I don't think so. Both his STABs are great, but he'd get walled hard by steel or grass types with only one attacking move.
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Pokémon Venusaur
- Thread starter azureleaf17
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I think Venusaur has a lot of viability still, even with weather nerfs. Some say that it wont be as good with loss of leftovers/black sludge, but with giga drain and leech seed, it doesnt really need it. It has a pretty good Sp.Attk and defensive stats. In sun it becomes one of the fastest pokemon and can do some damage. The weather nerf has hurt it speed wise, only giving it a boost for a max of 4 turns. It's mega form does give it a second chance to do a lot. Thick Fat turns it into a tank that can take on most anything. The big question is moveset options and how it would sync up with a sun team or non weather team. I think the two big sets will be either a mixed attacker set with Sludge bomb, Giga Drain, Earthquake, and Growth/Sleep Powder or a staller seed type set with Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain, Leech Seed, Synthesis/Sleep Powder/Substitute.
The main factors into its effectiveness will be what is on the team to better help type coverage and when you choose to mega evolve.
The main factors into its effectiveness will be what is on the team to better help type coverage and when you choose to mega evolve.
I was toying around with a curse Mega Venusaur build earlier. With one defense boost was able to take a +2 Mega Mawiles Ice Punch with 47% HP after. If I had had leech seed up that would have been a 3HKO from that staggering attack stat. Play Rough would probably have been a 2HKO though. I think that showdown still showing ice attacks as super effective against mega Venusaur is screwing with opponents.
Personally I'm sold on it's viability as a tank. Biggest problem I've had so far is 4 move slot syndrome.
Personally I'm sold on it's viability as a tank. Biggest problem I've had so far is 4 move slot syndrome.
One thing to note about Mega Venusaur is that it is one of the best general Water- and Fairy-type counters in the game. Why is this? Well, lets look into common (or in Fairies case, coverage that has potential to be common) offensive moves used by both Water- and Fairy-types.
Water
For Water-types, Venusaur is one of the few Pokemon that has a resistance to Water that is also not weak to either Ice (thanks Thick Fat!) and Grass/Electric. For Fairy-types, Venusaur is one of the few Pokemon that has a resistance to Fairy that is not weak to Ground. In addition to having nice resistances, it also has the defensive stats, neutrality to hazards, Toxic immunity, and recovery to back up its ability to counter these threats.
I can easily see Mega Venusaur being a major player in any tier where there are a lot of powerful offensive Water- and Fairy-types.
Water
- Water (STAB)
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power (Grass or Electric)
- Fairy (STAB)
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Ground
For Water-types, Venusaur is one of the few Pokemon that has a resistance to Water that is also not weak to either Ice (thanks Thick Fat!) and Grass/Electric. For Fairy-types, Venusaur is one of the few Pokemon that has a resistance to Fairy that is not weak to Ground. In addition to having nice resistances, it also has the defensive stats, neutrality to hazards, Toxic immunity, and recovery to back up its ability to counter these threats.
I can easily see Mega Venusaur being a major player in any tier where there are a lot of powerful offensive Water- and Fairy-types.
Well, Azumarill is Water and Fairy and it does:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 74-87 (20.32 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Its best move, Double Edge, does:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 148-175 (40.65 - 48.07%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Not even a 2HKO. For shits and giggles:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 336-396 (92.3 - 108.79%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
Yup. Mega Venusaur is here to stay.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 74-87 (20.32 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Its best move, Double Edge, does:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 148-175 (40.65 - 48.07%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Not even a 2HKO. For shits and giggles:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 336-396 (92.3 - 108.79%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
Yup. Mega Venusaur is here to stay.
I can certainly see Azumarill facing some problems with Venusaur. High defense and being weak to grass type moves is certainly a bad match up for it. Even if it dealt in a pretty hard Double Edge or Return, Giga Drain would probably kill it in one, if not two hits. Venusaur will probably be a big threat to a lot of the fairy types that make it into OU. The only fairy type that will give it problems is probably Mega Mawile, but even then Vensaur could at least stall it with a SleepSeed if it's not running Earthquake or HP Fire.
What does everyone think the big threats to Venusaur/Mega Vensaur will really be this gen? I'd say Celebi and Latios/Latias for certain. Maybe Heatran since it's steel type. Other than that, I'm not sure how big the list would be.
Edit: Venusar's high defense, not Azumarill's heh.
You should note that Azumarill probably will not be using Double-Edge as there is little reason to. Choice Band Azumarill wants to be using Aqua Jet / Waterfall or Aqua Tail / Play Rough / Superpower (maybe Ice Punch somewhere in there), so there really isn't any room for Double-Edge at all. All of Azumarill's moves besides Superpower are very important, and Superpower is still important for hitting Ferrothorn. This means Mega Venusaur counters Azumarill even harder than the above poster was describing.
Mega Venusaur actually counters Azumarill just fine with a specially defensive spread:
Mega Venusaur is looking pretty solid so far from a few matches I've had. Grass/Poison with Thick Fat is actually a really good defensive typing. Now of course, defensive Mega Evolutions have two flaws: 1) Lack of Leftovers (although the same can be said about offensive Mega Evolutions lacking LO/CB/etc.) and 2) Can not counter certain threats effectively until it mega evolves, so it can't just immediately switch into whatever offensive threat and beat them.
My question for you guys is whether you should use a physically defensive Venusaur or specially defensive. I tried physically defensive with Synthesis / Energy Ball (could also use Giga Drain) / Sludge Bomb / Leech Seed (Sleep Powder is also a good option), and it worked pretty well, but sometimes I wondered whether it would be more successful with a specially defensive spread, or maybe even some kind of mixed EV spread.
Mega Venusaur actually counters Azumarill just fine with a specially defensive spread:
specially defensive mega venusaur:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 126-150 (34.61 - 41.2%) -- 73.34% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 112-132 (30.76 - 36.26%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
physically defensive mega venusaur:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Venusaur: 94-112 (25.82 - 30.76%) -- possible 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 84-99 (23.07 - 27.19%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 126-150 (34.61 - 41.2%) -- 73.34% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 112-132 (30.76 - 36.26%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
physically defensive mega venusaur:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Venusaur: 94-112 (25.82 - 30.76%) -- possible 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 84-99 (23.07 - 27.19%) -- possible 5HKO
Mega Venusaur is looking pretty solid so far from a few matches I've had. Grass/Poison with Thick Fat is actually a really good defensive typing. Now of course, defensive Mega Evolutions have two flaws: 1) Lack of Leftovers (although the same can be said about offensive Mega Evolutions lacking LO/CB/etc.) and 2) Can not counter certain threats effectively until it mega evolves, so it can't just immediately switch into whatever offensive threat and beat them.
My question for you guys is whether you should use a physically defensive Venusaur or specially defensive. I tried physically defensive with Synthesis / Energy Ball (could also use Giga Drain) / Sludge Bomb / Leech Seed (Sleep Powder is also a good option), and it worked pretty well, but sometimes I wondered whether it would be more successful with a specially defensive spread, or maybe even some kind of mixed EV spread.
Yeah I agree that Mega Vensaur is gonna be pretty great and will say that it will be OU. I did touch on the problem with mega evos a bit. I think Venusaur's recovery moves makes its lack of a held item a little concern. Really it comes down to switch ins and timing the mega evolve and sacrificing your speed boost assuming you run it on a sun team.You should note that Azumarill probably will not be using Double-Edge as there is little reason to. Choice Band Azumarill wants to be using Aqua Jet / Waterfall or Aqua Tail / Play Rough / Superpower (maybe Ice Punch somewhere in there), so there really isn't any room for Double-Edge at all. All of Azumarill's moves besides Superpower are very important, and Superpower is still important for hitting Ferrothorn. This means Mega Venusaur counters Azumarill even harder than the above poster was describing.
Mega Venusaur actually counters Azumarill just fine with a specially defensive spread:
specially defensive mega venusaur:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 126-150 (34.61 - 41.2%) -- 73.34% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 112-132 (30.76 - 36.26%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
physically defensive mega venusaur:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Venusaur: 94-112 (25.82 - 30.76%) -- possible 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 84-99 (23.07 - 27.19%) -- possible 5HKO
Mega Venusaur is looking pretty solid so far from a few matches I've had. Grass/Poison with Thick Fat is actually a really good defensive typing. Now of course, defensive Mega Evolutions have two flaws: 1) Lack of Leftovers (although the same can be said about offensive Mega Evolutions lacking LO/CB/etc.) and 2) Can not counter certain threats effectively until it mega evolves, so it can't just immediately switch into whatever offensive threat and beat them.
My question for you guys is whether you should use a physically defensive Venusaur or specially defensive. I tried physically defensive with Synthesis / Energy Ball (could also use Giga Drain) / Sludge Bomb / Leech Seed (Sleep Powder is also a good option), and it worked pretty well, but sometimes I wondered whether it would be more successful with a specially defensive spread, or maybe even some kind of mixed EV spread.
I would say spec it more for specially defensive since you'll want to try and withstand all you can with moves like Flamethrower and Ice Beam. Even with thick fat, it cant hurt to get an extra layer of protection to really maximize its walling potential.
How has running Venusaur been overall? It have any problems with mega evolving and becoming bulkier than regular Saur?
I think everyone is going about Venasaur this wrong this gen. Everyone seems to either think you have to be either tank or standard sun sweeper. But I think with the weather nerf a combo of these could become Venasaur's best option.
Imagine with the new weather nerf your weather inducer dies. Now you know you have a solid 3 turns of sun left so you bring out Venasuar and proceed to wreck until the sun runs out. Now what? Normally Venasaur becomes an easy revenge kill at this point by any decently fast offensive mon. But now Venesaur has the ability to transform from fast sweeper into bulky offensive mon and take a hit or two. I think by utilizing Venasaur's ability to transform from sweeper into bulky offense when need be is going to be it's, and perhaps even sun team's, saving grace along with defog's improved mechanics this gen. Which means sun teams could see a switch to more bulky offense style of play (along with the rest of the meta really). Venasaur, Heatran and Latias (which would serve as the defogger for the team with ease) already make a nice bulky core, and most Ninetales are defensive sets anyway.
Imagine with the new weather nerf your weather inducer dies. Now you know you have a solid 3 turns of sun left so you bring out Venasuar and proceed to wreck until the sun runs out. Now what? Normally Venasaur becomes an easy revenge kill at this point by any decently fast offensive mon. But now Venesaur has the ability to transform from fast sweeper into bulky offensive mon and take a hit or two. I think by utilizing Venasaur's ability to transform from sweeper into bulky offense when need be is going to be it's, and perhaps even sun team's, saving grace along with defog's improved mechanics this gen. Which means sun teams could see a switch to more bulky offense style of play (along with the rest of the meta really). Venasaur, Heatran and Latias (which would serve as the defogger for the team with ease) already make a nice bulky core, and most Ninetales are defensive sets anyway.
That was actually what i was planning doing when i make my gen 6 sun team. I mean why sacrifice it's speed at the beginning anyway? It'd be most effective to mega evolve it when sun runs out or you need it to post up defense.
With 100/122 attackin stats i honestly think saur will make an amazin mixed attacker than anything. Synthesis/leechseed, Giga drain, EQ, and sludge bomb. I can only think of Skarmory and Forrethorn can switch in freely on that. Even if chased out saur will do a heavy amount of damage b4 being chased away. I dont think he will make many 2 hit kos, but with some prediction he has pretty good shot of nailing somethin hard and coming in often.
Hes gonna need a good teammate to protect him though his weaknesses; pyschic and flying, oddly heattran is a perfect partner for him
Hes gonna need a good teammate to protect him though his weaknesses; pyschic and flying, oddly heattran is a perfect partner for him
Mixed is probably the best bet with HP Fire's recent nerf to 60 BP. I think running running it with Leech Seed is better than Synthesis since you can heal yourself a bit and do damage on top of a Giga Drain. Heatran, probably one of M-Saur's biggest threats, would be a great partner for it. It can resist some damage as well as absorb any fire attacks that would kill it. Maybe Greninja would work equally well since it can have protein as well as Water/Dark typing to block and psychic attacks sent Venusaur's way.
I'm not sure but Grassy Terrain would be possibly good for a Mega Saur stall set. Set up Grass and Leech Seed, then you can go to town on Giga Drains and sub whenever you get the chance. The only problem with that move set is the lack of coverage. There are probably other ways to use it beside that I'm sure.
I dont know what I think about Venusaur being OU, It is set up for to alot of things, Dragons Steels and Fires. While every thing is set up fodder for something in this game of ours, the things that Venusaur loses to are quite serious. I do think for a fact that it will be used in OU as it's probably the best Azumaril counter there is, but the fact still remains that it doesnt have the things that some other bulky grasses like Celebi do. There is a part of me that wants it to be lower tiered I admit but I think the competition going to be fierce for the standard metagame and Venusaur will fall by the way side.
It will certainly be good against Azumarill and other water types and those that are weak against grass and poison type moves. It will have problems with Fire types and Steel types, but it might be able to squeak by with good set up conditions and running EQ. It will have problems with Dragons though. Them being neutral to both grass and poison dont help matters, and the speed loss with M-Venusaur certainly doesn't help. It could possibly stall them out but I think it'd be better to just avoid them altogether. In my opinion, I think it'll be OU. It probably will be used exclusively on sun teams I think. Non weather will become more present since the weather nerf and use for Venusuar in general will decline. (I'll still totally use it for my sun team though. I love the big guy too much to not use it)
Dragons resist grass, and MegaVenusaur has the same speed stat as Venusaur. Unless you're talking about the loss of chlorophyll, but Venusaur's always been a good pokemon. Even without Chlorophyll it was a top-UU pokemon in fourth gen. It doesn't need to be outrunning Crobat to do it's job and do it well. And I think the fact that it probably is the best grass type in the game will likely secure it a place in OU or at least high UU with some niche use in OU.
mhm, I am kind of hoping he goes to UU, though I consider him strong. OU has alot of issues that if saur gets stuck there I feel like hes gonna have such a specific niche that it wont be all that fun to use him. Ive been running a bold full def EV mega saur. And a Choice band garchomp outrage= is still over 60% damage. All that tankiness in the world is great but he still gets 2 shotted by the beast power in OU. Thus limiting who he can enter in on.
I don't really think it has a 'specific' niche, though. Countering water, fairy, electric, fighting and lots of ground and rock types is pretty darn impressive, and something lots of teams could benefit from. Unless they start carrying flying or psychic coverage, they're going to not be able to do much to it, and then they'll take a power whip, sludge bomb, earthquake or giga drain to the face. Leave Outrage to the new fairy and steel types.
Yeah I meant the Chlorophyll loss when i was saying the speed loss heh. I probably should have clarified that. But yes I do think he's a great pokemon. Him dropping to high UU wouldn't necessarily be bad. He'd probably still be used in OU but like you said, only in niche teams. Dont have a lot of experience in UU but it'd add some good firepower and bulk to the tier.
That is a good point. Even with a high defense stat, you cant stop it from losing HP when it gets by a high powered attack.
Physically Defensive Megasaur definitely seems more effective, since it seems like most of the threats it switches into are physical, and it doesn't really need to worry about eating stray HP Ices and the like. My question to you is: don't you think running Earthquake would be a good idea, to take advantage of the fact that it's one of the best Swords Dance Mega Lucario counters? That would also deter Heatran from mindlessly switching into Venusaur.
Earthquake is definitely an effective option on Mega Venusaur, however, there isn't much room to use it. Synthesis + Leech Seed are both extremely useful for keeping Venusaur alive longer, and you definitely want your two STAB's. I suppose if you were to use Earthquake, you would use it over Leech Seed, but I personally like being able to set Leech Seed on whatever switches in to Mega Venusaur, then use the Leech Seed recovery as a cushion for the counter I send in.
Of course, if you really need a Mega Lucario counter, Earthquake is a very useful option.
Of course, if you really need a Mega Lucario counter, Earthquake is a very useful option.
Many pokes take nasty hits from EQ coverage:
With a negative nature and no atk investment (really half assed calcs using simulater but just to get point across) taken via http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/coverage
Vicitni takes 32-38%
Metagross 34%~41%
Jirachi 32-38%
Chandlure 56-64%
heattran 64-75%
jolteon 71-84%
magnezone 80-95%
Infernape 58~69%
Lucario 61~73%
toxicroak 58~69%
that being said tho its not a huge list of increased damage, but most of these would wall/set up/ or threaten venusaur otherwise. With a less defensive nature I bet saur could stand to go something like HP/ATK evs
Shame Saur doesnt get a 5th move, XD
With a negative nature and no atk investment (really half assed calcs using simulater but just to get point across) taken via http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/coverage
Vicitni takes 32-38%
Metagross 34%~41%
Jirachi 32-38%
Chandlure 56-64%
heattran 64-75%
jolteon 71-84%
magnezone 80-95%
Infernape 58~69%
Lucario 61~73%
toxicroak 58~69%
that being said tho its not a huge list of increased damage, but most of these would wall/set up/ or threaten venusaur otherwise. With a less defensive nature I bet saur could stand to go something like HP/ATK evs
Shame Saur doesnt get a 5th move, XD
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Aw yes the dreaded four moveslot syndrome. The bane of many a strong pokemon.
To get a bit off the topic, I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are on Venusaur's other team members might be and who would be a good advantage for it, as well as what role on a team (weather or regular) it might have.
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