Murkrow, Meditite, and Swagger have been banned

[Kappaten]

This is the first time I have actually defended something that made it to the suspect stage, so I'll do my best to summarize why I feel that Meditite is not banworthy and should stay in Little Cup, at least for right now:


1. Sub-par Speed

The thing that allows many strong attackers the potential to really do well in the metagame is reaching a decent Speed tier. Meditite's Speed is actually considered so insignificant that none of its sets even run its maximum Speed stat of 16, so I know for a fact that players already acknowledge this problem. This leaves Meditite open to be hit hard by numerous checks and counters and it's not the best at taking random neutral hits either. The only way to patch up its disappointing Speed is to give it a Choice Scarf and lock into something that is bound to hit an immunity sometime. I wouldn't really call that an advantage in most cases, but I guess it depends on what the player considers important. Nonetheless, Meditite's Speed is a significant flaw that helps balance it.


2. Severe 4MSS (4-Moveslot Syndrome)

I would be much more inclined to label Meditite broken if it could actually carry more than four moves. The simple fact that it is limited to four moves in its moveset REALLY holds it back. It absolutely needs Baton Pass or Wynaut beats it 100% of the time; it absolutely needs Fire Punch to get around Honedge without giving a free turn. Meditite wants to run Thunder Punch and Poison Jab on the same set SO BADLY but it can't. If it doesn't run a Fighting-type attack, it gets trampled by Scraggy. If it doesn't run a Psychic-type attack, it gets bullied by bulky Poison-types. If it doesn't run Thunder Punch, Slowpoke has a field day with it, and if it doesn't run Poison Jab, Exeggcute and Spritzee laugh at it in most cases. The Little Cup community needs to come to the realization of just how limited Meditite really is by 4MSS. I honestly don't see how it even gained enough votes to be suspected when I consider how hurtful this drawback actually is to Meditite's performance.


3. Meditite Promotes Variety in Little Cup

There, I said it. With the introduction of the new and improved Knock Off, tons of Pokemon in Little Cup plummeted in viability, and the main group of Pokemon this affected was Psychic-types. They're good against Fighting-types, right? Well, just about all of them carry Knock Off now. The fact that Meditite's STABs are both resisted by Psychic-types is the keystone that keeps Psychic-types in the picture that is XY Little Cup. Meditite is a very strong Pokemon that has advantages against a lot of other Pokemon, and I acknowledge that, but it does not limit strategy and options the way Tangela did, or the way Sneasel did. If anything, Meditite actually makes a lot of Pokemon viable, whereas Murkrow makes a lot of Pokemon unusable. It's one thing to limit the teambuilding of a ton of Pokemon, and it's another thing to actually promote healthiness in the tier, and that's exactly what Meditite does. Wynaut and Honedge would be considered for teamslots a lot less if Meditite's existence didn't make them important, and Exeggcute wouldn't even be thought about. Getting rid of Meditite would cause an entire group of Pokemon to lose their niche and honestly their whole reason for seeing usage in the current metagame, which would further restrict the variety of this tier and that is not something I want to have happen, not when this Pokemon isn't even overwhelming to the tier; its list of checks and counters is extensive enough to keep it from getting out of hand, I believe.

I can't wait to hear the pro-ban arguments for Meditite. That's all I have to say about that.

Now that I have finally read the whole thing, I'll take time to tell you why these arguments are flawed despite the thoroughness of your post.

1. Meditite's main selling point is, like Murkrow, as a wallbreaker. What walls can afford to run 16 speed or more? It is a flaw that Meditite's speed has a rather average max, but that just means that he doesn't even have to run his max speed to be effective. Adamant LO can do Jolly LO better, and there aren't pokemon who can switch in reliably without predicting an immunity to a move. And that really only works once against any decent player. Also, the point of Choice Scarf is not to spam in the middle of the game when there are still fighting and psychic immunities running around. Would you really use ScarfMoxie Scraggy, for example, before eliminating or severely weakening opposing fighting types? There's Trick, yes, but then you are poorly EVed for the item you received, and unless someone risked their Spritzee, all they really lost was their shitty Meditite "counter".

2. It is not 4MSS if Tite isn't REQUIRED to run particular moves to be effective. Don't like Slowpoke? run Thunderpunch. Hate Wynaut? run Baton Pass. Team doesn't really like Honedge? run Fire Punch. Because of the switches that Meditite causes simply by existing, you can just run a bunch of coverage moves to make the opposing team's "counters" insignificant. Not to mention most of the pokemon you listed do not perform well outside of being a good Meditite switch in. As mentioned in other posts: you have to carry your fighting-type checks and then your Meditite checks.

3. "Forcing people to use otherwise terrible pokemon" is not the same thing as promoting variety. Unlike Tangela, who was just an extreme grass-type, Meditite is part of the ONLY fighting type in LC who does not rely on Knock Off for coverage. You list Wynaut, Honedge, and Exeggcute as examples of pokemon made more viable by Meditite's existence. Is this not the definition of overcentralizing? Using otherwise shitty pokemon because one mon is so threatening? You can't even reliably use these so-called "counters" because Meditite users can just switch up the coverage based on what kinds of checks they are running into or expect. "Promoting variety" seems like a poor point to bring up, because you cannot promote variety with the existence of one pokemon.

 

[zeriloa]

I'll post here, I guess, though i don't really have anything new.

Krow
Everything i wanted to say has been said about krow. It's too strong, too fast, too versatile, and you don't need a wall of calcs to prove that. Anyone who's played LC knows how powerful LO Krow is and how hard Sub variants are to kill (subthief can die). It needs to go. (not even going into swagger because that's just a waste of a krow)

Meditite
Tite's much tougher to figure out. It's hard to counter without obscure pokemon (which it can get past if it wants to as pointed out by Kappaten). But its relatively easy to check, so you're not really forced to run something like Elgyem, unlike Krow where you basically have to run RestTalk Chou on every team to avoid getting stomped. Its definitely not as mindless to use as Krow, either, however in the hands of a good player something's probably going to die if you don't have one of those obscure counters. I'm on the fence, really, but i'm leaning towards keeping it for now. (all these points have probably been said but whatever. just my thoughts )

 

[Brambane]

2. Severe 4MSS (4-Moveslot Syndrome)

I would be much more inclined to label Meditite broken if it could actually carry more than four moves. The simple fact that it is limited to four moves in its moveset REALLY holds it back. It absolutely needs Baton Pass or Wynaut beats it 100% of the time; it absolutely needs Fire Punch to get around Honedge without giving a free turn. Meditite wants to run Thunder Punch and Poison Jab on the same set SO BADLY but it can't. If it doesn't run a Fighting-type attack, it gets trampled by Scraggy. If it doesn't run a Psychic-type attack, it gets bullied by bulky Poison-types. If it doesn't run Thunder Punch, Slowpoke has a field day with it, and if it doesn't run Poison Jab, Exeggcute and Spritzee laugh at it in most cases. The Little Cup community needs to come to the realization of just how limited Meditite really is by 4MSS. I honestly don't see how it even gained enough votes to be suspected when I consider how hurtful this drawback actually is to Meditite's performance.

So wait, how am I supposed to know what Meditite is running?

Meditite can beat Slowpoke if it has Thunder Punch, but not if it has Poison Jab

Meditite can beat Spritzee if it has Poison Jab, but not if it has Thunder Punch

Does that mean I have to run both? Wasn't this why Garchomp was banned in DP, or am I missing something?

 

[Goddess Briyella]

1. Meditite's main selling point is, like Murkrow, as a wallbreaker. What walls can afford to run 16 speed or more? It is a flaw that Meditite's speed has a rather average max, but that just means that he doesn't even have to run his max speed to be effective. Adamant LO can do Jolly LO better, and there aren't pokemon who can switch in reliably without predicting an immunity to a move. And that really only works once against any decent player. Also, the point of Choice Scarf is not to spam in the middle of the game when there are still fighting and psychic immunities running around. Would you really use ScarfMoxie Scraggy, for example, before eliminating or severely weakening opposing fighting types? There's Trick, yes, but then you are poorly EVed for the item you received, and unless someone risked their Spritzee, all they really lost was their shitty Meditite "counter".

2. It is not 4MSS if Tite isn't REQUIRED to run particular moves to be effective. Don't like Slowpoke? run Thunderpunch. Hate Wynaut? run Baton Pass. Team doesn't really like Honedge? run Fire Punch. Because of the switches that Meditite causes simply by existing, you can just run a bunch of coverage moves to make the opposing team's "counters" insignificant. Not to mention most of the pokemon you listed do not perform well outside of being a good Meditite switch in. As mentioned in other posts: you have to carry your fighting-type checks and then your Meditite checks.

Murkrow does not have counters; Meditite does.

The fact that Meditite's greatest strength is wallbreaking does not disprove the fact that it is slower than a ton of things that can outspeed and ravage it, especially if it's not running Eviolite. There are also plenty of things that can switch into standard Meditite and force it to switch out (giving a free turn), depending on which set it's running, as I have already explained.


Can Slowpoke switch into standard Meditite without Thunder Punch and force it out next turn?

Yes. The switch-in is now paralyzed by Thunder Wave.

Can Exeggcute or Spritzee switch into standard Meditite without Poison Jab and force it out next turn?

Yes. The switch-in is now asleep due to Sleep Powder or is facing an over-half health Spritzee with a Wish coming to it or a teammate next turn.

Can Wynaut switch into standard Meditite without Baton Pass and kill it 100% of the time?

Yes. Meditite will die.

Can standard Meditite run Thunder Punch, Poison Jab, and Baton Pass on one set? If it does, it can get around all of these Pokemon, and that leaves one move left. It really wants Fake Out for getting chip damage and picking off weakened foes, particularly faster ones. Without Fighting STAB, it is easily defeated by Scraggy and has no recovery. Without Psychic STAB, it is beaten by bulky Poison-types. It only gets four moves, so no matter what it runs, something is going to make a punk out of it. It's true that Meditite can run whatever it has to in order to deal with what it finds problematic, but it finds a LOT of things problematic, and it cannot cover them all. If it does not have the exact move it needs when faced with a certain Pokemon, it is countered and must flee and give the foe a free turn (except in the case of Wynaut).

It should go without saying that Pawniard would hate to switch into Slowpoke's Thunder Wave, Exeggcute's Sleep Powder, Elgyem's Thunder Wave or Analytic HP Fighting, or Drowzee's Thunder Wave or Drain Punch as Meditite switches out.

As mentioned in other posts: you have to carry your fighting-type checks and then your Meditite checks.

Oh, you mean this?

Elgyem @ Eviolite
Ability: Analytic
Level: 5
EVs: 240 Def / 236 HP
Relaxed Nature
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Recover
- Thunder Wave

0 SpA Analytic Elgyem Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 9-12 (47.3 - 63.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Analytic Elgyem Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Analytic Elgyem Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 20-28 (95.2 - 133.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

-----

196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Poison Jab vs. 236 HP / 240+ Def Eviolite Elgyem: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 10% chance to 3HKO

236+ Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 240+ Def Eviolite Elgyem: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 240+ Def Eviolite Elgyem: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Keep in mind as well that Elgyem gets to hit something for free as Meditite switches out, and that the Analytic boost is applied in this scenario.

3. "Forcing people to use otherwise terrible pokemon" is not the same thing as promoting variety. Unlike Tangela, who was just an extreme grass-type, Meditite is part of the ONLY fighting type in LC who does not rely on Knock Off for coverage. You list Wynaut, Honedge, and Exeggcute as examples of pokemon made more viable by Meditite's existence. Is this not the definition of overcentralizing? Using otherwise shitty pokemon because one mon is so threatening? You can't even reliably use these so-called "counters" because Meditite users can just switch up the coverage based on what kinds of checks they are running into or expect. "Promoting variety" seems like a poor point to bring up, because you cannot promote variety with the existence of one pokemon.

This would be more of an overcentralizing problem if there weren't so many Pokemon that are made more viable because of Meditite's existence. It was a problem with Tangela because Goomy was the only thing that could really mess with it. Meditite, however, has a long list of checks and counters that can flourish to keep Meditite at bay and have other roles as well, as I've also mentioned previously. Every single Pokemon I mentioned above as a counter has a means of taking advantage of Meditite's presence besides just walling its moves. They have uses and Meditite's existence helps them achieve those uses. I don't think a reply as simple as "yea but those mons suck" is insightful enough to disprove that. If you haven't used something before, try it before bashing it mindlessly; have some objective reasoning behind attacking it. I remember when everyone bashed my Specs Taillow set to hell and back and made fun of me for pushing it, but those same people told me later how legit it was after actually trying it, and that's just one example.

I'd also like to respond to Briyella a bit here, but only to her three summary points because I don't want to spend a week making a response.

I was acutally surprised when you said that none of its non-Scarf sets run max Speed. "What about Life Orb Meditite?" I said, but apparently you don't have Speed on that set. Personally, I find that extremely wrong, as even though there is basically nothing between 12 and 16 Speed, I still think it's better to run that in case you run into something like 5th gen 14 Speed Mienfoo, and at least a chance to Speed tie with Pawniard.

These sets are not my own, but are copied from what has been defined as XY standard by Corkscrew's Meditite analysis that is QC 3/3, and I had no say in the making of its sets. If you disagree with what is to be considered standard for Meditite's sets, you now know who to talk to about that.

Naturally, a Pokemon will want enough moves to cover every single niche threat that walls it, but I think Meditite can do without. The fact that you mention Baton Pass and Fire Punch as "absolutely needed" for exactly one Pokemon each makes me think you are digging a little too deep here. It needs these moves to be a "perfect" Pokemon, not a broken one. Neither Wynaut nor Honedge are exceptionally common, and the notion that those moves are required for Meditite to function properly is silly to me. This narrows it down to Fake Out, Bullet Punch, Fighting move, Psychic move, Thunder Punch, and Poison Jab to choose from. Poison Jab is mostly a bad choice, as that is only used for Spritzee and the very niche Exeggcute, so I'd take that one off too. That means you are now leaving off just one move, usually between Fake Out and Thunder Punch. Using uncommon niche Pokemon as justification for Meditite's "severe" 4MSS just doesn't make sense to me, since Meditite doesn't have to cover everything to be broken.

Considering that Meditite is incredibly disadvantaged against Honedge both offensively and defensively and that Wynaut traps and beats it 100% of the time, I'd say these are somewhat important things for Meditite to be able to deal with, and it will lose to them if it runs into them and is not prepared. I use Wynaut, as does blarajan, and as does Wobbyble. It's not rare.

I think you've got it backwards here. The usage of generally bad or outclassed Pokemon solely for the purpose of countering Meditite just makes it more broken, in my opinion. Exeggcute is weak to U-turn, Knock Off, Brave Bird, Shadow Ball, and Fire-type moves, all of which are very common in Little Cup. It is bad, but it just so happens to counter Meditite, making it "viable", in the same way that Tangela made Goomy "viable".

You are not considering Exeggcute's other positives here. Exeggcute incapacitates switch-ins with Sleep Powder and also has the option of making switch-ins miserable with Leech Seed. Exeggcute reliably beats not only Meditite, but also important Pokemon in the metagame like Foongus, Tirtouga, Timburr, and Drilbur (if it lacks X-Scissor). Am I the only one who acknowledges this? Its strengths mainly lie in what it can do to cripple switch-ins after forcing switches, but it is far from "shitty". The fact that it handily beats Little Cup's premier Grass-type and Little Cup's most dangerous Shell Smash user should surely give it more merit than is being shown to it. The fact that it walls Meditite without Poison Jab / Fire Punch gives it an important purpose while it does the other things as well.

So wait, how am I supposed to know what Meditite is running?

Meditite can beat Slowpoke if it has Thunder Punch, but not if it has Poison Jab

Meditite can beat Spritzee if it has Poison Jab, but not if it has Thunder Punch

Does that mean I have to run both? Wasn't this why Garchomp was banned in DP, or am I missing something?

All this means is that Meditite has limitations as far as what it can beat, because a lot of counters exist for the different moves it decides not to run. It can only beat what its chosen moveset allows it to. I don't see any reason to draw that out again.



Also, since a lot of people keep saying that Fighting-types with Knock Off and Meditite cannot be dealt with by using the same Pokemon, I'd like to reiterate that +Defense-natured Elgyem beats them both whether it loses its item in the process or not. Wynaut beats both of these as well, with the exception of Mienfoo because of U-turn (though it would preferably like to kill Meditite first so that its item will be intact before it begins doing its job). Wish Drowzee also beats both Meditite and Fighting-types with Knock Off if played correctly. It needs to be remembered that Knock Off from a Fighting-type hurts a lot less against a Psychic-type than a STAB Psychic-type move against a Fighting-type. That's not to say that Psychic-types can just switch into Knock Off willy-nilly, but you get the idea.

It also keeps being mentioned that Pawniard is a potent teammate for Meditite that threatens the Psychic-types that wall Psychic- and Fighting-type attacks, and that this fact supposedly makes these counters a lot less significant since they're "all weak to Knock Off". While this is true, Pawniard has to worry about being hit with Thunder Wave, or worse, a Fighting-type move, on the switch-in, and the Psychic-types acknowledge this threat and will be packing Fighting-type moves for this very reason.

But since teammates for Meditite that allow it to beat its counters keep coming up, let's pair our Psychic-type with a teammate of its own and see how this plays out:

Meditite's counters are generally Pokemon that are Psychic-type and are thus weak to Knock Off, making them inherently vulnerable to common users of this move, including Mienfoo and Pawniard.

Elgyem walls and defeats Meditite one on one, but is threatened greatly by Pawniard. Paired with Trubbish, however, it has a teammate that soaks up Knock Off without losing its item and can continuously restore its health by Recycling its Berry Juice. In exchange, Trubbish's weakness to Meditite's Psychic-type STAB is sponged by Elgyem. Mienfoo is completely walled by Trubbish, Pawniard will eventually be hit by either Drain Punch or HP Fighting, and Meditite will lose to Elgyem.

Let's try to look at the bigger picture if we're actually going to include other Pokemon as teammates to support the drawbacks of the suspect in question, but I don't want this to get to the point where we're comparing whole teams. I didn't even know this was something we do in suspect threads but I'm playing with the hand I was dealt, so there.

I hope this clears up some uncertainties.

 

[Artemisa]

So unless you have thunder punch slowpoke can wall same with poison jab and egg. That is true, but consider this: A lot of people play LC and a good amount use Meditite, but not all of the users have the same moveset on the evio bulky attacker for example. You can win some matches with your meditite checks/counters, but you can lose some because Meditite can have the right moves the exploit your answers to Tite. You will never be able to 100% switch in and take down Meditite since we can all use different variants of the same set. In situations like this you would have to resort to revenge killing or mind games, which the former requires you foddering something to switch it in because your revenge killer risk being ko'd switching in to meditite or the ladder is a 50/50.

This just shows the flexibility of one set, Meditite can do the same thing with 2 other sets (Choice Scarf or LO).

 

[Brambane]

All this means is that Meditite has limitations as far as what it can beat, because a lot of counters exist for the different moves it decides not to run. It can only beat what its chosen moveset allows it to. I don't see any reason to draw that out.

You avoided my questions entirely. I asked if I have to run two Pokemon to counter Meditite, and if doing so makes Meditite broken.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

You avoided my questions entirely. I asked if I have to run two Pokemon to counter Meditite, and if doing so makes Meditite broken.

Running two Pokemon to counter Meditite is not necessary. Its disappointing Speed and long of list of checks and counters generally lets it find itself checked by things that would be highly viable even without Meditite's existence, including Slowpoke, Spritzee, Misdreavus, and Fletchling. This fact alone has been repeated several times throughout this thread and it answers your question for you.

This does not break Meditite, this limits it.

 

[chimp]

You avoided my questions entirely. I asked if I have to run two Pokemon to counter Meditite, and if doing so makes Meditite broken.

Having to run two pokemon to check one is a reason to classify something as broken, but regardless of what coverage move Meditite chooses, there are still pokemon who can check/revenge kill it. Misdreavus, Fletchling, Krow, Scarf Pawn...
Its a lot like swirlix; but less so since Swirlix usually had massive boosts so revenging was impossible.

Even if you pack the wrong "counter" for meditite, there is still a decently large list of pokemon capable of coming back at it. Meditite usually has no boosts so bulkier pokemon aren't completely OHKO'd every time. Also, as Bri mentioned, these pokemon are still good and should be used either way.

EDIT: ninja'd by GB, sorry for responding twice

 

[Heysup]

You avoided my questions entirely. I asked if I have to run two Pokemon to counter Meditite, and if doing so makes Meditite broken.

Running two Pokemon to counter Meditite is not necessary. Its disappointing Speed and long of list of checks and counters generally lets it find itself checked by things that would be highly viable even without Meditite's existence, including Slowpoke, Spritzee, Misdreavus, and Fletchling. This fact alone has been repeated several times throughout this thread and it answers your question for you.

The line that has to drawn here is that we're either looking at the Gligar syndrome or a simple 4MSS. For example, I would say Abra (.......for example) has 4MSS because its moves actually limit it where as something like Gligar has so many viable options that it's hard to prepare for (ie you send Slowpoke in to counter Gligar and then it BPs). I think, at least as far as I can tell Goddess Briyella, Dracoyoshi8 is pointing out that Meditite is the second point (ie you switch in Spritzee and get 2HKOed by Poison Jab) rather than the first which your post actually does not address as far as i can tell.

His point is also about counters, not checks. Checks are a completely different argument.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

The line that has to drawn here is that we're either looking at the Gligar syndrome or a simple 4MSS. For example, I would say Abra (for example) has 4MSS because its moves actually limit it where as something like Gligar has so many viable options that it's hard to prepare for (ie you send Slowpoke in to counter Gligar and then it BPs). I think, at least as far as I can tell Goddess Briyella, Dracoyoshi8 is pointing out that Meditite is the second point rather than the first which your post actually does not address as far as i can tell.

His point is also about counters, not checks. Checks are a completely different argument.

It's not that I'm missing the point, I simply view it from a different perspective, so I address it differently. I see Meditite's 4MSS as more of a limitation for Meditite than a problem for its counters or would-be counters. Meditite's moveset defines what all is able to counter it, and something will sooner or later since it only has 4 moves and several potential counters based on what moves it lacks. I apologize if I have been unclear.

 

[kingmidas]

It's not that I'm missing the point, I simply view it from a different perspective, so I address it differently. I see Meditite's 4MSS as more of a limitation for Meditite than a problem for its counters or would-be counters. Meditite's moveset defines what all is able to counter it, and something will sooner or later since it only has 4 moves and several potential counters based on what moves it lacks. I apologize if I have been unclear.

You're forgetting how its 28 attack allows it to run a drain punch + 3 coverage move set with LO that basically leaves a team with 1 common answer is missy. Meditite has 4MSS to an extent of where it wants moves but it doesn't necessarily warrant them to be much more successful. Bullet punch and fake out sorta suck, and hjk can just run through teams without ghosts or really bulky resists. It comes down to what you want tite to do, more so then what it needs to do. Trickscarf is also the biggest bitch to its checks and counters ever imo.
Edit; Thanks Glass for reminding me of the glory of elgyem. (most legit thing ever)

 

[GlassGlaceon]

Bri, for the sake of your argument could you pair elgyem or another mon with more mons than JUST trubbish/grimer so not every team has to run elgyem+sludge. I love elgyem and trashface as much as the next guy, but meh. (heck As far as I know I was the guy who first tried selling elgyem to y'all as a tite counter, as far as i know but idk midas could be workin on IRC ;)) But yeah bri, can you show us more ways to counter tite than just elgyem+trubbish? I don't want to have to run that on all my teams :@ just to counter one thing, henceforth limiting the creativity I can throw into LC :@ I'm not saying you can't, but I still have yet to find a lot of reliable pairs that counter tite+pawn well

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Bri, for the sake of your argument could you pair elgyem or another mon with more mons than JUST trubbish/grimer so not every team has to run elgyem+sludge. I love elgyem and trashface as much as the next guy, but meh. (heck As far as I know I was the guy who first tried selling elgyem to y'all as a tite counter, as far as i know but idk midas could be workin on IRC ;)) But yeah bri, can you show us more ways to counter tite than just elgyem+trubbish? I don't want to have to run that on all my teams :@ just to counter one thing, henceforth limiting the creativity I can throw into LC :@ I'm not saying you can't, but I still have yet to find a lot of reliable pairs that counter tite+pawn well

I only included a teammate because of the arguments in the thread that included Knock Off users as teammates for Meditite. I am against doing that but I felt the need to make that point anyway since a few users took that angle.

We are suspecting Meditite, not Meditite and its buddies that cover the drawbacks it certainly has.

 

[Heysup]

There is a difference between covering drawbacks and suggesting the counters/checks are not valid counterarguments due to being nonthreatening or how easily the drawbacks are covered, both of the latter points being very relevant.

 

[Kappaten]

Murkrow does not have counters; Meditite does.

Meditite sets have counters. You can not have a pokemon that 100% reliably switches into any Meditite set. You are forced to run different counters for different sets that are all equally viable.

For example:
196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Elgyem: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

So the Elgyem user has a few options here. It can try and recover, hoping for a HJK miss, but also giving the Meditite user a free switch; it can risk attacking, and getting 2HKO; or it can switch itself, into whatever partner you gave Elgyem for handling Meditite. These all have a high chance in resulting in a ridiculous momentum loss for the team facing Meditite.

I'd rather not get into the teambuilding arguments, because it's pretty damn easy for both sides to build around Meditite either Offensively or Defensively, and doing so is not going to answer any questions about whether or not Meditite is broken; it does, however, sound very familiar to the situation we had with Gligar, albeit less extreme. I admit saying that you have to carry separate checks for Meditite and other Fighting-types was a weak argument, because that can be said about almost anything.

This would be more of an overcentralizing problem if there weren't so many Pokemon that are made more viable because of Meditite's existence. It was a problem with Tangela because Goomy was the only thing that could really mess with it. Meditite, however, has a long list of checks and counters that can flourish to keep Meditite at bay and have other roles as well, as I've also mentioned previously. Every single Pokemon I mentioned above as a counter has a means of taking advantage of Meditite's presence besides just walling its moves. They have uses and Meditite's existence helps them achieve those uses. I don't think a reply as simple as "yea but those mons suck" is insightful enough to disprove that. If you haven't used something before, try it before bashing it mindlessly; have some objective reasoning behind attacking it. I remember when everyone bashed my Specs Taillow set to hell and back and made fun of me for pushing it, but those same people told me later how legit it was after actually trying it, and that's just one example.

Yeah I think I missed clearly stating my point; my point is not that these pokemon only counter Meditite and are forced to switch out afterwards. My point is that if not for the existence of a single pokemon, these pokemon would have significantly less viability because they would lose their ability to force a switch vs an extremely potent threat. I don't think this is a healthy thing for the metagame.

 

[youngjake93]

Meditite too slow, Murkrow too fast. Keep Meditite, ban Murkrow.
Anyway, LO Murkrow KOs Chinchou with Brave Bird+Dark Pulse after rocks and I've beaten countless Archen with the sub t-wave set and left the encounter with a sub. There really is no easy way to beating it lol.
Meditite can be dealt with pretty easily by just playing in a way that you don't let it come in for free. Double switching to checks or keeping Meditite-bait Pokemon off the field generally is enough to drastically limit Meditite's potential. Murkrow and Missy are kind of the biggest reason this technique works so well in limiting Meditite. With Murkrow heading out the door, it might push Meditite over the edge, but that was said when Swirlix and Gligar left and it still isn't broken imo. I think Meditite needs to be tried in a meta w/o Krow first.

Both of these Pokemon would be extremely less threatening if Sturdy Juice left though... Dwebble hazard stack is what really makes these two look broken on a lot of teams.

 

[TUO]

I think a lot of people agree that Murkrow deserves a ban, and most people that have been arguing against it have been somewhat in a losing battle. Right now, Meditite is the main Pokemon that is being discussed, whether it is broken or not.

First of all Meditite and Murkrow were both suspects in one suspect test in Gen V in this thread. Just a quick side comment as it is quite funny that these two pokes got suspected in a similar time as Gen V.

Anyway, on to Meditite. Meditite is a really weird case because it does have some broken aspects to it, but definitely has issues that stop it from being completely broken. Let's look at Meditite's Strengths and Weaknesses.

Meditite:
+ Freakin Powerful
+ 8-10 moves it can viably run (people see that as a problem, but it definitely can be a good thing)
+ Good Defensive typing for this meta (bar Flying weakness)
+ Access to Priority if needed
+ There are times it's pretty bulky for its power.

- 4MSS (the problem of having 8-10 viable moves)
- Speed that while not bad, low enough for you to play around
- A couple pokes can wall it (mostly all the Psychic types)

First of all so many of Meditite's issues aren't even much of a big deal, with 4MSS beign the biggest problem. Psychic-types that wall it aren't that big of a problem because of how strong Knock Off is (although Psychics still do a damn good job) And it's speed can be somewhat remedied by the priority it can run (still an issue, but the prio helps)

Meditite is really strong and although can't win games on its own, or be an asset regardless of how dumb you play it, Meditite is still marginally better than the rest of the metagame at high-level LC play. This makes Meditite broken. Good teams around Meditite tend to be better than good teams around other fight-types, and the presence of Meditite is probably one of the reasons that perfectly good Pokemon like Croagunk and Timburr are starting to fall out of usage quite a bit.

1. A Pokemon requiring team support doesn't make it balanced.

If the team support that Meditite needs is on 70% of the teams, and can be absolutely devastating on 70% of teams (an arbitrary figure for team that run Knock Off) It's still broken 70% of the time and can then pull off work almost similarly to Murkrow. Even these niche checks like Elygem are beaten by 70% of the meta, making it that Meditite has a good chance of pulling off what it does. This also goes along with its defensive typing, as there are a lot of Pokemon that Meditite can go in on, and has a very easy time getting a free turn to wreck havoc. Meditite doesn't have as low of an opportunity cost as Murkrow, but it's still pretty damn low for a similar effect.

2. Outside of extremely niche counters (bar Wynaut/Slowpoke), switching into Meditite are based on coinflip predictions.

LC shouldn't be based around all these coinflip predictions whether it will go for ZHB or HJK. Sadly, Meditite imposes so much coinflip predictions upon the metagame that people will want to avoid it and run things like Honedge, things like Elygem or just run a bunch of things that can revenge it. For this reason, Meditite promotes a style of play that is not healthy for the metagame, and create situations where skill is not involved in winning, but team matchup is.

3. Meditite is just better than every Pokemon in LC outside of Krow right now.

At this point we have to admit it, I don't care whether someone thinks this team is cool and has no S-rankers. Most forms of offense, particularly Knock Off+Meditite/Krow or Hazard Stacking Offense is one of the strongest playstyles in the metagame right now. Murkrow is definitely responsible for this but Meditite+Knock Off combinations are responsible for it as well. Recently I've been running Taillow, another hard-hitter that is almost as powerful as Meditite but suffers many other issues (needing Choice, easy to wear down, checks are a bit more common, frail, SR Weak) that prevent it from being as good as Meditite. Meditite is easily better than Taillow and is a more valuable asset in the meta. Meditite is the complete package regardless of its 4MSS. Hell, even its 4MSS can be an asset when it comes to surprising the opp's "counter" to Meditite. Meditite is the complete package and outside of Krow and (maybe) Misdreavus, Meditite is just so much better than the rest of the tier that it deserves a ban.

4.

so i have the same opinions as heysup. murkrow is leaving like i said last gen. meditite i might just ban because only by looking at briyella pictures im reminded its counters are really not existant. sure you can revenge it but that implies something died which isnt really healthy.

Yeah that sums it up quite a bit.

3. Meditite Promotes Variety in Little Cup

There, I said it. With the introduction of the new and improved Knock Off, tons of Pokemon in Little Cup plummeted in viability, and the main group of Pokemon this affected was Psychic-types. They're good against Fighting-types, right? Well, just about all of them carry Knock Off now. The fact that Meditite's STABs are both resisted by Psychic-types is the keystone that keeps Psychic-types in the picture that is XY Little Cup. Meditite is a very strong Pokemon that has advantages against a lot of other Pokemon, and I acknowledge that, but it does not limit strategy and options the way Tangela did, or the way Sneasel did. If anything, Meditite actually makes a lot of Pokemon viable, whereas Murkrow makes a lot of Pokemon unusable. It's one thing to limit the teambuilding of a ton of Pokemon, and it's another thing to actually promote healthiness in the tier, and that's exactly what Meditite does. Wynaut and Honedge would be considered for teamslots a lot less if Meditite's existence didn't make them important, and Exeggcute wouldn't even be thought about. Getting rid of Meditite would cause an entire group of Pokemon to lose their niche and honestly their whole reason for seeing usage in the current metagame, which would further restrict the variety of this tier and that is not something I want to have happen, not when this Pokemon isn't even overwhelming to the tier; its list of checks and counters is extensive enough to keep it from getting out of hand, I believe.

As much as I hate to disagree due to my love of Wynaut, this is a different kind of variety, not a healthy kind. This kind of variety is the thing where Growlithe was picked a lot on teams because of how strong Sneasel was. Meditite shapes the meta quite a bit in the sense that it makes Psychic-types that would otherwise be unviable viable. However, a Pokemon should be good because it is a good mon and has its own benefits, not because something else is so strong that you need to react against it. Pokemon that aren't good against Meditite/Krow quickly fall off the meta unless they have something real good going for them (Mienfoo's case). That is not the kind of diversity that we are trying to achieve in LC.

Meditite can be dealt with pretty easily by just playing in a way that you don't let it come in for free. Double switching to checks or keeping Meditite-bait Pokemon off the field generally is enough to drastically limit Meditite's potential. Murkrow and Missy are kind of the biggest reason this technique works so well in limiting Meditite. With Murkrow heading out the door, it might push Meditite over the edge, but that was said when Swirlix and Gligar left and it still isn't broken imo. I think Meditite needs to be tried in a meta w/o Krow first.

One of Meditite's assets is that it is really good at switching in for free, because of its good defensive typing, the fact that any pokemon that can meditite can switchin to instantly become a liability for the duration of the match show Tits is broken enough.



In the end, sorry for being late to discussions, I'm GMT+8 because of my Philippine Timezone. Hope I can still contribute!

 

[gali]

imo one of the biggest problems that Meditite has is that it can't switch into attacks to save its life. Pretty much any neutral STAB attack will 2HKO it:

68 SpA Chinchou Scald vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Meditite: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

76 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

92 Atk Ferroseed Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 12-18 (57.1 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So yeah, LO Meditite can't really switch in to anything. For something that's supposed to be one of the best wallbreakers in the tier, being 2HKOed by the walls you're supposed to beat is not very good.

One of Meditite's assets is that it is really good at switching in for free, because of its good defensive typing, the fact that any pokemon that can meditite can switchin to instantly become a liability for the duration of the match show Tits is broken enough.

Meditite's defensive typing is pretty meh tbh. As I showed above, it can't take a hit, and its typing doesn't help this with only 2 resistances. It also has 3 weaknesses to common attacking types, which doesn't make its life any easier.

 

[Corporal Levi]

1. A Pokemon requiring team support doesn't make it balanced.
2. Outside of extremely niche counters (bar Wynaut/Slowpoke), switching into Meditite are based on coinflip predictions.
3. Meditite is just better than every Pokemon in LC outside of Krow right now.

1. All notable sweepers in the metagame (except maybe krow) have numerous counters and strong checks, and as such, require support. Once these checks and counters are removed, these sweepers will be able to sweep. Every relevant offensive Pokemon will be brutal if its checks and counters are taken out or severely weakened; this is the nature of an offensive Pokemon.
2. This is absolutely true, but the same applies for other top tier offensive Pokemon; if they had multiple, highly effective hard counters that were extremely relevant, they wouldn't be able to function nearly as effectively. Misdreavus can beat every switch-in except defensive Shadow Ball Porygon with a combination of Shadow Ball/Dazzling Gleam/HP Fighting/Will-o-Wisp/Nasty Plot. Ponyta is able to do the same to every switch-in except Thick Fat Resttalk Eviolite Munchlax, Resttalk Tyrunt, and maybe a few other niche mons with a combination of Fire Blast/Solar Beam/Morning Sun/Sunny Day/Will-O-Wisp. If for example, Scarf Pawniard switches in on Misdreavus to something other than WoW/HP Fighting, it wins. In this case, the opponent of Misdreavus is forced to engage in a coin flip should the Pokemon currently out not threaten Misdreavus severely. I did list five moves for both examples because Meditite isn't able to beat every relevant threat with four moves, either.
3. This is quite a bold and subjective statement that could certainly be disagreed with. Every other S ranked and A ranked mon has its unique advantages over Meditite to warrant a spot over it on a team; even the aforementioned Taillow has the advantage of reaching more than a measly 16 speed (this is not an argument that Taillow is more viable than Meditite, I'm just making a point here).

 

[Mozz]

OK, i think that most people agree, krow is broken due to its combination of speed, power, and set variety. lets suffice it to say that i am pro-ban on krow.

Meditite is a different matter, i'll edit in my thoughts later, but the combination of actual counters (i have never seen one use fire punch, for example)

 

[Heysup]

imo one of the biggest problems that Meditite has is that it can't switch into attacks to save its life. Pretty much any neutral STAB attack will 2HKO it:

68 SpA Chinchou Scald vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Meditite: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

76 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

92 Atk Ferroseed Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 12-18 (57.1 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So yeah, LO Meditite can't really switch in to anything. For something that's supposed to be one of the best wallbreakers in the tier, being 2HKOed by the walls you're supposed to beat is not very good.



Meditite's defensive typing is pretty meh tbh. As I showed above, it can't take a hit, and its typing doesn't help this with only 2 resistances. It also has 3 weaknesses to common attacking types, which doesn't make its life any easier.

Why are you demonstrating its defensive capabilities using Life Orb Meditite? You should only be switching that into Fighting-types.....(Knock Off doesn't 2HKO because it goes from 97.5 to its regular 65). Eviolite takes all of those attacks with ease and heals off any damage they do with Drain Punch.

 

[chimp]

3. Meditite is just better than every Pokemon in LC outside of Krow right now.

At this point we have to admit it, I don't care whether someone thinks this team is cool and has no S-rankers. Most forms of offense, particularly Knock Off+Meditite/Krow or Hazard Stacking Offense is one of the strongest playstyles in the metagame right now. Murkrow is definitely responsible for this but Meditite+Knock Off combinations are responsible for it as well. Recently I've been running Taillow, another hard-hitter that is almost as powerful as Meditite but suffers many other issues (needing Choice, easy to wear down, checks are a bit more common, frail, SR Weak) that prevent it from being as good as Meditite. Meditite is easily better than Taillow and is a more valuable asset in the meta. Meditite is the complete package regardless of its 4MSS. Hell, even its 4MSS can be an asset when it comes to surprising the opp's "counter" to Meditite. Meditite is the complete package and outside of Krow and (maybe) Misdreavus, Meditite is just so much better than the rest of the tier that it deserves a ban.

I don't know, there is a lot meditite can't do. I don't think I'd classify meditite as a sweeper; its way too slow. There are a lot of pokemon who perform different jobs than medi, especially considering it really only has one set. I mentioned in an earlier post that meditite doesn't really prevent a lot of pokemon from being successful; just look at Pawniard and Mienfoo, they are crazy amazing in the meta and are still weak to one of meditite's STABs.
Meditite is certainly the most powerful attacker, but saying its "just better than every Pokemon in LC" is a huge stretch.

 

[Cutie Caitlyn]

Murkrow
Murkrow's stats spread + Prankster Ability makes it a monster in LC. Murkrow can be both utilize in attacking and +1 Priority non-damaging moves specially status moves. Murkrow just removes the balance in LC. 85 Base Attack + both STAB on Brave Bird, Thief Berry Juice Combo, and Sucker Punch for attacking. +1 Priority Substitute, Roost(Like Gale Wings), Taunt, Toxic, Swagger and Thunder Wave. Murkrow can't be in LC anymore.

Meditite
Good typing, movepool, stats, and Huge Power ability, what else can you ask for? Meditite's OP in LC because of that. A STAB Pure Power High Jump Kick, Drain Punch, Zen Headbutt, and Psycho Cut. Plus a decent bulk 30/55/55 defenses. A movepool good for sweeping coverage such as Bullet Punch, Poison Jab, and Rock Slide. Fairy, Flying, and Ghost as weaknesses is not bad either.

 

[chimp]

Murkrow
Murkrow's stats spread + Prankster Ability makes it a monster in LC. Murkrow can be both utilize in attacking and +1 Priority non-damaging moves specially status moves. Murkrow just removes the balance in LC. 62 Base Attack + both STAB on Brave Bird and Knock Off for attacking. +1 Priority Substitute, Roost(Like Gale Wings), Taunt, Toxic, Swagger and Thunder Wave. Murkrow can't be in LC anymore.

Meditite
Good typing, movepool, stats, and Huge Power ability, what else can you ask for? Meditite's OP in LC because of that. A STAB Pure Power High Jump Kick, Drain Punch, Zen Headbutt, and Psycho Cut. Plus a decent bulk 30/55/55 defenses. A movepool good for sweeping coverage such as Bullet Punch, Poison Jab, and Rock Slide. Fairy, Flying, and Ghost as weaknesses is not bad either.

Murkrow doesn't get Knock Off (Thank God), and its attack stat is base 85.

 

[Cutie Caitlyn]

Murkrow doesn't get Knock Off (Thank God), and its attack stat is base 85.

oh. why did I put 62 in that? sorry. my bad.