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Other 6th Gen Pokemon OU Candidate Speculation Thread
- Thread starter Blitzenith
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Tentacruel dropping and Breloom not, what the fuck man.
There is absolutely no doubt that Aegislash is going to be a top OU candidate. Yes it has a weak STAB attack, but +2 Shadow Sneak coming off a base 150 Attack is not something you want to mess with. Ghost is also a really strong offensive typing this gen, having a resist and only 1 uncommon immunity. It's really good natural bulk and solid typing means it can live a hit almost always and set up extra SDs or get off a hit with Secret Sword/Iron Head. The ability to switch between a glass cannon and a brick wall. Its steel typing isn't bad at all to handle fairies that will likely still be super popular in the early meta.
All the talk about it being predictable is true, but that doesn't mean Aegislash isn't a threat. Breloom was predictable, but it was still a huge threat. Volcarona was predictable but still remained as a top tier threat. The list just goes on and on.
All the talk about it being predictable is true, but that doesn't mean Aegislash isn't a threat. Breloom was predictable, but it was still a huge threat. Volcarona was predictable but still remained as a top tier threat. The list just goes on and on.
Predictions on some of the Most Potent Mons in XY
Blaziken- Despite the addition of Megalutions, the legal combo of speed boost baton pass is Blaziken's greatest addition this generation. This versatility opens so many strategies. Verdict Ubers
Gengarnite- SHADOW TAG. The ban hammer is hovering over gengar before this metagame has already begun. Shadow tag coupled with spectacular speed and special attack allows gengar to pick off any counter you desire allowing another mon to sweep unhindered. Trapping abilities are inherently frowned upon as they take away an aspect of competitive draw back. Unlike other trapping abilities Shadow tag has no drawbacks and traps everything (except ghosts which gengar has little trouble with as he outspeeds and kills). Verdict Ubers
Lucarionite- Lucarionite transforms gen 4's most popular cleaner into one of gen 6's greatest breakers. Spectacular stats combine with adaptability to drop warheads on any pokemon brave enough to switch in. Lucario's tiering however is not as clear as gengar and Blazekin as we have had powerful offensive threats in previous generations. Lucario's fate lies in the hands of the OU senate and their definition of a desired metagame. Verdict High OU / Uber
Aegislash- the long sought after ghost / steel type finally arrives although with some nerfs. Aegislash's very limited move pool comprises of all the tools it needs to succeed against any pokemon. The hallmark of his moves being King's Shield acting as a protect that harshly lowers the opponents attack upon contact. Aegislash can fit into almost any play style due to its very unique ability to swap its stats. Although prediction is strong with him, he will undoubtably become a common sight. Verdict OU
Greninja- Greninja was mixed with mixed reviews after not receiving the rumored Water / Fighting typing. The hype train began moving at full steam after his Hidden Ability of Protean was released allowing him to change typing and gain STAB on any move he uses. He has a solid offensive and supporting move pool. Unfortunately I do not believe that Greninja will live up to the hype. Without boosting moves, Greninja fails to KO a large portion of the OU tier. Running Choice Specs negates the usefulness of his ability while Life Orb drastically cuts down his dwindling longevity. His poor bulk will lead to his demise while he fails to KO. The change of Defog mechanics favors spikes that can consistently switch in spikes as opposed to setting up spikes once and reaping the benefits. Verdict: Scrafty Syndrome (Greninja will be OU due to flavor and hype but will undoubtably serve better in UU).
Blaziken- Despite the addition of Megalutions, the legal combo of speed boost baton pass is Blaziken's greatest addition this generation. This versatility opens so many strategies. Verdict Ubers
Gengarnite- SHADOW TAG. The ban hammer is hovering over gengar before this metagame has already begun. Shadow tag coupled with spectacular speed and special attack allows gengar to pick off any counter you desire allowing another mon to sweep unhindered. Trapping abilities are inherently frowned upon as they take away an aspect of competitive draw back. Unlike other trapping abilities Shadow tag has no drawbacks and traps everything (except ghosts which gengar has little trouble with as he outspeeds and kills). Verdict Ubers
Lucarionite- Lucarionite transforms gen 4's most popular cleaner into one of gen 6's greatest breakers. Spectacular stats combine with adaptability to drop warheads on any pokemon brave enough to switch in. Lucario's tiering however is not as clear as gengar and Blazekin as we have had powerful offensive threats in previous generations. Lucario's fate lies in the hands of the OU senate and their definition of a desired metagame. Verdict High OU / Uber
Aegislash- the long sought after ghost / steel type finally arrives although with some nerfs. Aegislash's very limited move pool comprises of all the tools it needs to succeed against any pokemon. The hallmark of his moves being King's Shield acting as a protect that harshly lowers the opponents attack upon contact. Aegislash can fit into almost any play style due to its very unique ability to swap its stats. Although prediction is strong with him, he will undoubtably become a common sight. Verdict OU
Greninja- Greninja was mixed with mixed reviews after not receiving the rumored Water / Fighting typing. The hype train began moving at full steam after his Hidden Ability of Protean was released allowing him to change typing and gain STAB on any move he uses. He has a solid offensive and supporting move pool. Unfortunately I do not believe that Greninja will live up to the hype. Without boosting moves, Greninja fails to KO a large portion of the OU tier. Running Choice Specs negates the usefulness of his ability while Life Orb drastically cuts down his dwindling longevity. His poor bulk will lead to his demise while he fails to KO. The change of Defog mechanics favors spikes that can consistently switch in spikes as opposed to setting up spikes once and reaping the benefits. Verdict: Scrafty Syndrome (Greninja will be OU due to flavor and hype but will undoubtably serve better in UU).
Keep in mind Gengar loses ground immunity so physical ground attackers can do major damage
And it takes a turn to come into effect so you can switch in a pursuiting counter first anyway.
Parhaps he could live in OU. Maybe. One of the reason banhammer fell onto him was the huge buff perm sun brought to fire blitz, and all the time to set up with protect and sword dance, if I'm not mistaken. Now, he is surely a great batonpasser, but why do not use scolipede, same ability and sword dance as well, for passing and blaziken as a set up sweeper by himself? Without permanent sun his flare blitz is far weaker, adn if he wants sun he must hurry to set up. Still a fearfull monster to face, high attack, great coverage with stab alone and high power move with that ability and sword dance. This is strong, no doubt. But I think there is a possibility for him to see OU lught once again, for more than a few months. Also there is an overall increase of bulky monsters and a new fight resist in fairy, so he can be handled. Sill reaps throught HO teams, but they aldready died the moment sticky web was announced.
Remember that's gen FIVE OU. I see at least a few dark-type candidates. Absol, Houndoom, Gyarados even Drapion has some potential this gen. Not that I disagree really. Hydreigon wasn't popular but he was a strong pokemon last gen and is still really strong this generation as well. Plus, in my mind, there's no way a pokemon with a 600+ BST is going to be convincingly below BL ever. (The only examples of that I can think of are Deoxys-D, Cresselia and Kyurem, and that was due to a lack of offensive presence in two cases and an atrocious typing and really awful movepool in the other. Oh and Slaking and Regigigas, but that's for obvious reasons.) Anyway, I just think it's important to clarify that all this is within the frame of reference of what was good last gen. Not necessarily what will be good this gen. Like Gengar, I think Gengar is strong and unpredictable, but I dunno if he'll be unmanageable. Especially given his vulnerability to priority, pursuit and his weakness to ground.
I'm not sure what exactly to make of Greninja. On the one hand, Rapid Spin being debunked made his potential as a utility poke, which was initially looking like his claim to OU status, take a nosedive, as did news of the newly-buffed Defog, which made his role as a fast hazards setter look a lot less attractive too, as I feel that the ease with which hazards can be removed makes bulky hazard users which have the staying power to set them up multiple times more attractive. However, seeing those damage calcs regarding what it can do with Protean and a Life Orb was sobering. It seems like the ultimate utility-revenge-killer. Its potential position in OU hinges on how much that niche is going to be in demand, I think.
Obviously most of the Megas are going to be sitting pretty in OU, at least the ones which don't end up banned. I think a fair few will be off to ubers. Once you get past those, I think there'll only be a handful of newcomers in OU. A lot of the new Pokémon aren't too great. And y'know what, that's okay. It'll make the lower tiers a lot more interesting instead of OU, and that's fine.
However, that's not to say that there won't be any. The big one is Aegislash. It's possibly the only Pokémon with a mid-battle form-changing gimmick to actually be not only viable but actually extremely strong as a result of it. Its movepool is relatively small, but incredibly focussed. Its an incredible priority attacker after SD in sword stance, it can tank through a ton of stuff in shield mode, it attains perfect neutral coverage in two attacks, and the chicanery you can pull off with King's Shield can be downright cruel. However, I feel like the truly devious battlers might play with the expectations of their opponent a little, and instead of using King's Shield use Substitute instead to deal with the status moves that, as of right now, look like the only sure-fire way to neuter the threat that Aegislash brings to the table.
Goodra I feel is also a shoo-in. It's a strange pokémon with a strange stat spread, but that gargantuan sp. def and mixed offensive options are going to land it on quite a few teams. Dragalge I feel will also make it despite the many claims to the contrary, although that hinges largely on when Adaptability becomes available.
Talonflame and its insanely powerful priority will also give it a spot, I think. Those 80 base attacking stats were almost enough for me to write it off instantly, but I've had to change my mind after seeing what it can do. It's also showing a surprising amount of versatility - I've seen about three or four really solid sets for it, from SD to Bulk Up to even some mixed attacking sets.
At least one of the new fairies is going to make it. Whether that will be Sylveon or Florges or both remains to be seen. They're practically identical pokes when it comes to stats and movepool, but I feel like Sylveon and its (marginally) more useful ability will see that it gets the nod. Of course, there might be room enough for both. Klefki and its prankster shenanigans will also give it a spot.
Zygarde will make it in too, I think. It's easy to point out its shortcomings when compared to Garchomp, but I feel like its mammoth physical bulk, strong typing and its access to Coil, DD, and Espeed for Priority will save it from Kyurem syndrome.
Other than that, I'm drawing blanks. I feel like everything else is outclassed by something else already in OU, and thus will end up in UU and below, which again, I have no problem with because I think it's good for variety. No matter whether I'm right or wrong, I feel like enough is going to change that it's going to feel like a fresh experience, and a very fun new metagame.
Obviously most of the Megas are going to be sitting pretty in OU, at least the ones which don't end up banned. I think a fair few will be off to ubers. Once you get past those, I think there'll only be a handful of newcomers in OU. A lot of the new Pokémon aren't too great. And y'know what, that's okay. It'll make the lower tiers a lot more interesting instead of OU, and that's fine.
However, that's not to say that there won't be any. The big one is Aegislash. It's possibly the only Pokémon with a mid-battle form-changing gimmick to actually be not only viable but actually extremely strong as a result of it. Its movepool is relatively small, but incredibly focussed. Its an incredible priority attacker after SD in sword stance, it can tank through a ton of stuff in shield mode, it attains perfect neutral coverage in two attacks, and the chicanery you can pull off with King's Shield can be downright cruel. However, I feel like the truly devious battlers might play with the expectations of their opponent a little, and instead of using King's Shield use Substitute instead to deal with the status moves that, as of right now, look like the only sure-fire way to neuter the threat that Aegislash brings to the table.
Goodra I feel is also a shoo-in. It's a strange pokémon with a strange stat spread, but that gargantuan sp. def and mixed offensive options are going to land it on quite a few teams. Dragalge I feel will also make it despite the many claims to the contrary, although that hinges largely on when Adaptability becomes available.
Talonflame and its insanely powerful priority will also give it a spot, I think. Those 80 base attacking stats were almost enough for me to write it off instantly, but I've had to change my mind after seeing what it can do. It's also showing a surprising amount of versatility - I've seen about three or four really solid sets for it, from SD to Bulk Up to even some mixed attacking sets.
At least one of the new fairies is going to make it. Whether that will be Sylveon or Florges or both remains to be seen. They're practically identical pokes when it comes to stats and movepool, but I feel like Sylveon and its (marginally) more useful ability will see that it gets the nod. Of course, there might be room enough for both. Klefki and its prankster shenanigans will also give it a spot.
Zygarde will make it in too, I think. It's easy to point out its shortcomings when compared to Garchomp, but I feel like its mammoth physical bulk, strong typing and its access to Coil, DD, and Espeed for Priority will save it from Kyurem syndrome.
Other than that, I'm drawing blanks. I feel like everything else is outclassed by something else already in OU, and thus will end up in UU and below, which again, I have no problem with because I think it's good for variety. No matter whether I'm right or wrong, I feel like enough is going to change that it's going to feel like a fresh experience, and a very fun new metagame.
Mew, Victini, Shaymin, and Meloetta.
Also, plenty of 580 BST trio legendaries are in the lower tiers. 15 of the 20, in fact, are UU or lower, and some lurk RU and NU. BST isn't everything.
True, but it's usually because of an inability to make any sort of impact or do anything unique. Or because of a really poor movepool or terrible typing. Hydreigon does not have a really bad typing and has a very extensive movepool. I'm not saying that BST is everything, I'm just saying that a pokemon with a high BST if it's stats are properly distributed is unlikely to drop below BL because it's just too strong for the lower tiers. Hydreigon has a good typing, good ability, and a very extensive movepool. It's also a very unique pokemon.
Except for Mega-Mawile. If Conkeldurr really wants to kill her in one hit he HAS to run Fire Punch, and even then it's only a OKHO if she's running 252HP only (All Mawiles run that pretty much) with no other defense investment and a neutral defense nature. 252HP 0Def Impish Mawile fails to be OKHOed.
If it's not running Fire Punch it has to rely on Drain Punch
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 153-181 (50.32 - 59.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def (custom): 140-165 (46.05 - 54.27%) -- 51.95% chance to 2HKO (Impish only)
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 114-136 (37.5 - 44.73%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Fully defensive Mawile)
Meanwhile, 0 atk investment Mawile with Impish
0 Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Rough Play vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 438-516 (114.96 - 135.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And fully defensive Conkeldurr (doesn't really exist, but only for numbers : 0 Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Rough Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Conkeldurr: 312-368 (75.36 - 88.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And and she's immune to Poison Jab!
Yeah but Hydreigon suffered from lack of usage before 6th gen got announced. It and Haxorus have the same problem: great stats and movesets, but easily checked or taken out. It was rare in mid-late 5th gen to see Hydriegon because of Fighting-types/FocusBlast. Match that now with the possibility of stuf like Azumarill, Gardevior, and Clefable moving up in tiers if could drop to UU. The best niche that I can see for it now is a hit&run revenge killer which is still fine but i mean usage will be the determining factor if it drops not just new Fairies types.
Based on current usages and new 6th gen changes i can see Hydreigon, Haxorus, Metagross, and normal Lucario perhaps dropping tiers
I see too many people talking about pre-gen 6 Pokemon. Please limit discussion to Pokemon introduced in Gen 6 ONLY.
If i remember Sand Veil is banned (which is petty as hell) but it can do well in Rain or Sun. Its main issue is that it gets destroyed by FocusBlast or CloseCombat so his placement in OU is iffy but has a slightly better chance in UU. Outside of that Dry Skin and Solar Power are great for him considering his spatt and speed. Also in rain he has access to 100% acc Thunder and boosted Surf
We can see some Megas go UBER as well
Aegislash is definitely one of the most overhyped Pokemon in this generation, but I do think it just barely qualifies as OU material. I see a comparison to Porygon-Z or Electivire here- a Pokemon that looks unstoppable on paper (under ideal conditions by theorymon trainers, of course) but doesn't have the utility to make a dent against teams that can easily adapt against it.
The first major problem I see with Aegislash is that it consistently gets annihilated in the face of specially offensive Pokemon. Keldeo in the rain is a perfect example- if you Swords Dance up against it you still can get OHKO'd by Hydro Pump, Shadow Sneak doesn't do nearly enough damage to stop it from smashing you back for far more damage, and if you try to power through it with some gimmick Specs or Band set it will always outspeed you and OHKO you with any water move it uses. At least Pokemon like Dragonite have the bulk to set up without using up a turn of momentum. Even a resisted hit like Specs Draco Meteor from Latios can OHKO Aegislash once it goes in attack form, so it's not like just setting up on a Pokemon it resists and attacking it is always a safe response.
Also, a lot of the physical Pokemon which Aegislash can supposedly switch in on can put Earthquake or a dark type move in their movepool, such as Terrakion, Lucario, and even Conkeldurr. They can all easily tank a hit from Aegislash and blow it up with EQ. The idea that Aegislash is going to be a competent physical wall once Gen 6 players learn to put this move on all of their physical sweepers is ridiculous. Finally, many defensive Pokemon that it could normally set up on, like Tentacruel or Vaporeon, can still cripple and outstall it after a Scald burn.
Simply put, Aegislash is just a speed bump in the face of any decently made offensive team, too easily crippled by burn against defensive teams, and too risky to use as a consistent defensive tank. It needs a lot of team support just to function ideally and is anything but unstoppable.
That being said, Aegislash can be a huge thorn in the side of Choice users, and a good defensive pivot if you absolutely NEED to avoid getting hit by rock/steel/fighting type attacks. Of course, people can predict you and go for the EQ on the switch, and a weakned Aegislash is practically a useless one. Honestly, I think this Pokemon will see more use in the 3-Pokemon random wifi battles because surprise sets are much more devastating and difficult to counter there.
The first major problem I see with Aegislash is that it consistently gets annihilated in the face of specially offensive Pokemon. Keldeo in the rain is a perfect example- if you Swords Dance up against it you still can get OHKO'd by Hydro Pump, Shadow Sneak doesn't do nearly enough damage to stop it from smashing you back for far more damage, and if you try to power through it with some gimmick Specs or Band set it will always outspeed you and OHKO you with any water move it uses. At least Pokemon like Dragonite have the bulk to set up without using up a turn of momentum. Even a resisted hit like Specs Draco Meteor from Latios can OHKO Aegislash once it goes in attack form, so it's not like just setting up on a Pokemon it resists and attacking it is always a safe response.
Also, a lot of the physical Pokemon which Aegislash can supposedly switch in on can put Earthquake or a dark type move in their movepool, such as Terrakion, Lucario, and even Conkeldurr. They can all easily tank a hit from Aegislash and blow it up with EQ. The idea that Aegislash is going to be a competent physical wall once Gen 6 players learn to put this move on all of their physical sweepers is ridiculous. Finally, many defensive Pokemon that it could normally set up on, like Tentacruel or Vaporeon, can still cripple and outstall it after a Scald burn.
Simply put, Aegislash is just a speed bump in the face of any decently made offensive team, too easily crippled by burn against defensive teams, and too risky to use as a consistent defensive tank. It needs a lot of team support just to function ideally and is anything but unstoppable.
That being said, Aegislash can be a huge thorn in the side of Choice users, and a good defensive pivot if you absolutely NEED to avoid getting hit by rock/steel/fighting type attacks. Of course, people can predict you and go for the EQ on the switch, and a weakned Aegislash is practically a useless one. Honestly, I think this Pokemon will see more use in the 3-Pokemon random wifi battles because surprise sets are much more devastating and difficult to counter there.
Looking at some logs of people having tried Gourgeist on stall teams, I predict that he's going to be seen quite a bit.
I've been trying out Talonflame - it's ok. The real use for it is to switch it in on a pokemon that is scared of dying a priority Brave Bird and playing mind games with them between Brave Bird and Will-o-wisp on their switch-in. I didn't bother with a purely offensive set since I figured this would be his niche. I would use him at about the same frequency as I would have used Slowbro last gen. It's ok, but I don't think it's OU material.
I've been trying out Talonflame - it's ok. The real use for it is to switch it in on a pokemon that is scared of dying a priority Brave Bird and playing mind games with them between Brave Bird and Will-o-wisp on their switch-in. I didn't bother with a purely offensive set since I figured this would be his niche. I would use him at about the same frequency as I would have used Slowbro last gen. It's ok, but I don't think it's OU material.
Lucario won't be in a separate tier than MegaLucario. It's basically the same pokemon. Only if Lucarite (or whatever it's called, I can't remember) gets banned could something like that happen. Haxorus, Metagross and Hydreigon... dunno. Fairy-types actually help Hydreigon in that it gives it a lot of good partners for blocking fighting and bug attacks. I dunno enough about Haxorus or Metagross to say about them, but I feel like they're still really strong regardless.
But more on topic, I feel like Chesnaught has more potential than it's been given credit for. Good typing, good bulk, good movepool, cool ability that it can take advantage of. I think Hawlucha's stab and well-distributed stats give it some OU potential.
-Aegislash is gonna be OU for sure. It's not really a 1 trick pony like some are claiming either, random shadow balls can ruin the fun of dedicated physical walls.
-Talonflame is my 2nd candidate, this thing is annoying if you don't have something that resist Fire and Flying, Priority BraveBird/Acrobatics is ridiculous and destroys sweepers. This thing makes megas like Blaziken, Luke and Gengar cry.
-Dragalge is the best dragon introduced this gen imo. Adaptability Draco meteor just wrecks stuff and fairies can't easily come in in fear of a Sludge bomb. Dragon/Poison is also pretty good defensively so Dragalge can make great use of that bulk. Not sure if it's gonna make it to OU, but it certainly has the potential.
On the other hand I seriously doubt the OU status of Greninja, every single one I have faced has been underwhelming.
-Talonflame is my 2nd candidate, this thing is annoying if you don't have something that resist Fire and Flying, Priority BraveBird/Acrobatics is ridiculous and destroys sweepers. This thing makes megas like Blaziken, Luke and Gengar cry.
-Dragalge is the best dragon introduced this gen imo. Adaptability Draco meteor just wrecks stuff and fairies can't easily come in in fear of a Sludge bomb. Dragon/Poison is also pretty good defensively so Dragalge can make great use of that bulk. Not sure if it's gonna make it to OU, but it certainly has the potential.
On the other hand I seriously doubt the OU status of Greninja, every single one I have faced has been underwhelming.
Talonflame for sure. Rocks really don't stop it from doing what it does, and they're easier to blow away now anyway. It's immune to sticky web, spikes, and toxic spikes. It can also get a roost in against plenty of stally pokemons.
Greninja indeed just isn't worth it unless your HP Fire/Electric/Bug happens to be the one you needed. But then you'll go 10 matches where it was the wrong HP choice.
Greninja indeed just isn't worth it unless your HP Fire/Electric/Bug happens to be the one you needed. But then you'll go 10 matches where it was the wrong HP choice.
Another problem with Greninja is it's stats are just shy of being where they need to be. It's fast, but frail, and it's offenses aren't anything to write home about. It does, however, get a movepool full of interesting status moves, which is somewhat uncommon for water types. But in practice, it's gimmicky at best.
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