I honestly don't have much of an issue with it, but I do use it on one of my teams and I will occasionally sweep with it. I think that Kanga suffers without speed support, though, and because of that I don't think he's quite uber worthy. I know sucker punch mitigates this to a degree but I don't think it's enough to make it uber.
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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I'll just repost this, people seem to doubt cofagrigus's ability to wall mega kang.
You didn't factor in that cofagrigus is bold. You also can't say that it's a 2HKO since mega-kang loses parental bond the next turn. Most people have turned to jolly these days anyway.
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 156-186 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 104-124 (32.5 - 38.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Fixed your calcs there.
Yeh, thanks XP, forgot too put on boostig nature. But it only needs a little residual damage going, a layer of spikes and stealth rock, and Cofag is a goner. I also edited my post with calcs for Mega Lucario and Mega Pinsir, both which practically one hit ko the guy. Forgot bold, so I'm gonna repost them.
Edit:
+2 252+ Atk Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 230-272 (71.8 - 85%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 300-354 (93.7 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Basically, Cofag is not a good physical wall, when common sweepers just plow through with little too no residual damage.
And so? You just added 1 counter to a impressive list of... 2 counters. That doesn't change the fact that MegaKanga is broken.
And when you do the math: 48.7 + 32.5 + 12.5 = 93.7%
The 12.5 is from Stealth Rock, but that's just assuming you get absolute minimal damage, a bit more damage than that, and the Cofagrigus in question is screwed. It's also certainly possible for Cofagrigus to have taken prior damage, or the Kanghaskhan switches out after a single Crunch.
So no, Cofagrigus is not a reliable counter to Kanghaskhan.
Nah, there was only one solid counter to begin with, and that's sableye more or less. Adding another to the list, especially with a beast like mega-kang, is pretty impressive. I don't think anobody before me had the calcs to back up that cofagrigus was a solid counter, why don't you try to find another one if it's no big deal?
Going by that logic, any threat that isn't pursuit weak has no counters.
You know what's creepy? ...You know what's super freaking creepy? This thread has been analogous to Mega Kang herself. When this discussion hit the Smogon "battlefield," those who were anti-ban tried to throw in what they thought were foolproof "counter"arguments, only to see them destroyed and used as "set up" opportunities for the pro-banners.
I tell you, man, it gives me chills.
I tell you, man, it gives me chills.
I would like to point out that if having no counters was a sufficient argument for a ban, then Gothitelle and Dugtrio would be banned and Wobba would still be uber because by the definition of "able to switch into and scare out" that's virtually impossible. I would additionally like to point out that technically speaking Kee Berry Mandibuzz can switch in on PuP and threaten to OHKO with Foul Play, and indeed anything faster with STAB Foul Play that doesn't die to Sucker Punch (given that it'll resist due to Dark typing, that's almost all of them, even Zoroark can cop the Sucker Punch and OHKO back) can force it out on revenge, not just Keldeo et al (Not that this particularly makes it balanced either). Additionally:
+2 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pinsir: 125-148 (88.6 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO - Without the +nature, it fails to OHKO and with any defense investment from Pinsir it also fails to OHKO. So Mega Pinsir potentially has a shot (besides which it can foil Sucker Punch with a Quick Attack off a superior Speed stat, easily OHKOs with a strong Fighting move, and takes a pittance from PuP)
Additionally, Gengar can switch in on anything that isn't Crunch (and if they do use Crunch you can just chuck in Lucario for free) and force it out or trade with it directly via Destiny Bond. Anything faster that can phaze and has Focus Blast (Noivern is a good example) can come in on PuP, take minimal damage, and then phaze it out on Sucker Punch or destroy it on any other move.
Finally, Full Defense Aggron can also handle Mega Kanga well with minimum prediction. It takes an absolute pittance from Return, especially pre-mega:
+2 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aggron: 33-39 (18.6 - 22%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 54-64 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- 51% chance to 3HKO
And after Mega Evolving soaks Power-up Punch with equal ease:
+2 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Aggron: 43-52 (24.2 - 29.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
Unfortunately Kangaskhan is JUST heavy enough to avoid the 100 damage from Heavy Slam, but you can easily phaze it out with Roar or simply go for the kill:
4 Atk Aggron Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 78-92 (43 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
While you can't get much better than 2HKO with SR, Even +4 PuP is not a threat, especially when Aggron came in resisting SR:
+4 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 64-76 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Two uses of Metal Burst are even an option, unless I'm badly misreading the total damage from that would be ((43 ~ 52) + (64 ~ 76)) * 1.5 which comes up at a minimum of around 160, with Mega Kanga's 4 EV HP being 181 this is very likely to KO even without SR (and certain with it).
Additionally, it's possible to manipulate the fact that PuP is very obviously the best move available thanks to the boost it gives to bring in something else for free (Gengar, say). The only thing Aggron really has to fear is coming in unevolved on Power-up Punch, which while it still has the 4x weakness will obviously mangle it horribly. Fire Punch/Drain Punch variants also have some slightly more favourable outcomes, but lacking Crunch leaves it wide open for Ghost stall.
That said, the fact that there aren't any HARD counters does say something about the situation. The fact is, you can throw out Mega Kanga without too much thought (on revenge if nothing else) and your opponent HAS to rely on prediction because Mega Kanga almost certainly has a winning move against every Pokemon you've got. While I stand by my opinion that there are way more Pokemon that can beat Mega Kanga with decent prediction, I'm reasonably confident from all the arguments made here that there are none that can beat it without any prediction, which means that even assuming perfect prediction you need two teamslots to deal with the two different predictive scenarios. Given the uncertainty you probably need three in case you mispredict or they outpredict or even you just need one of the anti-Kanga brigade to deal with something else.
To sum up, there are more soft answers (checks, I guess, but not JUST checks) than people think (Musketeers, Infernape, Mienshao, Mega Luke, Scarf Breloom, Scarf Luke (lol), Gengar, Noivern, Zoroark, Liepard (also lol), Weavile, Sableye, Mandibuzz (but only just), Volcarona (dodgy luck-wise, though), Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn, Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Rocky Helmet Skarmory, Cofagrigus, Froslass (is very weak but can guarantee a hit at least, bringing him into priority range), Aggron, etc), but still not enough to make up for the lack of hard answers since you need multiple soft answers in order to prevent it from mangling your team, even accounting for the fact that predicted Sucker Punches are a free switch-in. As such, I think I'll throw my support behind a quickban since I wouldn't want to have to build a team with three of these Pokemon on it in order to succeed.
+2 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pinsir: 125-148 (88.6 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO - Without the +nature, it fails to OHKO and with any defense investment from Pinsir it also fails to OHKO. So Mega Pinsir potentially has a shot (besides which it can foil Sucker Punch with a Quick Attack off a superior Speed stat, easily OHKOs with a strong Fighting move, and takes a pittance from PuP)
Additionally, Gengar can switch in on anything that isn't Crunch (and if they do use Crunch you can just chuck in Lucario for free) and force it out or trade with it directly via Destiny Bond. Anything faster that can phaze and has Focus Blast (Noivern is a good example) can come in on PuP, take minimal damage, and then phaze it out on Sucker Punch or destroy it on any other move.
Finally, Full Defense Aggron can also handle Mega Kanga well with minimum prediction. It takes an absolute pittance from Return, especially pre-mega:
+2 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aggron: 33-39 (18.6 - 22%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 54-64 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- 51% chance to 3HKO
And after Mega Evolving soaks Power-up Punch with equal ease:
+2 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Aggron: 43-52 (24.2 - 29.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
Unfortunately Kangaskhan is JUST heavy enough to avoid the 100 damage from Heavy Slam, but you can easily phaze it out with Roar or simply go for the kill:
4 Atk Aggron Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 78-92 (43 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
While you can't get much better than 2HKO with SR, Even +4 PuP is not a threat, especially when Aggron came in resisting SR:
+4 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 64-76 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Two uses of Metal Burst are even an option, unless I'm badly misreading the total damage from that would be ((43 ~ 52) + (64 ~ 76)) * 1.5 which comes up at a minimum of around 160, with Mega Kanga's 4 EV HP being 181 this is very likely to KO even without SR (and certain with it).
Additionally, it's possible to manipulate the fact that PuP is very obviously the best move available thanks to the boost it gives to bring in something else for free (Gengar, say). The only thing Aggron really has to fear is coming in unevolved on Power-up Punch, which while it still has the 4x weakness will obviously mangle it horribly. Fire Punch/Drain Punch variants also have some slightly more favourable outcomes, but lacking Crunch leaves it wide open for Ghost stall.
That said, the fact that there aren't any HARD counters does say something about the situation. The fact is, you can throw out Mega Kanga without too much thought (on revenge if nothing else) and your opponent HAS to rely on prediction because Mega Kanga almost certainly has a winning move against every Pokemon you've got. While I stand by my opinion that there are way more Pokemon that can beat Mega Kanga with decent prediction, I'm reasonably confident from all the arguments made here that there are none that can beat it without any prediction, which means that even assuming perfect prediction you need two teamslots to deal with the two different predictive scenarios. Given the uncertainty you probably need three in case you mispredict or they outpredict or even you just need one of the anti-Kanga brigade to deal with something else.
To sum up, there are more soft answers (checks, I guess, but not JUST checks) than people think (Musketeers, Infernape, Mienshao, Mega Luke, Scarf Breloom, Scarf Luke (lol), Gengar, Noivern, Zoroark, Liepard (also lol), Weavile, Sableye, Mandibuzz (but only just), Volcarona (dodgy luck-wise, though), Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn, Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Rocky Helmet Skarmory, Cofagrigus, Froslass (is very weak but can guarantee a hit at least, bringing him into priority range), Aggron, etc), but still not enough to make up for the lack of hard answers since you need multiple soft answers in order to prevent it from mangling your team, even accounting for the fact that predicted Sucker Punches are a free switch-in. As such, I think I'll throw my support behind a quickban since I wouldn't want to have to build a team with three of these Pokemon on it in order to succeed.
LordRandomness It's a combination of not having counters and destroying everything in sight.
Is it just me or should Cofagrigus not even be brought up as a counter to Mega Kangaskhan? It's relevance in XY OU is pretty much non-existant aside from possibly beating Mega Kangaskhan 1 vs 1, but even then you'd much rather run Sableye (which is still not that great of a pokemon if you ask me). A weakened Mega Kangaskhan can be revenge killed by CB Dragonite or CB Talonflame, as well as Breloom, Conkeldurr and Mega Lucario. Rocky Helmet Skarmory and Ferrothorn generally perform very well against it. Bulky Rocky Helmet Garchomp can take it down as well, but has to sacrifice all its health in the process. In general, Scarfed Fighting types with enough power can revenge kill Mega Kangaskhan reliably. Scarfed Hydreigon is guaranteed to outspeed and resists Sucker Punch, so it can get of a Focus Blast and kill a weakened Mega Kangaskhan. Scarf Landorus-T with Superpower achieves similar results. Aside from these, you're gonna have to dig pretty deep, only to find unviable pokemon like Cofagrigus and Dusclops.
metal burst does horrible damage, you're better off using counter on Megaggron, and if Megaggron can't even 2 hit KO Khan reliably without counter then it's not doing anything but being set up bait and then there's EQ
To be honest I don't think sableye is even a counter, just a decent check. Terrakion is a counter IMO.
No. I have no idea how you got pursuit out of the equation, but something like Breloom, who is Pursuit resistant, has a perfectly good counter in Celebi. But anyways, all that I'm saying is that all that Kangaskhan has to use Crunch on the switch to Cofagrigus, which, in my opinion, isn't that hard of a predict (and besides, predicting is a horrible argument for both sides). After the one Parental Bond Crunch and SR, Kangaskhan has a good chance to KO with the next Crunch, even if the Cofagrigus hasn't even taken any prior damage. Or, it can take a safer option and switch to something that deals with Cofagrigus, and simply wait for the next time to catch Cofagrigus on the switch. And what are Cofagrigus's only two forms of recovery? Rest and Pain Split, both of which are unreliable, leaving Cofagrigus incapacitated or relying on other Pokemon to restore health, respectfully.
Which is why I truthfully state that Cofagrigus is not a good counter to Kangaskhan. (Note that I never talked about Cofagrigus's position in OU nor its competitive value).
Take into account you're using normal Kangashkan for your calcs, not MegaKanga.
Dude, we just came trough this last page!!!! Do you want to make me do the calcs again or can you please, try to read before posting nonsense?
Cofagrigus doesn't work. If hazards are up it dies, if khan is set up it dies. At worst you switch after damaging cofag, to a fire type who sponges willo. After the. Rest, cofag can't come in again lest. it try its luck in a sleep talk roulette.
What do you mean ''By that logic''? He just added up the numbers too show Cofag, like any other mega Kang counter, is extremely shaky if it's name is not Sableye. Honestly, if you check my calcs in the previous post, you'll see Cofag is, in general, and awful wall, being freakin One hit koed by +2 Aerilate Pinsir's Return.
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 334-396 (87.8 - 104.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not at all, Chesnaught is one hit koed after two power up punches.
Wut? No, unless Guts or Flare Boost is present, your attack will still be halved, even though the move would be 140 BP, it still wouldn't be enough, WoW isn't that occasional, and running a 70 BP move over 102 BP move only for a situational WoW isn't that good, shouldn't be used IMO.
Also, if MK is burned, you just simply PuP, wasting one turn but bringing your attack to normal. Mega Khan can also surpass T-Wave's speed drop because of Sucker Punch, it can also pass poison by simply switching. It isn't that hard, Mega Kangaskhan will occasionally provide a problem for the opponent, it is a huge threat in many ways, and will always be a problem to the opponent, if Mega Khan had 3 solid checks, putting them on the same team won't stop Mega Khan, because you forgot about the 5 other team members, and it all it's checks are easily defeated by PuP, for Example Rocky Helmet Ferrrathorn only needs PuP + EQ
Physically Defensive Ferrathorn:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 84-102 (23.8 - 28.9%) -- 96.8% chance to 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 208-246 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Specially Defensive Ferrathron:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 114-135 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 95.2% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 276-325 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Kandaskhan also forces some random pokes to carry Rocky Helmet, I literally; over battle-spot; battles someone with Rocky Helmet Scolipede, Rock Helmet Spiritomb, and Rocky Helmet Gyarodas. I mean I understand Ferrathorn, maybe even RestTalk Garchomp, but Gyarods?! and Scolipede?!
EDIT: Mega Pinsir's Return goes to about 198 BP, ofc Cofagrigus will die from +2 Mega Pinsir Return, a lot of things will do.
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 322-381 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Why are people referring to Cofragrigus like pain split an will o wisp are NOT on his set? They absolutely are essential to his utility. I don't give no fucks they're clicking crunch on turn two, I'm pain splitting back up to a point where I can easily burn it.
Clearly it's way too centralizing for it to be OU. Nobody (almost nobody) even cared about cofa until this was brought up (that means kanga is centralizing, wow)
Just think about the stats and ability:
1. 252 Neutral nature + Parental Bond gives it way more attack than a fully invested, positive natured Deoxys-A (base 180!). This is at +0..
2. Parental bond gives it a 70 BP Swords Dance, or a 200 Damage seismic toss.
3. It has 105/100/100 defenses (more than jirachi!).
4. It has sucker punch, the most powerful priority move in the game bar Gale Wings Brave Bird / Acrobatics.
5. It has a decent base 100 speed tier.
6. It has great (perfect) coverage in fight/dark/ground/normal.
7. It breaks sashes, sturdy.
So you got more attack than deoxys, more bulk than jirachi, the same speed as jirachi, only one super effective move against it, perfect neutral coverage, a 70 BP SD, and the ability to break sashes and sturdy.
Ban it.
Just think about the stats and ability:
1. 252 Neutral nature + Parental Bond gives it way more attack than a fully invested, positive natured Deoxys-A (base 180!). This is at +0..
2. Parental bond gives it a 70 BP Swords Dance, or a 200 Damage seismic toss.
3. It has 105/100/100 defenses (more than jirachi!).
4. It has sucker punch, the most powerful priority move in the game bar Gale Wings Brave Bird / Acrobatics.
5. It has a decent base 100 speed tier.
6. It has great (perfect) coverage in fight/dark/ground/normal.
7. It breaks sashes, sturdy.
So you got more attack than deoxys, more bulk than jirachi, the same speed as jirachi, only one super effective move against it, perfect neutral coverage, a 70 BP SD, and the ability to break sashes and sturdy.
Ban it.
Actually it's been confirmed that Facade is no longer effected by burn's attack. It's not a good option, but it's still there.
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