XY UU Beta Discussion (Read post #32)

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Wait WTF lol. Regenerator AV Slowbro is actually pretty legit and is a good set. The set that's shit is Regenerator AV Mienshao, because seriously, Mienshao has no business running an AV, especially with 65/60/60 defenses. AV Regen Slowbro is hardly far from being "used wrongly", because it does patch up Slowbro's bad SpD. Sure, it may not be the best set, but Regenerator helps with AV's main issue: lack of recovery.

Also nobody cares about starter bans: Empoleon is a Pokemon just like Staraptor, Kyurem, Hitmontop, Roserade and Magikarp. If it's found to be overpowered, it should be banned. (Of course, right now any talk of banning fucking Empoleon is pretty ridiculous, so to speak, considering he's not even very amazing)
 
Wait WTF lol. Regenerator AV Slowbro is actually pretty legit and is a good set. The set that's shit is Regenerator AV Mienshao, because seriously, Mienshao has no business running an AV, especially with 65/60/60 defenses. AV Regen Slowbro is hardly far from being "used wrongly", because it does patch up Slowbro's bad SpD. Sure, it may not be the best set, but Regenerator helps with AV's main issue: lack of recovery.

Also nobody cares about starter bans: Empoleon is a Pokemon just like Staraptor, Kyurem, Hitmontop, Roserade and Magikarp. If it's found to be overpowered, it should be banned. (Of course, right now any talk of banning fucking Empoleon is pretty ridiculous, so to speak, considering he's not even very amazing)
I didn't say it wasn't good. I said it is really overrated and isn't it's its best set.
 
AV Slowbro's a nice tank. It's not going to sit there and take hits forever the way some of the Leftovers variants will, but it's not meant to. It's meant to come in, take whatever attack and hit back hard. It can do this reliably, as long as you don't expect it to do the unreasonable (go toe-to-toe with Hydreigon, switch into a banded Crawdaunt Knock Off etc.). It does EXACTLY what it's supposed to do, no more no less. In general, I don't feel it's overestimated or underestimated. It's just correctly estimated. It performs just as well as people's expectations. You may feel Slowbro has way more utility as a wall, and that's totally fine, but people may want something to play the role of a tank and AV Slowbro does that just fine

The fact that you're talking to people that are talking about AV Mienshao... I think you may have a weird perception of how people "rate" things.
 
I saw somebody say 'I laddered to 1350 with an AV Mienshao, it really pulls weight', and then all these people on PS! startedtheorymonning how good it would be. As a tank, it hits with 100 attack, which is not very good without Modest+252 EVs, in which case it can't take special attacks too well. Being able to counter Keldeo is cool and all, but what else can it safely take attacks from? The numerous Fighting types that hit it with Knock Off(Mienshao), Megahorn(Heracross), and ThunderPunch(Mega-Medicham), along with the multitude of Volt Switchers and U-Turners it can't take. The sheer number of things that run a super-effective moves it can't take make it not good as a tank, which should be able to counter most of the meta game. The only common Pokemon it can take hits from are Empoleon, Latias, and Keldeo, while even the common other attackers like SD LO Diggersby 1HKO it.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 378-446 (95.9 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
I WILL REPEAT: I am not saying it is bad. I am saying it is overrated.
 
That doesn't even prove that AV Slowbro is bad or not worth using or being used wrong, whatever. That just proves that Diggersby is ridiculous as fuck if it can OHKO a physical tank after a SD with a neutral hit with SR up.

Also why would Slowbro want to stay in on Heracross anyway o_O besides, Heracross is usually choice'd, which makes it easy for Slowbro to wall things like a CC. Megacham rarely runs Thunderpunch iirc (it gets very crowded when you are trying to fit Bullet Punch, STABs, Ice Punch, Drain Punch, and Fake Out onto Medicham, among other things: ThunderPunch is the least of my concerns regarding that especially when STAB HJK hits harder than SE Thunderpunch anyway. Slowbro is just an exception of a water-type that resists HJK). Mienshao can't 2HKO with Knock Off.

Besides, your original quote "Slowbro is really good, but people are using it wrongly with AV." pretty much suggests that Slowbro is terrible with AV... what the hell am I supposed to run now, Curse Slowbro?

AV Slowbro isn't beating the entire metagame, FFS. Just let it do what its supposed to do: tank a hit, do something, and then switch out.
 
I've found that Roserade Spikes are really effective in the current metagame. Sleep Powder being legal with Spikes is a very nice buff for Roserade, as it allows Roserade to setup easier as well as cripple something. It's also worth noting that most of the Grass-types that are immune to Sleep Powder either lose to Sludge Bomb or are Spikes bait.

I've particularly liked using Roserade with U-turn Hydreigon and Diggersby. Hydreigon lures in Florges and U-turns out to Roserade for Roserade to setup on Florges, and both Hydreigon and Diggersby appreciate Spikes.
 
I alwase prefered Chesnaught rather than Roserade, becuase it had more bulk, Leech Seed, and was immune to Sludge Bomb (Walling Roserade). Chesnaught also has access to Roar for phazing. Chesnaught has beter all around bulk, and I see it more as Deoxys-D to where Roserade is Deoxys-S. Brick Break also has the added plus off breaking Light Screen and is a decent STAB, while Pain Split is a recovery tool.
 
I've found that Roserade Spikes are really effective in the current metagame. Sleep Powder being legal with Spikes is a very nice buff for Roserade, as it allows Roserade to setup easier as well as cripple something. It's also worth noting that most of the Grass-types that are immune to Sleep Powder either lose to Sludge Bomb or are Spikes bait.

I've particularly liked using Roserade with U-turn Hydreigon and Diggersby. Hydreigon lures in Florges and U-turns out to Roserade for Roserade to setup on Florges, and both Hydreigon and Diggersby appreciate Spikes.

LO Roserade is pretty underrated imo as an effective offensive spiker. LO Leaf Storm hits like a bullet train and Sludge Bomb is pretty good coverage. She can also get options such as Technician HP Fire or Natural Cure Rest for coverage or longevity, or even LO Giga Drain just for a secondary STAB option. Roserade's biggest issue for 2 generations is Spikes being illegal with Leaf Storm and Sleep Powder, so this is a really nice buff for it. (like, i swear, fuck cacturne, your movepool is terrible)
 
There has been a lot of comotion about banning knock off, but if knock off gets banned, that most likely means mons like crawduant , weavile, tornados, machamp, mienshao could drop a lot of usage. While others can live without knock off(shuckle, Empoleon, gligar) and they only enjoy the item loosing side-effects while to pokemons stated from the far above(crawduant etc) knock off is also an important coverge moove to them. And most likely must need it to perform well.
 
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There has been a lot of comotion about banning knock off, but if knock off gets banned, that most likely means mons like crawduant , weavile, tornados, machamp, mienshao could drop a lot of usage. While others can live without knock off(shuckle, Empoleon, gligar) and they only enjoy the item loosing side-effects to pokemons stated above knock off is also an important coverge moove to them. And most likely must need it to perform well.
Empoleon, Gligar, and Shuckle have less than 76 attack or have a higher special attack. They do not need it 'for coverage.' The dark types prevent stall. Tornadus and Mienshao can live without it. Machamp will end up in RU/NU regardless. They don't rely on it as much as you think.
 
Empoleon, Gligar, and Shuckle have less than 76 attack or have a higher special attack. They do not need it 'for coverage.' The dark types prevent stall. Tornadus and Mienshao can live without it. Machamp will end up in RU/NU regardless. They don't rely on it as much as you think.
That's what i ment by shuckle gligar and empoleon not needing it to perform their rolls. I only ment the ones that i stated on the far top part. You must have misunderstood it
 
Although Knock Off is indeed a fundamental part of UU, and by know means isn't strong in both its power (well at least on the first hit) and its utility, and tends to be a tier staple, I don't find it too tier defining.

For example it is amazing to see how many Psychic continue to run around the tier. Common Psychics including but not limited to: Celebi, Mew, Latias, Slowbro, Metagross, Jirachi; all seem to be in relative abundance despite their weakness to Knock Off. Likewise Chandelure is one of the more popular Pokemon despite Knock Off being so apparent. It isn't changing the usage of a lot of Pokemon as much as what one may expect, in fact I find that Knock Off is the balancing move in the tier that prevents Psychics and Ghosts becoming quite a significant amount of the tier. It keeps the metagame balanced and I find is healthy for it.
Another sort of standout is indeed still the amount of Eviolite users in UU this generation. Doublade, Chansey, Porygon2, even Tangela and the occasional Togetic seem to be running around despite the amount of Knock Off users (and on the topic of Chansey I think that Knock Off is the only thing which has kept it from going up to BL this whole time). So even Eviolite users who are greatly hindered by the move seem to be flourishing.

I find this to be rather interesting considering it has been named to be such a "game-changing" move, which I have no doubt that it is, if is a f**king nasty little piece of work, but from what it seems by the amount of Pokemon in the tier, stated above, who would be some of the most hindered by the Knock Off still being able to run around in UU, which leads me to the belief that it is a lot more manageable than what people may thing.
Look at Stealth Rocks for example. Almost all Pokemon with a Stealth Rock weakness but especially 4x weaknesses to rocks tend to not be used as much, and this has been rather apparent since when it first came about. I mean look at a Pokemon like Yanmega who was a rather powerful UU Pokemon last gen and in fact I would have expected it to thrive this gen with all the Psychics, Grass-types and Dark-types running around in UU which it can hit with STAB Bug Buzz and then a lot of the Fighting-types with STAB Air Slash, and boasting 117 SpA as well as 95 Spe and 2 incredible abilities. Yet I have seen hardly anyone running it, and although there be more reasons behind this, Stealth Rocks is definitely a major contributor to this and is/was why a lot of Pokemon end up in lower tiers. Knock Off on the other hand hasn't really seemed to have had this effect on the metagame.

I believe that Knock Off is indeed manageable in that despite its major distribution it is rather predictable when it comes to its users, or more to the point threatening users. On Pokemon such as Weavile, Crawdaunt, Krookodile and even Absol etc. we expect that STAB Knock Off, and the real threat users of it tend to be rather limited. The majority of other users are only really using it for the utility in that it gets rid of the opponents item, and despite that, it doesn't really do much damage unless you have something with a weakness and is rather Physically frail. If there isn't much attack investment, Knock Off tends to still be mediocre, better than last gen no doubt, but still not outstandingly good. And so most of the strong sweeper/tanks/whatever who use it are the ones who really need to be prepared for and can be accounted for. And know doubt Knock Off is something which you just have to prepare for like many other things which you should be considering during team-building. For example you should pretty much in UU always have some good resist or physical tank to take on Darmanitan's Flare Blitz or Victini's V-Create, or quite frankly, they can end up wrecking entire teams when Scarfed.

And finally losing your item isn't really the "end all" that some people seem to think that it is. It by no means is a "YAY" thing unless you got something like fucking Acrobatics, but most Pokemon, even including some of the Eviolite users, can function well without it.

I think I have had enough of a ramble now. Sorry for the long post, I can go on sometimes.
 
Please tell me how the Knock Off buff has helped any of these Pokemon in a significant way. They use Knock Off because of the disruptive quality of getting rid of an item, not because it got an admittadley ridiculous boost in power. Knock Off does not make these Pokemon ridiculous threats that can easily ruin teams, so don't over-hype it on them.

Yeah, I suppose you're right. Knock Off is by no means broken on a Pokemon like Shuckle. Infact, it gives a basically free switch in to a Mega or a Pokemon that's already lost its hold item, since it does such little damage, and just becomes a wasted turn in those situations. It's not a spammable move on every Pokemon. A few Pokemon like Crawdaunt and Bisharp can spam it, because of their stat spread (high attack, STAB), and they have strong priority moves can help protect them from faster Pokemon that are switched in.The majority of Knock Off users can't use the move as well as those Pokemon.
 
^ And those aforementioned Pokemon are the only real ones which you should prepare for, the rest really aren't that scary.
 
mew.gif

Mew @ Leftovers
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Psyshock
- Roost

I've been using Mew a lot recently and its been really effective at what it does. I've been using a Stallbreaker set with Taunt + Will-O-Wisp. It can break annoying Stall cores, top threats like Mega Medicham too. With the bulk investment it cant be 2hkoed by MMedicham. Psyshock allows it to beat Chansey and co. WoW cripples physical attacker and can hit an incoming Weavile or Escavalier. Pokemon that can take care of Dark types or Knock Off users are appreciated.
 
There is no reason not to run an item just because you want a powered-up Acrobatics.
You're better off running a consumable item such as Sitrus Berry or Focus Sash in pretty much every scenario.

See, the thing with those suggested items is that they are too situational. Sometimes the opponent leads with something that Acrobatics could OHKO without an item, however, on the flip side, sometimes the opponent leads with something like Jolteon, which is quite annoying for Tornadus, as it cannot tank Jolteon's STABs if it's LO or Specs. Though, I realize not using an item is also very situational, however, I'd argue that in most situations, you'd appreciate the lack of an item more. Being itemless also can trick your opponent into thinking it can get the power increase from Knock Off,and fail to KO you.
 
See, the thing with those suggested items is that they are too situational. Sometimes the opponent leads with something that Acrobatics could OHKO without an item, however, on the flip side, sometimes the opponent leads with something like Jolteon, which is quite annoying for Tornadus, as it cannot tank Jolteon's STABs if it's LO or Specs. Though, I realize not using an item is also very situational, however, I'd argue that in most situations, you'd appreciate the lack of an item more. Being itemless also can trick your opponent into thinking it can get the power increase from Knock Off,and fail to KO you.

yes but that last scenario is situational too. i say just go with your gut and dont ban knock off. weavile cant even run it with icicle crash.

and seriously people. empoleon? he is a special attacker and does not benefit from knock off any more than last gen (unless you are doing a physical agility or an SD set and it only has base 86 attack. it is also slow as crap keep in mind. it absolutely requires sticky web against it or a defog to be useful)

EDIT: if knock off is suspected im voting not broken
 
Empoleon, Gligar, and Shuckle have less than 76 attack or have a higher special attack. They do not need it 'for coverage.' The dark types prevent stall. Tornadus and Mienshao can live without it. Machamp will end up in RU/NU regardless. They don't rely on it as much as you think.
Just nitpicking that Empoleon has 86 Attack, not 76. And they don't need Knock Off per se, but it is definitely helpful for some of their sets.
 
Although Knock Off is indeed a fundamental part of UU, and by know means isn't strong in both its power (well at least on the first hit) and its utility, and tends to be a tier staple, I don't find it too tier defining.

For example it is amazing to see how many Psychic continue to run around the tier. Common Psychics including but not limited to: Celebi, Mew, Latias, Slowbro, Metagross, Jirachi; all seem to be in relative abundance despite their weakness to Knock Off. Likewise Chandelure is one of the more popular Pokemon despite Knock Off being so apparent. It isn't changing the usage of a lot of Pokemon as much as what one may expect, in fact I find that Knock Off is the balancing move in the tier that prevents Psychics and Ghosts becoming quite a significant amount of the tier. It keeps the metagame balanced and I find is healthy for it.
Another sort of standout is indeed still the amount of Eviolite users in UU this generation. Doublade, Chansey, Porygon2, even Tangela and the occasional Togetic seem to be running around despite the amount of Knock Off users (and on the topic of Chansey I think that Knock Off is the only thing which has kept it from going up to BL this whole time). So even Eviolite users who are greatly hindered by the move seem to be flourishing.

I find this to be rather interesting considering it has been named to be such a "game-changing" move, which I have no doubt that it is, if is a f**king nasty little piece of work, but from what it seems by the amount of Pokemon in the tier, stated above, who would be some of the most hindered by the Knock Off still being able to run around in UU, which leads me to the belief that it is a lot more manageable than what people may thing.
Look at Stealth Rocks for example. Almost all Pokemon with a Stealth Rock weakness but especially 4x weaknesses to rocks tend to not be used as much, and this has been rather apparent since when it first came about. I mean look at a Pokemon like Yanmega who was a rather powerful UU Pokemon last gen and in fact I would have expected it to thrive this gen with all the Psychics, Grass-types and Dark-types running around in UU which it can hit with STAB Bug Buzz and then a lot of the Fighting-types with STAB Air Slash, and boasting 117 SpA as well as 95 Spe and 2 incredible abilities. Yet I have seen hardly anyone running it, and although there be more reasons behind this, Stealth Rocks is definitely a major contributor to this and is/was why a lot of Pokemon end up in lower tiers. Knock Off on the other hand hasn't really seemed to have had this effect on the metagame.

I believe that Knock Off is indeed manageable in that despite its major distribution it is rather predictable when it comes to its users, or more to the point threatening users. On Pokemon such as Weavile, Crawdaunt, Krookodile and even Absol etc. we expect that STAB Knock Off, and the real threat users of it tend to be rather limited. The majority of other users are only really using it for the utility in that it gets rid of the opponents item, and despite that, it doesn't really do much damage unless you have something with a weakness and is rather Physically frail. If there isn't much attack investment, Knock Off tends to still be mediocre, better than last gen no doubt, but still not outstandingly good. And so most of the strong sweeper/tanks/whatever who use it are the ones who really need to be prepared for and can be accounted for. And know doubt Knock Off is something which you just have to prepare for like many other things which you should be considering during team-building. For example you should pretty much in UU always have some good resist or physical tank to take on Darmanitan's Flare Blitz or Victini's V-Create, or quite frankly, they can end up wrecking entire teams when Scarfed.

And finally losing your item isn't really the "end all" that some people seem to think that it is. It by no means is a "YAY" thing unless you got something like fucking Acrobatics, but most Pokemon, even including some of the Eviolite users, can function well without it.

I think I have had enough of a ramble now. Sorry for the long post, I can go on sometimes.

Earthquake is one of the most defining moves in the game, but Heatran still is one of the top ten Pokemon used in the game. The point is, Knock Off is ment to pressure a team. Unless the psychic type wants to die, something on their team is going to get hit with a 95 base power move, and then lose it's item. Then we get guys who want to counter it by not running an item in the first place. I consider that overcenteralization, and limiting of teambuilding.
 
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slightly off topic but what if TTar had sucker punch. the best rock paperr scissors with pursuit knock off and sucker punch. pretty much if your ghost or psychic youre screwed.

anyways i still dont think knock off is broken

EDIT: people are seriously regarding knock off on shuckle? it used it last gen but it has base 10 attack. even with the buff, its still not sweeping any teams
 
Earthquake is one of the most defining moves in the game, but Heatran still is one of the top ten Pokemon used in the game. The point is, Knock Off is ment to pressure a team. Unless the psychic type wants to die, something on their team is going to get hit with a 95 base power move, and then lose it's item. Then we get guys who want to counter it by not running an item in the first place. I consider that overcenteralization, and limiting of teambuilding.

What's so bad about using a held item (or lack of one) just because of one move? You mention Heatran and Earthquake, but a lot of Heatran use Air Balloon mainly because of Earthquake. Garchomp with Yache Berry (item which halves first Ice move that hits you) used to be very popular some years back as well. With moves like Ice Beam, Knock Off, Earthquake, etc. flying all over the place in most matches, these hold items (or no item) can be worth it sometimes, since the moves they help defend against are so common.

To be honest, I hardly ever see a Pokemon without a hold item in the RMT forum or on Showdown anyway. Nearly every team has items on all 6 Pokemon, so it seems very rare that someone feels the need to forgo a hold item.

On another note, Colbur Berry might be better over no item on some Pokemon, since it halves Dark moves, so should bring Knock Off's base power down to just under 50 on its first turn.
 
i feel like this mandibuzz set shouldn't be ou,but more like uu/ru.what do you guys think?

Mandibuzz (F) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 SAtk / 150 HP / 108 Spd
Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Heat Wave
- Dark Pulse
- Air Slash
 
i feel like this mandibuzz set shouldn't be ou,but more like uu/ru.what do you guys think?

Mandibuzz (F) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 SAtk / 150 HP / 108 Spd
Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Heat Wave
- Dark Pulse
- Air Slash

Mandibuzz is ou, this is uu beta....

Edit: Sticky web has been very fun this meta. Paired up with strong things such as victini or darmatitan, it is a very big threat
 
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