BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Myzozoa]

Thirdly, Rotom-H is being used as a check towards GeneSun, a common version of the standard Sun team. Sure, Genesect features on the team, but thats not the point, Rotom-H is a simple, "niche" pokemon thats being used to counter random shit. This happens. Just look at Gecs BW1 team that uses fucking Grumpig to check sun teams, or the Lanturn fad a few pages back. These niche pokemon see use in OU somtimes because they are good in the current metagame, and heck, seeing a few niche pokemon in OU I don't see as a bad thing, in fact I think the Dark Horse challenge is encouraging this stuff, but regardless, its just people adapting to the metagame as a whole, I still don't see where you are getting this "Genesect is broken because of Rotom-H seeing more that 1% usage" argument on. Heck, Princess Brii was running Golurk to check Terrakion on his Hail Team, Doom and I ran Claydol on our sun teams to check Terrakion, do we call Terrakion broken too?

Even if this wasn't 100% bullshit, it is 100% irrelevant if you are arguing that genesect should stay in OU. Your argument is basically that Genesect can be checked by random pokemon. So can Kyogre (Shedinja m8). Rotom-h is not good when every team has Tyranitar, SR, Politoed, Heatran, and many teams have not one, but two of these. Simple usage stats tell us that Rotom-h isn't even close to being a niche pokemon in OU, and while you may like him and use him as much as you want, realize that your perspective of Genesect is skewed by the extremes you've taken to not be wrecked by it (make no mistake, running Rotom-h is an extreme measure). The rest of us who don't want to run 3 separate checks to Genesect have had different experiences.

 

[StairFall]

I know it isn't fair of me to say but I've had absolutely zero problem with any genesect variant. None of them ever do any substantial damage and simply u-turn in and out futilely never using its special attacks. It's easily killed by one of the fire moves I pack even in rain and let me tell you I am so glad chomp is back down in OU. He looses 29% of his health plus rocks when he tries to u-turn on another pokemon for momentum. He isn't unmanageable, just not conventionally counterable.

 

[Roie]

Even if this wasn't 100% bullshit, it is 100% irrelevant if you are arguing that genesect should stay in OU. Your argument is basically that Genesect can be checked by random pokemon. So can Kyogre (Shedinja m8). Rotom-h is not good when every team has Tyranitar, SR, Politoed, Heatran, and many teams have not one, but two of these. Simple usage stats tell us that Rotom-h isn't even close to being a niche pokemon in OU, and while you may like him and use him as much as you want, realize that your perspective of Genesect is skewed by the extremes you've taken to not be wrecked by it (make no mistake, running Rotom-h is an extreme measure). The rest of us who don't want to run 3 separate checks to Genesect have had different experiences.

If a pokemon is powerful and you have to use random pokemon to check him, then the current metagame becomes "The actual problem with pokemon x isn't that he's strong, it is that he forces you to make poor team choices." That is completely different from overcentralizing, as in, requiring him to be on 100% of viable teams. Genesect shouldn't even be considered for banning.

For example, I think Steelix is good at checking Kyurem-B so Kyurem-B should be OU. If all viable teams become Steelix + Kyurem-B, then Kyurem-B should be banned. If it is anything different (including Kyurem-B teams and steelix teams being powerful), Kyurem-B is not overcentralizing and therefore just "powerful". Not ban worthy.

 

[superbadd]

If a pokemon is powerful and you have to use random pokemon to check him, then the current metagame becomes "The actual problem with pokemon x isn't that he's strong, it is that he forces you to make poor team choices." That is completely different from overcentralizing, as in, requiring him to be on 100% of viable teams. Genesect shouldn't even be considered for banning.

That's exactly what overcentralizing is. When you have to use a pokemon that has hardly any use outside of checking threat x, than there's something wrong with threat x. You shouldn't have to be scrapping the bottom of the barrel to check/counter something. That's like using herracross on every team to counter darkrai. For all of who are saying that genesect is not broken, then let it be a suspect. If you're so sure nothing is wrong with it, then you have nothing to worry about when it's at the chopping block.

 

[Thorhammer]

If it works, it's not the bottom of the barrel.

 

[superbadd]

You can say the same about lanturn countering tornadus-t. No one would normally use lanturn in ou if tornadus didn't exist. Niche counters(that have no use doing anything else) out of no were should not develop in a healthy metagame.

 

[StairFall]

By that definition Rain should be banned because in BW1 it sent gadtrodon from NU to OU as a niche counter to rain. Genesect isn't a problem, if new niches develop because of it then the metagame is changing, not falling apart.

 

[Roie]

I think superbadd is correct for ladder play only, and that's fine. My argument I made a few posts ago would force my mentality of how a competitive scene for a game should work down everyone's throats - on a community that has kind of avoided that. Since this metagame evolved from ladder play and bans based on ladder play, for the good of ladder play, I think genesect should be suspect yes.

 

[superbadd]

By that definition Rain should be banned because in BW1 it sent gadtrodon from NU to OU as a niche counter to rain. Genesect isn't a problem, if new niches develop because of it then the metagame is changing, not falling apart.

Rain accounts for 20-30 different Pokemon, Gastrodon shot up because it was good against a PLAYSTYLE not just one pokemon, it had a variety of uses against multiple mons. If things like rotom-h go ou for the sole purpose of countering genesect, that's just way too much.

 

[ginganinja]

@Myzozoa

I don't even run Rotom-H myself (I have to test it for QC when im not in the middle of my exam period), im not hyping him, or taking extreme lengths to counter Genesect, I just deal with it like I would any other pokemon. My argument was poorly constructed in hindsight, so I apologise for that, (its what I get for rushing a post). I was actually failing miserably to explain that some randoms using Rotom-H to counter Genesect doesn't instantly mean Genesect is broken. I actually agree with Lavos Spawn, if more people actually used Genesect + Dugtrio (and not just on sun, it works well on Rain as well) I would prolly have a harder time of it. I have no problems with it being suspected at all, but I don't think its broken anyway so meh.

 

[Thorhammer]

You can say the same about lanturn countering tornadus-t. No one would normally use lanturn in ou if tornadus didn't exist. Niche counters(that have no use doing anything else) out of no were should not develop in a healthy metagame.

You use Pokemon because of their performance in the existing metagame. If they work, they work, no matter how many Pokemon are the direct cause.

 

[UltiMario]

The argument may hold true if Lanturn was the only thing in the metagame that could counter Tornadus-T, or in the more relevant case Rotom-H was the only thing in the metagame that could even hope to compete against Genesun.

But that is not even close to the reality.

You don't have to use Shitty Niche Pokemon to beat strats unless you're so cramped for room on a team that you desperately need to fit a check to a playstyle in one Pokemon, which is something that will normally get you killed if you try.

Good team synergy and smart play will get you farther than using Rotom-H every day of the week.

 

[Thorhammer]

And the result is, if you are using Lanturn or Rotom-H, it's because of other options they have as well.

 

[StairFall]

Think of it like Golurk and Terrakion. Despite being the absolute best and hardest terrakion counterGolurk is NU because he hardly does anything outside of that. There's no reason to go running for him even though terrakion's counters in OU are a lot shakier. Rotom-H is the absolute best genesect counter, but that's really his only niche and why he's UU. He isn't the only one and there are plenty of them in OU. Being the best counter=/= being the only counter.

 

[bubbly]

Rotom-H is getting more use than it deserves mainly because a lot of the viable checks / semi-reliable counters to Genesect are getting ignored.

Anyway though, Genesect needs to be banned because it's just unhealthy for the metagame, not because the metagame doesn't have the tools to deal with it (and like Lavos said, the meta is going to have to shift even further if GeneDug becomes more common; likewise if people actually start using EBelt and CB / CSpecs). I don't have the usage stats in front of me but it feels like above 1500 on PO, 80%+ of teams use Genesect. Look at DW OU; 90% of the successful RMT's I've seen from that tier used Genesect. The thing about Genesect is that it's simply so eminently useable that, despite not being inherently broken, it's ruining the metagame through its popularity.

So yeah I kind of want to include a utility / useability clause in the old ban-worthy guidelines. If something is so effective at what it does, like Gene, that it massively centralises the metagame (by replacing everything in and around it's niche), it should be tested. This is ignoring the possibility that it should be banned because it's massively unpredictable and essentially uncounterable.

 

[StairFall]

Really? That's where we're going with this? It isn't broken but it's so good that most teams have it and is therefore bad? That's just the worst logic. Genesect hasn't hurt the metagame at all. He's popular because he's good at what he does. He's easily beatable with the right support. You can't ban him simply because of how many teams he's on, many if he had only 1/2 counters you could but any decent defensive core can where him down and send in a faster pokemon to clean him up.

Also does it occur to anyone he's essentially Evire except good?

 

[bubbly]

Okay, you can't lecture me for lacking logic and then present multiple unsubstantiated and imo completely wrong opinions as fact.

1. Hasn't hurt the metagame at all.

Okay...so the fundamental thing we want from the metagame is diversity, yes? If stuff is completely broken, it lowers diversity because it forces you to use the few available checks etc. And yet, 99% of teams fall within 6 archetypes, all of which use the same small set of pokemon. Nearly every bloody team I've seen today was based around Genesect + a hard Heatran counter (Dugtrio on Sun and Rain, Terrakion etc on Sand). Stall is widely acknowledged to be, if not dead, then barely viable and definitely on the way out.There is NO diversity any more.

2. Easily beatable with the right support.

No. You can't beat Genesect unless your entire team doesn't care about it, in which case, your team is awful. The usually touted way is to get hazards and stop the opponent getting hazards; and yet we live in a meta in which SR + Taunt Terrakion, Mental Herb Deoxys-D and co are everywhere, and correspondingly, Rapid Spinners and Magic Bounce are also everywhere. Genesect's momentum based strategy makes it even harder to control the hazards on both sides of the field, at least without taking massive risks. What's the solution as a teambuilder? Yeah, sure, use Aerodactyl or something (lol - I should also mention that most of the faster anti-anti-leads, like Azelf, are outsped and brought to Sash by Genesect). How do you handle the abundant Rapid Spinners? Most of the time, the best answer is to use Genesect on another cookie cutter offense team, = still less diversity.

3. Any decent defensive core can wear him down and then use a faster mon to clean him up.

Again, defensive cores are harder than ever to use successfully in this metagame. I just talked about how hard it is to keep hazards against Gene-offense. Defensive teams, or even defensive cores within a team, have an even harder time of it; they can't afford to take a risk (e.g. predicting Scarf Gene's move) because if they mispredict they get swept. And the idea of a faster pokemon "cleaning it up"? First of all, even being able to bring a pokemon into Genesect and then be able to hit it is extremely rare, since most of the time it's just U-turning. Second, it can just switch; if you're outspeeding Scarf Gene, you must also be Scarfed, therefore unless you predict like a boss (which isn't a reliable strategy) you're turning yourself into setup fodder. Finally, Scarfed Mons which outspeed Genesect aren't common and are becoming less common because people just use their own Genesect instead.

 

[Bent1ey]

Really? That's where we're going with this? It isn't broken but it's so good that most teams have it and is therefore bad?

Arguably this is a threat to diversity since a pokemon used everywhere for everything, even if not "broken", is still reshaping the metagame around it. Also, something doesn't need to be impossible to counter to be undesireable, being hindered for running anything else is as bad an outcome as just being too strong, because it's essentially the same thing except that it doesn't come to a simple offensive role of plowing through the enemies.

Again, I'm not claiming that there is a problem with Genesect, but being so good that you're in every team should be seen as something bad because a meta of Genesect + 5 is absurd.

 

[Lavos]

After reading some of the arguments arguing vehemently both for and against Genesect's brokenness (yes that's a word), I'm forced to conclude that the former's arguments are much stronger and much more evidenced than the latter's. Myzozoa and bubbly in particular do a great job of showing how Genesect really does not have a single reliable counter that's not going to get demolished by common partners such as Dugtrio and Politoed (by that I mean Rain teams as a whole). Sure there's random stuff like Rotom-H that resists all of Genesect's most common moves, but using Rotom-H to check Genesect is such a horrible waste in general because Rotom-H is pure trash in OU outside of that single function. If you bring a Rotom-H and the opponent's team lacks Genesect, congratulations, you just essentially brought 5 Pokemon and 1 death fodder. Shed Shell Heatran gets worn down by hazards too easily, and the RestTalk set isn't of much quality especially considering it's walled hardcore by Politoed and opposing Heatran alike, plus it lacks turn-by-turn recovery. The issue with the set is that you're bringing it into a Genesect U-Turn, so instead of facing Genesect, your Heatran will now be staring a sure check/counter in the face. Any other Genesect counters? No, absolutely none, because since Genesect's primary move is U-Turn, even the idea of having a true "counter" is absurd.

 

[alexwolf]

Just posting to say that Rotom-H is not pure trash outside of countering Genesect. With a specially defensive spread it counters Tornadus-T, Genesect, Venusaur, Victreebel, Heatran, Jolteon, Ninetales (don't laugh many rain teams have trouble playing against Sunny Day Ninetales) and special Landorus-T, and checks very well most Thundurus-T, Volcarona and Celebi (needs T-Wave to cripple it back).

Whenever i use SpD Rotom-H on my team i either have Magic Bounce support, or Rapid Spin support plus one or two mons that can prevent hazards with one way or another (Taunt, offensive pressure, etc), so as long as i don't fuck up it is very difficult for the opponent to set hazards up.

My real problem with Rotom-H is his moveslot syndrome. He needs Volt-Switch / Overheat / WoW / T-Wave / HP Ice / Pain Split, but he can only fit 4 of those, which means that some threats you wall, will be able to overpower you because you can do nothing back to them. For example if i use a set of VS / Overheat / T-Wave / PS, then Thundurus-T can muscle past me in the rain, as Overheat does next to nothing.

But i agree that the number one reason to use Rotom-H right now is to counter Genesect, and outside of this he is really mediocre, even though he checks many pokes, because of SR weakness and lack of reliable recovery...

 

[Nachos]

Any other Genesect counters? No, absolutely none, because since Genesect's primary move is U-Turn, even the idea of having a true "counter" is absurd.

By that logic we should have banned Scizor a long time ago seeing as all it does is U-turn with its good defense and resistances, and it's counters such as Gyarados are defeated by Rotom. Banning something on the basis of "it U-turns into a counter" is ridiculous as we've been dealing with that since 2008.

The idea of a counter for everything is ancient. There was a craze to ban Latios and Dragonite in early BW1, but people started to cope and only a very small minority would call for their banning now. We're playing in a metagame where you can 2HKO something effortlessly with your STAB move. On a note to some DPP veterans, I don't get why you're trying to create a neo-DPP (which is a vibe I'm sort of getting), we're so far beyond that that unless we ban half the tier, we're still going to have a very offensive metagame. Even BW1 at this point feels slow.

With regard to the Rotom-H discussion, I think we should stop discussing Pokemon that are a gimmick and nothing else. Here is what is beating Genesect: hazards (the best option due to constant U-turning), Heatran and Terrakion (which you obviously dont send out early if they have a Dugtrio), and revenge killers (scarf versions are opposing scarf terrakion/keldeo, ebelt versions are your pick of anything above 99 speed). People are obsessed with number 1 for a variety of reasons and 3 will probably not change any time soon (we're actually playing in a metagame where 3 scarfers is very viable lol), so I see Genesect as manageable for the time being.

Genesect + Dugtrio is just a fucking combination thats seeing success, and Shed SHell Heatran is a result of people adapting to this overused combination and shutting it down.

I agree, this is pokemon 101.

 

[tehy]

You know, i used lefties tran before, and i use shed shell tran now, and while i find that i might occasionally wish for lefties tran back, it's not that much of a difference. Shed shell tran has great utility-it's a status aborber, it can lure in trappers other than dugtrio and stomp them, and it can still do a lot of what heatran used to.

I also think that a lot of people are missing a point-using shed shell tran is awesome;the reveal is just so much fun. Anyone who's ever used shed shell skarm against dragmag teams knows what i'm talking about, but it's even better because magnezone can switch into skarmory and dragons can do way more than genesect and eq-less venu to it.

Edit: Alk knows what im talking about, it's awesome. i always had Spdef hippow for rocks-setting. I occasionally miss protect for scouting and earth power for THE POWER OF THE EARTH!!!, but in general it's not that big a deal.

 

[alkinesthetase]

i really miss lefties on my shed shell tran, just like i miss lefties on my shed shell skarm and on my chansey (the disadvantage shows like crazy if you go up against a hail team >_>) but the trade off is generally worth it lest my stall teams become overly weak to dragmag/sectrio. if restalk wasn't so slow to work with in bw, i could live with how unreliable it can be. really though the thing i miss most on shed shell restalk tran is stealth rock - it's one of the best setters in the game, and using up two slots for restalk means someone else on your team has to carry it. i would summarize my opinion on restalk heatran as "it sucks, but it's still a fairly usable heatran, and besides necessity is the mother of all invention".

i agree though, the reveal is priceless - you can just imagine the look on your opponent's face as if they thought the game was over and you just stole it away from them

 

[NoUserName]

Don't fully compare Skarm or Chansey with Heatran, both Skarm and Chansey/Blissey have instant recovery, which helps its lack of Lefties. However Heatran don't, it would be amazing however, and Rest is worse this gen.

 

[alexwolf]

It is funny how things change... Almost every good player back in BW1 would tell you that RestTalk ''whatever'' except from a very few cases, sucks because of the new sleep mechanics. Now i hear some good players saying that people need to adapt to the Genesect + Dugtrio combo by running Shed Shell RestTalk Heatran and a small smile appears in my face... The very same people that used to say how bad SleepTalk is in this gen are now advising others to use such a poke without even Lefties recovery. If this is not an extreme case of adaption then i don't know what is. Skarmory, Amoonguss, and Slwobro can run Shed Shell because they have reliable recovery, unlike Heatran. But Heatran has to lose its item, and use one of the most unreliable and bad strategies in the game, RestTalk, to beat a single threat, that happens to work amazingly well with another poke. We are really starting to lose the sense of logic here.