np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]

[KM]

Revised Magnezone calcs:
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 204-240 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is assuming Camerupt switches in on the attack. Then the next move is
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 135-160 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So Camerupt may die if Magnezone has Analytic (and it usually will). However, Camerupt's EVs can be tinkered a bit:
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 80 HP / 252 SpD Camerupt: 153-180 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 80 HP / 252 SpD Camerupt: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- 36.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

With the highest damage rolls Camerupt will live with .4% HP and easily KO with Earth Power.

What if Magnezone has an Air Balloon?

Turn 1: Camerupt switches in:
+1 252+ SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 80 HP / 252 SpD Camerupt: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- 36.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Turn 2: Magnezone attacks again:
252+ SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 80 HP / 252 SpD Camerupt: 68-81 (22.5 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
176+ SpA Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 348-410 (101.1 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even if Fire Blast misses Camerupt can survive a third Flash Cannon and go for the kill again.

Therefore I propose an EV spread of 80 HP/176 SpA/252 SpD. Most physical attacks (a.k.a. Earthquake) would kill it anyway, even with the traditional EV spread, so the loss of physical bulk doesn't hurt Camerupt much. Plus it has access to Will-o-Wisp if it wants to run that.



It sounds kind of cool, but it wouldn't get enough play to be considered a major tier. You basically have two options: 1) Spam the OP Pokemon; 2) Test obscure counters to the OP Pokemon (like the Camerupt I suggested earlier for Magnezone).

Camerupt isn't really that good of a poke outside of being a dubious counter to Magnezone, though. Furthermore, Camerupt sort of lacks any reliable recovery, and because Specs Analytic Flash Cannon is doing more than 50%, and because Camerupt doesn't have significant enough offensive/defensive pressure to really do all too much, all that Magnezone has to do to break Camerupt as a wall is flash cannon him, switch out, and come back to the sweep later on.

Also, the 100% survival of two flash cannons from the specs set assumes that there aren't any hazards on the field whatsoever. Even if it's just stealth rocks, suddenly that's not a hard counter anymore.

Honestly though even if Camerupt were as hard of a counter as you claim it to be, I don't see how it'd prove anything else than Magnezone's inherent brokenness. Outside of "countering" Magnezone, Camerupt really has no place in the meta; if a pokemon is so overcentralizing that it forces an objectively inferior poke to be used in order to counter it, that's a real issue.

 

[mallpal]

not a counter

Rotom-H - Volt switches out on it
Mega-Manectric- Only a check/counter if it remains in regular form (which is complete ass) otherwise
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 113-133 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Swampert- I'm pretty sure all Magnezone's carry HP grass but maybe you're a prediction god idk

Quagsire- See Swampert

Gastro- No point running HP ice on Salamence hits dragons for the same damage as HP ice (besides Zygarde which still can't switch safely into a Flash Cannon)

Nidoking/Queen-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 355-418 (116.7 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 126 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 319-376 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I'd hate to see an unsafe switch in.

Celebi- Easy volt switch into appropriate check/counter

What you seem to assume is that because Magnezone doesn't beat a mon 1v1 if you are both in at the same time e.g. coming in on a double down, that it is getting countered. The whole point of Magnezone is to come in on the useful resists it has or on walls that can't really damage it and to hit back the other team with extremely powerful analytic specs attacks (as analytic boosts the power of moves when the opponent switches). However, there are Pokemon that can come in on Magnezone such as Celebi, Porygon2, Umbreon. But what happens when the opponent volt switches into say, Mienshao. Then all of a sudden, your 'counter' to Magnezone has turned you into a sitting duck to Mienshao. This is why Magnezone was broken, not only could it kill things but it could also leave you in an extremely advantageous position against so called 'counters' to Magnezone. With the few mons that did counter it, a simple volt switch could cause almost force another mon to die without Magnezone even having to kill it.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-94224182

Here is an example of a game my friend was playing with a team I made. The idea of the team was to exploit the few switch ins Magnezone had and punish said switch ins. This type of strategy is known to most as 'Volturn'. Here the opponent had two pretty solid answers to Magnezone in Celebi and Chansey, however, what he didn't have a solid answer for, was the imminent Volt Switch. From this, you can see just how easily Magnezone was able to bait him into mons that Mienshao could destroy and at one stage, he was in a cycle of around 5-6 turns with Magnezone and Mienshao gaining free momentum for each other.

So yeah I hope that kind of explained a bit better why Magnezone was considered broken by the UU Council :]

Edit: And if you say 'oh but if he had a Ground Type'

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-94229585

Believe me, the Ground Type didn't help :]

hey, the ground type helped a little :s

but yeah, those replays are good examples of just how potent magnezone could be in uu with the right team support. there was not really anything i could do.

 

[Ununhexium]

is there a suspect vote to decide whether or not it is broken? if there is, what is the cutoff rating?

anyways, are there any things banned for retests that were not broken in your opinion? i didnt think houndoomite or haxorus was overly overwhelming

 

[Schpoonman]

The UU Council votes on whether or not something is broken. If vote is "Yes" on at least half the Council members (6 out of 12), then it is banned. Everything banned, that is banned, not gone to OU like Chansey and Keldeo, will be retested in the future. We are going to begin testing with least-likely to most-likely. Thundurus-Therian is currently being tested again in UU.

Currently, no suspect tests are being held in UU. Come on, man, this has all been said in the past. Gotta keep up.

 

[Kingpoleon]

not a counter

Rotom-H - Volt switches out on it
Mega-Manectric- Only a check/counter if it remains in regular form (which is complete ass) otherwise
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 113-133 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Swampert- I'm pretty sure all Magnezone's carry HP grass but maybe you're a prediction god idk

Quagsire- See Swampert

Gastro- No point running HP ice on Salamence hits dragons for the same damage as HP ice (besides Zygarde which still can't switch safely into a Flash Cannon)

Nidoking/Queen-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 355-418 (116.7 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 126 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 319-376 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I'd hate to see an unsafe switch in.

Celebi- Easy volt switch into appropriate check/counter

What you seem to assume is that because Magnezone doesn't beat a mon 1v1 if you are both in at the same time e.g. coming in on a double down, that it is getting countered. The whole point of Magnezone is to come in on the useful resists it has or on walls that can't really damage it and to hit back the other team with extremely powerful analytic specs attacks (as analytic boosts the power of moves when the opponent switches). However, there are Pokemon that can come in on Magnezone such as Celebi, Porygon2, Umbreon. But what happens when the opponent volt switches into say, Mienshao. Then all of a sudden, your 'counter' to Magnezone has turned you into a sitting duck to Mienshao. This is why Magnezone was broken, not only could it kill things but it could also leave you in an extremely advantageous position against so called 'counters' to Magnezone. With the few mons that did counter it, a simple volt switch could cause almost force another mon to die without Magnezone even having to kill it.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-94224182

Here is an example of a game my friend was playing with a team I made. The idea of the team was to exploit the few switch ins Magnezone had and punish said switch ins. This type of strategy is known to most as 'Volturn'. Here the opponent had two pretty solid answers to Magnezone in Celebi and Chansey, however, what he didn't have a solid answer for, was the imminent Volt Switch. From this, you can see just how easily Magnezone was able to bait him into mons that Mienshao could destroy and at one stage, he was in a cycle of around 5-6 turns with Magnezone and Mienshao gaining free momentum for each other.

So yeah I hope that kind of explained a bit better why Magnezone was considered broken by the UU Council :]

Edit: And if you say 'oh but if he had a Ground Type'

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-94229585

Believe me, the Ground Type didn't help :]

Rotom-C? I wouldn't recommend it, but you are pretty sure "all Magnezone run HP Grass" aka not Ice. Galvantula, Mega Ampharos, and Ferroseed.
Celebi hates this thing:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Anyway, the following viable Pokémon counter it: Mega Ampharos, Ferroseed, Steelix, Rotom-H, and Rotom-C.(Galv can also safely switch in once, but not counter).
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Steelix: 153-180 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-H: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- 83.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 63-75 (21.5 - 25.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 4HKO
Is there anything you want to question on that list? I am not saying that Magnezone was not broken(it most certainly was); just that you are making it seem like there were less counters than there really were.

 

[EonX]

Honestly, Mega Ampharos was about the only common thing that stood a chance against Magnezone. Sure, Zone could gain momentum with Volt Switch, but M-Ampharos is one of the very few 4x Electric-type resists in the tier and it also packs a 2x Steel resistance to make sure Flash Cannon couldn't break it down too quickly (unlike with the Nidos and Hippo) Aside from M-Ampharos, nothing was really safe on a switch-in.

Anyhow, finally able to get a few games in, and Thundurus-T is proving quite difficult to handle. Between Double Dance, NP+3 Attacks, Agility+3 Attacks, Mixed Attacker, and Choice sets, it's pretty damn hard to save the right things for it. You could save your revenge killer for a possible NP set, only to find out that it just used Agility on your ass. Saving your wall for an Agility set? Whoops, it just used Nasty Plot. Mixed and Choice sets don't even need a turn to set up. They just try to wreck your shit immediately. Basically, you can be playing well the entire game, but if you saved the right Pokemon for the wrong set, you're dead. end of story. You could have Porygon2 saved up, but it suddenly gets hit with Knock Off or Superpower when it comes in... Well, it can't reliably check Thundurus-T again for the rest of the match. That Choice Scarf Darmanitan you had to revenge kill it is great. Too bad it turned out to be an Agility set and your wall is already too low on HP to handle it. Also, VoltTurn teams hate this thing. Resists U-turn and unless your name is Mega Ampharos, you can't afford to use Volt Switch due to the threat of this thing having a free turn to do whatever the hell it wants. The Rocks weakness hurts, but there's 3 great entry hazard removers that pair very well with it. Mega Blastoise can wallbreak for Thundurus-T. Oh by the way, Thundy-T is immune to Electric and resists Grass. Empoleon is a great fallback option for Thundy-T as the penguin resists all super effective moves. Oh by the way, Thundy-T is completely immune to not one, but two of Empoleon's weaknesses and resists the 3rd. And then there's Tentacruel, another bulky fallback option for Thundurus-T. The synergy is much the same as with Empoleon, minus the fact Tenta can't cover Rock.

 

[Calloflochie]

Rotom-C? I wouldn't recommend it, but you are pretty sure "all Magnezone run HP Grass" aka not Ice. Galvantula, Mega Ampharos, and Ferroseed.
Celebi hates this thing:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Anyway, the following viable Pokémon counter it: Mega Ampharos, Ferroseed, Steelix, Rotom-H, and Rotom-C.(Galv can also safely switch in once, but not counter).
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Steelix: 153-180 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-H: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- 83.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 63-75 (21.5 - 25.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 4HKO
Is there anything you want to question on that list? I am not saying that Magnezone was not broken(it most certainly was); just that you are making it seem like there were less counters than there really were.

Did you even bother to read my post? Literally the first line is:
What you seem to assume is that because Magnezone doesn't beat a mon 1v1 if you are both in at the same time e.g. coming in on a double down, that it is getting countered.
I then went on to say that even the most solid special walls (Umbreon, Chansey while it was still around and Porygon2) may be able to counter Magnezone in turns of it getting a kill, but what they can't account for is the Volt Switch, one simple move that completely turns them from being in a 'favourable' position to being in the same predicament that Magnezone had caused the mon before.

I'll use the Heatran/Genesect example again cause it's such a good example. Heatran without a shadow of a doubt counters the standard, repeat, STANDARD Genesect moveset of Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Iron Head whatever, but what, in my opinion, it doesn't counter is the fact that Genesect can U-turn. All of a sudden your 'reliable counter' is trapped by say a Dugtrio and with that, your 'reliable counter' to Genesect now just became a sitting duck to Dugtrio. This same thing can be applied to Magnezone, albeit the fact that the mon coming in may not have a trapping ability, the logic still applies that it is not only what Magnezone could do in terms of killing but also what it was capable of in turning an unfavourable match up into a favourable one while still dealing a solid 25-30% to these dedicated special walls.

Switch-in is the key point to why Magnezone was so good, you say those things countered Magnezone and sure, a Magnezone locked into Thunderbolt or Flash Cannon or whatever is countered by those mons but I don't think that if a mon can gain momentum, still do decent damage and again force a losing situation for an opponent, then that switch-in is classified as a counter.

I hope next time, you actually read my entire post before commenting because I did explain it in a way that said that there are good /switch ins/ to Magnezone but not necessarily good counters to Volt Switch. Thanks.

Edit: EonX- The same logic applies to your Ampharos argument, I think Mega-Amp is a super cool mon and everything and yes it does resist electric 4x and steel 2x so Magnezone locking itself into Thunderbolt/Flash Cannon is complete bait for Mega-Amp but idk, I just can't justify a mon being a counter if by the end of the turn, the match up for the opponent is not favourable regardless of how good the special wall/counter may be.

 

[NeinLives]

Rocks will probably see more use if Thundurus comes back for testing, haven't seen all that much Rocks this gen.

 

[RosebloomNixie]

Thick Fat Piloswine only loses to Focus Blast variants.
With an optimum spread. Piloswine can 2hko with Ice Shard (OHKO easy with Icicle Crash) without rocks and survive a single focus blast at +0. At +2, it takes pittance from it even from HP Ice.

I'm trialing it atm. It'd still be able to take one attack at +2 and KO it back even without eviolite.

 

[Patrick1088]

What about rotom-h as a decent check to thundy t. It handles the double dance set easily. The only move it has to worry about is a boosted focus blast. But, that would mean its the np plus 3 moves. Ive been running trickscarf and locking it into focus blast, superpower or a boosting move stops it pretty easily imo.

 

[Punchshroom]

After some test runs, I can conclude that dual Electrics is the new 'dual Dragons', albeit less extreme but not any less powerful.

These two when paired together have the potential to tear all of UU a new asshole. Nasty Plot Thundurus-T uses its diverse wallbreaking movepool to break open many walls, while Agility Mega Ampharos sweeps the opponent. The best part is that they can easily switch roles, with Mega Amph using its insane Special Attack to punch holes in the opponent, while Thundy-T uses its above average Speed to clean up the scraps. Oh, and both Pokemon give zero shits about Tornadus-T, so if you're sick of that bird this is a nice way to get revenge.

When I say Thundurus-T's movepool is diverse, it's not so much that it has perfect all-round neutral coverage, but that it can easily hit almost any problem Pokemon it encounters with the right move. Yeah, Hidden Power Ice is 'okay' for neutral coverage, and is probably the best move to pair with TBolt on Double Dance, but Nasty Plot + 3 attacks Thundy-T can use:
- Grass Knot to destroy Swampert and Hippowdon
- Sludge Wave to hit Celebi, Shaymin, Florges, and Chesnaught
- Psychic to strike Amoonguss, Roserade, the Nidos, and Chesnaught (again)
- Focus Blast to break Umbreon, Porygon2, and Kyurem
....paving the way for Mega Amph to sweep, although it is already very difficult responding to Thundy-T itself before you can deduce its entire moveset without irreparably crippling your team.

The main reason I listed Focus Blast last as one of Thundy-T's coverage moves is because Ampharos already gets it, so Thundy-T might as well focus on opponents Mega Amph cannot already take on. Mega Amph has essentially perfect neutral coverage between its STABs and Focus Blast, and while its Speed is bad, +2 Modest Mega Ampharos outspeeds Timid Tornadus-T, though it falls short on Noivern. Modest Mega Amph also speedties with 0 Spe Nidoqueen, so it can still outrun a good majority of walls if need be. Agility is a nice way to temporarily use its Dragon STAB without subjecting it to its additional weaknesses. You can set up on a faster Dragon / Ice move, Agility, then Mega Evolve to pummel them with STAB Dragon Pulse.

There aren't a lot of Pokemon that can stop these two (Rotom-H may stop Thundy-T but does jack to Mega Amph), so expect this to be the core to beat.

 

[-Flygon-]

I think that a BL tier, or an MU (Moderately Used), could work. It's basically everything but OU and Ubers are allowed, so those who disagree with a ban, or whose favorite pokemon were banned, could play the same game, essentially. I see no flaws with this, because you would be choosing a tier with these threats, so you can't complain. It would also help to find new checks and counters for these Pokemon, so maybe then some obscure pokemon, like the Camerupt idea from Explorer. Whether you agree or not, I firmly believe that this tier would be a decent tier, and would stop the complaints and arguments about the bans.

 

[Turtleye]

I think that a BL tier, or an MU (Moderately Used), could work. It's basically everything but OU and Ubers are allowed, so those who disagree with a ban, or whose favorite pokemon were banned, could play the same game, essentially. I see no flaws with this, because you would be choosing a tier with these threats, so you can't complain. It would also help to find new checks and counters for these Pokemon, so maybe then some obscure pokemon, like the Camerupt idea from Explorer. Whether you agree or not, I firmly believe that this tier would be a decent tier, and would stop the complaints and arguments about the bans.

Honestly, what you are suggesting is just UU with the currently banned Pokemon. That would just turn into Brokefest UU anyway, since the only things people would ever run are Kyurem-B, Drizzle, Manaphy, Landorus-I, Weavile and Salamence.
If you would really want to use those Pokemon, use them in OU. they have no business here because they were deemed by the UU council to be too powerful for the UU tier to handle.

And it probably wouldn't happen since that BL tier would become UU, and the current UU would move down to be RU, etc. And I do not think Smogon wants that.

Anyway, Punchshroom , thats a really interesting core. But wouldn't a Volt Switching duo work better for them?

 

[EonX]

Calloflochie , well, I did (and still do) run a physDef Mega Ampharos that carries RestTalk, so I was generally able to hold up against it so long as the opponent didn't send something in that could straight KO me. Of course, the Zone switch is also sometimes predictable, and Mega Ampharos is slow as shit, so Analytic wouldn't activate if I predicted the switch-in. Of course, this is niche and didn't always work, but M-Ampharos is about the sturdiest answer I found to Zone that didn't risk a 2HKO to any attack it commonly carried.

Punchshroom , I would think role reversal would fit pretty well with that core. M-Ampharos has the neutral coverage to break down most walls while Thundurus-T has solid raw power to still do some serious damage without a NP boost. Also, someone finally understands my trouble point on Thundurus-T. Coverage and set flexibility makes it damn hard to play against. Right idea, but wrong set? Well, too bad. You're gone.

 

[-Flygon-]

Honestly, what you are suggesting is just UU with the currently banned Pokemon. That would just turn into Brokefest UU anyway, since the only things people would ever run are Kyurem-B, Drizzle, Manaphy, Landorus-I, Weavile and Salamence.
If you would really want to use those Pokemon, use them in OU. they have no business here because they were deemed by the UU council to be too powerful for the UU tier to handle.

And it probably wouldn't happen since that BL tier would become UU, and the current UU would move down to be RU, etc. And I do not think Smogon wants that.

Anyway, Punchshroom , thats a really interesting core. But wouldn't a Volt Switching duo work better for them?

I understand what you are saying, and I don't completely agree with what you're saying. True, many people would use some of the banned Pokemon, and a couple of people might spam them, but the point is that it would be the people's UU. It may not make sense to anyone here, but I believe that these Pokemon if numerous enough, should get a new home in MU. This is just my opinion, so do with it what you will.

 

[viol and bass]

If you have Darmanitan or Victini on your team, I always assume you will lead with it, and I am ALWAYS right.

Stop it.

Also I've been using the physically defensive Mega-Ampharos somebody posted awhile ago and it's fantastic. Just got to number 1 on the ladder due in large part to this set. It's the reason why leading with Darmanitan/Victini gets my opponent nowhere.

Oh, also Shaymin is fucking fantastic.

 

[Punchshroom]

Anyway, Punchshroom , thats a really interesting core. But wouldn't a Volt Switching duo work better for them?

That's fine if you want to use them as Volt Switchers, but they'll have to forgo boosting sets since Volt Switch eats away at their coverage (Scarf Thundurus-T + RestTalk Mega Ampharos???). This core offers a much more offensive alternative, able to keep tremendous offensive pressure on the opponent.

Punchshroom , I would think role reversal would fit pretty well with that core. M-Ampharos has the neutral coverage to break down most walls while Thundurus-T has solid raw power to still do some serious damage without a NP boost. Also, someone finally understands my trouble point on Thundurus-T. Coverage and set flexibility makes it damn hard to play against. Right idea, but wrong set? Well, too bad. You're gone.

Could've sworn I mentioned that bit about the role reversal in there, since what makes this core so damn good is that they can very easily just up and switch places to replicate the other's roles. Mega Amph hits like a bitch and is really bulky (and can even play around with its lack of Dragon-type by not Mega Evolving on faster foes before Agility), but its coverage is at least predictable, but Thundy-T hits hard, has a good speed tier, and has an extensive movepool that can strike damn near every possible Electric resist / special sponge super effectively (we're not even talking neutral coverage anymore), and that is pretty scary.

 

[EonX]

You did Punchshroom , but I was trying to get at the fact I feel that it's better to use M-Ampharos as the hard hitter sometimes considering it's much, much slower. But, of course, it does have much better bulk, which means that just outspeeding it isn't good enough. (a lot like resisting or being immune to Electric-type moves from Thundurus-T isn't nearly good enough)

 

[Punchshroom]

You did Punchshroom , but I was trying to get at the fact I feel that it's better to use M-Ampharos as the hard hitter sometimes considering it's much, much slower. But, of course, it does have much better bulk, which means that just outspeeding it isn't good enough. (a lot like resisting or being immune to Electric-type moves from Thundurus-T isn't nearly good enough)

Modest Mega Amph's speed does indeed let it down against anything that is faster than Tornadus-T, such as Noivern, Crobat, (Mega) Aerodactyl , Mega Manectric, and Choice Scarfers (slashed Pokemon cannot do shit back). but its better longevity (due to no Life Orb or SR weakness) and STABs allows it to clean up teams effectively, and of course it has the bulk to set up in the first place. Meanwhile, Thundy-T already hits a good speed tier, meaning the best course of action to take advantage of its speed is to amp up its power by a ridiculous amount, breaking apart the numerous Pokemon it outspeeds. I mean, I could do Agility Thundy-T and...um...Charge Beam Mega Ampharos (see this is the biggest reason I don't try to have my Mega Amph be the 'hard hitter': no good boosting move), but it's kind of easy to see their immediate flaws. It's easy to see why I chose my speedy Electric-type to be the hard hitter, and have my tank Electric-type patch up its Speed so it can continously hammer opponents with its powerful attacks.

 

[Kingpoleon]

Did you even bother to read my post? Literally the first line is:
What you seem to assume is that because Magnezone doesn't beat a mon 1v1 if you are both in at the same time e.g. coming in on a double down, that it is getting countered.
I then went on to say that even the most solid special walls (Umbreon, Chansey while it was still around and Porygon2) may be able to counter Magnezone in turns of it getting a kill, but what they can't account for is the Volt Switch, one simple move that completely turns them from being in a 'favourable' position to being in the same predicament that Magnezone had caused the mon before.

I'll use the Heatran/Genesect example again cause it's such a good example. Heatran without a shadow of a doubt counters the standard, repeat, STANDARD Genesect moveset of Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Iron Head whatever, but what, in my opinion, it doesn't counter is the fact that Genesect can U-turn. All of a sudden your 'reliable counter' is trapped by say a Dugtrio and with that, your 'reliable counter' to Genesect now just became a sitting duck to Dugtrio. This same thing can be applied to Magnezone, albeit the fact that the mon coming in may not have a trapping ability, the logic still applies that it is not only what Magnezone could do in terms of killing but also what it was capable of in turning an unfavourable match up into a favourable one while still dealing a solid 25-30% to these dedicated special walls.

Switch-in is the key point to why Magnezone was so good, you say those things countered Magnezone and sure, a Magnezone locked into Thunderbolt or Flash Cannon or whatever is countered by those mons but I don't think that if a mon can gain momentum, still do decent damage and again force a losing situation for an opponent, then that switch-in is classified as a counter.

I hope next time, you actually read my entire post before commenting because I did explain it in a way that said that there are good /switch ins/ to Magnezone but not necessarily good counters to Volt Switch. Thanks.

Edit: EonX- The same logic applies to your Ampharos argument, I think Mega-Amp is a super cool mon and everything and yes it does resist electric 4x and steel 2x so Magnezone locking itself into Thunderbolt/Flash Cannon is complete bait for Mega-Amp but idk, I just can't justify a mon being a counter if by the end of the turn, the match up for the opponent is not favourable regardless of how good the special wall/counter may be.

By this logic, everything with Volt Switch/U-Turn is broken. Prediction is a key thing before you say "lol, come in after the opponent kills something on your team/lead with it." What if they kill something with MegaAmpharos, or lead with it? I thought we were trying to make it to where players with skills win most of the time, not make everybody in the top 60%. I have no idea if you even really play this metagame; all I ever see you do is watch other people.

After some test runs, I can conclude that dual Electrics is the new 'dual Dragons', albeit less extreme but not any less powerful.

These two when paired together have the potential to tear all of UU a new asshole. Nasty Plot Thundurus-T uses its diverse wallbreaking movepool to break open many walls, while Agility Mega Ampharos sweeps the opponent. The best part is that they can easily switch roles, with Mega Amph using its insane Special Attack to punch holes in the opponent, while Thundy-T uses its above average Speed to clean up the scraps. Oh, and both Pokemon give zero shits about Tornadus-T, so if you're sick of that bird this is a nice way to get revenge.

When I say Thundurus-T's movepool is diverse, it's not so much that it has perfect all-round neutral coverage, but that it can easily hit almost any problem Pokemon it encounters with the right move. Yeah, Hidden Power Ice is 'okay' for neutral coverage, and is probably the best move to pair with TBolt on Double Dance, but Nasty Plot + 3 attacks Thundy-T can use:
- Grass Knot to destroy Swampert and Hippowdon
- Sludge Wave to hit Celebi, Shaymin, Florges, and Chesnaught
- Psychic to strike Amoonguss, Roserade, the Nidos, and Chesnaught (again)
- Focus Blast to break Umbreon, Porygon2, and Kyurem
....paving the way for Mega Amph to sweep, although it is already very difficult responding to Thundy-T itself before you can deduce its entire moveset without irreparably crippling your team.

The main reason I listed Focus Blast last as one of Thundy-T's coverage moves is because Ampharos already gets it, so Thundy-T might as well focus on opponents Mega Amph cannot already take on. Mega Amph has essentially perfect neutral coverage between its STABs and Focus Blast, and while its Speed is bad, Modest Mega Ampharos outspeeds Timid Tornadus-T, though it falls short on Noivern. Modest Mega Amph also speedties with 0 Spe Nidoqueen, so it can still outrun a good majority of walls if need be. Agility is a nice way to temporarily use its Dragon STAB without subjecting it to its additional weaknesses. You can set up on a faster Dragon / Ice move, Agility, then Mega Evolve to pummel them with STAB Dragon Pulse.

There aren't a lot of Pokemon that can stop these two (Rotom-H may stop Thundy-T but does jack to Mega Amph), so expect this to be the core to beat.

I tried this core out, and all I ever see people do is revenge MAmpharos with something with EQ. This would be a lot better if people would switch in walls to Thund-T; also, maybe a mixed Thund-T with Knock Off/Superpower/Volt Switch/Grass Knot would work best. It is a surprisingly good set I tried out early on in XY with Thund. Charge Beam MAmpharos does sound good, since everyone tries to wall it. Unless they run a HP Ground Specs Florges, it would work amazingly. Charge Beam/Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Dragon Pulse would eat the walls and anything else that tried to switch in on MAmpharos. Remember, these are just my 2c.

 

[Schpoonman]

Uh. Why would they run HP Ground on Florges? STAB Moonblast is already more powerful than 2x SE Hidden Power, so Moonblast being SE against Dragon is obviously far superior. I guess the question here is how do you get past Florges, then. Nasty Plot LO Thundurus?

 

[Calloflochie]

By this logic, everything with Volt Switch/U-Turn is broken. Prediction is a key thing before you say "lol, come in after the opponent kills something on your team/lead with it." What if they kill something with MegaAmpharos, or lead with it? I thought we were trying to make it to where players with skills win most of the time, not make everybody in the top 60%. I have no idea if you even really play this metagame; all I ever see you do is watch other people.

I never said anything with Volt Switch or U-Turn was broken, yet again, did you even read what I wrote or just make assumptions like usual? All I said was I don't think you can specifically counter a mon that is able to put you at an advantageous position at the end of the turn regardless of how good the counter is that you send in. And if they kill something with Mega-Ampharos then don't bring in Magnezone :O :O, like honestly, what sort of an argument is that? You try to put words in my mouth and come up with stupid scenarios that anyone with any logic could see that if something kills your mon, you bring in another to revenge it/force it out, not bring in a pokemon that it's standard set is countered by. I'm really questioning if YOU actually know how to play pokemon cause from the logic you base your arguments on you clearly can't work out the preface of volturn and how it's meant to be played.

Also alts exist on PS. /rank fuck u chris, /rank Gooklord ZvZ, /rank sfdgd and you can ask Tyler (DMT) cause a lot of the successful teams he has used is ones made by me. So I think I know more than enough about the metagame and you're just using that as a scapegoat remark because you can't really come up with a good argument:] i'm done talking to you kbai.

Also Lord of Bays Hp ground on Florges was like solely for Magnezone since 99% of the time, it can get a free switch in to the standard defensive Florges set, so yeah :]

 

[Punchshroom]

I tried this core out, and all I ever see people do is revenge MAmpharos with something with EQ. This would be a lot better if people would switch in walls to Thund-T; also, maybe a mixed Thund-T with Knock Off/Superpower/Volt Switch/Grass Knot would work best. It is a surprisingly good set I tried out early on in XY with Thund. Charge Beam MAmpharos does sound good, since everyone tries to wall it. Unless they run a HP Ground Specs Florges, it would work amazingly. Charge Beam/Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Dragon Pulse would eat the walls and anything else that tried to switch in on MAmpharos. Remember, these are just my 2c.

Hmmm? With Agility, nothing short of a Scarfed Pokemon should be able to revenge Mega Ampharos with Earthquake / Earth Power without taking a powerful hit first.

Also, people don't switch in walls on Thundy-T? If Thundy-T is threatening one of their Pokemon at the moment, they usually won't try to switch in an offensive Pokemon on it, instead offensive Pokemon are used to revenge kill. People scramble for bulky walls as responses to Thundy-T, but Thundy-T has the potential to hit / cripple any of them.

Charge Beam Mega Ampharos still faces issues with the Ground-types Agility Mega Ampharos has problems with, and now it faces the additional issue of being outsped by many Pokemon (Modest Mega Amph speedties with 0 Spe Nidoqueen, everything faster like Mega Blastoise outspeeds). Not to mention that not only is Charge Beam somewhat unreliable at boosting (70% chance to boost = 30% chance to not boost = 30% chance of Scald burn = happens all the freaking time apparently), but it doesn't work on Ground-types, meaning Charge Beam Mega Amph isn't that much better at plowing through walls than Agility Mega Amph.

Why are you worrying about HP Ground Florges when it can just Moonblast you?

 

[Schpoonman]

I don't know why you would bring up HP Ground Florges in a discussion about a Thundurus-T/Mega Ampharos core.

 

[Punchshroom]

Ignoring HP Ground, Florges is one of the better stops to this core due to its annoying bulk and longevity, and easily the #1 reason I run Sludge Wave on Thundurus-T. Did I mention Thundy-T makes for an excellent lure as well? It can cover certain problematic threats with that kind of movepool, and while it can't cover everything for Mega Amph, the threats Thundurus-T cannot get past can be handled by teammates anyway. While it looks like bulky Grounds are the bigger threats to this core, Swampert's lack of reliable recovery means it can succumb to Mega Ampharos after a Thundy-T beatdown; Hippowdon usually can't do much back outside of Ice Fang and phazing, often meaning it won't get a chance to heal anyway; and Zygarde / Flygon do not bother Ampharos after an Agility, unless Flygon is Scarfed (and opponents do tend to send their Scarfed mon against Thundy-T first). Quagsire is the only real pain.

I'm not saying this core doesn't need support, but it doesn't really doesn't require a lot of it. I have Pursuit Honchkrow and Pursuit Metagross to f**k over Scarf Flygon no matter which STAB it goes for (the threat of Metagross means they'll usually try to Earthquake Mega Amph instead of Outraging it), and both Pokemon happen to be really powerful physical attackers. To top it off, Metagross even has Grass Knot to lure unsuspecting Ground-types to their demise. Depending on your dual-Electric core's moves, the preferred teammates may differ, but it's not hard to choose Pokemon & base your team around supporting these two.