NU Viability Ranking

[Audiosurfer]

I've only been playing NU for a little while, but I am currently running a Sunny Day team and I must say that Liepard, Volbeat, and Illumise ( I suppose) should move up to B rank. I can saftely say that there are no better weather inducers in NU. I've found Regirock to be surprising poor (It can't put up Stealth Rock AND set up Sunny day, it's too much for it.) In such an offensive team style as Sunny day, it is vital to get up Sun ASAP obviously and these pranksters are the best options for doing so. I assume that when people think of Volbeat they think of Tail Glow passing (which I'd admit it probably belongs in C rank for that role) and Liepard in regard to those silly swagger / thunder wave / foul play sets, but they are unrivaled when it comes to weather set up.

Volbeat / Illumise and Liepard are equal in my eyes in that they both have qualities that outshine another. First of all, they both have encore and access to Sunny day and Rain Dance. Both have Thunder Wave and U-turn. This alone makes them incredibly similar.

Liepard's advantages include access to taunt, which isn't that useful when you have encore, but it does help against a few specific pokemon like hazard setters. It also has a different typing which allow it to better handle certain threats. It especially comes in handy when facing Haunter, Musharna, and Driftblim which otherwise give Sunny day teams some trouble. Liepard is pretty much a full stop to both of them. This is important because Driftblim can lay the hurt on Sunny day teams if played correctly. It is also neutral to stealth rock which helps but liepard probably won't be coming in that often because 1 or 2 rounds of Sun/Rain is really all the team needs.

Now what Volbeat and Illumise have over Lieprad include Roost, which is huge because it allows it to encore a weak attack or status move / hazard and then heal. Stealth Rock is bad for it, but it can heal off the damage. They can also afford to invest in defenses unlike Liepard, who really needs speed investment, and makes them surprisingly resilient. Volbeat and Illumise are more durable than Liepard alone, yet they complement each other well.

Overall, Liepard is suited to typical Sunny day teams better because it emlinmates those threats I outlined which is huge. Also, the best sun sweepers have a weakness to a resistance or immunity to Liepard, which means it can easily encore and set up Sunny day. For exmaple, Liepard can encore Shadow Balls / Sucker Punches / Shadow Sneaks etc. used against Exeggutor, and Psychics used against Victreebel, making it rather easy to keep up Sun.

Although I can't speak much for Rain, Illumise/Volbeat probably fare better in Rain Dance teams because they survive Fire moves better and have Bug STAB for the Grass types like Ludicolo, but I use Volbeat on Sunny day and works just fine. They require almost no support whatsoever, you just obviously need things to abuse the weather. I think they both belong in B rank.

C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

This describes all the pokemon you listed. While they all occupy a niche of being great weather setters, none of them serve much use outside of that and all have notable flaws that can be taken advantage of. They all also require significant support, since the only way they're effective is on full-on weather teams. So yeah, Illumise/Volbeat/Liepard are all fine in C rank. Being good supporters for one playstyle (which isn't even used all that much to begin with) =/= being worthy of being moved up a whole rank.

EDIT: Also, don't really play weather teams but from experience Illumise/Volbeat are meant to be played as more suicide/emergency weather setters, meant to get off a quick Sunny Day/Rain Dance, so having Roost really isn't much of an edge over Liepard, especially with their poor defensive stats. Also, 252 SpAtk Liepard will 2HKO Specs Exeggutor (even with SR) while it can OHKO guaranteed with Leaf Storm, so I wouldnt say it gets rid of Exeggutor.

 

[elchupo]

Cinccino's primary faults are that it's weak and cannot break through many physical walls without excessive support. Zangoose has no such faults, as it shreds through the entire tier with Guts-boosted Facade and excellent coverage. Armaldo is actually one of the few mons that can tank a hit from it and retaliate. In all honesty, Protect is merely a crutch for players who cannot maneuver Zangoose into the fray to activate its Orb. Zangoose doesn't need to run multiple sets to be effective, either (and as for the comparision, I really wouldn't say that Cinccino is unpredictable, with a grand total of 5 viable moves and 4 of them being on every single set..). In high-level play, Zangoose's only fault is that it is frail. That's it.



I would not use ladder experience against Zangoose as an argument against it, to be honest. Most ladder players using Zangoose that I have faced have been absolutely atrocious with it.

Let me just preface this by saying that I'm not arguing for Cinccino to be anything other than what tier it is, I'm simply using it to contrast against Zangoose, who I believe shouldn't be S- rank.

I'm curious to see what walls Zangoose shreds through that Cinccino doesn't, as they appear to have very similar checks and counters. Let's take a look at CB Cinccino vs +1 Zangoose (both are 252+ Attack for this purpose).

Vs 252/252+ Musharna- Both 2HKO with Tail Slap/ Facade respectively.
Vs 252/252+ Regirock- Both 2HKO with Bullet Seed/ CC respectively.
Vs 252/252+ Amoongus- Both 2HKO with Tail Slap/ Facade respectively.
Vs 252/252+ Alomomola- Both 2HKO with Bullet Seed/ Facade respectively.
Vs 252/252+ Bastiodon/Probopass- Zangoose murders these with CC whereas Cinccino is stopped dead, the best it being able to do is 3HKO with Bullet Seed.
Vs 252/252+ Armaldo- Stops Zangoose dead, only being able to 3HKO with Facade. Cinccino can OHKO with Rock Blast if SR are down.

I could keep going. Granted, there are things that check Cinccino that don't check Zangoose, but the opposite is also true. Pretty much every mention of Zangoose in this tier prior to mine is about X Pokemon being able to stand up to Zangoose.

Also, Let me just say that your talk of "high level play" as well as the fact that you deem most Zangoose you've seen on the ladder as atrocious (despite the fact that nearly every Zangoose set is the exact same and can be played only one way) seems like a contradiction to the very definition of the S rank tier he's in.

S rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the NU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

A Pokemon that can't be used by the majority of the tier effectively and is only properly mastered by the "high level" players of said tier doesn't sound like a "Low Risk, High Reward" Pokemon to me, it sounds like a Pokemon that needs a high level of skill of be used correctly, which again, is evidenced by the fact that the majority of Zangoose seen on the tier fail to do anything that merits getting an S-rank.

Further, Protect is hardly a "crutch". Every single other Orb user as well as the likes of Yanmega commonly run Protect, and it's widely considered one of the best moves in the game. Why is it considered a crutch when it applies to Zangoose? To justify the mindset that Zangoose doesn't actually suffer from 4 Moveslot syndrome, it's just that, again, the majority of the ladder players are too terrible to use Zangoose correctly.

There's a reason why Cinccino is the most used Pokemon in the tier. It is fast, it hits incredibly hard, and it is very easy to use. And people can play the "The tier is clogged with N00bs, skewing the usage stats!!1" card all they like, but is NU the only tier where the most used Pokemon isn't the best? Doesn't every tier have N00bs? I think there's an attitude of "N00bs use Cinccino! Ultra Talented players use Zangoose!" that pervades this subforum and has led to Cinccino being devalued beyond it's merit and Zangoose elevated above it's merit as a result.

I think it should be moved to A Rank.

 

[ium]

I'm curious to see what walls Zangoose shreds through that Cinccino doesn't, as they appear to have very similar checks and counters. Let's take a look at CB Cinccino vs +1 Zangoose (both are 252+ Attack for this purpose).

so you're basically using choice band cinccino as a means of comparison. here's the thing though: it's choice band and it's with moves that are easily resisted (normal, grass, rock). what this says about cinccino is that it's fairly weak without the choice band and it must restrict itself to being locked into one move that may result in being forced out if the user predicts incorrectly. then cinccino gets forced out, has to come back in later and take hazards damage; this process may repeat, and so on. on the other hand, zangoose can afford a misprediction against a switch-in in many more cases than cinccino and can switch up moves. even if the opponents try to switch around with resistances to toxic stall, they are only wearing down their own team and can easily screw up their predictions.

Further, Protect is hardly a "crutch". Every single other Orb user as well as the likes of Yanmega commonly run Protect, and it's widely considered one of the best moves in the game. Why is it considered a crutch when it applies to Zangoose? To justify the mindset that Zangoose doesn't actually suffer from 4 Moveslot syndrome, it's just that, again, the majority of the ladder players are too terrible to use Zangoose correctly.

it's because zangoose doesn't necessarily need protect to activate its orb. it has decent speed and quick attack to revenge kill something. and there are many common u-turn and volt switch users in the tier (some even slow enough to get it in safely). there's also double switching. i even use my amoonguss as a pivot by using spore on something then switching immediately to zangoose. this is a very similar case with swellow who can just utilize quick attack instead of protect. it's just not that necessary when the other moves grant more utility.

There's a reason why Cinccino is the most used Pokemon in the tier. It is fast, it hits incredibly hard, and it is very easy to use. And people can play the "The tier is clogged with N00bs, skewing the usage stats!!1" card all they like, but is NU the only tier where the most used Pokemon isn't the best? Doesn't every tier have N00bs? I think there's an attitude of "N00bs use Cinccino! Ultra Talented players use Zangoose!" that pervades this subforum and has led to Cinccino being devalued beyond it's merit and Zangoose elevated above it's merit as a result.

this is just an extremely inflated exaggeration. nobody said cinccino was horrible. it's often dismissed because of its ability to be checked fairly easily. cinccino is more susceptible to priority than zangoose is and this is due to cinccino not having a priority move on its own. it fails to do acceptable damage without a boosting item of sorts (these being choice band and life orb). each have their own repercussions and make cinccino easier to wear down as a result. cinccino is not bad by any means, but it's just inferior.

p.s. zeb stop having a constant hard-on for zangoose.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

You know what else is bulky as fuck, can sweep, and actually help your team if you really want to? Musharna, it also gets moonlight and heal bell to be even harder to kill. And even audino is better for support roles than regigigas, and Audino is not even good.

I never said it was better than other things. Just if you're using Regigigas, don't use it as a sweeper. I don't know why most people try to use it like that. It's not going to survive 5 turns or whatever (and if it does, chances are your opponent has gotten themselves up to +6 attack with a sub up, or something ridiculous), but what it CAN do is take a hit easily and status the switch-in or whatever, so that's how it should be used imo.

 

[Audiosurfer]

I never said it was better than other things. Just if you're using Regigigas, don't use it as a sweeper. I don't know why most people try to use it like that. It's not going to survive 5 turns or whatever (and if it does, chances are your opponent has gotten themselves up to +6 attack with a sub up, or something ridiculous), but what it CAN do is take a hit easily and status the switch-in or whatever, so that's how it should be used imo.

Honestly this isn't enough to justify it being in anything other than E. You couldn't even argue that this is enough of a niche to be D tier really, since plenty of mons can cripple stuff with status, and as TropiOUs pointed out, there are plenty of pokemon that do that better than Regigigas as well.

 

[Shouting]

C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

This describes all the pokemon you listed. While they all occupy a niche of being great weather setters, none of them serve much use outside of that and all have notable flaws that can be taken advantage of. They all also require significant support, since the only way they're effective is on full-on weather teams. So yeah, Illumise/Volbeat/Liepard are all fine in C rank. Being good supporters for one playstyle (which isn't even used all that much to begin with) =/= being worthy of being moved up a whole rank.

EDIT: Also, don't really play weather teams but from experience Illumise/Volbeat are meant to be played as more suicide/emergency weather setters, meant to get off a quick Sunny Day/Rain Dance, so having Roost really isn't much of an edge over Liepard, especially with their poor defensive stats. Also, 252 SpAtk Liepard will 2HKO Specs Exeggutor (even with SR) while it can OHKO guaranteed with Leaf Storm, so I wouldnt say it gets rid of Exeggutor.

Liepard, Volbeat, and Illumise have no flaws really when it comes to weather set up at all. Saying that they need support because they only set up weather is like saying Dual Screeners are "supported" by sweepers and this isn't true at all. They provide support - they don't need support (or arguably, very little) to function.

Also, C rank says that they have notable flaws that prevent them from being effective and as I stated this isn't true, it's the exact opposite in that they are unrivaled and no one in NU can compete in setting up weather. It also says that they have competition with more commonly used pokemon, but the really only competition they have is among themselves.

Play style really shouldn't keep a pokemon from moving up / moving down. Just because weather is uncommon doesn't mean that Volbeat and friends shouldn't move up. Saying that a potent dual screener shouldn't move up because hyper offense is so uncommon or keeping the best spike stacker from rising because stall is dead doesn't really make sense; play style doesn't affect the pokemon's viability, and doesn't change it's performance in that particular niche.

Also, Eggy really isn't a problem for Sun because it's weak to Fire and Poison moves, and some even run Harvest (not sure why though). Foul Play is generally better on Liepard anyway because you don't have to invest in offense.

 

[Raseri]

Why is Mr. Mime B? It's only niche is on baton pass.

Comparing the definition of C and B


B tier:

Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the NU metagame.

Mr Mime isn't great at all, it just has a niche.

C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

This sounds like Mr Mime to me. It has a notable niche(beating the rare roar mon, there is Bastiodon and ??? I know im forgetting something obvious). It's silly that Mr Mime is in b tier, when Mawile, also pivotal to baton pass teams, something that is useful outside of them, is in C tier.


Mr Mime for C tier lgi.

 

[Shuckleking87]

Hey, where is everyone's fan favorite (besides shuckle) Raticate? I would say he deserves to be as high as C tier, but D is suitable. He can run moves such as facade, sucker punch, u-turn, reversal, wild charge, bite, zen headbutt and protect and swords dance (though it really is too frail to use that last move). He can also run guts or hustle, whether you prefer residual damage or risk missing. Yes, it is not as fast or as strong as swellow and is not susceptible to spikes, but raticate does not take as much stealth rock damage and has a move to hit rock and steel types although it is unreliable. Yes, it does not have the attack stat of zangoose, but it has the speed to outpace and can set momentum with u-turn. It also outspeeds the somewhat common haunter, though it will only do good with bite/ non sub haunters. it also does not have the speed and high bp moves of cinccino, but it has priority. Raticate also has priority and u-turn that quick feet ursaring would maul someone for. Yes, it is not that great and some of these previous statements are not true depending on what moves you use, but I think raticate deserves to at least be on the list.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Also, C rank says that they have notable flaws that prevent them from being effective and as I stated this isn't true, it's the exact opposite in that they are unrivaled and no one in NU can compete in setting up weather. It also says that they have competition with more commonly used pokemon, but the really only competition they have is among themselves.

Basically I'll just crossapply what Raseri was saying about Mr. Mime, because it applies here too and was the argument I was making against having them in B Rank. You didn't prove that they're great in the NU metagame and are thus worthy of a B rank, you just proved that they have a notable niche. Since weather setting is really the only reason to use Volbeat/Illumise/Liepard, this definitely qualifies them for C status, as they're not great in the NU metagame, they just have a notable niche. (And no, being great at that niche =/= being great in the meta as a whole since they're useless outside of that niche)
EDIT: Whoops, misread it. You said Liepard could also take out opposing sun sweepers, not naming Eggy as a threat to sun. Either way it still doesnt beat Eggy though.

 

[Tofu]

Liepard, Volbeat, and Illumise have no flaws really when it comes to weather set up at all. Saying that they need support because they only set up weather is like saying Dual Screeners are "supported" by sweepers and this isn't true at all. They provide support - they don't need support (or arguably, very little) to function.

Also, C rank says that they have notable flaws that prevent them from being effective and as I stated this isn't true, it's the exact opposite in that they are unrivaled and no one in NU can compete in setting up weather. It also says that they have competition with more commonly used pokemon, but the really only competition they have is among themselves.

Play style really shouldn't keep a pokemon from moving up / moving down. Just because weather is uncommon doesn't mean that Volbeat and friends shouldn't move up. Saying that a potent dual screener shouldn't move up because hyper offense is so uncommon or keeping the best spike stacker from rising because stall is dead doesn't really make sense; play style doesn't affect the pokemon's viability, and doesn't change it's performance in that particular niche.

Also, Eggy really isn't a problem for Sun because it's weak to Fire and Poison moves, and some even run Harvest (not sure why though). Foul Play is generally better on Liepard anyway because you don't have to invest in offense.

I'm with audio on this. While they are effective in setting up weather there's very little outside of that niche they can do. They in no way are capable of abusing the weather.

As for dual screeners and spike layers, i don't see how they are held back, both garbodor and gardevoir are A teir and capable of supporting a majority of teams, whereas as illumise and leopard will be of little use outside of weather teams, definitely not deserving enough of anything above C tier.

I don't believe they belong in tier B alongside the likes of swellow, missy, alomola etc.

 

[jake]

Let me just preface this by saying that I'm not arguing for Cinccino to be anything other than what tier it is, I'm simply using it to contrast against Zangoose, who I believe shouldn't be S- rank.

I'm curious to see what walls Zangoose shreds through that Cinccino doesn't, as they appear to have very similar checks and counters. Let's take a look at CB Cinccino vs +1 Zangoose (both are 252+ Attack for this purpose).

Vs 252/252+ Musharna- Both 2HKO with Tail Slap/ Facade respectively.
Vs 252/252+ Regirock- Both 2HKO with Bullet Seed/ CC respectively.
Vs 252/252+ Amoongus- Both 2HKO with Tail Slap/ Facade respectively.
Vs 252/252+ Alomomola- Both 2HKO with Bullet Seed/ Facade respectively.
Vs 252/252+ Bastiodon/Probopass- Zangoose murders these with CC whereas Cinccino is stopped dead, the best it being able to do is 3HKO with Bullet Seed.
Vs 252/252+ Armaldo- Stops Zangoose dead, only being able to 3HKO with Facade. Cinccino can OHKO with Rock Blast if SR are down.

I could keep going. Granted, there are things that check Cinccino that don't check Zangoose, but the opposite is also true. Pretty much every mention of Zangoose in this tier prior to mine is about X Pokemon being able to stand up to Zangoose.

aight so let's take a step back here for like just one second. while cb cinccino is comparable to zangoose in power during 1 vs 1 situations, there's absolutely a difference in actual game play and it hinges on the fact that cinccino has to lock itself into a move that will have pretty bad neutral coverage to attain the power of zangoose (meaning something can just as easily come in to take the resisted move), and if it doesn't lock itself in it lacks the power to do anything to defensive cores without significant support. this is especially noticeable when facing down incredibly common cores like alomoonguss esp if paired with a normal resist, which zangoose can actually breeze through if it times the close combat right. if it doesn't, then it can certainly just come back in later and do the same thing with minimal risk.

that's the key difference between cincy and zangoose. when you use zangoose, you don't risk very much at all, as mispredictions can quickly be dealt with by hitting right next time. with cincy, you either get to be weak and thus more likely to take unnecessary damage after failing to KO something, or you lock yourself into a move and hope that you guess right (which isn't always the case, since alomomola has protect and quite a few other mons carry it for stuff like emboar). zangoose's power, coverage, and the fact that it doesn't have to be locked in to do this is what separates it from the rest of the crowd of normal-types.

also with those calcs: 252/252+ armaldo is actually one of the very, very few mons in the tier that is not 2hkoed by zangoose after sr (and even then if it gets all high rolls, armaldo is toast). want a brief list? double check me here

252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Shuckle: 35.24 - 41.8%
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Armaldo: 36.72 - 43.22%
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wormadam-S: 41.35 - 48.76%
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 41.31 - 48.8%
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 49.06 - 57.86%

alomomola only slips in because it can protect and recover with lefties. not only are 2/5 of these pokemon generally unviable, tangela is on a downswing thanks to amoonguss and armaldo is required to run max/max to even have a shot at living through two close combats. alomomola cannot switch in at all either or else it risks being 2hkoed. on the contrary, a list of things that avoid the 2hko from cb cinccino without even taking into account the fact that it's locked into a move:

252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Lairon: 20.06 - 24.69%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Lairon: 26.23 - 32.4%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Probopass: 29.32 - 35.49%
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Mawile: 29.6 - 36.18%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Bastiodon: 30.86 - 37.03%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Klang: 30.24 - 37.36%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Rock Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cradily: 33.24 - 39.89%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lairon: 32.44 - 40.07%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bastiodon: 33.95 - 40.12%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 32.93 - 40.41%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Rock Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 33.95 - 41.66%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Probopass: 37.03 - 44.75%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Shelgon: 37.42 - 44.91%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Rock Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wormadam-S: 38.58 - 46.29%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 38.46 - 46.7%
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Luxray: 38.46 - 46.7%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Tangela: 45.04 - 54.05%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Mawile: 44.4 - 54.27%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Rock Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cradily: 45.21 - 54.52%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Torterra: 45.68 - 54.56%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Leafeon: 46.4 - 55.38%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 46.18 - 55.42%

Also, Let me just say that your talk of "high level play" as well as the fact that you deem most Zangoose you've seen on the ladder as atrocious (despite the fact that nearly every Zangoose set is the exact same and can be played only one way) seems like a contradiction to the very definition of the S rank tier he's in.

i primarily meant that many users on ladder would misplay with zangoose; leaving it in to get revenge killed, trying to switch it into various attacks only to take >50% damage, try to force sweeps where they weren't coming, etc. like any other frail pokemon, to play to its optimal effectiveness it requires a bit of care and attention to detail that many ladder players, being new or not proficient at the game, lack. that wasn't meant to be an insult or shot to any degree, so i hope you didn't take it like that. :(

A Pokemon that can't be used by the majority of the tier effectively and is only properly mastered by the "high level" players of said tier doesn't sound like a "Low Risk, High Reward" Pokemon to me, it sounds like a Pokemon that needs a high level of skill of be used correctly, which again, is evidenced by the fact that the majority of Zangoose seen on the tier fail to do anything that merits getting an S-rank.

my point is that you can use it effectively if you are competent at pokemon and understand the flaws that zangoose has (namely, its frailty). so so so many people just switch it into attacks or leave it in to take them, which diminishes the overall appearance and effectiveness of zangoose. once it is in is when your 'low risk, high reward' comes into play - you don't have to worry about something being able to switch in and ko you, because literally nothing faster than zangoose can switch in on it unless it's like ninjask coming into a 4x resisted cc. basically, yes, the ladder is generally very awful. :)

Further, Protect is hardly a "crutch". Every single other Orb user as well as the likes of Yanmega commonly run Protect, and it's widely considered one of the best moves in the game. Why is it considered a crutch when it applies to Zangoose? To justify the mindset that Zangoose doesn't actually suffer from 4 Moveslot syndrome, it's just that, again, the majority of the ladder players are too terrible to use Zangoose correctly.

it's a crutch in the sense that when you're using it, you basically admit to yourself that you cannot activate your orb through good play alone. yes, there are situations where it is useful (primarily in matchups like vs rain or something like that to stall out a timer), but these are few and far between in comparison to the utility of having four actual moves to use. in any given match you will use protect only once just to activate your orb... and then it's a dead moveslot. i used to use protect swellow around a year ago when i started getting involved in smogon, but i switched over to quick attack when i realized how much more utility that gave swellow (dodging sucker punches, finishing off weakened scarfers...) and how easy it actually was to active the orb whether via double switches, finishing off something with quick attack, using a slow volt switch or u-turn user...

There's a reason why Cinccino is the most used Pokemon in the tier. It is fast, it hits incredibly hard, and it is very easy to use. And people can play the "The tier is clogged with N00bs, skewing the usage stats!!1" card all they like, but is NU the only tier where the most used Pokemon isn't the best? Doesn't every tier have N00bs? I think there's an attitude of "N00bs use Cinccino! Ultra Talented players use Zangoose!" that pervades this subforum and has led to Cinccino being devalued beyond it's merit and Zangoose elevated above it's merit as a result.

I think it should be moved to A Rank.

this is an incredible overexaggeration, as ium said. the only difference between cinccino being 'easy to use' and zangoose being easy to use is that zangoose has a more difficult time getting in and getting going but then proceeds to do much, much better when actually in the battle. that last sentence in particular really irks me - i'm not saying that zangoose is particularly better for more experienced players or that cinccino is better for newer players (although it feels that way, i guess...). you're simply judging based solely on your experiences against it and saying it's completely stoppable when you're carrying one of its biggest checks, of which there are very few.

and to be clear, i use cinccino more than i use zangoose (i actually haven't touched him since we voted no ban however many months ago). i see where you're coming from, but i still believe that zangoose deserves its S rank.

 

[Shouting]

I'm with audio on this. While they are effective in setting up weather there's very little outside of that niche they can do. They in no way are capable of abusing the weather.

As for dual screeners and spike layers, i don't see how they are held back, both garbodor and gardevoir are A teir and capable of supporting a majority of teams, whereas as illumise and leopard will be of little use outside of weather teams, definitely not deserving enough of anything above C tier.

I don't believe they belong in tier B alongside the likes of swellow, missy, alomola etc.

Just because they don't abuse the weather doesn't make them effective set ups. In fact, putting Sunny day on classic sun sweepers like Victreebel is a horrible idea. Not only do you waste a moveslot for something better (Swords Dance on Swasbuck, Growth / Sleep Powder / Sludge Bomb on Victreebel, etc.) but they don't force enough switches when Sun isn't up to be effective. The only set that can set up sunny day and abuse it effectively is Substitute + Sunny Day Eggy, and even that really isn't amazing because it can't use Heat Rock and lacks coverage.

They're even good outside of weather set up too. For offensive teams, the momentum they can potentially get with encore / taunt combined with U-turn is amazing and nothing else can grab momentum as easily for offensive teams. To prove it, here are the sets that can work outside of setting up weather:

Volbeat (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Thunder Wave
- Encore
- Roost
- U-turn (Or if you want Bug Buzz use Illumise)

Liepard (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Encore / Taunt
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn
- Foul Play

Now you have two amazing momentum grabbers for your average offensive team. Volbeat in particular works great in tandem with Stealth Rock leads such as Golem because it can encore the Ground, Grass and Fighting type moves used to kill and instantly grab momentum. Encore a hazard / status move / set up move / resisted hit and just click U-turn or spread paralysis with Thunder Wave. Priority Encore / Taunt causes so many switches it is ridiculous and the switches can be capitalized on by crippling the switch in or scouting it with U-turn. It is so simple yet so effective for offensive teams. There are no other pokemon in NU that can grab momentum so easily, besides maybe Murkrow, but it is frail, lacks Encore, has no leftovers, and has more exploitable weaknesses in general.

 

[Incon]

Zangoose is also different from Cinccino in the form of coverage moves. Zangoose's main STAB in facade alongside Close Combat and Night Slash gives virtually unresisted coverage, allowing him to bypass bulky Steel and Ghost types which Cincinno cant really do. Sure, Cincy has Wake Up Slap to deal with Steels but its pretty weak without Technician. Zangoose's access to Quick Attack also lets it pick off weakened, faster targets as well as get a hard hit on Choice Scarf users, something that Cincinno lacks. While they both do similar damage, Zangoose can hit much more of the tier and has virtually no hard counters, unlike Cincinno. To say Zangoose is any lower than S isnt justified.

Swellow:
Another mon that is great in this meta, requires similar support to Cincinno, and is one of the best cleaners in the tier. While its current B rank can be justified, i feel that Swellow is good enough to be in the A tier. Its sheer power has been evident in the tier for as long as it has been here, forcing most teams to run a Rock or Steel type just to counter it. This same situation is still true. Without a Bird/Normal resist, Swellow, with its boosted attack, Facade, and amazing speed can run through teams. Cinccino and Swellow require similar support in that the opponents team usually has only one counter for them, usually a Rock/Steel type. Pairing them with a Fighting type usually fixes this. Access to priority, like Zangoose, allows it to pick off Scarf users that outspeed. Both mons have similar base stats, with Swellow having a higher base Speed that is incredibly useful for cleaning up the other team once Scarfers are removed. Despite this, residual damage from its orb is a pain to play with and it has a hard time switching in. However, I believe the positives heavily outweigh the negatives and Swellow is a top tier threat when played correctly.

For these reasons, i believe Swellow should move up to A rank.

 

[Kierany9]

I finally realized the box in the banner said D/E and not DIE.

I'm with audio on this. While they are effective in setting up weather there's very little outside of that niche they can do. They in no way are capable of abusing the weather.

Volbeat:
Just a quick note, I think Volbeat should go up. Why? It has Tail Glow, one of the best boosting moves in the game. It can easily Baton Pass the +3 or +6 SpA boosts onto a sweeper and destroy everything. I use Volbeat in Ubers and Palkia proceeds to get a 6-0 sweep. The opponent asks "Volbeat lolwut" and proceeds to set up. On the third or fourth turn, your sweeper is dealing OHKO hits. I think Volbeat should be moved up to B rank

Raticate:
This set simply kills anything. Anything. I've never gotten why nobody has a Pokemon who uses Endeavour-QuickAttack when it's on low HP. Give it a Focus Sash and it will beat up Sawk. It has a mediocre attack and above-average speed. It has a massive movepool, and can hurt even the mightiest of tanks with Super Fang. Pursuit, Swords Dance, Roar and Wild Charge are all viable as fourth move. And not to mention it can run a Orb-Guts-Facade set like Swellow. Raticate should be at least a C rank

Serperior:
Contrary+Leaf Storm. Kicks ass everywhere after two to three turns. Is it even allowed in NU?
Serperior should be at least an A or S rank.

 

[ebeast]

I finally realized the box in the banner said D/E and not DIE.
Volbeat:
Just a quick note, I think Volbeat should go up. Why? It has Tail Glow, one of the best boosting moves in the game. It can easily Baton Pass the +3 or +6 SpA boosts onto a sweeper and destroy everything. I use Volbeat in Ubers and Palkia proceeds to get a 6-0 sweep. The opponent asks "Volbeat lolwut" and proceeds to set up. On the third or fourth turn, your sweeper is dealing OHKO hits. I think Volbeat should be moved up to B rank

Raticate:
This set simply kills anything. Anything. I've never gotten why nobody has a Pokemon who uses Endeavour-QuickAttack when it's on low HP. Give it a Focus Sash and it will beat up Sawk. It has a mediocre attack and above-average speed. It has a massive movepool, and can hurt even the mightiest of tanks with Super Fang. Pursuit, Swords Dance, Roar and Wild Charge are all viable as fourth move. And not to mention it can run a Orb-Guts-Facade set like Swellow. Raticate should be at least a C rank

Serperior:
Contrary+Leaf Storm. Kicks ass everywhere after two to three turns. Is it even allowed in NU?
Serperior should be at least an A or S rank.

Serperior's DW ability isn't released yet. Roar or Pursuit on Raticate are not viable at all, neither is a FEAR set. While it can work some of the time, Stealth Rock or any kind of hazard completely ruins it and at most that set will only take down 1 Pokemon per match. Raticate is an alright Pokemon but in a tier where Pokemon like Zangoose exist its not the best choice you can make. The Problem with Volbeat is that it can only really do one thing and it's forced to rely on Encore to attempt to set up. Pokemon with Rock Blast such as Armaldo and Golem will ruin its fun as it hits through its Substitutes and any Pokemon with Roar will make Volbeat efforts completely useless.

I think all of the mentioned Pokemon should stay in the rank they currently are in.

 

[Incon]

I finally realized the box in the banner said D/E and not DIE.
Volbeat:
Just a quick note, I think Volbeat should go up. Why? It has Tail Glow, one of the best boosting moves in the game. It can easily Baton Pass the +3 or +6 SpA boosts onto a sweeper and destroy everything. I use Volbeat in Ubers and Palkia proceeds to get a 6-0 sweep. The opponent asks "Volbeat lolwut" and proceeds to set up. On the third or fourth turn, your sweeper is dealing OHKO hits. I think Volbeat should be moved up to B rank

Raticate:
This set simply kills anything. Anything. I've never gotten why nobody has a Pokemon who uses Endeavour-QuickAttack when it's on low HP. Give it a Focus Sash and it will beat up Sawk. It has a mediocre attack and above-average speed. It has a massive movepool, and can hurt even the mightiest of tanks with Super Fang. Pursuit, Swords Dance, Roar and Wild Charge are all viable as fourth move. And not to mention it can run a Orb-Guts-Facade set like Swellow. Raticate should be at least a C rank

Serperior:
Contrary+Leaf Storm. Kicks ass everywhere after two to three turns. Is it even allowed in NU?
Serperior should be at least an A or S rank.

Since Ebeast ninja'd me, im just gonna add a few minor things. Volbeat should stay in its current tier for the reasons he mentioned and just adding to that with the fact that it is complete Taunt bait. Once Taunted, Volbeat becomes useless because it relys so heavily on its support moves and has no offensive presence whatsoever. Raticate is simply an inferior Zangoose. Much lower attack and not too much higher speed are the main reasons. Zangoose also has a way to get past Rock and Steel types, which Raticate lacks. The only thing the rat has over Zangoose is Priority in Sucker Punch which isnt even that worth it because with wrong predictions, you are wasting turns and racking up residual damage from your orb. There is really no reason to use Raticate because there are better options. Serperior would probably be S rank if Contrary was released but sadly its not. Still, Serp is a fast bulky mon that is perfectly fit for the B tier.

 

[elchupo]

aight so let's take a step back here for like just one second. while cb cinccino is comparable to zangoose in power during 1 vs 1 situations, there's absolutely a difference in actual game play and it hinges on the fact that cinccino has to lock itself into a move that will have pretty bad neutral coverage to attain the power of zangoose (meaning something can just as easily come in to take the resisted move), and if it doesn't lock itself in it lacks the power to do anything to defensive cores without significant support. this is especially noticeable when facing down incredibly common cores like alomoonguss esp if paired with a normal resist, which zangoose can actually breeze through if it times the close combat right. if it doesn't, then it can certainly just come back in later and do the same thing with minimal risk.

that's the key difference between cincy and zangoose. when you use zangoose, you don't risk very much at all, as mispredictions can quickly be dealt with by hitting right next time. with cincy, you either get to be weak and thus more likely to take unnecessary damage after failing to KO something, or you lock yourself into a move and hope that you guess right (which isn't always the case, since alomomola has protect and quite a few other mons carry it for stuff like emboar). zangoose's power, coverage, and the fact that it doesn't have to be locked in to do this is what separates it from the rest of the crowd of normal-types.

also with those calcs: 252/252+ armaldo is actually one of the very, very few mons in the tier that is not 2hkoed by zangoose after sr (and even then if it gets all high rolls, armaldo is toast). want a brief list? double check me here

252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Shuckle: 35.24 - 41.8%
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Armaldo: 36.72 - 43.22%
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wormadam-S: 41.35 - 48.76%
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 41.31 - 48.8%
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 49.06 - 57.86%

alomomola only slips in because it can protect and recover with lefties. not only are 2/5 of these pokemon generally unviable, tangela is on a downswing thanks to amoonguss and armaldo is required to run max/max to even have a shot at living through two close combats. alomomola cannot switch in at all either or else it risks being 2hkoed. on the contrary, a list of things that avoid the 2hko from cb cinccino without even taking into account the fact that it's locked into a move:

252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Lairon: 20.06 - 24.69%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Lairon: 26.23 - 32.4%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Probopass: 29.32 - 35.49%
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Mawile: 29.6 - 36.18%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Bastiodon: 30.86 - 37.03%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Klang: 30.24 - 37.36%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Rock Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cradily: 33.24 - 39.89%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lairon: 32.44 - 40.07%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bastiodon: 33.95 - 40.12%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 32.93 - 40.41%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Rock Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 33.95 - 41.66%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Probopass: 37.03 - 44.75%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Shelgon: 37.42 - 44.91%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Rock Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wormadam-S: 38.58 - 46.29%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 38.46 - 46.7%
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Luxray: 38.46 - 46.7%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Tangela: 45.04 - 54.05%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Mawile: 44.4 - 54.27%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Rock Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cradily: 45.21 - 54.52%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Torterra: 45.68 - 54.56%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Leafeon: 46.4 - 55.38%
252 Atk Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 46.18 - 55.42%



i primarily meant that many users on ladder would misplay with zangoose; leaving it in to get revenge killed, trying to switch it into various attacks only to take >50% damage, try to force sweeps where they weren't coming, etc. like any other frail pokemon, to play to its optimal effectiveness it requires a bit of care and attention to detail that many ladder players, being new or not proficient at the game, lack. that wasn't meant to be an insult or shot to any degree, so i hope you didn't take it like that. :(



my point is that you can use it effectively if you are competent at pokemon and understand the flaws that zangoose has (namely, its frailty). so so so many people just switch it into attacks or leave it in to take them, which diminishes the overall appearance and effectiveness of zangoose. once it is in is when your 'low risk, high reward' comes into play - you don't have to worry about something being able to switch in and ko you, because literally nothing faster than zangoose can switch in on it unless it's like ninjask coming into a 4x resisted cc. basically, yes, the ladder is generally very awful. :)



it's a crutch in the sense that when you're using it, you basically admit to yourself that you cannot activate your orb through good play alone. yes, there are situations where it is useful (primarily in matchups like vs rain or something like that to stall out a timer), but these are few and far between in comparison to the utility of having four actual moves to use. in any given match you will use protect only once just to activate your orb... and then it's a dead moveslot. i used to use protect swellow around a year ago when i started getting involved in smogon, but i switched over to quick attack when i realized how much more utility that gave swellow (dodging sucker punches, finishing off weakened scarfers...) and how easy it actually was to active the orb whether via double switches, finishing off something with quick attack, using a slow volt switch or u-turn user...



this is an incredible overexaggeration, as ium said. the only difference between cinccino being 'easy to use' and zangoose being easy to use is that zangoose has a more difficult time getting in and getting going but then proceeds to do much, much better when actually in the battle. that last sentence in particular really irks me - i'm not saying that zangoose is particularly better for more experienced players or that cinccino is better for newer players (although it feels that way, i guess...). you're simply judging based solely on your experiences against it and saying it's completely stoppable when you're carrying one of its biggest checks, of which there are very few.

and to be clear, i use cinccino more than i use zangoose (i actually haven't touched him since we voted no ban however many months ago). i see where you're coming from, but i still believe that zangoose deserves its S rank.

Great post. My argument kind of got derailed with the Cinccino talk, but I simply wanted to bring up the fact that in the vast majortity of cases, Zangoose needs a certain level of skill and situation to be used most effectively which I feel goes against the definition of S-rank. But it does have the jump on Cinccino in terms of sheer power and less required prediction. And I didn't take offence to your "high level play" point since I would consider myself to be of relatively good skill (when I can be bothered to ladder I can reach the top 20/15 with little time/effort).

Zangoose will remain S rank, and probably for good reason, but for me it's still not as good as it's made out to be.

 

[Kierany9]

Roar or Pursuit on Raticate are not viable at all, neither is a FEAR set. While it can work some of the time, Stealth Rock or any kind of hazard completely ruins it and at most that set will only take down 1 Pokemon per match.

Correction: Two Pokemon. As soon as you've KO'ed Pokemon 1, switch out and tank the hit with another Pokemon. Once something else has fainted or Raticate is forced into a slower opponent, repeat Endeavour. The second Pokemon is crippled and easy to take down with almost anything. Stealth rock is solved by Torkoral or Wartortle. FEAR isn't the best set you can run, but it puts a dent in bulky Pokemon like Alomo...Allom...whatever it is and Amoongus and also destroys turns and turns of setup (I'm looking at you, Baton Pass Stored Power Swoobat...). It's pretty viable in Ubers when that Groudon just managed to get in the third Swords Dance(Tailow beats Groudon. Nuff said). But enough Uber talk, this is NU and I still think it's decent...

Volbeat should stay in its current tier for the reasons he mentioned and just adding to that with the fact that it is complete Taunt bait. Once Taunted, Volbeat becomes useless because it relys so heavily on its support moves and has no offensive presence whatsoever.

Volbeat, come back! Go, Zangoose!
NINJA'D!
Jokes aside, it is pretty easy to predict Taunt. Volbeat can easily switch before the opponent gets up taunt and taunting a sweeper instead. A misprediction is bad, but not fatal.

 

[ium]

Correction: Two Pokemon. As soon as you've KO'ed Pokemon 1, switch out and tank the hit with another Pokemon. Once something else has fainted or Raticate is forced into a slower opponent, repeat Endeavour. The second Pokemon is crippled and easy to take down with almost anything. Stealth rock is solved by Torkoral or Wartortle. FEAR isn't the best set you can run, but it puts a dent in bulky Pokemon like Alomo...Allom...whatever it is and Amoongus and also destroys turns and turns of setup (I'm looking at you, Baton Pass Stored Power Swoobat...). It's pretty viable in Ubers when that Groudon just managed to get in the third Swords Dance(Tailow beats Groudon. Nuff said). But enough Uber talk, this is NU and I still think it's decent...

i think raticate should be ranked somewhere, but not for these reasons. the way it's being used here is just very circumstantial and it will often have a hard time damaging more than one pokémon in a match. you absolutely need hazards off; like you said, it can be done, but relying on that for the success of the set (which won't even get more than one or two kills per match and definitely not a sweep) is just too much to be worrying about. raticate is okay with a guts or band hustle set, but it doesn't bring a notable niche for itself at all since there are better things over it, so it should probably be d rank in my opinion.

Jokes aside, it is pretty easy to predict Taunt. Volbeat can easily switch before the opponent gets up taunt and taunting a sweeper instead. A misprediction is bad, but not fatal.

but that simply shows that volbeat is completely shut down and threatened out by one move. furthermore, it's not that easy to predict taunt in some cases; on skuntank sure, on samurott you can't be sure right away. the rest of the points mentioned about volbeat are still valid so saying "oh, you can switch out on the predicted taunt" doesn't really help its case.

 

[Shouting]

And where exactly do you find taunt in NU? From S rank to B rank you have a grand total of three pokemon that often carry taunt: Golbat, Misdreavus and Skuntank (and even then Misdreavus doesn't always carry it) They all dislike Thunder Wave, and Liepard can just taunt them before they taunt back. Skuntank and Misdreavus can't really do anything else to Volbeat besides taunt anyway, and Misdreavus is just bait for Liepard. They are not harmed by taunt any more than any other set up pokemon is.

Edit: Less than 15% of Samurott use Taunt. Not really common at all.

 

[ium]

Skuntank and Misdreavus can't really do anything else to Volbeat besides taunt anyway

this is such an absurd statement. once volbeat is shut down by taunt, the skuntank or misdreavus user has a free turn to do whatever. skuntank can pursuit volbeat as it switches out and do considerable damage to it. misdreavus has a free turn to will-o-wisp whatever switches in or use heal bell to help out its teammates. you have a chance to double-switch knowing that volbeat is unlikely to stay in. if volbeat stays in, then it'll have something constantly attacking it once taunt wears off so its setup opportunity is gone by then.

by the way, skuntank will almost never not run taunt. it's absolutely a key aspect in its role so i don't see why anyone would dismiss it. singling out all the viable pokémon that use taunt doesn't really do justice when skuntank in itself is already seen often on so many teams. also, nobody really mentioned liepard being susceptible to taunt in a 1 vs 1 scenario so that was just arbitrarily mentioned; we were strictly just mentioning taunt in regards to volbeat.

 

[Shouting]

this is such an absurd statement. once volbeat is shut down by taunt, the skuntank or misdreavus user has a free turn to do whatever. skuntank can pursuit volbeat as it switches out and do considerable damage to it. misdreavus has a free turn to will-o-wisp whatever switches in or use heal bell to help out its teammates. you have a chance to double-switch knowing that volbeat is unlikely to stay in. if volbeat stays in, then it'll have something constantly attacking it once taunt wears off so its setup opportunity is gone by then.

by the way, skuntank will almost never not run taunt. it's absolutely a key aspect in its role so i don't see why anyone would dismiss it. singling out all the viable pokémon that use taunt doesn't really do justice when skuntank in itself is already seen often on so many teams. also, nobody really mentioned liepard being susceptible to taunt in a 1 vs 1 scenario so that was just arbitrarily mentioned; we were strictly just mentioning taunt in regards to volbeat.

Standard skuntank is faster than volbeat even with a neutral nature so it does 17-21% with pursuit while volbeat U-turns and gets something in for free...that really isn't doing anything when it can just priority heal later. Crunch doesn't even do that much and can even fail to 2HKO with Stealth Rock, and can fail to 3HKO without it. If you aren't using Crunch you can just forget about doing anything significant to Volbeat.

Shadow Ball from Misdreavus will not 2HKO even with stealth rock. Again, Volbeat really doesn't care about burn because it doesn't harm its ability to momentum grab or set up weather, and it can always heal burn damage with roost.

Also, since these pokemon need to switch in, it is likely the taunt user will just be coming in on a U-turn or Volbeat will be healing with roost.

 

[Shuckleking87]

Taunt is really not that common of a move. Nor is stunktank. It only appears in 8.4% of battle according to last month's battles, which means about 1/12 battles will volbeat be "shut down" by taunt. The only other pokes which will run taunt that aren't prankster users are weezing and electrode, and taunt is not that common on those pokes either. So you have stuntank that 99.69% has taunt, misdreavus will if it's a defensive set, and taunt samurott, which will occur about 1.2%. So that leaves volbeat with almost no resistance from setting up weather. And I believe taunt is a very predictable move, especially on these pokes. If stuntank comes in on a volbeat that has already set up weather and uses pursuit, it will do 41.74% max, meaning that volbeat can come in again even with rocks and set up weather again. So I would say that volbeat gains more. Misdreavus may be more of a threat than stuntank as it can hit on volbeat's weaker special defensive side. Misdreavus could also heal bell/sub/calm mind/ twave volbeat, but volbeat can just encore the poke (all volbeat must have encore and should most likely have baton pass, though u-turn could work if you are afraid of taunt).

B rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the NU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

You would not think of volbeat as a great pokemon at all (illumise is not even mentionable as saying it can be better than volbeat), but it does it task without much resistance. Volbeat has really no legitimate flaws, except that it is weak to all hazards, so unless stealth rocks and some spikes are on the field, it can only set up weather once, but the majority of the time, it can set up weather twice. For almost all weather teams, 16 turns is all they really need to accomplish their task. Volbeat also really does not face much competition in its job. Sure, other pokes can set up rain, but volbeat is the only guarantee (as well as other pranksters, but volbeat is the best one). I think it is difficult to place volbeat in the likes of some pokemon in the B tier such as Fraxure, swellow and torterra, but volbeat also make pokemon in the tier like charizard, mantine, sawsbuck, seismetoad and swanna that much better. I say put the firefly, albeit very surprisingly, in B tier

 

[Kierany9]

I say put the firefly, albeit very surprisingly, in B tier

Not surprising. It does well as an excellent weather supporter, but as I mentioned before Volbeat is by far the best Baton Passer(Even better than Ninjask, because it takes less time to set up and is much harder to be sniped by a priority move.) Tail glow boosts +3 special attack, so two or three turns and your special sweeper is ready to go. Unless Stuntank or something is the lead, there isn't much one can do, as +3 is already a godly boost. I'm changing my mind: Volbeat should be A rank.

A rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the NU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

Sweep, wall OR support. Volbeat is amazing for support. It can set up weather with priority, it can Baton Pass with minimal effort and conjure up a random Thunder Wave, Swagger or Toxic before your opponent even makes a move. It is one of six NU Pokemon with Seismic Toss to deal with substitute abusers or trap them there with encore. It can easily escape the grasp of Taunt with U-Turn, leaving Misdreavous or Stuntank very pissed indeed. Switch in, set up, switch out. The momentum is kept and the opponent is screwed. Volbeat is a true force to be reckoned with in NU.
Flaws of Volbeat: Four Slot Moveset Syndrome.

 

[Kierany9]

Sorry for double posting, but here is an analysis to prove Shuckle's worth. The most powerful sweeper in NU VS a defensive Shuckle w/leftovers.
Shuckle @ Leftovers
Trait: Contrary

-Shell Smash
-Toxic
-Substitute
-Power Swap

252 Atk Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Shuckle: 51-61 (20.9 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO
5 hit KO at best, 7 hit KO at worst. Now, on turn 1 Shuckle has used Power Trick. So Zangoose now deals between 10.5 and 12.5%(6% of which is healed via leftovers). Assuming Zangoose always gets high rolls, after 2 turns this will be the result...
Shuckle: 77%
Shuckle will proceed to set up a substitute, taking a hit from Zangoose prior to it.
Shuckle:46%
Two turns of Contrary Shell Smash and Leftovers Recovery later...
252 Atk Zangoose Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Shuckle: 26-31 (10.65 - 12.7%) -- 9HKO at best
Remember, Power Trick has halved Zangoose's attack, meaning his max is 6%. The same as Leftovers heals. Zangoose will never be able to defeat Shuckle unless it gets a lucky critical hit when the substitute is down, while Zangoose's own poison eats away at it. And once Shuckle is fully boosted...
252 Atk Zangoose Close Combat vs. +6 252 HP / 252 Def Shuckle: 13-16 (5.32 - 6.55%) -- 9HKO at best
That is 3% at max due to Power Swap. So, Shuckle can set up on almost any physical sweeper and tank it to hell.
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal Earthquake vs. +6 252 HP / 252 Def Shuckle: 62-74 (25.4 - 30.32%) -- possible 4HKO
See what I mean.

I seem to remember someone posting something about Luvdisc 2HKOing Shuckle... Shuckle isn't supposed to set up on special sweepers. It can tank them once set up, but not before. It's like asking a Cinccino to go set up on Hitmonlee. Retardedness...

D or C rank maybe?