One word: aegislash
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Pokémon Pinsir
- Thread starter Adonzo
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One word: aegislash
This is one of those Pokemon afflicted with 4MSS. I realized that I can be fairly comfortable with trying to T-Wave it with Ferrothorn since most players would use: (1) Swords Dance to make it surprisingly powerful with Return; (2) Return for a powerful STAB that unlike Earthquake, which also has a 100 base attack but no Pokemon has an immunity to, and essentially comes with a "free" life orb boost; (3) Quick Attack a form STAB priority to prevent it from being revenge killed; and (4) Close Combat/Earthquake for Steel and Rock coverage. It would seem that Quick Attack, for the reasons below, is the most dispensable move to fit in Substitute.
Still, it cannot sweep with Quick Attack at (+2), except for KOing naturally frail Pokemon such as the Tornadus Forms. Swords Dance, Life Orb Scizor's Bullet Punch has a Technician boost, which is more than 25 extra base attack (From Scizor's 130 to M-Pinsir's 155).
According to this, Flying + Ground/Fighting has excellent neutral coverage, and the raw power of a 2+ Return and Close Combat would make super-effective coverage supererogatory.
Huh? It seems like n00bs are primarily using this thing (or maybe I am the n00b (as I only had about 80 battles since the middle of August) who doesn't realize the relative merits of X-scissor over Return):
Why is Return only at 40%? Bug is not a good attacking type. X-Scissor doesn't even get the Aerilate boost or any nifty secondary effect, although it does get STAB.
Sub SD Pinsir seems underestimated and can be formidable with proper prediction.
I faced a Sub SD Garchomp that managed to get the Sub up and the +2 boost, and it is really intimidating against a team with no physical bulky phazer which must use a faster Pokemon or priority user to break the Sub. Unlike Garchomp whose attacks have notable drawbacks: such as the lock-in effect and subsequent confusion of Outrage, the immunity of Earthquake to Flying types, the weak power of Fire Fang, and the unreliability of Stone Edge; being able to use Return as its primary STAB attack allows Pinsir the flexibility to continue its sweep when it encounters a Pokemon that has a Flying resist by switching to its coverage move. Close Combat and Earthquake have the same drawbacks, but when they do not work due to an immunity or resistance, it can use Return instead of being forced into an Outrage (or Thrash in Pinsir's case). Thrash can also be used if one wants a ~17% power boost and doesn't mind the inflexibility.
What would be an optimal EV spread on a Jolly M-Pinsir? Obviously the 252 atk is needed, and the speed tier is notable for outspeeding Garchomp and base 100s, so you want high investment there, but looking into it, there isn't really anything relevant in the range of base 103 to 105 that isn't wrecked by Aerialate Quick Attack, and very little around base 85 that would make a difference for that first turn. This means you have 20 EVs that don't need to be thrown into speed in order to outrun Garchomp by 1 point.
Because of this, I would think that it would be best to throw these extra EVs into HP or Defenses, but I haven't run any calculations to see where these extra few points would be best. If there are any particular attacks that these few extra points in either defense would save a KO, then that could become a more optimal EV spread. At the same time, though, I'm unsure of any likely Scarfed pokemon that would outrun 334 speed but not 339, which could result in maxing speed being a better spread.
Because of this, I would think that it would be best to throw these extra EVs into HP or Defenses, but I haven't run any calculations to see where these extra few points would be best. If there are any particular attacks that these few extra points in either defense would save a KO, then that could become a more optimal EV spread. At the same time, though, I'm unsure of any likely Scarfed pokemon that would outrun 334 speed but not 339, which could result in maxing speed being a better spread.
Seeing as Pinsir is quite the omnipresent threat, don't you think it'd be more prudent to just max speed in case of speed ties? Unless you have a team full of Pinsir stoppers or the defensive evs do something wondrous, I just don't see the point tbh
So, does a neutral Return outdamage a SE Earthquake from M-Pinsir?
And yeah, I'd go with max Speed to Speed tie with base 105s and outspeed neutral-Natured 115s.
And yeah, I'd go with max Speed to Speed tie with base 105s and outspeed neutral-Natured 115s.
Thing is, this situation only happen against fire and poison types. Electric, Steel, and Rock may be more threatening or common than the first two. Those 3 are Flying's only resists, which is why the coverage is a good.
But even still...
102*1.5*1.3=198.9... so yes, 200>198.9, but just barely so it doesn't matter much against say, Arcanine or Tentacruel.
would mega punch/kick be viable? Has the same power as thrash but the accuracy....
No , Return/frustrate hits at 102 thanks to the miracles of PS team-builder, not to mention about Trash.
but mega kick hits 120 i believe
Good point. I'll be using Return more often, as it seems.
Anyone know of good Spinners to pair with M-Pinsir? I was thinking Excadrill, Tentacruel, and normal Blastoise could be. I'm not sure if a Defogger would be acceptable to pair with M-Pinsir, hence most of them share weaknesses with it.
Anyone know of good Spinners to pair with M-Pinsir? I was thinking Excadrill, Tentacruel, and normal Blastoise could be. I'm not sure if a Defogger would be acceptable to pair with M-Pinsir, hence most of them share weaknesses with it.
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What abilities has everyone been testing out, and how successful have each been? Moxie seems the least situational of the three. I find myself not wanting to MEvo immediately -every now and then- because sometimes I can revenge kill and switch out without wanting to take additional SR damage if their hazard setter is still alive. Just wondering how often people that run hyper cutter or mold breaker actually get to use either ability and how much of an advantage it gives them
Sweetiepie (my pinsir) has hyper cutter and it's a godsend because of all the intimidaters out there. Also, once Pokebank rolls around, there will be even more intimidaters that can really debuff him before he gets setup. In the long run I think Hyper Cutter will be the most advantageous.
Once you are Mega though there is nothing you can do about those intimidaters. Moxie is good to get a quick +1 if you can kill something off real quick. I think both abilities have their niches, I like Hyper Cutter, but honestly feel Moxie is better on the long haul.
From this, are we missing any counters? I've been running rocky helmet skarm and it is by and large the best acceptable counter to pinsir (as I don't have to stick it in my back pocket until pinsir is gone to avoid too much residual damage) but these are really off the wall counters. Checks aren't really the objective for me, counters are far more important.
Huh, so Mega Pinsir apparently hits (slightly) harder than MegaKang with Return. Neat benchmark.
0+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 217-258 (63.6 - 75.6%)
0+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 229-271 (67.1 - 79.4%)
Anyhow, I'm having great experiences with Mega Pinsir, but I'm realizing it's hard to justify running it over MegaKang when they do very similar things, and Kang doesn't get screwed by Rocks and Talonflame(as bad)
The consistent priority and slightly higher speed is definitely nice, though.
0+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 217-258 (63.6 - 75.6%)
0+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 229-271 (67.1 - 79.4%)
Anyhow, I'm having great experiences with Mega Pinsir, but I'm realizing it's hard to justify running it over MegaKang when they do very similar things, and Kang doesn't get screwed by Rocks and Talonflame(as bad)
The consistent priority and slightly higher speed is definitely nice, though.
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 166-198 (41 - 49%)
for the lols....
he is right, Pinsir does hit harder than Kangaskhan. his priority though
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 87-103 (21.5 - 25.4%)
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 67-79 (16.5 - 19.5%)
again it doesn't make a difference much (Also bad power perspective, they are hitting a Groudon lol)
Pinsir does seem pretty powerful, but he's getting overshadowed alot right now. if you want a direct comparison to Kanga
Pinsir
Stronger Return
Flying Type Stab>Normal Type Stab.
Slightly Faster.
More reliable Priority
Isn't weak to all hazards
Hits most common Ghosts hard with EQ/Return, thus is more resistant to Burns (Outside Sableye, who if he becomes standard, shits on the whole physical tier not named Absol or a Fire Type)
only weak to Rocks, but is very weak after one switch in.
Kanga
Breaks subs
Bulkier
isn't Rocks weak
as its boosting move is a decent coverage move, Kanga is more diverse than Standard Pinsir
stronger priority.
easier to set up.
isn't weak to Talonflame or hit at all by Aegislash's main stabs (As much as it hates Sacred Sword)
i personally feel Kangas Pros are better and Cons easier to deal with (Of course they are, we all know that) but should Kanga go to Ubers, Pinsir could easily fill the Void. other wise, just run Kanga.
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 166-198 (41 - 49%)
for the lols....
he is right, Pinsir does hit harder than Kangaskhan. his priority though
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 87-103 (21.5 - 25.4%)
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 67-79 (16.5 - 19.5%)
again it doesn't make a difference much (Also bad power perspective, they are hitting a Groudon lol)
Pinsir does seem pretty powerful, but he's getting overshadowed alot right now. if you want a direct comparison to Kanga
Pinsir
Stronger Return
Flying Type Stab>Normal Type Stab.
Slightly Faster.
More reliable Priority
Isn't weak to all hazards
Hits most common Ghosts hard with EQ/Return, thus is more resistant to Burns (Outside Sableye, who if he becomes standard, shits on the whole physical tier not named Absol or a Fire Type)
only weak to Rocks, but is very weak after one switch in.
Kanga
Breaks subs
Bulkier
isn't Rocks weak
as its boosting move is a decent coverage move, Kanga is more diverse than Standard Pinsir
stronger priority.
easier to set up.
isn't weak to Talonflame or hit at all by Aegislash's main stabs (As much as it hates Sacred Sword)
i personally feel Kangas Pros are better and Cons easier to deal with (Of course they are, we all know that) but should Kanga go to Ubers, Pinsir could easily fill the Void. other wise, just run Kanga.
Has anybody considered using pre-mega Pinsir as a Rotom-W lure with mold breaker earthquake? Seems a viable option for teams that hate it, since it's everywhere at the moment.
The problem with Mold Breaker is the fact that it reveals itself at the start of the turn when Pinsir is sent in. So, if you're thinking of getting a surprise KO on a Rotom switchin, it's not gonna happen unless your opponent is really, really inattentive.
Not to mention that Rotom-A has just one point higher Speed than regular Pinsir.
I just use Mold Breaker Excadrill to handle Rotom-A and provide Spinning.
Most Rotom don't run max Speed, though, and their moves and item can give it away so you don't have to guess.
Jolly with 232 or 252 Speed EVs. 232 is for outspeeding max speed Garchomp, while 252 is for speed ties with other Mega Pinsir. Without Jolly you lose out to Landorus, Volcarona, Tentacruel, Celebi and Salamence, which Mega Pinsir has no right to lose against.
If you want to go Adamant to hit hard with Flying priority, Talonflame simply does it better. Mega Pinsir is all about abusing that STAB Return, which as I've mentioned before, hits harder than Earthquake from Life Orb Groudon.
'Talonflame does it better', ha ha ha. That makes absolutely no sense. Pinsir uses priority for its own sweeping, not to check faster threats and revenge kill. I still wouldn't run Adamant, though, with so many Pokemon like Garchomp, Genesect, Charizard being extremely common and sitting right in Pinsir's speed tier. And of course, Mega Kangaskhan. If I'm going to put a Mega on my team at all, it'd better not lose to that She-Hulk abomination.
Also, I've seen EQ touted as the coverage move of choice for Pinsir, and I can't say I agree with it. Having Close Combat on hand has allowed my Pinsir to sweep through several Skarmory and many Rotom-W. It hits harder on many of the things you'd want Earthquake for and you'll never have to worry about a floating switch-in. Aegislash is a different matter, and I feel it is is much easier to play around than Pokemon like Skarm and Rotom-W who can manhandle your momentum with every free turn. I feel that +2 Return is adequate if you're forced to face down Aegislash.
Also, I've seen EQ touted as the coverage move of choice for Pinsir, and I can't say I agree with it. Having Close Combat on hand has allowed my Pinsir to sweep through several Skarmory and many Rotom-W. It hits harder on many of the things you'd want Earthquake for and you'll never have to worry about a floating switch-in. Aegislash is a different matter, and I feel it is is much easier to play around than Pokemon like Skarm and Rotom-W who can manhandle your momentum with every free turn. I feel that +2 Return is adequate if you're forced to face down Aegislash.
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