Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)

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PokeDoll said:
Also with steel being nerfed, Skarmory isn't going to be too happy with that. Losing resistances is never a good thing for a defensive Pokemon, and I also enjoyed using swords dance + bullet punch Scizor, so those loss of resistances will also make set-up opportunities less available for that Pokemon.
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True with the Skarmory thing, but the only ghosts currently in OU are special anyway (Jellicent, Gengar), which Skarmory could never really stay in on. Not resisting Tyranitar's Crunch also sucks, but tbh, Skarmory is more than capable of tanking Choice Scarf Tyranitar's Crunch, which means the only real concern is Choice Band. What's more, Skarmory never liked taking CB Stone Edge from Ttar anyway. So yeah, losing resists sucks for defensive mons in general, but because Skarm is a physical wall, and because physical dark + ghost types are relatively rare, it doesn't end up mattering as much as you might think.

Of course, gen 6 could introduce new threats that shake things up a bit, but then that's whole new kettle of fish :3
 
Mega evolution happens on the same round - but Mewtwo is probably faster than Crobat regardless.

It's a separate action from the attack; we don't know what priority bracket that action occupies.

EDIT: hurr, I didn't realize that the post I was responding to was two pages back, can someone delete this?
 
PokeDoll said:
Also with steel being nerfed, Skarmory isn't going to be too happy with that. Losing resistances is never a good thing for a defensive Pokemon, and I also enjoyed using swords dance + bullet punch Scizor, so those loss of resistances will also make set-up opportunities less available for that Pokemon.
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You are forgetting about Steel type's buffs, namely its resistance to Fairy moves and Steel moves hitting for super effective against Fairy-types. This means that Skarmory will at least be a check to any physical Fairy-type that manages to become OU, and as FrostFire mentioned, Skarmory couldn't handle the Ghosts of OU anyway while CB Tyranitar's Crunch doesn't 2HKO Skarmory (Stone Edge is the real problem for Skarmory).

Scizor also may have lost its ability to switch into Gengar but now it can easily revenge kill Fairy-types.

The buffs that Steel-types received easily outweight the nerfs imo.
 
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Seconding Alexwolf. Dark was never a particularly threatening offensive type what with its most powerful attack being the 80 BP Crunch. It trades ineffectiveness against Steel for ineffectiveness against Fairy. Since both are bound to be prominent types, I don't think Dark's offensive strengths have been affected much.
 
IcyMan28 said:
Seconding Alexwolf. Dark was never a particularly threatening offensive type what with its most powerful attack being the 80 BP Crunch. It trades ineffectiveness against Steel for ineffectiveness against Fairy. Since both are bound to be prominent types, I don't think Dark's offensive strengths have been affected much.
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Unless they release a whole bunch of viable Fairy-types, Steel will probably be more prominent, so Dark types would actually come out with a slight advantage. Also, not to be "that guy", but the most powerful Dark-type attack is technically Payback while moving after the target, or, if you don't think that counts, Foul Play has 95 BP.
 
Correction: the most powerful Dark-type attack that isn't hopelessly niche.

You still have the same problem; offensive Dark-types need to be crazy good (ex: Darkrai!) in terms of stats, coverage, support options, etc. in order to work, because their STAB isn't exactly stellar.
 
Yeah, Crunch (as the generally best dark type STAB) is just another reason why steel types losing a dark resist isn't a big deal. Defensive Steels that we have currently - like Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Forretress - will still be able to take dark type attacks well enough because of their low base power. Foul play for a defensive mon is not exactly a concern because of their poor offensive stats, and payback requiring you to go last isn't optimal either. Ghost types (i.e. Gengar) actually has a similar issue in that Shadow Ball (it's most powerful attack) is only 80 BP. Compare that to say, Latios' Draco Meteor (140 BP), and you can see that there really is a significant power difference there. Of course, the generally powerful neutral coverage helps substantially, but you have to remember the stuff that is already weak to Gengar's Shadow Ball - like Specially Defensive Celebi - can already take it somewhat:

252 SA timid Lefties Gengar v. 252/ 236+ Celebi: 47.52-56.43%

That's the sub/disable variant, which Celebi can OHKO with Psychic. Still, outside of Blissey/ Chansey, walling Gengar is looking pretty tough, and with 110 base speed, it isn't easy to revenge. Definitely shaping up to be pretty damn good; and if GF decided to introduce a new, more powerful special ghost move. Well.
 
Afti said:
Correction: the most powerful Dark-type attack that isn't hopelessly niche.

You still have the same problem; offensive Dark-types need to be crazy good (ex: Darkrai!) in terms of stats, coverage, support options, etc. in order to work, because their STAB isn't exactly stellar.
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It may not be too good, but it's definitely not the worst offensive type, and being able to hit the Steel-types that are running around the tier neutrally is definitely a buff, even if it hits a different type for half damage, and given the fact that said type is weak to Steel, Steel type moves will see more use, meaning Steel-types will use their STAB more to deal with this new threat, and if this leads to even a slight increase of Steel-type usage, then it will be a fair trade, possibly working out even better for the Dark-types.
 
before people start tripping over themselves over gengar's new (not really) ghost/poison coverage:

currently known mons that resist ghost / poison:

skuntank / drapion
tyranitar (dat focus blast though, but scarftar still beats gengar)
krookodile
bisharp

halfway decent mons that outspeed and OHKO gengar:

alakazam
jolteon w/ thunder
weavile
starmie
aerodactyl
swellow
azelf
tornadus

other mons that outspeed and OHKO

swoobat
floatzel
ambipom

mons that speed tie and OHKO

espeon
latios/latias
froslass


mons that get shadow sneak and can check / kill

dusknoir
spiritomb
gallade
banette
muk

also, blissey still laughs at most special moves (good luck beating her with only focus blast). if gengar is really top tier OU it may be worth it to use one of these guys?

EDIT: the most powerful dark move is fling + iron ball, fyi
 
Arash said:
halfway decent mons that outspeed and OHKO gengar:

alakazam
jolteon w/ thunder
weavile
starmie
aerodactyl
swellow
azelf
tornadus

other mons that outspeed and OHKO

swoobat
floatzel
ambipom

mons that speed tie and OHKO

espeon
latios/latias
froslass


mons that get shadow sneak and can check / kill

dusknoir
spiritomb
gallade
banette
muk

also, blissey still laughs at most special moves (good luck beating her with only focus blast). if gengar is really top tier OU it may be worth it to use one of these guys?

EDIT: the most powerful dark move is fling + iron ball, fyi
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You can't be seriously recommending Banette as a Gengar check.... right?

Also I'd say that the list of threats looks like this:
alakazam
jolteon w/ thunder
weavile
starmie
aerodactyl
swellow
azelf
tornadus

In addition, Gengar is very good now, so we're discussing how its buffs will help it. Saying that muk and check / kill Gengar or that Swoobat can outspeed and kill it is incorrect now, forget a buffed Gengar. Also I really liked the first list of your post because its stated (for the most part) relevant threats to Gengar, but the rest was kind of not relevant at all to OU.
 
Going back MegaChomp,
I'd like to hear more bout it.
As somebody already said, if Megachomp was to get even 20 more speed up, it'd be a huge change.
Even if it were to not be blessed with a speed-boosting move, with sand force and bing naturally fast, Mega Chomp would be a terror. However, I'm still not sure just how much stat boost the mega forms will get. And there is always a possibility of the devs trolling the customers (i.e. spA boost for MegaChomp loool).

All in all, I'd be happy for garchomp to get dragon dance and/or rock polish/agility.
 
muk has no problem switching into gengar with its massive HP and good Special defense (bar the odd psychic) and can 2HKO with unboosted shadow sneak (which is often found on muk). swoobat and banette admittedly were only included for completeness, but who's to say that poison types like muk and drapion won't rise (what with being a fairy counter and all).

additionally, there's still too much we don't know to claim gengar as king of 6th gen OU... what if mega-absol outspeeds? new normal / steel type that's immune to poison and ghost? so many possibilities
 
Arash said:
muk has no problem switching into gengar with its massive HP and good Special defense (bar the odd psychic) and can 2HKO with unboosted shadow sneak (which is often found on muk). swoobat and banette admittedly were only included for completeness, but who's to say that poison types like muk and drapion won't rise (what with being a fairy counter and all).
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Drapion might see some more use as a niche Fairy check, and it does have a few different support options such as Toxic Spikes, Whirlwind, Knock Off, and Taunt, so it could carve out a niche for itself, but Muk just gets beaten/set up on by too many threats in the current metagame to see use.
 
Doesn't Meloetta counter Gengar? Poison types now have to rise to beat Fairies AND Gengar.
We need a Ghost/Normal! Resist Sludge Bomb, immune to Shadow Ball and immune to Focus Blast




Poison Heal does not provide immunity to Poison. Neither do Toxic Boost nor Immunity(which is ironic lol).
 
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youngjake93 said:
Doesn't Meloetta counter Gengar? Poison types now have to rise to beat Fairies AND Gengar.
We need a Ghost/Normal! Resist Sludge Bomb, immune to Shadow Ball and immune to Focus Blast
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Not if you want it purely to counter an existing pokemon. Otherwise, it would be nice. Normal/Ghost pokemon with poison heal could easily be Schroedinger's Cat.
 
Yeah, current Gengar checks are shaky but who knows what will rise/fall in terms of checking it? No one could have predicted Ferrothorn. I have a creeping suspicion that Blissey will be retconned into a Fairy type, which means Gengar could realistically run Sludge Bomb to get around it.
 
Funny enough the Pokemon that wall Gengar are: Tank Dragonite, Togekiss, Gastrodon, Meloetta, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Muk, Mandibuzz, Drapion, Noctowl, Eviolite: the Musical, Fairy/Normal- or Fairy/Dark-types (if it lacks Sludge Bomb), and a bunch of really uncommon sets and NU Pokemon.

But then there's Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak, Aqua Jet in Rain, Bullet Punch, Stealth Rock, Sand, every Scarf Pokemon under the rainbow, Pursuit: the Experience (hosted by Tyranitar and Scizor with special guest Drapion), Weavile, Jolteon, faster Pokemon in general, and well yeah you should see what I'm getting at. Ghost is a fantastic offensive typing now; but unless everyone has a giant, immovable stick up our collective ass and are unwilling to try things considered unconventional in the 5th gen meta; it is completely manageable.
 
Arash said:
muk has no problem switching into gengar with its massive HP and good Special defense (bar the odd psychic) and can 2HKO with unboosted shadow sneak (which is often found on muk). swoobat and banette admittedly were only included for completeness, but who's to say that poison types like muk and drapion won't rise (what with being a fairy counter and all).

additionally, there's still too much we don't know to claim gengar as king of 6th gen OU... what if mega-absol outspeeds? new normal / steel type that's immune to poison and ghost? so many possibilities
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Okay, I see your point, sorry if I came off as rude before. I see your point, but i think current OU threats will mostly do a better job what Katakiri listed above. I think that you bring up a great point that bad pokemon could potentially be good next gen. While it's definitely hard to see Muk and Drapion in OU, i guess it could happen. However, again I think the proven checks are proven for a reason, and will continue to prove themselves, as they basically have better stats and are mainly better pokemon. Thanks for bringing up that point though.

EDIT:
Also looks like Gengar will be running Sludge Bomb next gen.

Sub/Sludge Bomb/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast or Disable anyone?
 
Mega mawile's gonna be great.
If its attack gets boosted by 6 or more when it mega evolves, it will have an attack of 182+ after huge power, better than deoxys-a!!!
 
starwarsfan said:
Mega mawile's gonna be great.
If its attack gets boosted by 6 or more when it mega evolves, it will have an attack of 182+ after huge power, better than deoxys-a!!!
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That's not how it works. Iirc, Pikachu with max investment has higher attacking stats than DeoA(and only 1 weakness omg broken?). You double the stat not the base. MegaMawile will be much stronger than DeoA.
 
I do think that is funny though how it is like "omg Mawile with double power and great typing" when Pikach has doubled power and only 1 weakness(less than Mawile) with a very usable base speed(unlike Mawile), but sucks.
I still think MegaMawile will be great, it's just funny and ironic how it compares to Pikachu when you think about it

I know guys. Lots of factors make MegaMawile better(possibly high OU). No need to freak out, I was just pointing out that if you take them out, they are comparable.

Plus if a mod wants to delete all Pikachu-related posts, that'd be cool
 
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alexwolf said:
You are forgetting about Steel type's buffs, namely its resistance to Fairy moves and Steel moves hitting for super effective against Fairy-types. This means that Skarmory will at least be a check to any physical Fairy-type that manages to become OU, and as FrostFire mentioned, Skarmory couldn't handle the Ghosts of OU anyway while CB Tyranitar's Crunch doesn't 2HKO Skarmory (Stone Edge is the real problem for Skarmory).

Scizor also may have lost its ability to switch into Gengar but now it can easily revenge kill Fairy-types.

The buffs that Steel-types received easily outweight the nerfs imo.
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Honestly, I'm not so sure about this. The buffs are entirely dependant on an unknown quantity (the quality of fairies), while the nerfs are very much known and very much negative. Personally, I think people have been really overhyping fairy types, and thus that the resistance and super effective hit Steel gained will not be nearly as useful as the Ghost and Dark resist.

Either way though, everything lies in how good fairies are. Personally, I look at the typing and think it is rather mediocre. Defensively the resistances are pretty nice, but small in quantity. I think it will make a great secondary type defensively, but by itself, its not really all that great, and paired with something bland defensively (like say Wigglytuff with its Normal/Fairy), it will really not be all that good. If paired with a better defensive typing, it could be great, but by itself, its nothing special. Offensively, Fairy is underwhelming. SE on Dragon is cool, but outside of obligatory STAB moves, it is fairly useless as a coverage option as Ice does it better. SE on Fighting is nice too, but again, this is more useful as a STAB thing. Fighting types are not something you usually need coverage for as they are not exactly the wall type. Powerful neutral hits are more useful than spending a move on fairy coverage for them. And finally SE on Dark, which is nice, I guess, but nothing special. Dark is not the most common typing, so while its a nice thing to have, its not anything worth writing home about. And, of course, being resisted by Steel and Fire does it no favors. Overall, I just don't see Fairy being a super offensive typing. Rather, I see it more like Flying this gen. Nice to have as a STAB, and a niche coverage option for a few guys, but in general, just there, providing some passive defensive benefits to dual types. It certainly won't be an offensive powerhouse like gen 5 Dragon or Fighting.

And with that said, I just don't think that Fairy will be all that dominating. And if it is not that dominating, then the buffs to steel are not that great. And so I really do think Steel did not get better by its presence. I won't say it necessarily got worse, but I see it more as a neutral trade that Scizor and other offensive Steels appreciate more than the defensive ones.
 
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