General Suspect Discussion Thread

[Jimera0]

@Melee Mewtwo:

It's your DSi, I've written posts MUCH longer than either of yours without ever hitting one. IMAGE limits on the other hand...

Anyway, so far I haven't really found anything to be broken in this current metagame. Everything is either hard counterable or not that hard to play around.

Tornadus-T, for instance, isn't nearly as threatening to me as it's being made out to be. For reference, I'm not running a team with Jirachi, Chopple T-tar or Chansey. The closest thing to a Tornadus-T counter I have on my team is my Specially Defensive Heatran. That being said, Heatran isn't OHKO'd by Superpower (though it does take a hefty chunk), meaning as long as I'm smart about my switches I can usually land a Lava Plume before switching out again.

The biggest thing with Tornadus-T is that it is so easily revenge killed by just about any priority other than Mach-Punch, meaning forcing it into a check position is easy. Superpower really lacks power, and with a little prediction can be easily neutered until it is swapped out. It might have Regenerator but it still doesn't like rocks. Generally, I find as long as you have something that can take a Hurricane, you can beat Tornadus-T. And every team usually has something that can take a Hurricane for reasons other than Tornadus-T, such as taking Draco Meteors. I'd like to remind everyone that Tornadus-T isn't the only thing around that has few counters; look at Salamence and Terrakion. Yet I don't see anyone here claiming they're broken. No, you just have to learn to play around them. And so is the case for Tornadus-T.

I've already given my opinion about Rain before, but I'll sum it up here again. Rain is a really diverse playstyle. It can be stallish, offensive, bulky, whatever. I'd hate to see all that variety that it adds to the game go away. It's not like rain breaks everything it touches; we've lived with Rain for a long time and while its always been popular it's also always been beatable. The one argument I see again and again against rain is... well just lists of all the things it benefits. I find this entirely unconvincing though, simply because it doesn't matter how many things it helps. You can't put all those things on one team. Those things aren't broken when they're put on teams together, because otherwise no one would be able to use anything except rain, and considering the number of successful weatherless teams I've used and seen recently I don't think that's the case.

I think that if the people who think Drizzle is broken stopped looking at the big, intimidating number of threats rain has and started looking at each of those threats individually they'd be a lot less scary. Think of Drizzle as just another playstyle, like HO or Stall for a second. We look at the individual threats when we look at playstyles, and that's what we should do with Drizzle. If we look at the individual threats we find the vast majority of rain abusers are not broken. If you find otherwise then you'd have to consider a lot of other things broken too, in my opinion, as there are a lot of equally effective Pokemon that don't use Drizzle. The few that are have already been taken care of individually (Swift Swimmers primarily).

Bottom line, I think the policy should be to ban individual abusers that go over the edge, not the weather itself. Drizzle is a massive segment of the metagame. And for those who say it causes the metagame to be stale, you need to step back for a moment and look at the sheer variety of rain teams there are out there. If we ban rain we aren't promoting variety, we're dramatically limiting it.

now for the tl;dr people:
-Tornadus-T is fairly easy to play around, and is not broken. It's not the only thing with few hard counters; just look at Terrakion and Salamence
-Drizzle is not broken in that it is beaten just as often as any other playstyle, at least when the participants aren't newbs.
-Rain has a lot of toys, but this is what makes it so diverse and valuable. Without it we lose a huge amount of variety in the metagame.
-In order to preserve that diversity we should only ban individual broken threats within rain, not the field condition itself. I believe this has already been done, and no further bans are needed.

REALLY tl;dr
Nothing is broken, leave it as it is.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Thundurus-T: I've been using Sub Nasty Plot and it gives any balanced / Stall team without a gastrodon trouble. Even Ferrothorn takes upwards of 70% from a boosted Thunder and while it has some difficulty setting up, it can prey on Forretress, Ferrothorn, most water types will switch out, etc. Even against offensive teams, Life Orb Thunder is OHKOing a lot on your average offensive pokemon. 101 base speed is good but not great, so it can be revenged quite easily. It still has some universal counters regardless of the set, like Gastrodon and Quagsire and some other Water/Grounds.

Grass Knot says hello.

But most people don't use it for some reason... I use, as Grass Knot can get past these and other threats like Hippowdon and Mamoswine (this must be hit on switch, otherwise it KOes with Ice Shard).

Really, the things that I think that deserve a test are Tornadus-T, Genesect and Keldeo. Of these, only Tornadus-T in my opinion has a chance to be banned. Thundurus-T would be even better than Tornadus-T if it had more speed, and Meloetta is versatile, but very far from overpowered. Landorus-T as you said, lack reliable recovery and on sand teams it's outclassed by his genie form.

-Rain has a lot of toys, but this is what makes it so diverse and valuable. Without it we lose a huge amount of variety in the metagame.

The problem is that Rain has a lot of toys, and other weathers, well... They should envy Rain, as they don't have half of the toys that Rain have.

 

[SpecsX]

There really isn't anything broken in this meta IMO. The closest thing is Tornadus-T but with a SR weakness, Regenerator-added bulk doesn't go far at all, and it's counters can also be haxed through(although the chance of that happening isn't anywhere near as likely as Sand Veil). I can't say even Tornadus-T is OP, as simply getting rid of rain screws it over to an extent.

 

[Shouting]

Good Point on Grass Knot, but like you said next to no one uses it...

I've been using Gotheille recently as a partner to Keldeo on a rain team. It was rather interesting because I tailored it to specifically to help a Keldeo sweep (Psyshock, Signal Beam, Hidden Power Fighting, Trick with Specs) and it eliminated Celebi, Amoongus, and Blissey etc. which was awesome. However, you can only take out so many targets. Like with my set, I couldn't touch Gliscor, Hippo, Forretress, Skarmory, etc. So it's pretty specialized. It can take out one or two walls on a stall team before it dies, which is good but it's not really broken when it can be easily pursuit trapped.

 

[tehy]

@Ricky horror: That's kinda like saying any Choiced mon can't be broken. Sure there are ways to play around it, but those 120 base attacking stats, STAB U Turn, wide coverage movepool, Download and 99 base speed is going to make it hard. Plus its got a solid defensive typing that let it switch in a lot easier.

Gothitelle is underated because stall is less common than offense in BW2 for obvious reasons. However, for Stall teams it's a nightmare. Losing your Chansey turn 3 cause a Hydreigon U-Turned into him as you brought her in to sponge a Draco Meteor is enough to lose you the game right there. Stuff like Amoongbro also fears sets like Choice Specs with its boosted coverage moves and unavoidable Trick.

Edit: @the guy above me: in BW1 it was standard to run Cursed Body on every one of its sets but Specs since it let you cripple a mon and force a switch with Recover stall. A water resist and 105 base Spdef WAS enough to deal with water attacks.

Actually; it wasn't, since a water resist and base 105 spdef was really not enough to deal with water attacks;recover stalling is a fail-strat, if they do less than enough to kill you then they'll probably just bugger off. Often a weakened jellicent can be picked off by strong water attacks; it lets you heal for free if you guess correctly when a water attack is coming, and it means that you can't be burned by scald;which means that with taunt slower bulky waters like vaporeon, slowbro, gastrodon, politoed, and possibly other jellicent can't wear you down with status;while you can wear them down with WoW, scald, or even toxic, although that's rare on jellicents.

Oh and i checked;Analysis below.

"Cursed Body has more situational uses, but is still viable. For example, choice-locked users will typically be unable to do much to the combination of Cursed Body + Recover, and Calm Mind Reuniclus will often be beaten one-on-one."

I don't believe this was altered for bw2. So nice job stating something blatantly untrue as a counterargument?

 

[Danger Mouse]

Okay, my opinion of the current metagame?

TORNADUS-T: I'd say of anything in the meta, this is the closest to broken. It has the perfect combination of a brutal STAB, blazing speed, and a fantastic ability that allows it to hop in and out without worrying too much about residual damage. I'd say it's the most threatening Pokemon in OU right now. If you don't have an answer for it you WILL be sorry. Is that reason enough to ban? I'm not really sure. It certainly makes me nervous every time I see one in team preview.

GENESECT: Very, very good. Has many good sets, and can be tough to handle if you don't know what you're doing. However, it is far from broken IMO. First of all, Genesect absolutely hates hazards. It is a hit-and-run poke, and being forced to take damage every time it comes in severely limits its effectiveness. Secondly, that troll 99 base speed causes it to lose out against any base 100 scarfers (Mence being the most notable, since his scarf set tends to run fire blast). Also, since Genesect relies so heavily on Download, you can tweak EVs on your own pokes to prevent him from getting boosts that will ruin you.

WEATHER IN GENERAL: I've tried weather teams, and though they can be very powerful, the fact of the matter is that keeping your weather on the field can be a chore, and losing the weather war can gimp some of your most important team members. Sure, it's an easier playstyle overall (Politoed, Dugtrio, Ferrothorn, Tornadus-T, Toxicroak, Starmie, there I just pulled a rain team completely out of my ass, and I bet it would be effective), but that doesn't make it broken or overcentralizing. If any weather HAD to go, I'd say rain is the worst overall.

OVERALL: I wouldn't mind seeing Tornadus-T banned, but I wouldn't push hard for it either. I also wouldn't morn the loss of Drizzle, but again I wouldn't push for it. Nothing else strikes me as completely broken. Oh, aside from Jirachi. I hate Jirachi with the passion of 10,000 burning suns...but I doubt my irrational hatred of that annoying little bastard is enough to warrant it bring kicked up to ubers. Seriously, though, I've always found that little shit to be completely and hopelessly broken.

 

[Shouting]

That anaylsis was pretty early BW1, where cursed body was indeed seen as inferior at first, but as BW1 went on, Cursed Body had utility against things like Calm Mind Reuniclus and other Calm Minders which often only have two attacking moves. Obviously you had to use Night Shade to get the most of it, but otherwise it was still a good option over Water Absorb. Still, in BW2, I would probably stick to Water Absorb because you kind of need it with rain everywhere and Reuniclus has fallen off the radar for a bit.

 

[tehy]

If i really wanted to beat CMclus;i'd just run a sableye. On a stall team that has problems with Cmclus; you can just have sable and a chansey anyhow.

If you're on a more balanced or offensive team, just carry a powerful attacker or two and keep them back for the end. Or trick.

 

[MMII]

Ah, oops, I remembered wrong. However, the point still stands. On the main set, both abilities were considered viable making it standard. (along with Water Absorb :p) Nowadays, Cursed Body is just stupid as it can't beat Keldeo without Water Absorb.

And, yes, it was enough as you need a Spatk stat of 434 to deal 202 damage max to a Jellicent with zero investment. With LO that means a base 117 neutral nature. That's not even considering min rolls and leftovers.

 

[tehy]

But melee; who's the person here attacking? Name me some names of pokemon that will be doing this. if you really can't break it when it recovers, it should really just GTFO.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Actually; it wasn't, since a water resist and base 105 spdef was really not enough to deal with water attacks;recover stalling is a fail-strat, if they do less than enough to kill you then they'll probably just bugger off. Often a weakened jellicent can be picked off by strong water attacks; it lets you heal for free if you guess correctly when a water attack is coming, and it means that you can't be burned by scald;which means that with taunt slower bulky waters like vaporeon, slowbro, gastrodon, politoed, and possibly other jellicent can't wear you down with status;while you can wear them down with WoW, scald, or even toxic, although that's rare on jellicents.

Oh and i checked;Analysis below.

"Cursed Body has more situational uses, but is still viable. For example, choice-locked users will typically be unable to do much to the combination of Cursed Body + Recover, and Calm Mind Reuniclus will often be beaten one-on-one."

I don't believe this was altered for bw2. So nice job stating something blatantly untrue as a counterargument?

Cursed Body isn't a bad ability. However, with Hydro Pumps coming from here or there, Water Absorb is certainly the preferred ability.

Good Point on Grass Knot, but like you said next to no one uses it...

Grass Knot is not worth using outside of Choice sets, and even then you must give up Volt Switch or a coverage move. Still, the ability of getting past Swampert, Gastrodon, Quagsire, Hippowdon and Mamoswine, and hitting Terrakion and a low health Tyranitar more reliably than Focus Blast makes this move really worth at least trying.

If i really wanted to beat CMclus;i'd just run a sableye. On a stall team that has problems with Cmclus; you can just have sable and a chansey anyhow.

Chansey is still defeated by Reuniclus, but Sableye in fact walls any Reuniclus that lacks Shadow Ball, but no CMclus uses this move.

 

[Thorhammer]

Definitely nothing broken, at least so far. Genesect and Tornadus-T are top threats, and they do new things that people haven't always gotten ready for. In the past, Flying was a near-nonexistent attacking type in OU, and so people had never adjusted to the idea that they might need to prepare for a powerful Flying-type attacker. Banning Tornadus-T because you don't want to make teams that can handle Hurricanes is no better than people in the past trying to ban Dragons because they didn't want to make teams that could handle Outrages.

 

[yee]

This meta is a POS that can be more skill based and less matchup based easily. As for other suspects Terrakion was broken and hurting BW1, and Genesect seems debatable right away.

 

[Jimera0]

This meta is a POS that can be more skill based and less matchup based easily. As for other suspects Terrakion was broken and hurting BW1, and Genesect seems debatable right away.

Ah yes, I was itching to reply to that post but I knew better than to. Thanks for giving me the opportunity :P.

*IMPORTANT NOTE*Any references to "you" are in the general sense, not at you specifically. It's just a way of speaking I tend to use. *END IMPORTANT NOTE*

In my experience I do not find the meta to be particularly matchup based unless you make a team that easily loses to several common matchups, and that's usually the fault of the teambuilder. Due to the sheer number of threats both offensive and defensive, there's always going to be a few things you can't cover perfectly, but I don't think that's reason to dramatically cut down on the number of threats. That's part of what attracts a lot of people to this metagame is that there are SO many things to try out. In the past you could try Stall, HO, Balanced and Bulky offense, and various points in-between and that was really it, aside from maybe dabbling in trick room and rain dance. These days? You have all the stuff you could do before, but now you also have vastly different variants of them in sun, sand rain and hail as well. You can make dozens of teams a never do the exact same thing twice. By kicking out weather inducers you cut out one of the very defining aspects of this generation and one of the aspects which makes it the most fun for new players and older players (with open minds) alike.

And if you do end up with a poor matchup? Well, I can tell you from plenty of experience that skill still can pull your ass out of it most of the time. And if you're in a tournament atmosphere and your opponents are near the same skill level in battling as you? Well bad team match ups happen, but if they're happening any more than 10% of the time then it's your team that is at fault, not the metagame.

And I KNOW that rain and sun do not destroy well built weather-less teams because I've been using primarily weather-less teams for the past six or more months and I've been doing just fine. It's not like I'm loading up on counters either, and the ones I do use are generally very useful outside of countering the given weather as well. My current team is actually a weather-less stall team and I've actually gotten in the top 100 with it on PS without really breaking a sweat. While this is PS we're talking about, a win/loss ratio of something like 7-1 still goes a long way towards showing that weather can be beaten.

As for Deoxys-D, I've never had much trouble with him. This isn't gen 4, and just having SR and a layer of spikes up does not create a win condition for offensive teams. Not to mention that Deoxys-D is not guaranteed to get that up, not compared to his Uber friend Deoxys-S. Frequently I can keep it from getting any hazards up for more than a few turns as long as I'm playing well and running a spinner. I'd like to point out that spinblocking is harder than ever this generation, with almost every OU spinner having ways of getting past the majority of them, meaning the hazards Deo-D puts up might well not be staying for long unless the team and player using him is VERY good at keeping up pressure. And finally, Deoxys-D does virtually nothing else. It doesn't have the right resistances to be a proper wall and can't attack anything outside of a one off gem boosted move to attempt to remove a spinner. It's dead weight asside from hazards and if those get taken down... you just wasted a hell of a lot of time and a teamslot.

Then Terrakion... there was a time when I thought him suspect, but I was convinced otherwise. I think it was during May or April statistics? I brought it up, and was met with a lot of convincing arguments that eventually won me over. While it is hard to wall there are many ways to check it (even more now that we're in BW2). It's a top tier threat, but hardly broken.

 

[Shining_Latios]

Jimear0, why would you ban individual users that go over the edge? What if they do not go over the edge outside of rain? For example, Tornadus-T's STAB Hurricane is 100% accurate in the rain. Outside of rain? 70%. Now, do you see Tornadus-T on any non-weather teams? Probably not, because of Hurricane's shaky accuracy. Thus, it is not really broken outside of rain. By the way, obviously you can't pack all those Pokemon on the same team, but it doesn't change the fact that rain is so powerful. If you have heavy hitting water-types on a rain team against a non weather team, it's going to give them headaches even if they have something that resists it. Also, what exploits these Pokemon that work well under rain? Rain/Drizzle.

 

[yee]

Just throwing it out there, OU shrunk to 43 mons or something at one point and top 100 with a 7-1 win rate on PS! is about the same accomplishment as logging on to PS!, nothing personal.

 

[undisputed]

Reaching a weatherless metagame would be ideal in my mind. Weather just makes whole strategies too powerful which is something the community tends to overlook because there is no single culprit to blame.

I think the fact that Dugtrio is so popular is very telling. Dugtrio isn't that good a Pokemon to start with. It hasn't seen serious usage since ADV, but it found a niche in this metagame eliminating the other weather abuser. In other words, teams are willing to play at an almost 5 v. 6 disadvantage in an attempt to have their preferred weather condition. Not many people would use Dugtrio in this Metagame if it wasn't proficient at gaining a weather advantage.

Aside from that, I'll throw out a few arguments against Sun and Rain specifically:

Sun - incredibly one dimensional, and anyone can use it. Just think about the countless number of times the same sun team has been posted in the RMT forum. In addition to that, Sun just doesn't require any real skill to play at a high level. It's literally the easiest team archetype to play, ever. I'm not saying US East is bad, but they used a lot of Sun in the WCoP, and everyone knew they were using it. Every player I spoke to made sure to "make their team not sun weak" ... and they still lost to Sun.

Rain - I think rain kind of speaks for itself. It's definitely my favorite team archetype personally since it's really quick and powerful. Tornadus and Tornadus-T absolutely decimate people with Hurricanes, and every water move suddenly becomes powerful regardless of who/what is using it. I also believe Rain has good matchups vs. Sand and Sun due to Super Effective Water attacks, obviously.

I may be alone, but I also believe that Sand is broken too. Sand is already solid vs. Sun and Rain, so if those two were gone, Sand only gets better. It's already one of the "big three" weathers, and if Sun or Rain got better, no one would be happy.

---

I'll move on to my next suspect ideal: Deoxy-D. Honestly as broken as any definition I've seen. It's the cornerstone to a very prominent, formulaic playstyle. The gameplan is well known already: lead with Deoxys-D and get as many hazards as you can. Then just go to town with your sweepers and hope you'll break through the opposing team.

I once lost a Deoxy-D offense vs. Deoxys-D offense match against Stone Cold, and I wasn't happy about it. I thought it was silly that the match came down to who won the turn 1 speed tie. Pokemon should not have a prevalent strategy where it's essentially a one-turn, true 50/50.

---

And finally, I may be the only one, but I think Volt-Turn is extremely detrimental to the metagame. It turns Pokemon matches into huge guessing games. The Volt-Turner can find himself hoping that the opponent doesn't stay in, and the non-Volt-Turner has to decide whether he has the balls to stay in. I remember watching one game during WCoP where both players brought Volt-Turn teams, and during the first couple of moves, you could tell the player that got the Volt-Turning momentum early would win. And they did.

There's already precedence in the Swift Swim complex ban, and I don't think it would be hard to find a compromise regarding the usage of both moves.

 

[Thorhammer]

Just throwing it out there, OU shrunk to 43 mons or something at one point and top 100 with a 7-1 win rate on PS! is about the same accomplishment as logging on to PS!, nothing personal.

And right now, it's 55, while last gen's was 44. (Meloetta-P doesn't count and Gen 4 Rotom-A is one Pokemon.) Sounds like any problems it may have had in the past are fixed now.

Of course, we could also look at the fact that as there has not been a usage-based tier update since BW2 and so many other changes have been implemented, the current tiers are absolutely no reflection of anything in BW2.

 

[TPO3]

How the hell can we be suspecting all pokemon with Sand Stream and not be suspecting Drizzle at the same time? Forgive me if I derped and misread the garchomp thread involving suspecting Sand Stream. I have been known to derp. But anyways

Scizor gets unseated at the #1 spot in statistics for the first time in a long time, by Politoed, and 7 of the top 10 used pokemon benefit from having rain in play. Getting rid of sand stream is just going to give these pokemon a free reign of terror in OU. Sun can't touch rain, Ninetales can't consistently switch in, and the grass-types with chlorophyll and the dragons that get their fire blasts boosted are weak to Water's signature coverage move, Ice Beam. What exactly is sun supposed to do? The only other viable option is hail. Which is completely viable thanks to subroost kyurem. But getting rid of sand and not rain is just going to cause an extreme overcentralization of the metagame. There's what...3 pkmn left in OU that benefit from sand? Terrakion and Tyranitar who get their special defense boosted, and Landorus who gets Sand Force. Any water-type or grass-type left in OU gets a boost from rain. In fact, anything with a water move on it at all gets boosted by rain. Look at Haxorus. This thing gets one water move. Just one. And suddenly with rain, SD Haxorus 2HKO's the metagame with rain-boosted Aqua Tail.

Don't get me wrong. I am glad that you are suspecting sand. However, I think that it's hardly fair to get rid of sand, and not even try Drizzle.

 

[Thorhammer]

Sand Veil, not Sand Stream.

 

[alexwolf]

I had a huge long-ass post talking about Tornadus-T, but then some classic bs happened and it got deleted because i was logged out when i finished it. *&#@#$&

Anyway, imo, he is the only broken mon in the meta right now, because he centralizes OU far too much, which greatly limits diversity. He is the #1 reason that Rain is the most dominant weather in OU, which says a lot. Finally it is one of the few pokes (maybe the only), that can threaten every single playstyle, with just one set (LO with Hurricane, Superpower, U-turn and RD).

 

[Danger Mouse]

As for Deoxys-D, I find that, though it does its job very well, it's not as good at laying hazards as Deoxys-S was. The massive difference in speed counts, and the prominence of scarf Genesect as a lead can make it difficult for Deoxys to get in safely. Despite its decent speed, there are faster taunters out there (anything with Prankster, Aerodactyl, Tornadus-T, etc.) and threats such as scarf Politoed that Deoxys-D can't tank a hit from. In addition to that, there are many viable spinners out there that can easily remove Deoxys' precious hazards, and Deoxys can't hope to beat all of them on its own.
So while I agree that Deoxys-D is very effective as a hazards setter, and might be the best hazard setter in OU right now, he is far from overcentralizing or broken. In fact, his ability to lay hazards is a fantastic deterrent to Volt-Turn, and stuff like Scizor and Genesect in general.

 

[alexwolf]

I just now saw Undisputed's post about Deoxys-D being broken, so here is my answer...

I don't believe that HO match-ups are up to a coinflip, as you are not forced to use Deoxys-D, because there are also other hazard and DS leads for HO teams, mianly Azelf and Espeon. Azelf wins vs Magic Coat-less Deoxys-D, still has SR and Taunt, while also having immense offensive pressence which he can abuse with Ice Punch, Fire Blast, Psychic, and Explosion. Espeon counters Deoxys-D no matter what, as well as setting up fast, un-Tauntable screens for your sweeprs to abuse, as well as having Yawn to prevent set-up and Baton Pass for momentum. Finally if you don't want to lead with one of those 2 pokes to deal with Deoxys-D, you can always lead with Scizor at turn 1, and immediately put the pressure on the opponent. If they use Taunt, while you use Bug Bite, they just lost any hope of hazards being up, and if they used SR as you used SD, then they are in for some serious pain. Or with your Volcarona. And the list goes on.

 

[Jimera0]

Jimear0, why would you ban individual users that go over the edge? What if they do not go over the edge outside of rain? For example, Tornadus-T's STAB Hurricane is 100% accurate in the rain. Outside of rain? 70%. Now, do you see Tornadus-T on any non-weather teams? Probably not, because of Hurricane's shaky accuracy. Thus, it is not really broken outside of rain. By the way, obviously you can't pack all those Pokemon on the same team, but it doesn't change the fact that rain is so powerful. If you have heavy hitting water-types on a rain team against a non weather team, it's going to give them headaches even if they have something that resists it. Also, what exploits these Pokemon that work well under rain? Rain/Drizzle.

Why? Because then I'm banning a single Pokemon instead of an entire play-style. It's not a hard choice for me to make. It'd be different if there were 4 or 5 Pokemon that were broken under it, but the vast majority of people don't think that's the case. Certainly, there are no 4 or 5 we can all agree on.

Arguments that rain TEAMS are, in and of themselves, unfair fall flat to me simply because I have never, at any point in this generation, had so much trouble with rain that I felt it was forcing me into a corner. This includes at the the start of my experience with BW, where I might as well have been a newbie considering how long I had been gone from the competitive scene and all the new stuff introduced in generation V. It's hard to sympathize with an opinion so foreign to me.

Weather is a part of generation V. This is not Generation IV, and I can't help but to think that people striving for a weatherless metagame are just reaching to have Gen IV with new Pokemon. The simple fact is that it's never been like that. Every generation has brought in not just new Pokemon, but new a whole new competitive environment. Generation II brought in entry hazards, Generation III brought in abilities, Generation IV brought in Stealth Rock and the physical special split. Generation V has brought in permanent weather conditions (fully I mean. Obviously Hail and Sandstorm were around before). You're not going to win playing as you would in generation IV, just as in generation IV you would not have won if you were playing like it was generation III. You have to adapt to change. Step out of your comfort zone and learn a new thing. I feel like some of us are still stuck in the past.

Please note that I'm not saying everyone should think the way I do. But I'd weep to see so much of what makes this generation special vanish because some people just don't want to adjust to it. I like the game the way it is, with all its competing and varied strategies, each one providing a unique but fair challenge to overcome.

 

[Shining_Latios]

Rain is not even a playstyle to begin with. Rain is nothing more than a boost to different playstyles since it is so versatile. I would also like to mention that wouldn't it be more logical to ban drizzle in general rather than a single Pokemon who is not even broken outside of rain? Also, it's not that we don't want to adjust to the metagame, but because wins or losses are decided by the pure team matchup is pretty bad.