XY UU Beta Discussion (Read post #32)

[CascadeBeta]

I'm saying that even with Knock off as a popular move it doesn't hinder Reuniclus's viability. That's all, just something to watch for.

Who cares about Reuniclus? I've never seen him run in UUBeta period. I don't understand how the argument of, well, just never switch into knock off, somehow makes it better for the metagame?

In my experience, when I see something with knock off, I have to make the choice of, am I going to switch to my mega mon which probably won't be able to stomach both a knock off and a crabhammer/aqua jet, or do I lose leftovers on my defensive core and take a pretty large HP hit? You still haven't told me what Pokemon are still competitive after taking 20-50% of their health in damage (and I'm being very generous on that max amount) and losing their item. All you've said is, well, this one 'mon doesn't switch into it, and that makes it okay.

 

[Oddish is the best]

Who cares about Reuniclus? I've never seen him run in UUBeta period. I don't understand how the argument of, well, just never switch into knock off, somehow makes it better for the metagame?

In my experience, when I see something with knock off, I have to make the choice of, am I going to switch to my mega mon which probably won't be able to stomach both a knock off and a crabhammer/aqua jet, or do I lose leftovers on my defensive core and take a pretty large HP hit? You still haven't told me what Pokemon are still competitive after taking 20-50% of their health in damage (and I'm being very generous on that max amount) and losing their item. All you've said is, well, this one 'mon doesn't switch into it, and that makes it okay.

I'm just saying that you have to learn to adapt and play around it like when SR was introduced in gen 4.

 

[RowDog]

A cool sort of set which I experimented with in UU as a Psychic that abuses is Knock Off is Weakness Policy Metagross.
Metagross @ Weakness Policy
Adamant 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
- Agility
- Bullet Punch
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
Set up Agility on an expected weaker Knock Off (not a bloody Crawdaunt) which it draws in so easily and punch holes :D Surprised I haven't seen more that it has worked rather well for me, though I feel like there might need to be a bit more of experimenting with Weakness Policy on this.

 

[Oddish is the best]

I'v been using this Tornadus-t set
252 speed/252 attack/ 4 hp Jolly (No item)
- Taunt
- U-turn
- Acrobatics
- knock off

Tornadus-T outspends most of the meta game and can serve as a great anti lead or revenge killer. Things like Keldeo and mega cham can't stay in on it and set up sweepers hate its fast taunt. I use it over regular tornados mainly because of regenerator and the fact that it has such a high speed that it doesn't even need prankster.

Tornadus-T also happens to be criminally underused so 1000-1200 you can get some interesting switch in's/ supposed revenge killers

 

[CascadeBeta]

I'm just saying that you have to learn to adapt and play around it like when SR was introduced in gen 4.

Adapting is fine, but you haven't told me how you adapt besides "I don't switch into knock off", whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. Stealth Rock hurts about half the Pokemon in the game, give or take, but there are ways to deal with it. Rapid Spin, not switching as often, Defog, making an anti-SR team. How are you supposed to deal with something that hurts EVERY 'mon very badly?

 

[Oddish is the best]

Adapting is fine, but you haven't told me how you adapt besides "I don't switch into knock off", whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. Stealth Rock hurts about half the Pokemon in the game, give or take, but there are ways to deal with it. Rapid Spin, not switching as often, Defog, making an anti-SR team. How are you supposed to deal with something that hurts EVERY 'mon very badly?

It doesn't hurt 'mons with a dark resist /troll response. In all seriousness, knock off is a good move but it is definitely not ban worthy because it isn't over centralizing (And if it was then SR would've been banned long ago) and has an extremely high BP once, then turns into a mediocre 65 BP move if the target wasn't forced to switch out. The STAB users of knock off are all very frail and the non-stab users are either not very offensive (Shuckle, Empoleon) or also frail (Mienshao) With an exception being made to Tornadus-T. Basically, losing an item sucks, but it isn't game breaking and most users of the move either hit very hard but are very frail or vice versa. Additionally, most teams aren't carrying more than 1 knock off user so with careful play, you can have only 1 pokemon lose an item and then promptly ko the knock off user.

Knock is a good move, but broken, no.

 

[eriados]

Chesnaught fills a completely different role from Roserade; the only things they have in common are a Grass-typing and access to Spikes. Chesnuaght is physically defensive and has a different set of resistances that allow it to wall different threats like the ever-present Dark-types. And while Roserade is a good Keldeo switch-in, it's not really the best Keldeo counter, and even if it was, the tier isn't strapped for those. See the calc below as to why Roserade is overall not an exceptional switch-in. The speed tier is a nice bonus, but hardly a breaking factor either way. And you say that about moveslots like Roserade can run all of those. Chesnaught does all it needs to do with 4 of Leech Seed, Synthesis, Hammer Arm, Seed Bomb, Spikes, Spiky Shield, and Roar. Roserade, on the other hand has trouble finding the room for a Grass move, a Poison move, coverage, a form of Spikes, Recovery, Sleep Powder, and Aromatherapy if you want to run it. This is a poor comparison anyway, as you wouldn't be taking out Roserade for Chesnaught. It's like comparing fruit to suspension bridges, the two work independently of each other.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 147-174 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

And Granbull is decent on stall, Intimidate helps the whole team, it provides cleric support, it walls prominent threats, it's actually fairly bulky with the Intimidate boost. Florges is a pretty damn good Heracross counter too.

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 159-188 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Unlike Specs Keldeo, Adamant Choice Band Heracross is a very uncommon set, and Florges can still take it pretty well considering how powerful it is. If it wants to run Knock Off, which seems to be the disputed set, it would probably be running an all-out attacker with Jolly and a Life Orb. If Heracross is doing that, there is no way it is breaking through Florges. And physically defensive Florges is its best set, don't bring up any bullshit like "most stall teams want specially defensive Florges."

Roserade is the best Keldeo counter because it doesn't lose to any set except bulky CM keldeo while slowbro and latias can be beaten by offensive Calm mind sets and ebelt sets, respectively. with a spread of 248 HP / 100 Def / 104 SDef with Calm you can avoid the 2hko from any of Specs Keldeo's moves and you still hit hard enough to do ~45% to offensive Keldeos at +1 with giga drain, effectively recovering more than they can deal to you.

Granbull sucks on stall because it doesn't have recovery, like any decent cleric should. Umbreon/Chansey/Florges provide much more utility to a team because you don't have to focus on keeping your Beller alive through other pokemon. Florges also isn't a Heracross counter (why are you listing a Max/max defense Florges? florges loses the ability to beat nearly all the special attackers it typically can with that spread) since the most common spread - Max HP - takes 54% minimum from Banded Close Combat. If you're running physically defensive florges on stall what's the point? Other things do that far better like Cofagrigus, Arcanine, etc. I seriously doubt you've played stall extensively in UU with all these questionable sets you're suggesting.

 

[CascadeBeta]

It doesn't hurt 'mons with a dark resist /troll response. In all seriousness, knock off is a good move but it is definitely not ban worthy because it isn't over centralizing (And if it was then SR would've been banned long ago) and has an extremely high BP once, then turns into a mediocre 65 BP move if the target wasn't forced to switch out. The STAB users of knock off are all very frail and the non-stab users are either not very offensive (Shuckle, Empoleon) or also frail (Mienshao) With an exception being made to Tornadus-T. Basically, losing an item sucks, but it isn't game breaking and most users of the move either hit very hard but are very frail or vice versa. Additionally, most teams aren't carrying more than 1 knock off user so with careful play, you can have only 1 pokemon lose an item and then promptly ko the knock off user.

Knock is a good move, but broken, no.

So your plan is just eat the knock off, and hope you can strike back with someone that can kill? People don't generally send their knock off user against someone that can kill them. Mienshao loves to knock off then U-turn back to safety with a quick health refill. Krookodile can get run with scarf and ensure that he's going to take out an item at the very least, if not kill the 'mon outright, then keep rolling with Moxie. Weavile can be run with a sash as a lead that is guaranteed to take both items and 'mons down with him before he falls.

You can spin away or defog rocks, or magic bounce them back. You can't get your items back once you've lost them. Even Sticky Hold doesn't help because you're constantly taking the boosted power. Unburden? How many Pokemon get Unburden? Slurpuff, Hawlucha, and Drifblim, but that's pretty much it. Hitmonlee? You don't have a lot of options here.

 

[Oddish is the best]

So your plan is just eat the knock off, and hope you can strike back with someone that can kill? People don't generally send their knock off user against someone that can kill them. Mienshao loves to knock off then U-turn back to safety with a quick health refill. Krookodile can get run with scarf and ensure that he's going to take out an item at the very least, if not kill the 'mon outright, then keep rolling with Moxie. Weavile can be run with a sash as a lead that is guaranteed to take both items and 'mons down with him before he falls.

You can spin away or defog rocks, or magic bounce them back. You can't get your items back once you've lost them. Even Sticky Hold doesn't help because you're constantly taking the boosted power. Unburden? How many Pokemon get Unburden? Slurpuff, Hawlucha, and Drifblim, but that's pretty much it. Hitmonlee? You don't have a lot of options here.

Losing items is pretty big, but it isn't ban worthy and with your Meinshao example, couldn't something just ko it after it knock's off the item? Or is that sashed too? I don't really think this argument can continue on as I'm pretty sure neither of our opinions are going to change.

 

[CascadeBeta]

Losing items is pretty big, but it isn't ban worthy and with your Meinshao example, couldn't something just ko it after it knock's off the item? Or is that sashed too? I don't really think this argument can continue on as I'm pretty sure neither of our opinions are going to change.

Couldn't something just KO M-Kanga after it gets its +2 Power Up Punch?

 

[Oddish is the best]

Couldn't something just KO M-Kanga after it gets its +2 Power Up Punch?

65/60/60 defenses on mienshao allow it to be easily killed if it uses knock off on something offensive and it lives (Which most will unless it's SE damage)

Anyways I'm done with the whole KO argument. It's getting pretty redundant and it's just kinda infuriating me now TBH

 

[CascadeBeta]

65/60/60 defenses on mienshao allow it to be easily killed if it uses knock off on something offensive and it lives (Which most will unless it's SE damage)

Anyways I'm done with the whole KO argument. It's getting pretty redundant and it's just kinda infuriating me now TBH

My point is that you picking and choosing from my points is not a good way to defend your point. You still haven't said how you should deal with knock off besides "well, you could just eat it I guess". You just keep repeating the same things over and over again. No wonder why you feel frustrated: you're going in circles!

 

[Oddish is the best]

My point is that you picking and choosing from my points is not a good way to defend your point. You still haven't said how you should deal with knock off besides "well, you could just eat it I guess". You just keep repeating the same things over and over again. No wonder why you feel frustrated: you're going in circles!

KK the move is designed to knock off an item and while that is great and all, the move isn't broken. The BP is good(When they have an item) but honestly even though counter play around the move could be lacking, it doesn't have the same effect as SR or SW. The main example of this would be that SR/SW if NOT dealt with will effect you WHOLE team as opposed to KO where you can make it effect only 1 member. Additionally, if you know that you have a pokemon that is dependent on that item than don't put it in against a KO user if you care about your item so much (Ex: Chansey, Gligar, etc). Additionally, if you think that KO if making pokemon that rely on items not viable, than I'm sorry to tell you that you're wrong. Chansey is considered one of the top walls and is a good pokemon even with KO being present. Latias is one of the most used pokemon in the tier and it takes quite a bit from KO but does it make Latias a worse pokemon? Ultimately, when considering banning a move, you should think about if the move is actually making pokemon not viable and if the metagame is being over centralized about KO. I don't think we've gotten to a point where people are running one pokeomn itemless just to be knock off bait >.>

Also, if you think Knock off is meta game breaking towards psy's and ghosts. How do you feel about pursuit? Basically, last gen in OU, Things like Lati@s and Celebi and really any psychics and ghosts could be "trapped" by a dark type move that punished pokemon with double the damage on the switch. Did this ultimately not make people not want to use Lati@s and Celebi? No, they were still regarded as top threats it was just another thing that they had to watch out for and that is excactly what KO is this gen in UU.

 

[Kingpoleon]

I'm saying that even with Knock off as a popular move it doesn't hinder Reuniclus's viability. That's all, just something to watch for.

And about the legendaries… Most Psychics with a usable BST are legendaries so… and what spy's form last gen uu are you referring too that aren't viable again this gen?

Not hindering its ability to switch in on Mienshao for free and set up. Now, to do that you will probably say 'not hindering my viability' but when something can't counter something it could last gen, it hinders it's viability.
Forcing people to run a Mega or Cobalion is stupid! Nothing likes losing an item bar maybe Hawlucha, and it doesn't like a chunk of its health getting taken out. For most moves you could say switch in a 4x resist and heal off the damage with Lefties. Pangoro/Scrafty can't heal with their Lefties and have no way of Recovery besides Rest. That chunk they just took and no item will last them throughout the game.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

lul lrn2recover

Scrafty gets Drain Punch, so he can still recover @_@ In fact Drain Punch is standard on Scrafty afaik

Honestly, your argument basically revolves around "fuck mienshao/insert fighting type here can now kill psychics BAN". Knock off has existed since like RSE, and its effect is literally the same for every generation. It's suddenly five times stronger now? ban? pls? That's really fucked up for an argument. You might as well say that we should ban Ice Beam/Icy Wind on water types because Roserade suddenly fails to hard counter Suicune and Keldeo when it's 2HKO'd.
It's a fucking coverage move dude.

Yeah Knock Off is disruptive. So is burn/toxic/paralysis. So is trickscarf. Forcing people to run a Mega/Cobalion is stupid? So likewise, forcing people to run a cleric is dumb too. :ok: It's not like Cobalion, Mega Aggron and Mega Blastoise are complete liabilities in the metagame anyway.

Oddish got the point there with Knock Off. KO isn't that ridiculous to the point where people are running itemless/mega Pokemon just to deal with Knock Off. I barely find the need for Cobalion anymore, and his relevance has pretty much declined the moment Bisharp got the boot.

 

[Kingpoleon]

A move getting five times stronger when it was decent last generation? Nope, obviously not at all strong. That argument is invalid. Anyway, if I were kokoloko I would say to not discuss bans.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

The metagame isn't a stranger to >90 BP coverage moves either. Haxorus OHKOes a Magnezone switchin with Earthquake/Superpower. Hydreigon can Fire Blast a Cobalion switching in. So Dragons now beat Steels. Yay.

I'd honestly appreciate if you actually put in more to that response other than "it's invalid", because Fighting-types now get what's simply just a one-time Earthquake followed by what's essentially degraded to Night Slash. You know, I'd honestly be interested in what would happen if Mienshao/Machamp got Night Slash instead, but that's not really relevant to the topic at hand.

Mienshao is literally the only relevant fighting-type other than Machamp (let's face it: you're never going to be facing a gurdurr, sawk, throh, hariyama or toxicroak anytime soon, and machamp is meh. heracross already fucks over psychic types with megahorn so he's left with ghost types, the most common of which is chandy who fears stone miss) that benefits from Knock Off's buff. As I said, Mienshao can already U-turn to a counter if a Psychic or a Ghost switches in, U-turn having the added benefit of being SE on the former. Knock Off just means that Mienshao can now do the job himself. Machamp is pretty mediocre and already falls under 'disruptive' with DPunch.

As for Knock Off screwing over Pokemon without reliable recovery; that's precisely why they are screwed over: because they don't have reliable recovery! Pokemon like Vaporeon can get away without leftovers because it can just wishprotect his HP back. Roserade doesn't care when it has 2 options in Giga Drain or Natural Cure Rest. Crobat has Roost. Slowbro/Tangrowth gets Regenerator. It doesn't really take that much to realise that a defensive Pokemon with reliable recovery will obviously be better than one without reliable recovery (never mind that how can it even be considered remotely 'defensive'). That's why we use Chansey for a cleric and not some weird shit like Grumpig.

 

[reale]

(let's face it: you're never going to be facing a gurdurr, sawk, throh, hariyama or toxicroak anytime soon, and machamp is meh. heracross already fucks over psychic types with megahorn so he's left with ghost types, the most common of which is chandy who fears stone miss)

how is toxicroak not be seen? bastard completely shut down m-blastoise, crawdaunt and lots of fairies. It fear psychics and earthquakes but everything has a weakness. Poison and fighting is a really good combination, I even saw an AV version once with KO/DP/SP/IP

 

[silenced]

Yeah, I think you're devaluing a few knock off users there TM13. Although it keeps getting more difficult each gen to do so, Machamp becomes even more hax-enraging behind a sub with dynamic punch and knock off in tandem, and while it may not be on par with heracross or mienshao, its still not something you really want to be dealing with.

I also Agree to an extent with reale's analysis of toxicroak. As long as we're still packing bulky waters, toxicroak has a place in UU still, especially with its major sucker punch competition in bisharp gone (Lack of STAB is unfortunate though).

Knock is also a massive buff for LO regenerator mienshao, who becomes incredibly difficult to switch into now. It is actually a major change that only physically defensive cofagrigus can take punishment from mienshao (I'm not counting bottom of the barrel things like dusclops), since knock off will 2HKO all other VIABLE ghosts, while the loss of item leaves anything other than prankster M-banette helpless against its faster speed and ability to finish them off through a second knock off. Ghosts go from stopping HJK spam to incredibly shaky checks, which is a major change, not a light one. And there's a big difference between U-turning out and finishing off something yourself.

Psychics don't fare much better. 252HP/4 DEF Mew is 2HKO'd by Knock off if it tries to switch in to LO mienshao (I am taking the loss of item into account, if anyone was suspicious). Even max def reuniclus is 2HKO'd by knock off. That makes mienshao's checks pretty much reduced to crobat and amoongus as reasonably safe checks, with nidoqueen a possible one time check. That is really a massive buff. (other slower/frail flying types are being picked off by stone edge, if you were wondering).

I also don't like the idea of crawdaunt being checked only by chesnaught (and to a lesser extent, virizion). It might be okay for faster offensive teams, but it does hurt balance and stall considerably, as there are still great pokemon who fall below max speed base 55, such as hippowdon, cofagrigus and slowbro to name a few, who are absolutely forced out by crawdaunt, and allow it to unleash KO's or heavy crippling attacks. Although gimmicky, aerial ace could be used over superpower to 2HKO chesnaught, and OHKO virizion on a switch, though losing superpower would hurt a bit when going up against hydreigon (water + dark is otherwise incredible coverage).

I don't know if knock off or even crawdaunt are 100% certainly broken, but I do think their impacts are being drastically understated in certain cases. People really should not be doing that.

Edit: In regards to crawdaunt, that was with a life orb factored in, not CB, incase people were laughing at the concept of being locked into aerial ace.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Toxicroak's relevance in the metagame has pretty much decreased once Drizzle got the boot (which was... last month? lol). Sure, it's niche in checking water types, but it's definitely not one's first choice for a fighting type. (Chesnaught arguably does that better)

As for usage stats, using January's (horribly skewed because of the bans, I know, but we don't have any others)... here's basically most of the 'offensive' knock off users you'll see around.

| 7 | Heracross | 11.74319% | 65869 | 10.886% | 52550 | 10.638% |
| 16 | Crawdaunt | 9.09813% | 51206 | 8.463% | 41606 | 8.422% |
| 31 | Mienshao | 6.26163% | 35295 | 5.833% | 30315 | 6.137% |
| 43 | Tornadus-Therian | 4.58933% | 23275 | 3.847% | 19645 | 3.977% |
| 49 | Machamp | 3.91324% | 23336 | 3.857% | 19347 | 3.916% |
| 78 | Krookodile | 2.52760% | 15860 | 2.621% | 13148 | 2.662% |
| 80 | Scrafty | 2.42783% | 16435 | 2.716% | 13374 | 2.707% |
| 91 | Escavalier | 1.82889% | 9610 | 1.588% | 8362 | 1.693% |
| 113 | Drapion | 1.11218% | 7722 | 1.276% | 6634 | 1.343% |
| 121 | Toxicroak | 0.95150% | 6669 | 1.102% | 5383 | 1.090% |
| 173 | Tornadus | 0.42510% | 2657 | 0.439% | 2183 | 0.442% |
| 200 | Hariyama | 0.28151% | 2157 | 0.356% | 1808 | 0.366% |
| 215 | Sawk | 0.24057% | 1758 | 0.291% | 1379 | 0.279% |
| 264 | Gurdurr | 0.11172% | 660 | 0.109% | 536 | 0.109% |
| 267 | Throh | 0.10636% | 805 | 0.133% | 671 | 0.136% |

Notice how Heracross, Mienshao and Machamp already has significantly more usage that Toxicroak. Heck, Machamp alone has more than twice the usage than Toxicroak/Hariyama/Sawk/Gurdurr/Throh combined. I hate to be that guy, but it is true that Toxicroak is pretty much a very rare sight in UU.

Toxicroak is never going to be as good as Bisharp in Knock Off/Sucker Punch abuse, as Toxicroak crucially loses out in 2 components: STAB, and Attack. Let's not mention how Toxicroak doesn't even run Knock Off that often (between STAB, Sucker Punch, Swords Dance and Substitute, it's really crowded for moveslots here).

Speaking of STAB: that's the one problem Fighting-types have: with the exception of Scrafty, none of them are getting STAB on Knock Off. This means that Knock Off is at the end of the day, a fucking coverage move. Hell, it's even weaker than Earthquake. We already have Superpower/EQ Haxorus and Fire Blast/Earth Power Hydreigon for ages, and nobody's complaining. (well, except maybe the dudes who nominated Haxorus, but that's not really the point here)

Mienshao is already capable of U-turning on Mew and all the other Psychic-types around into a check. Knock Off just means Mienshao can do the job himself. (goddamnit i swear this is like the third time im mentioning this) I already mentioned that Machamp falls under 'disruptive' already with Dynamic Punch, Knock Off just further accentuates that. It's still pretty mediocre though because 90/80/85 bulk is pretty average and all it really has is DP. It's also susceptible to statuses and the like. It's not shit, but it's definitely not amazing either. Scrafty and Krookodile are the last of "threatening" Knock Off users (hint: STAB) that has some actual presence, but the former isn't strong without boosting and the latter has speed issues (though it's an acceptable upgrade from crunch).

Finally, Mienshao doesn't even 2HKO 252/252+ reuniclus with knock off without 2 high damage rolls.

Yeah fuck it, this guy isn't broken. Tornadus isn't even using it to sweep. It's a move meant to cripple the opponent. It cripples the opponent just like Will-o-wisp, Toxic, Thunder Wave and Trick. Just pack a remotely physically bulky Pokemon with some recovery, and you can use it as a Knock Off bait if your team somehow struggles with it.

 

[C AllStar]

No one have actually watched at my arguments on banning Knock Off lol. Saying that tons of things can revenge kill Crawdaunt or Mienshao means nothing unless you are trying to run Keldeo or so on stall. Crawdaunt and Mienshao are frail but it doesn't mean anything when they can outspeed and 2HKO a whole stall team. I dont care if they suck but they would be broken if they limits a playstyle that much or even making it unplayable. Gothetelle is banned from UU last gen even it sucks against HO. Every single offensive fighting and psychic type have ways to beat it. Crawdaunt is only checked by shit like Chesnaught which will be utter garbage if Knock Off doesn't exist. Getting a random fighting type ad solution sucks so much that I'm not going to comment. Mienshao and Heracross are left without check due to the lack of viable fighting resists which are non-ghost/psychic types. Seriously, Florges is just too physically frail and Granbull is the worst cleric for stall possible (zero recovery and being forced out too easily sucks). It is the combination of insanely powerful abusers that push Knock Off over the edge.

People now MUST run a Knock Off absorber on stall now. However, the problem is that it isn't even near a foolproof answer to it. Its sheer power and variety of abusers make even dedicated Knock Off abusers not safe. Mega Aggron, Cobalion, Mega Blastoise etc all can easily fall to the the powerful Knock Off abusers Crawdaunt, Mienshao and Mega Absol. There is literally zero solutions that stall can do to adapt to Knock Off apart from making prediction like crazy to avoid Knock Off users from coming in. However, you just can't expect Crawdaunt and Mienshao being KOed by Chansey's freaking Seismic Toss. Unless you double switch like crazy, risking to rack up hazard damage, the Knock Off abusers can come in quite easily and wreck havoc.

Burn/toxic/paralysis is a different issue. The difference between Knock Off and them is they do not limit one playstyle. Both stall and offensive pokemon hate gets statused and being less effective on their job. Status moves do not affect the balance of the metagame. Losing an item, however, is much more disruptive for stall. Many offensive pokes do not care about their item and run things like lum berry as filler item. Some of them even prefer to lose their item on certain matchups since the common choice and LO on offense have their side effects. Trick is a bit more similar but is a much more riskier than KO. Trick has only one chance of use and if a wrong target is tricked, the whole strategy is screwed. Trick has limited distribution and their users are quitw obvious. Not to mention tricking away the item is two-sided and can reduce their effectiveness or even get something likr Black Sludge. However, KO is something that can be spammed mindlessly but still cause a lot of problem to stall.

The 1/16 health provided by Knock Off may not seem that much, but it is important in many cases to the match's outcome. The 6% difference may require a 252/252+ spreas over 252/0 to avoid a 2HKO. In order to keep checking what it is supposed to check, a pokemon need to reduce its effectiveness by using niche ev spreads. Not to say that the healing of lefties rack up and makes much more difference during the longer time period of stall wars (my battles with Adrian Marin on BH and Averagemons doesnt even end after 2XX turns).

Offensive presence is needed in stall, but you cannot expect that Crawdaunt will stay in onn things like Chesnaught's Hammer Arm. Many stall staples like Chansey and Mega Aggron cannot deal significant damage to Crawdaunt without reducing much of their effectiveness by running moves like Superpower. Mienshao is even more of a problem with Regenerator as any damage it takes can simply be healed through switching out.

It is simply not true that pokemon without reliable recovery is crippled by KO. Using reliable recovery gives one free turn while Wishtect gives one more. That is why Wish+Softboiled is far better than Wishtect on Chansey. HO focus on wearing down opponents with offensive pressure and there is not always time for stallmons to recover. The aim of stall is to outlast the opponent. Leftovers is a an important aspect for stall. Saying that pokemon without recovery cannot be considered defensive is the dumbest thing I've heard and makes me doubt that do you have any experience on pokemon. I guess Heatran and Aggron and Doublade cannot be considered fot stall.

I have been fed up with arguements saying that how frail and easy to kill. This have no relationship with stall at all. There is nothing having such an overcentraling effect on stall. Niche mons and inferior sets are uses to counter Knock Off, but its disruptive effect and great abusers makes it not a foolproof answer. Knock Off basically allows its abusers to get past their so-called counters ALL BY THEMSELVES. Yeah, the offensive capabilities of Knock Off is too much for UU.

 

[silenced]

Speaking of STAB: that's the one problem Fighting-types have: with the exception of Scrafty, none of them are getting STAB on Knock Off. This means that Knock Off is at the end of the day, a fucking coverage move. Hell, it's even weaker than Earthquake. We already have Superpower/EQ Haxorus and Fire Blast/Earth Power Hydreigon for ages, and nobody's complaining. (well, except maybe the dudes who nominated Haxorus, but that's not really the point here)

Mienshao is already capable of U-turning on Mew and all the other Psychic-types around into a check. Knock Off just means Mienshao can do the job himself. (goddamnit i swear this is like the third time im mentioning this) I already mentioned that Machamp falls under 'disruptive' already with Dynamic Punch, Knock Off just further accentuates that. It's still pretty mediocre though because 90/80/85 bulk is pretty average and all it really has is DP. It's also susceptible to statuses and the like. It's not shit, but it's definitely not amazing either. Scrafty and Krookodile are the last of "threatening" Knock Off users (hint: STAB) that has some actual presence, but the former isn't strong without boosting and the latter has speed issues (though it's an acceptable upgrade from crunch).

Finally, Mienshao doesn't even 2HKO 252/252+ reuniclus with knock off without 2 high damage rolls.

Yeah fuck it, this guy isn't broken. Tornadus isn't even using it to sweep. It's a move meant to cripple the opponent. It cripples the opponent just like Will-o-wisp, Toxic, Thunder Wave and Trick. Just pack a remotely physically bulky Pokemon with some recovery, and you can use it as a Knock Off bait if your team somehow struggles with it.

You don't seem to understand how irrelevant it is that knock off doesn't get STAB, when it allows you to bypass most your usual checks and counters. I agree with you that I was wrong about toxicroak, and the points about machamp were right, but lets get some things straight.
1. Even if it does require high damage rolls, a potential 2HKO is still a potential 2HKO. Please do not attempt to undersell a very important point in regards to the effectiveness of how pokemon can use knock off, when its obvious how dangerous it actually is.
2. Like I said, there's a big difference between U-turning out of a pokemon, and 2HKO'ing a pokemon. Take a plausible in-game scenario for a second.
-Your opponent has mienshao out on the field. You currently have...oh lets say for the sake of an argument a non-choice scarfed hydreigon.
-Your opponent also has a crawdaunt in reserve. You would like to keep hydreigon healthy to make sure it can at least tank a crawdaunt hit once, so you switch to mew.
-Mienshao used Knock off. You now have a near dead Mew, and no way to KO Mienshao before it KO's you. At this point, given the lack of risk in spamming knock off, you either have to sack mew, or have another one of your pokemon lose an item. I don't think you understand how big of an advantage that would truly be.

Whereas if you U-turn, sure you get momentum for it, but you have to convert that momentum back into advantage, which against pokemon like mew, isn't always as clear cut to achieve. KO'ing what would otherwise be a hard stop to your set, without compromising your movepool is an incredible advantage, arguable moreso than simply u-turning

I also have my doubts on the usage stats. I'm not saying all of it is wrong, but I am somewhat surprised that Torn-t is that low and I would think things will change on that list significantly, which would give knock-off a chance to become a prominent weapon.

You also ignored my points on Crawdaunt. I wouldn't mind your thoughts on that either, since you did go to a lot of trouble to get usage stats for me to debunk most of my points.

I agree for the msot part it is a disruption move, but to outright denying it to be a major threat on the right pokemon is blatant ignorance on your behalf. Please don't do that.

 

[Golemman]

No one have actually watched at my arguments on banning Knock Off lol. Saying that tons of things can revenge kill Crawdaunt or Mienshao means nothing unless you are trying to run Keldeo or so on stall. Crawdaunt and Mienshao are frail but it doesn't mean anything when they can outspeed and 2HKO a whole stall team.Crawdaunt is only checked by shit like Chesnaught which will be utter garbage if Knock Off doesn't exist. Getting a random fighting type ad solution sucks so much that I'm not going to comment. Mienshao and Heracross are left without check due to the lack of viable fighting resists which are non-ghost/psychic types. Seriously, Florges is just too physically frail and Granbull is the worst cleric for stall possible (zero recovery and being forced out too easily sucks). It is the combination of insanely powerful abusers that push Knock Off over the edge.

Bro, do you even pokemon?

 

[Mudkip727]

Can we PLEASE stop the discuss about knock off? It's like 5~6 pages scince we started it, and we know it's overpowered, and we know we'll have to use checks, not counters as they are easily checked by their slow speed in crawduant's case, or frailty in weavile's case. It's just how the metagame changes, if it is a talk about being broken, was stealth rock banned when introduced in gen4? NO, or else I'l be using power creeps like volcarona, talomflame, yanmega and heck, articuno. it's overpowered but we just got to accept it and rather ban strong users of it. So let's discuss other threats and other ideas PLEASE!!

 

[RowDog]

Here is a show of how "broken" Knock off etc. is http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-86146973. I fucking stalled out what appears to be a Choice Band Crawdaunt with a fucking Specially Defensive Mew. No defence investment and max 248HP EVs. Burn a Knock off user and stall for days with a Psychic Pokemon, lololol.