Klefki isn't the only pokemon, you know. Foul Play is a legitimate move to get advantage of the non-haxy part of Swagger. So Foul Play is not the problem. If you allow Swagger+Prankster, however, there will still be a big enough group of people that will complain of losing control of the battle. And no, that ban is by no means too complex (just see the history of the bans of Endless Battle Clause), but it's not the right thing to do.
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SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)
- Thread starter haunter
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Klefki isn't the only pokemon, you know. Foul Play is a legitimate move to get advantage of the non-haxy part of Swagger. So Foul Play is not the problem. If you allow Swagger+Prankster, however, there will still be a big enough group of people that will complain of losing control of the battle. And no, that ban is by no means too complex (just see the history of the bans of Endless Battle Clause), but it's not the right thing to do.
I honestly think you are trolling at this point. You're basically saying everything good that happens in life is because one was lucky.
See this is the problem with this discussion, and I'm not specifically calling you out shadows, this is just a recent example.
We're allowing discussion for 3 options, banning Swagger, banning Prankster+Swagger, and banning individual pokemon. I've seen a lot of random suggestions that are really unneccesary and just pointless and that's the biggest problem with this potential ban. I understand some suggestions relating to this potential ban, but unbanning OHKO moves and the like, are ridiculous.
Basically what I'm trying to say is, this discussion (while certainly necessary) will make people think that because we are open to discuss potential bans that make the game based on chance, it will expose so many other potential bans that people want to have.
Now in terms of the action we should take, I'm going to try and stay away from that. I definetly think that something should be done, but I'm probably the least qualified to have a say on what kind of ban there should be.
Sorry if it's a bit hard to follow; I'm writing this on my phone.
I am not trolling I am just pointing a point that had to be made.
The problem with long discussions is that people don't read the OP.
Yeah Mandibuzz should go back to NU anyway.
Don't ban Foul Play please.
I said that SOME suggestions are unneccesary, like banning Foul Play or unbanning OHKO moves. Other suggestions like Swagger+Foul Play ARE reasonable and I don't have a problem with.
Or the superior being Numel decided that you were worthy of success
And however we define "luck," there's an obvious difference between taking a risk in predicting a switch, and trying to attack Klefki
By complex I meant if it is too hard to enforce on the simulator. Think Sleep Clause: The simulator doesn't let you put two Pokemon to sleep. I was wondering if the simulator could prevent you from putting Foul Play and Swagger on the same set.
Foul Play was never the problem, using Foul Play in conjunction with Swagger is lol. Losing control of what? Swagger is canceled out by switching...
The simulator wouldn't stop you from putting them on the same set, but it would stop you from using that set in an OU battle
And even though swagger is canceled out, when your opponent has prankster, it's pretty simple for him to just reapply it and you're left right where you started, he wasted a turn setting it up, but you wasted a turn switching out, so assuming you don't hurt yourself on the turn it sets up, you're left dead even. The problem is prankster + swagger, foul play just makes it more viable
The problem is that if you miss that one 50% chance, Klefki has essentially won, since it can spam Substitute until you hit yourself with confusion, then kill with Foul Play.
IT'S NOT ABOUT BEING UNDEFEATABLE IT'S ABOUT IT BEING UNCOMPETITIVE! JESUS PEOPLE READ THE THREAD!
You would also learn that people have climbed the ladder to a strong ranking just by using this strategy and the dumb luck it brings.
How hard is it to understand that you must read the thread before posting, or your "point" is most likely crap that's been discussed on and on and on and on in 50+ pages?
Said I wasn't gonna get into this, but there's been a few people who don't see banning Swagger as a good course of action.
I've been messing around with Swagger / Toxic / Draining Kiss / Substitute Klefki recently, and this thing is just as good as Parafusion Foul Play, if not better against players that know how to deal with most Klefki. Toxic puts an end to bulky special attackers that try to persevere through Swagger's effects, plus the residual damage wears down the opposing team far more effectively if they try to play smart and switch around. Swagger forces switches, grabs free turns, etc. Draining Kiss is quite useful, if a bit more stally than Foul Play, though I will say that the damage is missed.
My point is that the potential bans don't really fix Swagger abuse. PranksterSwag can be replaced by quite a few speedy mons, Swagger + Foul Play leaves it crippled offensively, but still leaves it ways to mess other teams up, TWave isn't even needed for Swagger to work at all, and banning Klefki and Liepard on their own is unnecessary and doesn't actually fix the problem. Meanwhile, I've seen one good argument for keeping Swagger, which was for phazing purposes, but when's the last time you actually saw someone use Swagger as a phazing move? No one does, its unreliable as hell and can backfire horribly on you. The only thing Swagger does is crank the hax levels up and raises the stakes for being on the losing side of a coin flip. I don't any reason not to ban Swagger, frankly.
I've been messing around with Swagger / Toxic / Draining Kiss / Substitute Klefki recently, and this thing is just as good as Parafusion Foul Play, if not better against players that know how to deal with most Klefki. Toxic puts an end to bulky special attackers that try to persevere through Swagger's effects, plus the residual damage wears down the opposing team far more effectively if they try to play smart and switch around. Swagger forces switches, grabs free turns, etc. Draining Kiss is quite useful, if a bit more stally than Foul Play, though I will say that the damage is missed.
My point is that the potential bans don't really fix Swagger abuse. PranksterSwag can be replaced by quite a few speedy mons, Swagger + Foul Play leaves it crippled offensively, but still leaves it ways to mess other teams up, TWave isn't even needed for Swagger to work at all, and banning Klefki and Liepard on their own is unnecessary and doesn't actually fix the problem. Meanwhile, I've seen one good argument for keeping Swagger, which was for phazing purposes, but when's the last time you actually saw someone use Swagger as a phazing move? No one does, its unreliable as hell and can backfire horribly on you. The only thing Swagger does is crank the hax levels up and raises the stakes for being on the losing side of a coin flip. I don't any reason not to ban Swagger, frankly.
I've been noticing that complex bans are sort of a taboo here. Why is that?
Getting predictions right is not luck, it's skill. It involves mind games and knowledge of the metagame. You must understand how your opponent thinks and what he knows about you, and predict how he will move. But confusion is decided by the RNG, not by the players. So it's just luck.
I'd like to see you telling a chess player that he won because he was lucky. It's the same thing, it involves prediction and mind games. The difference is that chess is 100% skill, while Pokemon is mostly skill with a healthy dose of luck (which stops being healthy when Swagplay comes in).
Getting predictions right is not luck, it's skill. It involves mind games and knowledge of the metagame. You must understand how your opponent thinks and what he knows about you, and predict how he will move. But confusion is decided by the RNG, not by the players. So it's just luck.
I'd like to see you telling a chess player that he won because he was lucky. It's the same thing, it involves prediction and mind games. The difference is that chess is 100% skill, while Pokemon is mostly skill with a healthy dose of luck (which stops being healthy when Swagplay comes in).
Speedy confusion in no way can be compared to priority confusion, specially not this generation.
The same could be said with Rapid Spin/Defog and Stealth Rocks. Why would you run a -1 Evasion move or a 20 BP Normal move? At least Safeguard controls Paralysis, Burn, and Poison, as well as anti-hax on Ice Beam.
The problem appears to be priority. Ban priority. no, not really....
That could be said for lots of things.
What if your flying/psychic type gets KO'd against M-Venasaur? You get wrecked.
What if you don't have any ice type move users left against Garchomp? Pretty much wrecked.
What if you lose your spinner/defogger and the enemy still has hazard inducers? Basically GG.
So how is SwagPlay different? It has a set list of counters and checks just like everything else, and just because you can't play around it doesn't make it broken.
-1 Evasion. i don't actually get that. Those moves serve a purpose to help a team, if Safeguard is used for that purpose (i.e setting up in the face of a primarily status oriented mon etc.) While Rapid Spin is used to patch up a weakness/support your team. Rapid Spin support can be justified, much less os than Safeguard. Priority makes it so deadly though.
We're not saying it's broken, we're saying it's uncompetitive. And it has counters and checks? Name some things that counter/check SwagPlay that other people have not mentioned in the 50+ previous pages.
What if your flying/psychic type gets KO'd against M-Venasaur? You get wrecked.
You can still beat Mvena, still some trouble.
What if you don't have any ice type move users left against Garchomp? Pretty much wrecked.
Nope, 4x weaknesses aren't the only way to win against Dragons.
What if you lose your spinner/defogger and the enemy still has hazard inducers? Basically GG.
No, it does not wreck you unless Articuno, Charizard, Scyther, Volcarona and Moltres are staples on your team.
Swagplay is coinflips, which is different, though the only thing that holds some merit in that argument is the MVena point.
AND FOR THE FUCKING FINAL TIME, NO ONE IS GOING TO BAN SWAGPLAY BECAUSE IT IS BROKEN, NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT IT IS. Uncompetitive is the word.
I had to, I'm sorry.
"Name some counters, but not the one mentioned before"
Yeah ok.
I'm still not getting this "uncompetitive" argument. Unlike the other "uncompetitive" ban of Funbro that seeks to never end a battle, Swagplay is an aggressive playstyle that just uses a combination of moves and abilities to win. It's as competitive as any other "reliable luck" like Fiery Dance, confusion, paraflinch, parafusion, and Serene Grace.
Banning prankster + swagger is both lame and a cop out. The whole point of the ability is to get more use out of status moves like swagger, and taking one of the better status moves away because you can't handle it is sad and pathetic. There is nothing wrong with that combination outside of how annoying you might personally find it. The only time it is a problem is when used in conjunction with twave. If banning them together is to complex for you then just leave it alone for gods sake. To the people that want swagger banned on its own, even without prankster, you are literally 3 year old children in my mind and you should be embarrassed for being so soft.
The way I look at this situation is like this. There is a tumor in Michael Jordan's calf, and over half of you are suggesting that you amputate him from the waist down rather than just cut out the problem area. It's not even complex! Just treat it like an egg move! If you have swagger on a prankster pokemon you can't have twave, and vice-versa. End of swagplay.
The way I look at this situation is like this. There is a tumor in Michael Jordan's calf, and over half of you are suggesting that you amputate him from the waist down rather than just cut out the problem area. It's not even complex! Just treat it like an egg move! If you have swagger on a prankster pokemon you can't have twave, and vice-versa. End of swagplay.
I say that because all of those previous "counters/checks" have been shot down. If you had read a majority or some of the thread you would see that.
Uncompetitive means taking skill out of the game. Swagplay = Alright, heads or tails, call it. The match is decided like that.
The point is that, far from being "reliable" luck, confusion is LITERALLY a 50/50 coinflip. Not reliable. The secondary effect of Fiery Dance is just a bonus, and paraflinch (the only semi-reliable abuse of Serene Grace) has already been addressed multiple times.
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