The offensive pressure deo-s supplies is MUCH more than deo-d could ever dream. Deo-s somewhat unpredictability also pairs nicely in the deoSharp core. Which is part of the reason he's up for testing:his offensive possibilities on top of his hazards capability. And not trying to sound mean, but this isn't the place to talk about a possible deo-dsharp core.
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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
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I probably won't be voting this time, but I'll throw out my two cents, which are pretty easy to disagree with.
I feel that... None of these suspects deserve a ban. None of them.
Mega Lucario is good at setting up, has great typing, stats that rival Arceus, yadda yadda. Mega Lucario is also unable to conquer opposing fighting types, especially those with Mach Punch. Conkeldurr kills it with Drain Punch, obviously, and it can beat it also with two Mach Punches. Lucario does 71.4 - 84.5% damage to a 252 HP Conkeldurr with Close Combat, but that lowers its defense, allowing Mach Punch to do 90.3 - 107.4% damage back to Lucario, which is a 43.8% chance of a OHKO (56.3% after rocks). If Conkeldurr comes in on the set-up, it can kill Mega Lucario after a bit of residual damage. Mega-Heracross, the mega that I've been supporting this generation, also can kill Lucario with ease. After a swords dance, Close Combat cannot kill Mega-Heracross, while Close Combat (or even Arm Thrust) gets the OHKO without any set-up. What else can kill Mega Lucario? Scarfed Pokemon. Scarfed Heatran, for example, OHKOs Lucario using Lava Plume without any investments in special attack. Assuming it switches in on any move other than Close Combat, Heatran will get the kill. Gourgeist, a Pokemon I like to use, can switch in on Close Combat or Extreme Speed and use Will-O-Wisp. Ice Punch isn't even a OHKO, it merely 3HKOs.
Lucario is tough, Lucario is very difficult to best. There are ways, though, and teams can easily adapt to this. There are plenty of methods to beating it.
What I'm saying is, Lucario is not unstoppable. That means it should be okay in OU. Blissey completely walls special attackers, but since there are physical attackers, it is not unstoppable. Ubers are unstoppable in OU, which is why they are not in OU. I'm really breaking this down more than I need to, but I want to ensure that my point is received.
Deoxys-S? I have not had problems with Deoxys-S. It is awesome at setting up hazards, but there are other Pokemon that are great at removing them. Defog is very popular, so threats are much more easily removed. Deoxys-S cannot help but be set-up on by other Pokemon, methinks. There's the attacking version of it, but it isn't able to defeat other sweepers. Deoxys-S has the ability to set up hazards, easily removed, or get the first hit with a diverse moveset. What I find most threatening is trying to guess what moves it will have, but it only takes one or two moves to find out completely. Brave Bird, on a jolly banded Talonflame, has a 81.3% chance at a OHKO. I find that incredible. Deoxys-S cannot usually survive the most used priority move in the metagame. Factor in rocks and it never can survive it. If you lead with something able to OHKO the Deoxys-S, then I think it won't be able to set up. On Aegislash (Blade form), Shadow Sneak barely doesn't OHKO. However, nothing that Deoxys-S has can kill this Aegislash back. Deoxys-S is not bulky or powerful enough to function as a sweeper.
That is not what Deoxys-S is, though, is it? He's a revenge killer, or a sweeper. I believe that a strategic player would use their Pokemon in a way to conserve what could kill Deoxys-S, which only allows it to do a decent amount of damage to a single Pokemon, which kills the Deoxys-S in that turn. Or, if it's a defensive team, it would either taunt, defog, or kill using a couple attacks without much of a problem.
Deoxys-S is not unstoppable. It is very stoppable.
Genesect is the only one of these suspects that I'm guilty of using. I've been using an expert belt set, and I've been impressed with its sweeping and walling abilities (By walling, I mean switching in on a fairy and requiring it to switch). Genesect is incredibly diverse and powerful, and has a difficult type. There are very few flaws in this cannon-bug, but here they are, in list-form:
~4x weak to fire
~Not incredibly fast
~Can be walled, but difficult to predict
~Only functions as offensive
~No priority
So, to narrow it down, Genesect can only fight. That is its only ability. Deoxys-S can set up hazards, and Mega Lucario can use priority or functionally use substitutes. Genesect's only way to be faster than the average foe is via choice scarf. Otherwise, it has 99 base speed, which is possibly the most unfortunate speed in the game (Except that it's a nudge faster than Hydreigon). How can you live an attack by him and kill it in one shot, though, before it kills you? Well, fire types have an easy time dealing with Genesect, as it never has anything super-effective, and relies on moves that could be possibly beneficial to the opponent. For example, Heatran. Heatran is arguably the best counter to Genesect. Very few carry fighting moves, let alone anything stronger against it than Thunderbolt. You can switch in on Flamethrower and sweep with Lava Plume after, which is a move that nothing likes switching into besides another Heatran. Blissey can wall some forms of Genesect and paralyze it, and even set up a wish or SR. Water types usually have an okay time with Genesect, and can kill it with Hydro Pump or Surf. There's a few ways to deal with it, but obviously, determining the version of Genesect is key to defeating it.
Genesect is a stellar Pokemon, as are the other two suspects. I don't see why it should be banned, though, even if it is very useful. It fits in any team like a puzzle piece, and it can sweep teams with no set up, but it, like the others, is stoppable. To build a team is to factor in all major threats and focus on how to deal with them. If a player isn't able to use a Heatran, then I believe that is the fault of the player, not Genesect.
I haven't played here for a long time, so my opinion may be a bit strange, but I have a ~1500 rank on the OU ladder, so I think I can at least share what I think.
[EDIT]: Thought I'd post this just so that you know I'm not lying:
I feel that... None of these suspects deserve a ban. None of them.
Mega Lucario is good at setting up, has great typing, stats that rival Arceus, yadda yadda. Mega Lucario is also unable to conquer opposing fighting types, especially those with Mach Punch. Conkeldurr kills it with Drain Punch, obviously, and it can beat it also with two Mach Punches. Lucario does 71.4 - 84.5% damage to a 252 HP Conkeldurr with Close Combat, but that lowers its defense, allowing Mach Punch to do 90.3 - 107.4% damage back to Lucario, which is a 43.8% chance of a OHKO (56.3% after rocks). If Conkeldurr comes in on the set-up, it can kill Mega Lucario after a bit of residual damage. Mega-Heracross, the mega that I've been supporting this generation, also can kill Lucario with ease. After a swords dance, Close Combat cannot kill Mega-Heracross, while Close Combat (or even Arm Thrust) gets the OHKO without any set-up. What else can kill Mega Lucario? Scarfed Pokemon. Scarfed Heatran, for example, OHKOs Lucario using Lava Plume without any investments in special attack. Assuming it switches in on any move other than Close Combat, Heatran will get the kill. Gourgeist, a Pokemon I like to use, can switch in on Close Combat or Extreme Speed and use Will-O-Wisp. Ice Punch isn't even a OHKO, it merely 3HKOs.
Lucario is tough, Lucario is very difficult to best. There are ways, though, and teams can easily adapt to this. There are plenty of methods to beating it.
What I'm saying is, Lucario is not unstoppable. That means it should be okay in OU. Blissey completely walls special attackers, but since there are physical attackers, it is not unstoppable. Ubers are unstoppable in OU, which is why they are not in OU. I'm really breaking this down more than I need to, but I want to ensure that my point is received.
Deoxys-S? I have not had problems with Deoxys-S. It is awesome at setting up hazards, but there are other Pokemon that are great at removing them. Defog is very popular, so threats are much more easily removed. Deoxys-S cannot help but be set-up on by other Pokemon, methinks. There's the attacking version of it, but it isn't able to defeat other sweepers. Deoxys-S has the ability to set up hazards, easily removed, or get the first hit with a diverse moveset. What I find most threatening is trying to guess what moves it will have, but it only takes one or two moves to find out completely. Brave Bird, on a jolly banded Talonflame, has a 81.3% chance at a OHKO. I find that incredible. Deoxys-S cannot usually survive the most used priority move in the metagame. Factor in rocks and it never can survive it. If you lead with something able to OHKO the Deoxys-S, then I think it won't be able to set up. On Aegislash (Blade form), Shadow Sneak barely doesn't OHKO. However, nothing that Deoxys-S has can kill this Aegislash back. Deoxys-S is not bulky or powerful enough to function as a sweeper.
That is not what Deoxys-S is, though, is it? He's a revenge killer, or a sweeper. I believe that a strategic player would use their Pokemon in a way to conserve what could kill Deoxys-S, which only allows it to do a decent amount of damage to a single Pokemon, which kills the Deoxys-S in that turn. Or, if it's a defensive team, it would either taunt, defog, or kill using a couple attacks without much of a problem.
Deoxys-S is not unstoppable. It is very stoppable.
Genesect is the only one of these suspects that I'm guilty of using. I've been using an expert belt set, and I've been impressed with its sweeping and walling abilities (By walling, I mean switching in on a fairy and requiring it to switch). Genesect is incredibly diverse and powerful, and has a difficult type. There are very few flaws in this cannon-bug, but here they are, in list-form:
~4x weak to fire
~Not incredibly fast
~Can be walled, but difficult to predict
~Only functions as offensive
~No priority
So, to narrow it down, Genesect can only fight. That is its only ability. Deoxys-S can set up hazards, and Mega Lucario can use priority or functionally use substitutes. Genesect's only way to be faster than the average foe is via choice scarf. Otherwise, it has 99 base speed, which is possibly the most unfortunate speed in the game (Except that it's a nudge faster than Hydreigon). How can you live an attack by him and kill it in one shot, though, before it kills you? Well, fire types have an easy time dealing with Genesect, as it never has anything super-effective, and relies on moves that could be possibly beneficial to the opponent. For example, Heatran. Heatran is arguably the best counter to Genesect. Very few carry fighting moves, let alone anything stronger against it than Thunderbolt. You can switch in on Flamethrower and sweep with Lava Plume after, which is a move that nothing likes switching into besides another Heatran. Blissey can wall some forms of Genesect and paralyze it, and even set up a wish or SR. Water types usually have an okay time with Genesect, and can kill it with Hydro Pump or Surf. There's a few ways to deal with it, but obviously, determining the version of Genesect is key to defeating it.
Genesect is a stellar Pokemon, as are the other two suspects. I don't see why it should be banned, though, even if it is very useful. It fits in any team like a puzzle piece, and it can sweep teams with no set up, but it, like the others, is stoppable. To build a team is to factor in all major threats and focus on how to deal with them. If a player isn't able to use a Heatran, then I believe that is the fault of the player, not Genesect.
I haven't played here for a long time, so my opinion may be a bit strange, but I have a ~1500 rank on the OU ladder, so I think I can at least share what I think.
[EDIT]: Thought I'd post this just so that you know I'm not lying:
Pokemon are not in Ubers because they're unstoppable. If that was the case then several Ubers would be dropped down into OU as there are OU Pokemon that can handle them. They're in Ubers because they're unhealthy for the metagame and can be incredibly centralizing.
Question: How many of those pokemon you listed can safely switch in and live against Mega Lucario, especially after it has boosted? You're forgetting that Lucario is NOT limited to only a Physical Set, but also has a Mixed and Special set. The special set is probably even more dangerous as something like Will-O-Wisp from Gourgeist means nothing to it.
We are getting a little off topic, but...
1. The reason the 90 base speed is usually irrelevant is not because of priority. Is because most of the time you are not attacking in the turn you mega-evolve, but setting up. You don't bring lucario into a base 95 poke that can OHKO him and try to attack him. Over 90% of the time, you bring it on something that can't do much to it (like mandibuzz or whatever) and set up.
2. Both Charizard's 120 BP moves are horrible. One of them damages you and the other one locks you and makes you unable to even switch out, which means that if the oponent has a steel or a fairy alive you are pretty much unable to use it. Very bad.
3. While Megalucario is easier to revenge kill by outspeeding it with a scarfer, charizard is easier to revenge kill by simply surviving his attack and dealing damage. The difference is that scarfers are actually not that common in this meta (and the most popular one is getting suspect tested!).
A fighting resistant/immunity scares him out? Really? Like which one exactly? Aegislash for example needs to be at full health not to be OHKO'ed by +2 dark pulse, and if spikes are on the field it just dies. (Not to mention that flinch rate)
4. You are totally right. I completely forgot about charizard Y. Very good point.
BTW, I can only wonder what "using flare blitz the least possible" means. So you are either using outrage or the weaker dragon claw....or EQ??
By 'incredibly centralizing', are you saying that a Pokemon becomes so over-used that other specific Pokemon become necessary to counter that over-used Pokemon? That's what I'm getting from that, because Talonflame is a reason to always have rocks, and Aegislash always calls for a fire type.
Mega Lucario is not to be allowed to set up. The idea is that when it is called into battle, you switch in a Pokemon that can kill it before it sets up and sweeps. There would never be a reason to use a move that obviously wouldn't kill it, it's much more ideal to attack it with something that instantly destroys it. If you switch while it sets up, you are able to kill it if you have the right Pokemon, and there's lots of variety in that!
It's a playstyle thing. Stall players say he's borked to hell and back, Balanced and HO players shrug their shoulders mostly.
There's alot of variety of things that can kill it true. Problem is there's basically nothing that can OHKO it without getting ohko'd back, or 2HKO without at worst getting 2HKO'd back. And even if something can take a +2 hit and outspeed it mega luke can just pick a priority move to pick you off with 99% of the time. And not allowing it to set up is pretty unlikely unless you predict the NP/SD and stay in with whatever you have hope you can ohko. Which probably won't happen since no one is switching him into something with a SE move.
You got the definition of incredible centralizing right but your examples are completely wrong. Stealth Rock has been the best move in the game since it was introduced, Talonflame or not. And Aegislash is usually dealth with by using earthquake instead of a fire type.
What is extremely ironic is that in the following paragraph you go on to show exactly how overcentralizing that thing is. "Lucario is easy to deal with, just make sure you have one of the very few pokemon that can OHKO lucario without getting OHKOed back!" Yeah, like that is easy to do. Just makes sure you don't use defensive pokemon since many of them can't even 2HKO lucario. And don't use choice items either since you dont want to be locked into a move that is not very effective against him. And don't use Rotom since will o wisp does little against special versions..... actually, just go ahead and use a team full of ground, fight and fire pokemon and you will see how lucario is totally easy to defeat!
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1. As I've said, that was a kind of poor arguement to begin with. I could go further by mentioning double prediction of Luke coming in and stuff like that... but let's save us that. It'd bring us off topic and nowhere.
2. And that's one of the reasons why Lucario is slighly better. I don't need to remember you as you're answering deeply to my posts, but I never said XZard is better, I've only said that I, in my only and very debatable experience, find them equally threatening. However, I was merely talking about sheer power and ZardX has the edge here. Has worse drawback too, but sometimes they hinder you and sometimes the extrapower is Worth the risk.
3. You're right... They are Revenge killed in different ways. Well, that's something in which they differ. Probably, the scarfless meta that's shaping up (thanks, Talonflame) is helping Mluke in that regard. But ZardX will wound severely what has come in to Revenge kill him. That's something to consider.
About the fighting resist argument: I should have specified that you predict to come in on CC/AS (unlikely scenario), if you come in on the setup turn, you need to predict the set right, and here's the true problem regarding megaLuke and the reason why half of my mind is towards ban. As I've said, I run both aegi and AV goodra. If I predict the set right, I'm fine. If I don't, I have to sacrifice the first mon that I send in. And that's frustrating. And that's the problematic part.
Flare blitz argument: you said earlier you managed ZardX to kill himself just switching to Chansey. May I ask you if your opponent had no other choice? What did you have in? I ask this cause I'm an heavy user of ZardX too and I need to gather as much info as I can manage. People tends to use Fire Blitz too much, in my experience, just that. I never use DClaw. That's just... well, bad imho.
EDIT: I would never set up on mandibuzz, tbh. That thing has whirlwind.
Stealth Rocks were not incorporated into the metagame specifically with Talonflame in mind. Similarly, most people don't pack Fire Blast and the like simply to hit Aegislash.
On the other hand, the closest things we have to counters regarding Mega Lucario are generally things specifically tailored to deal with him, and they often can't actually do that if he predicts the switch right.
It's a similar case to Mega Kangaskhan earlier, where everyone was running Rocky Helmet on their physical walls specifically to deal it.
My point is, Mega-Lucario can be beaten by many Pokemon, just like everything else that exists. That's obvious. People are saying, though, that it can set up and sweep, easily, with no restrictions. There's a lot of things that can stop it whether it attacks or sets up, as long as you switch it in immediately. The strategic way to stop Lucario is to save that Pokemon that can kill it until Lucario comes out, so that it can definitely do it. The rest of the team can't be too much of a problem, for it would be without a mega, and of course, the Lucario is generally the star of every team it's in.
Heracross requires no set-up, is much bulkier, and can do plenty more damage. It is slow, but bulky enough to survive a few hits, including SE ones. Mega-Heracross is thought to be a weak mega, but Lucario, who requires set-up to sweep teams the way people describe, cannot survive a lot of formidable foes. What I'm saying is, Mega-Lucario is not as good as people think. There are plenty of other Pokemon that can do what it does. Talonflame has incredibly powerful priority without set-up, Heracross has incredible power without set-up, and Genesect has the steel typing and is diverse (speedy with a scarf), obviously without set-up. All these Pokemon also claim other great aspects, too. Lucario isn't that great.
[EDIT]: A lot of people are posting at the same time.
Aegislash has been seen often carrying a balloon, for the record, which is what calls for fire.
When I said SR for Talonflame, it was a bad example, I agree. Instead, let's say Rotom-W or Tyranitar for Talonflame. There aren't a ton of things that can wall Talonflame. The reason one would use one of these counters is to deal specifically with Talonflame at times. I use Gourgeist to deal with Lucario AND other physical threats who often use physical moves, and it also deals with waters and it can be used to stop switch-ins with unexpected moves.
I'm not saying that Tyranitar and Rotom-W are only used to deal with Talonflame, but it's a huge reason to use it, as is Lucario to use Gourgeist. It isn't the only reason, though.
Heracross requires no set-up, is much bulkier, and can do plenty more damage. It is slow, but bulky enough to survive a few hits, including SE ones. Mega-Heracross is thought to be a weak mega, but Lucario, who requires set-up to sweep teams the way people describe, cannot survive a lot of formidable foes. What I'm saying is, Mega-Lucario is not as good as people think. There are plenty of other Pokemon that can do what it does. Talonflame has incredibly powerful priority without set-up, Heracross has incredible power without set-up, and Genesect has the steel typing and is diverse (speedy with a scarf), obviously without set-up. All these Pokemon also claim other great aspects, too. Lucario isn't that great.
[EDIT]: A lot of people are posting at the same time.
Aegislash has been seen often carrying a balloon, for the record, which is what calls for fire.
When I said SR for Talonflame, it was a bad example, I agree. Instead, let's say Rotom-W or Tyranitar for Talonflame. There aren't a ton of things that can wall Talonflame. The reason one would use one of these counters is to deal specifically with Talonflame at times. I use Gourgeist to deal with Lucario AND other physical threats who often use physical moves, and it also deals with waters and it can be used to stop switch-ins with unexpected moves.
I'm not saying that Tyranitar and Rotom-W are only used to deal with Talonflame, but it's a huge reason to use it, as is Lucario to use Gourgeist. It isn't the only reason, though.
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I definitely agree with this. It's from my own experience of using LO Deo-S lead for quite some time, it often gets me an early 6-5 or even sometimes a 6-4 advantage right off the bat. It's coverage is ridiculously high and lots of pursuit trappers die to it, most notably Tyranitar and Scizor. It murders offensive teams, and sometimes even some bulky offensive teams, but it kinda fails against stall. It's still a pretty solid late-game cleaner and can even sweep turn 1.
However, then comes priority. Honestly, if anything's going to keep Deo-S OU it's priority. Even with Gene and Mega Luke banned, there are still things like Talonflame, Scizor, Bisharp and even Azumarill that take it down quickly with a strong priority. Although Scizor fears HP Fire which is common on LO sets. 252/4 Azumarill doesn't die from LO Tbolt (61.1 - 72%) and 2HKOs in return, Talonflame OHKOs with CB BB, and Scizor does (73.4 - 86.3%) with CB BP. Then there are some walls, Mandi doesn't give a shit about anything even LO Ice Beam/Tbolt and KOs with Foul Play and Chansey can take on Superpower all day and t-wave/toxic.
Yeah, that's okay. I'm perfectly aware that most of my points were beyond horrible. I just tried really hard to find anything at all that could make Mega Lucario seem a little less broken to publically address those points. It turned into grasping at straws and "Mega Lucario has [numerous amazing features], but [something largely insiginificant]." somewhere along the way.
In hindsight I should've probably kept it to point #2 since that's the only one with any real merit.
Basically Lucario gets relatively few safe, risk-free opportunities to set up. Some other setup sweepers get a fair share of (metagame-relevant) Pokemon they can set up on without taking any risk whatsoever. No prediction needed. Lucario doesn't have this luxury.
Of course Lucario can set up on a lot of Pokemon, but it will generally take a significant amount of damage in the process making it a lot easier to revenge kill.
This issue is obviously alleviated by the sheer amount of switches Lucario forces and how brutally hard it hits even without boosts, but still, getting it to +2 isn't quite as easy as people are making it out to be.
To make this perfectly clear, I do not believe this minor flaw means Lucario isn't broken, but some people seem to be under the assumption that Lucario gets a free +2 whenever it switches in. This simply isn't true.
Yeah, but... It's not like MegaLuke's all that frail. 70/88/70 isn't bad for an offensive 'mon, and...
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's super-effective priority from a max attack Conkeldurr. Surviving that so well is pretty damn impressive. Lucario's got more setup opportunities than one would think - "priority" moves don't exactly end it terribly well, at least not as a consistent way to do so.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 262-309 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Even has a decent chance of living /that/ for crying out loud, which is pretty darn impressive if you ask me.
Luke's typing is pretty nice defensively, I'd say - resistances to Rock, Steel, Dragon, Grass, and more while being neutral to Faerie, Flying, and Psychic courtesy of its Steel typing means it can capitalize on its resistances to find setup opportunities.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's super-effective priority from a max attack Conkeldurr. Surviving that so well is pretty damn impressive. Lucario's got more setup opportunities than one would think - "priority" moves don't exactly end it terribly well, at least not as a consistent way to do so.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 262-309 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Even has a decent chance of living /that/ for crying out loud, which is pretty darn impressive if you ask me.
Luke's typing is pretty nice defensively, I'd say - resistances to Rock, Steel, Dragon, Grass, and more while being neutral to Faerie, Flying, and Psychic courtesy of its Steel typing means it can capitalize on its resistances to find setup opportunities.
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I'm not sure about Genesect, but I think Deoxys S should remain OU for now. I think Defog is a bit over hyped and when it dies down Deoxys S will be suspected again. As for Mega Lucario, Im really on the fence here. I find that its lingering on the line between good and broken, but Im not exactly sure of which one. Anyways, a lot of people have been pro-ban on mega lucario, so im going to take the OU side for the purpose of this post just to keep everyone open minded and keep the discussion diverse.
I remember at the end of Gen V OU Keldeo was being suspected and the debate between ban and not ban was pretty even. However, i found that a lot of the pro-ban arguements on Keldeo always acted as if Keldeo could run every Hidden Power at once to defeat all of its checks and counters and that it could somehow have both a scarf and specs to muscle through walls and avoid being revenge killed. Obviously it's hard tell which one it is but that doesnt make it broken. A lot of people have been doing the same thing with physical and special lucario, stating that it's impossible to tell which one it is and if you guess wrong you're screwed. However, after its first move you immediately know which one it is (trust me when i say that very little physcial lucarios run flash cannon and vice versa with close combat because it just isnt that great) and you can adjust accordingly. Of course "adjusting accordingly" is harder to do than say but it's far from impossible.
The general consensus seems to be that mega lucario is much more dangerous with a special set than a physical, so i will focus on that primarily for now. I agree with this because it has few counters, however, it should be noted that it lacks the immediate power that the physical set has. Things such as 252hp Landorus-T can take special Lucario one on one provided it doesnt get any boosts before hand (and it can wall a physical lucario lacking ice punch too ). Other things such as Talonflame and Aegilash can switch into Lucario's STABs and threaten it out with priority (also Sacred Sword). Again, these guys are just checks but they work well against both physical and special sets and are pretty common/good on their own.
Perhaps the most dangerous thing about mega lucario is its ability to boost with nasty plot. With a +2 in special attack, it can be pretty hard to stop. However, there are still some ways to either prevent it from obtaining the boost or stopping it afterwards. The hardest thing for mega lucario to do is obtain the boost in the first place due to its poor defensive stats and weakness to common types. Also the first turn it attacks it only has a base 90 speed, not 112, meaning there are a lot less things it can force out while boosting as they switch. Secondly, there are many pokemon that are OU viable that can either cripple or seriously damage mega lucario if it chooses to boost rather than attack. Even if it does choose to attack, like i said before it isnt immediately powerful without a boost, and will likely face serious complications if the opponent doesnt switch. Physcial walls such as Hippowdon, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and even Azumarill can beat special Lucario one on one in these cases while being good counters to the physical set as well if you arent sure which is which. Even if mega lucario does pull off a nasty plot, the game is still far from over. Common enough choice scarfers such as Landorus-T, Keldeo, Infernape, Heracross, Landorus-I, Garchomp, Haxorus, Genesect, and Terrakion in some cases if the opponent is either lacking Vacumm Wave or doesnt suspect the scarf and wants to play it safe by going with Flash Cannon or Aura Sphere. Of course, you dont need to revenge mega lucario after a boost to beat it. Specially Defensive Heatran is a good check provided mega Lucario is lacking Aura Sphere, which isnt uncommon considering most use Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse, Vacuum Wave, and Nasty Plot. Specially Defense Rotom-Wash also is a good check as well assuming Aura Sphere isnt on the set. Talonflame can come in and do a good chunk of damage with brave bird as well as resisting Vacuum Wave if Mega Lucario outruns it. Assualt Vest Conkeldurr can threaten it with super effective priority or Drain Punch depending on the situation. Assualt Vest Goodra can also beat it with Fire Blast or Flamethrower. Trick Room teams and teams running sticky web dont have much of a problem at all as well.
While I am still on the fence with mega Lucario, I am not fully convinced either way of its guilt or innocent and I would like to use it/fight on the ladder multiple times before I reach a final decision and I would encourage everyone else to do this as well before jumping to conclusions. I also feel as if people are being misleading in some of their pro-ban posts. Many people have been calculating at an assumed +2 in special attack while not clearly specifying. Some idiot even used Focus Blast as well in his calculations. Mega Lucario is different from other obviously broken pokemon such as mega gengar and mega kanghaskan. They were both obviously broken and i trembled at the sight of them upon seeing them on the opposing team, unlike mega lucario. Finally, this isnt communism, some pokemon should be better than others, and i think we can all agree mega lucario is one of these. But, the question we should be asking is how much better can they be before it becomes ridiculous and unfair.
I remember at the end of Gen V OU Keldeo was being suspected and the debate between ban and not ban was pretty even. However, i found that a lot of the pro-ban arguements on Keldeo always acted as if Keldeo could run every Hidden Power at once to defeat all of its checks and counters and that it could somehow have both a scarf and specs to muscle through walls and avoid being revenge killed. Obviously it's hard tell which one it is but that doesnt make it broken. A lot of people have been doing the same thing with physical and special lucario, stating that it's impossible to tell which one it is and if you guess wrong you're screwed. However, after its first move you immediately know which one it is (trust me when i say that very little physcial lucarios run flash cannon and vice versa with close combat because it just isnt that great) and you can adjust accordingly. Of course "adjusting accordingly" is harder to do than say but it's far from impossible.
The general consensus seems to be that mega lucario is much more dangerous with a special set than a physical, so i will focus on that primarily for now. I agree with this because it has few counters, however, it should be noted that it lacks the immediate power that the physical set has. Things such as 252hp Landorus-T can take special Lucario one on one provided it doesnt get any boosts before hand (and it can wall a physical lucario lacking ice punch too ). Other things such as Talonflame and Aegilash can switch into Lucario's STABs and threaten it out with priority (also Sacred Sword). Again, these guys are just checks but they work well against both physical and special sets and are pretty common/good on their own.
Perhaps the most dangerous thing about mega lucario is its ability to boost with nasty plot. With a +2 in special attack, it can be pretty hard to stop. However, there are still some ways to either prevent it from obtaining the boost or stopping it afterwards. The hardest thing for mega lucario to do is obtain the boost in the first place due to its poor defensive stats and weakness to common types. Also the first turn it attacks it only has a base 90 speed, not 112, meaning there are a lot less things it can force out while boosting as they switch. Secondly, there are many pokemon that are OU viable that can either cripple or seriously damage mega lucario if it chooses to boost rather than attack. Even if it does choose to attack, like i said before it isnt immediately powerful without a boost, and will likely face serious complications if the opponent doesnt switch. Physcial walls such as Hippowdon, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and even Azumarill can beat special Lucario one on one in these cases while being good counters to the physical set as well if you arent sure which is which. Even if mega lucario does pull off a nasty plot, the game is still far from over. Common enough choice scarfers such as Landorus-T, Keldeo, Infernape, Heracross, Landorus-I, Garchomp, Haxorus, Genesect, and Terrakion in some cases if the opponent is either lacking Vacumm Wave or doesnt suspect the scarf and wants to play it safe by going with Flash Cannon or Aura Sphere. Of course, you dont need to revenge mega lucario after a boost to beat it. Specially Defensive Heatran is a good check provided mega Lucario is lacking Aura Sphere, which isnt uncommon considering most use Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse, Vacuum Wave, and Nasty Plot. Specially Defense Rotom-Wash also is a good check as well assuming Aura Sphere isnt on the set. Talonflame can come in and do a good chunk of damage with brave bird as well as resisting Vacuum Wave if Mega Lucario outruns it. Assualt Vest Conkeldurr can threaten it with super effective priority or Drain Punch depending on the situation. Assualt Vest Goodra can also beat it with Fire Blast or Flamethrower. Trick Room teams and teams running sticky web dont have much of a problem at all as well.
While I am still on the fence with mega Lucario, I am not fully convinced either way of its guilt or innocent and I would like to use it/fight on the ladder multiple times before I reach a final decision and I would encourage everyone else to do this as well before jumping to conclusions. I also feel as if people are being misleading in some of their pro-ban posts. Many people have been calculating at an assumed +2 in special attack while not clearly specifying. Some idiot even used Focus Blast as well in his calculations. Mega Lucario is different from other obviously broken pokemon such as mega gengar and mega kanghaskan. They were both obviously broken and i trembled at the sight of them upon seeing them on the opposing team, unlike mega lucario. Finally, this isnt communism, some pokemon should be better than others, and i think we can all agree mega lucario is one of these. But, the question we should be asking is how much better can they be before it becomes ridiculous and unfair.
1. And theorizing about double switches and stuff like that would actually give lucario another point against Zard. If you correctly predict my lucario switch in and double switch to a counter, I can just switch it out. No problem. I probably just lost 3% due to SR. But your Zard would take 50% for doing this.
2. Lucario still has the edge on raw power. Adaptability + higher base stats + 2x instead of 1.5x still gives him a higher damage output most of the time, despite the higher BP of outrage and FB. Then add to that the fact that Charizards 120 BP moves have horrible disadvantages.
3. True. Most of the time, Zard will hurt the thing trying to revenge kill it. But Luke can actually switch out on them and come in again latter. Charizard has usually less of a chance to do that.
That time, I think my oponent sent charizards against my heatran, taking 50% from SR. I switched into Skarmory predicting dragon dance or EQ and bait the FB, he dragon danced, and I sent chansey to take the obvious FB.
People use FB too much because neither EQ nor Dragon claw deal enough damage, and locking yourself into outrage when the oponent has a steel or fairy on the team is as smart as sticking your hand in a wasp nest. And is not like there are few viable steel/fairy types in OU.
So yeah I was a bit rushed as I had class to go to but I will talk more about my thoughts on deoxys-s, my main point about his suicide lead set is that this gen suicide leads are dying out because it is just too easy to neutralize the pokes that are suicide leads or too easy to get rid of the hazards/screens. However, imo deoxys is help balancing out the defog buff this gen. That is the main point I wan to across. The other thing I wanted to address was about deosharp because while I have had my bisharp sweep whole teams I have also had to deal with predicting when to sucker punch and when to knock off, sometimes they could just set up on you and you then are put into a 50/50 predition scenario, so I dont think deosharp is broken it is just a good strategy that is seeing alot of use right now.
But to the comment im replying too, I completely agree with the threat of the life orb deo-s, I just neglected it. Those sets are very powerful and are also a great way to deal with genesect. Maybe if genesect goes I could see deoxys going back to ubers, but thats why its kind of weird testing three things at once.
One quick thing about lucario too, is that Im pretty sure AV conkeldurr is a damn good stop to him and AV conk is very easy to fit on a team. That being said I still think lucarionite should be banned but I think it is worth mentioning.
All right, now that I'm actually looking for it, I am 100% for a genesect ban (sort of). I could list some calcs or say the exact same thing as some other people or try to use logic, but but that sounds boring, so I'm going to just say why I hate it. Specifically refering to the the scarf sets, the ability to hit just about ANYTHING for resonable damage while taking none of its own and bringing in the appropriate pokemon that wouldn't mind taking that hit is freaking ANNOYING. Not only that, if you have a sweeper trying to sweep, he can pretty consistently revenge kill it almost everytime, meaning its very difficult to sweep when this guy is still alive. Name me a sweeper that doesn't at least take at least 50% from one of Genesect's potential moves and can OHKO him before the second attack (that's not rhetorical, if there is one, I'd like to know what it is). Between being able to cripple defensive threats thanks to download, and offensive threats thanks to the scarf, while never having to pay for its deeds thanks to U-Turn, I think its more destabilizing to the metagame than Lucario.
No offense AJ, but that is honestly complete horseshit, I have been using two teams with no mega Luke and have the reqs ezily, and many of the people up here don't have one either. What is true is that u completely need either a mega Luke counter or a bunch of checks or ur screwed, but that is true as well for shit like pinsir or Zard. However,the most common and deadly style is deosharp. Deosharp puts you at an instant disadvantage no matter what you do, even on my aegislash team. There is nothing you can do about the fact that you are gonna lose momentum and give bisharp a free +2. They may be down 5-6 early, but the amount of times you are forced to sac mons makes it worth it.
Oh PUH-LEASE! Everybody knows that the physical set has a bit more offensive flare with better physical attack and a more powerful/reliable move, Close Combat. It gets even stronger priority moves. Mixed sets tend to be the least predictable, but the least threatening in term of damage output. As the only thing Lucario gains by running mixed is Ice/Thunder punch.
As for your question... C'mon, do the calcs yourself and then post them in your reply before talking smack. And don't tell me you did do the calcs, if you did, surely you would have posted them in your comment to prove your point. If you did do them, and didn't post them in your reply, then I'm fairly certain they can safely switch in. Good day.
I'm not implying that Blissey and Lucario have the same roles. I have no idea how you interpreted that. I'm saying that Lucario can be beaten if you use the right Pokemon, as Blissey can be beaten by using a physical attacker. If a team was filled with special attackers, it couldn't beat Blissey, and if a team was filled with slow, weak Pokemon, it couldn't beat Mega-Lucario.
I will read your post on page 9 (or something). What you have quoted does make sense, though, you may be looking at it the wrong way completely, especially since it isn't my argument, it's just my thesis.
[EDIT]: I have read your post, and I agree that you put up a great argument. However, if the only thing to worry about here is the Nasty Plot set, then:
~Lucario has no priority, making it easy to outspeed with a scarfed Pokemon
~Lucario is limited to one side of the attacking spectrum
~Not a ton of coverage moves, just enough to be unresisted
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 284-336 (39.7 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This alone can stop Lucario. Pokemon too slow to take out Lucario can rest on the fact that Blissey can take two Aura Spheres (or one boosted one) and Thunder Wave it. If it doesn't switch out after that, I'm sure something else in the team with decent enough defense or a fighting resistance can take it out, then. What else can wall a special Lucario long enough to kill it?
252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 96-114 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 87.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 130-154 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 88-104 (22.9 - 27%) -- 39.6% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 79-94 (21.7 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 174-206 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
You could say that this isn't enough evidence to deem a special Lucario to not be Uber-worthy, but I think it's plenty. There's enough high special defense to keep it from sweeping. The Assault Vest is a great asset to stopping him. I haven't included scarfed Pokemon that could easily one-shot it, either, let alone ones naturally faster. As long as you don't let Lucario set up on you, and you actually take action, you can stop him. He's just powerful.
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Mega Lucario really needs to, and probably will go. Adaptability Close Combat especially if at +2 is just ridiculous and should have never existed. Not to mention a nice 112 speed tier and many priority options in bullet punch, vacuum wave and extreme speed. Genesect is also just as powerful, and over centralizing as it was last gen. With the massive movepool, great stats, and a free boost every switch in, it needs to go as it has only one counter in Heatran. Oh yeah, it's U-Turning 99% of the time anyway so Heatran will get worn down by rocks fast. Deoxys-S is very underwhelming on the other hand. While it was a great and broken Pokemon last gen, it just isn't as good anymore. With defog running around, and its mediocre bulk and offense it just isn't so great anymore. It even made UU usage just to show how much people even care about it anymore.
In my opinion, the only Poke that deserve the Hammer is Mega Luke. There are several reasons why this thing is overpowered for the metagame.
The first being its offensive stats and ability. With 145 Base Atk, 140 Base Sp. Atk and Adaptability, Mega Luke can not only plough through bulky Pokemon who resist its STAB but also has the potential to attack from either side of the spectrum, meaning that you run the risk of sacking your physical wall/tank if it turns out to be specially based and vice versa. These offensive stats mean that there are no such things as "safe" switches into it as it can easily KO most Pokes even without setting up, meaning "sack a Pokemon I may need to check a different threat on his team so that I can bring in something that can KO it".
Its Speed tier is also concerning. 112 Base Speed means that Pokemon that previously outsped Lucario and could KO Like Garchomp, Keldeo ect are now slower that it and are forced to take a hit which they most likely will not survive. Even Scarfed Pokemon, which there aren't too many because of Talonflame, are not safe choices due to Luke's plethora of priority moves such as Bullet Punch, Extremespeed and Vacuum Wave which can easily KO most unfortunate Scarfers after an easy-to-attain boost. Unfortunately, many common priority users such as CB Azumarill, Talonflame and even AV Conk cannot OHKO Mega-Luke at full health while being forced to take severe damage in return.
Overall while, Yes, certain Pokemon can take a hit from a certain set and retaliate, a lot of those cannot take a hit from the other. The unpredictability and sheer power of Mega-Lucario means that no team is safe from it unless it is a dedicated "Exerminate all Mega-Lucario" team.
The first being its offensive stats and ability. With 145 Base Atk, 140 Base Sp. Atk and Adaptability, Mega Luke can not only plough through bulky Pokemon who resist its STAB but also has the potential to attack from either side of the spectrum, meaning that you run the risk of sacking your physical wall/tank if it turns out to be specially based and vice versa. These offensive stats mean that there are no such things as "safe" switches into it as it can easily KO most Pokes even without setting up, meaning "sack a Pokemon I may need to check a different threat on his team so that I can bring in something that can KO it".
Its Speed tier is also concerning. 112 Base Speed means that Pokemon that previously outsped Lucario and could KO Like Garchomp, Keldeo ect are now slower that it and are forced to take a hit which they most likely will not survive. Even Scarfed Pokemon, which there aren't too many because of Talonflame, are not safe choices due to Luke's plethora of priority moves such as Bullet Punch, Extremespeed and Vacuum Wave which can easily KO most unfortunate Scarfers after an easy-to-attain boost. Unfortunately, many common priority users such as CB Azumarill, Talonflame and even AV Conk cannot OHKO Mega-Luke at full health while being forced to take severe damage in return.
Overall while, Yes, certain Pokemon can take a hit from a certain set and retaliate, a lot of those cannot take a hit from the other. The unpredictability and sheer power of Mega-Lucario means that no team is safe from it unless it is a dedicated "Exerminate all Mega-Lucario" team.
I haven't laddered in ages so I'm probably not the authority on anything, but I've found Genesect to be a fair challenge and Deoxys-S formidable yet swiftly handled. M-Lucario, on the other hand, is absolutely broken. There are so few concrete counters for it, and the amount of effective options it has makes it even harder to deal with. I'd bet money that if any of these go upstairs, it's the angry jackal.
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