Start of turn 18
piffy called Shedinja back!
piffy sent out Rhyperior!

XXX's Arcanine used Flare Blitz!
It's not very effective...
Rhyperior lost 115 HP! (44% of its health)
XXX's Arcanine is hit with recoil!
XXX's Arcanine is hurt by its Life Orb!

Rhyperior restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 19
XXX's Arcanine used Morning Sun!
XXX's Arcanine regained health!

Rhyperior used Earthquake!
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
XXX's Arcanine lost 94% of its health!
XXX's Arcanine fainted!

Rhyperior restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
XXX sent out Suicune!
Pointed stones dug into XXX's Suicune!

XXX's Suicune is exerting its Pressure!
XXX: gg since i cant kill the shedinja

Start of turn 20
piffy called Rhyperior back!
piffy sent out Shedinja!

XXX's Suicune used Scald!
Shedinja's Wonder Guard evades the attack!

XXX's Suicune restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Using Zororak helped keep Stealth Rock off the field because it was disguised and hit their Claydol with a Specs Dark Pulse. My opponent's team (Arcanine / Shaymin / Suicune / Claydol / Heracross / Weavile) only had one Poke, Suicune, that couldn't touch Shedinja and yet see how Shedinja still earned the win.

This is the set I use by the way, screw Will-o-Wisp I never wanted it. Lonely is to make Download raise Attack. Also beware of Trace Porygon2 or any other Trace user - never switch in Shedinja if you know they can trace you.

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Trait: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Lonely Nature (+Atk, -Def)
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Sucker Punch
- X-Scissor
 
I really hope Virizion becomes UU, I believe that would make the tier about as enjoyable as it could possibly be. I can not tell you how many teams that I have built that Virizion would fit perfectly on. The day that this happens and the day the child of satan, Chandelure, leaves the tier because of Shadow Tag will be very enjoyable for me. I am not really going to say much about Chansey because we haven't seen her in action in this new metagame, but it will be nice to see some more variety in the tier with stall being much easier to pull off.


(In b4 everyone starts screaming about Chansey without even seeing her in action in this new metagame)
 
so guys......

how about dem specs chandelures??? what is everyone using to check it?

so far in every team i've built, its "run p2 or lax or lose a mon every time it comes in" (assuming it predicts right if have a bulky water and something to take shadow / energy balls)
 
I also think that Fighting-types are often obligatory because of Snorlax. As a special wall, he's not that difficult to break (due entirely to his lack of non-rest recovery), but I know I'm not the only one who's panicking once he gets that first Curse up. If you're not carrying a Fighting-type already then chances are, your offense is going to be a lot harder to establish than necessary.

That's true I guess, though I've nearly always been on the sending end of curselax, so all I know is that your only chance is to trick it a choice item or phaze it while it's sleeping. It's close to essential, but still not on the levels of having to run a steel type in OU for example.

On the topic of specs chandelure, I've been running snorlax on pretty much every team I've made. Not really specifically as a chandy check that much, but just because curselax is absurdly good in this metagame. Otherwise, I guess running kingdra and a steel type works ok enough. That SR weakness really limits the number of times chandy can come in and drop a nuke on something.
 
so guys......

how about dem specs chandelures??? what is everyone using to check it?

so far in every team i've built, its "run p2 or lax or lose a mon every time it comes in" (assuming it predicts right if have a bulky water and something to take shadow / energy balls)

Generally I just make sure everything on my team outspeeds it (it runs 80 Speed and Modest, so this isn't hard at all; even wallbreakers like Heracross outspeed it), and I never put a Choice Scarf on anything (unless it's Darm, because of Sheer Force) as that makes you down a Pokemon against defensive teams. If these conditions can't be avoided, I use something like Kingdra + Houndoom and force it to use Shadow Ball. And of course, on slower teams P2 and Snorlax.

There are also random NUs that can be customized to work for specific weaknesses. For example, specially defensive Camerupt totally walls Raikou and Zapdos because they can't hit it with a super-effective hidden power (who runs HP Water?), so on teams that are weak to Raikou/Zapdos you could run Camerupt with SR/Fire Blast/EQ/Stone Edge. I'm not sure what you'd use against Chandelure, but this is mostly because Chandelure is slow and so I have no trouble dealing with it on offense teams, and it isn't that big a deal to stall teams because of abundant special walls (Umbreon, SDef Milotic, SDef Snorlax).
 
so guys......

how about dem specs chandelures??? what is everyone using to check it?

so far in every team i've built, its "run p2 or lax or lose a mon every time it comes in" (assuming it predicts right if have a bulky water and something to take shadow / energy balls)
for most of my teams, either the team has p2/snorlax, or there is nothing it can come in on
 
Also, 252 HP/252 Def + Chansey has
125,664 physical durability and
259,776 special durability
after Eviolite.

252 HP/252 SDef + Porygon2 has
121,176 physical durability and
177,837 special durability
after Eviolite

Apparently Chansey's even bulkier than P2 against non-Chandelure opponents. Physically defensive P2 can have more physical durability but has like half Chansey's special durability. Add in Natural Cure, Wish-passing, Aromatherapy, Stealth Rock, etc.--dang, what a great support Pokemon. P2 does thankfully have good offense, but I might have to start running Analytic on him for the LO boost in order to distinguish him from Chansey to the fullest.
 
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