Metagame NP: RU Stage -1: Message to Oglemi, Nails, and Honko (VENOMOTH STOLEN FROM US))

[Kawaii Kyouko]

>not putting SmashPass as potential quickban as well
Seriously.. I'm tired of getting smashed by +2+2 Explouds.

Molk edit: if theres an outcry later on about smashpass i'd have no problem with it being suspected like last gen (i know for a fact smashpass to exploud is really really good to say the least), for now we're sticking to sableye azelf kyurem tho.

 

[SilentVerse]

The main reason SmashPass wasn't put up for a quickban was mainly due to the fact that the RU council didn't feel it was necessary to have more than three potential quickbans before actual suspect testing started, and Kyurem, Sableye, and Azelf were the Pokemon that stood out to most of us on the council as potentially broken. In comparison to those three Pokemon, SmashPass didn't really seem to be as gamebreaking and we felt it needs more time to be explored before deciding whether or not it was really broken, especially since RU got a lot of new toys to deal with it this generation, including stuff like Haze Milotic (which is incredibly good and very usable outside of beating SmashPass), fast Taunters like Froslass, and the fact that the increased power of the tier in general makes passing a much more difficult task than before. It will probably be suspected (and possibly banned?) at some point in the future, but right now its less of an issue than Sableye / Azelf / Kyurem in our eyes.

 

[MAMP]

I feel that all three of these Pokemon are broken. Kyurem is completely retarded, it has so much raw power behind its attacks, combined with incredible coverage in Dragon/Ice/Ground, which means almost nothing can switch in. The only safe answers to it are Bronzong, some AV users, and Regice I guess. It has so many great sets, from Scarf, Specs, offensive and defensive SubRoost, Life Orb, and even mixed sets, that nothing is truly safe from it. It is very effective at beating out its counters; defensive answers like Bronzong and Aromatisse can be stalled out by SubRoost, and it can surprise offensive checks with a scarf. I struggle to think of a team that wouldn't benefit from Kyurem in some way. Definitely too good for the meta.

I'm on the fence regarding Azelf, and tbh I wouldnt mind if it stayed or went. Its somewhat similar to Genesect in that it has such an excellent movepool and such good mixed attacking stats that pretty much nothing is safe from it. It also has a nice support movepool, including SR, Taunt, Screens, T-wave, etc. However, the fact that it can't switch in to anything, and is easily checked by scarfers, and is prone to pursuit trapping prevents it from being too strong.

Atomicllamas said everything there is to be said about Sableye, get that shit out of the tier.

 

[KingQuags]

Yay bans are happening!

Kyurem is absolutely cray cray. Most of the teams have been restricted to having Bronzong on them, who I am absolutely loving in the tier btw, because without it I pretty much have to send something in to die, if not take a heavy hit, every time it comes in.

Azelf is something I would be glad to not have to worry about. It's fast and powerful, and an awesome move pool that lets it run a large variety of viable sets.

Sableye...this one is more or less self-explanitory. I haven't encountered it all that much on the ladder, but I can just say that it's obnoxious and Aromatisse is the only Fairy in the tier to deal with it 100% being immune to Taunt and absorbing Knock Offs and such.


As for potential bans, Reuniclus plz. This thing is absolutely stupid, one calm mind and it's ready to tear teams apart.

kind of a quick post just because want to slap something up before sleep.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Kyurem and Sableye I really would appreciate being banned. Kyurem honestly is just too strong for the metagame, running a wide variety of sets that can power through the opposition without much of a hassle due to its really high attacking stats or stall the opponent out with its very high bulk and pressure. More importantly, however, those stats and access to instant recovery, along with a good enough movepool for coverage against most Pokemon, just put Kyurem at a bit too much of an advantage. You can't wall it and there are only a few Pokemon that are relatively safe against it, many of which get screwed over by some variant of Kyurem. Despite all its initial weaknesses it isn't even hard to switch in due to that high bulk and its Dragon-typing which gives it plenty of resistances. Its too strong, bulky, and versatile to be a part of RU imo

Sableye is almost too perfect of a way to check physical attackers and is really annoying to fight since you cannot exploit any weaknesses. Priority Will-o-Wisp has always been really annoying when paired up priority Recover, and Knock Off diminishes these chances even further. Defensive teams also tend to crumble against Sableye, who can just Taunt the opponent and recover all day while Knocking Off any means of recovery. It isn't bulky but it is barely bulky enough to be really, really hard to kill. I think atomicllamas put it better than I could tbh, I agree with everything he said.

Azelf on the other hand I am not as sure about yet. While it is a very dangerous force with a crazy movepool, the fragility is what gets me. Sure, a +2 (hell even +0) Life Orb Azelf has some ridiculous damage calculations that you can point out (please don't, its not quite enough info) and it is one of the fastest things in the meta, but it is a hard Pokemom to switch in - having only a few resistances and being absolutely wrecked by paralysis from a defensive mon does not help. Granted, you probably don't have much of an idea as to what it is running once it gets on the field, but Scarf users, priority users, Knock Off (Dark-types in general), and generally keeping up the offensive pressure makes it hard for Azelf to accomplish that much - 70/70/70 bulk or whatever it has isn't very good, especially when it has no means of giving itself a safe means of setting up something... other than having a coverage move that could threaten to kill the opponent. While it is hard to find a defensive Pokemon that can take hits from Azelf, anything that can hit Azelf before it can hit is generally in good shape. It can do a lot of damage, but I'm not sure if it needs to be banned yet.

 

[EonX]

Aighte, figured I would share some of my thoughts when it comes to the 3 suspects:

Kyurem: I used this a bit early on, and yeah, this thing is ridiculous. Just about every team I have that doesn't use Escavalier is weak to this thing. I've gone to the point of using Lum SD Cobalion as an emergency check to this thing. It is so difficult to switch into. I mean, you know it's gonna have Draco and Ice Beam on most sets. But after that, you have no freakin clue. It could have HP Fire to put heavy pressure on that AV Escavalier you thought was safe. Oh, Aromatisse. That's nice. Too bad it just rocked your world with Iron Head / Specs Flash Cannon. Yeah, this thing has insane power and coverage for RU. Damn near impossible to safely counter without risking that your check or counter will get wrecked. Oh, and if you switch in a defensive "counter" and it turns out to be SubRoost; good luck. You'll need it.

Sableye: Haven't seen much of this thing, but I generally haven't had a ton of issues with this thing as I use Lum SD Cobalion and Sub + 3 Attacks Gallade as physical sweepers on most of my teams. That said, it is really annoying for physical sweepers outside of these. It can single-handedly cripple stall teams thanks to Wisp, Knock Off, and Taunt. Against offensive teams, a priority Will-O-Wisp is just screwing any physical attacker that doesn't have Sub (and use it as Sableye comes in) or a Lum Berry. Really hard to handle if you don't have something like Moltres, a Lum Berry / Sub physical sweeper, or Emboar.

Azelf: Another ridiculous offensive threat. Honestly, this is probably the most verstile mon in the tier right now. NP, Scarf (physical or special) Band, Mixed, Suicide Lead, there's so much it can do.... and do really, really well. Not much is taking NP-boosted attacks well at all, but it could just attack off the bat with a Mixed or Band set. You try saving your Scarf mon for when it tries to set up, but you're p. much done if it happens to be a Scarf set as well. Overall, I really don't see one Pokemon that has a way of beating any Azelf set. Sure, bulky Ghosts and Psychics like Cofag, Cress, and Slowking can fair better than most, all get fucked by Trick from any Choice set and none enjoy taking Knock Off. To make matters worse, almost every non-NP set has U-turn, so your check may just be met with a U-turn and a counter to it. Very hard to handle due to its versatility, and there's no guarantee that the thing you've saved for it is going to work.

 

[Turtleye]

Ok, to cover topics, stuff, and other things:

As for a topic I want to bring up, it would be this guy that I've been running lately:

Skuntank @ Black Sludge
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SDef
Nature: Adamant
- Defog
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab​

Skuntank is a fairly cool Pokemon imo. The Defog buff has certainly given it a new niche as it is the only Defog user to my knowledge that can simply absorb Toxic Spikes upon entry. This is really cool since it can just absorb the Toxic Spikes rather than having to spend a turn to Defog them away. Thanks to its decent bulk and cool typing, it is able to check most Psychic-types in the tier thanks to STAB Sucker Punch + Pursuit. While it doesn't get Knock Off, this combination allows Skuntank to be a fairly reliable check to Azelf considering it can just Pursuit the pixie if Skuntank comes in on a Psychic move or Sucker Punch should the pixie catch in on the switch with Fire Blast. The EV spread supports Skuntank's ability to check Azelf by maximizing Attack and overall bulk while lowering passive damage. This set can be played a bit more offensive with Life Orb and a faster EV spread, but I personally like the bulkier spread to check Azelf as there aren't many things that can generally win no matter what as long as Azelf isn't using U-turn as Skuntank switches in. (but every Azelf "counter" has problems with this) So has anyone else had the time to work some with Skuntank?

I actually ran Skuntank right form the start of RU Beta this Gen and I haven't even considered replacing it. I still have difficulties in choosing between Poison Jab and Crunch, but I guess Poison Jab is better since you're not running 3 Dark moves, but yeah...
Anyway, Defog is pretty cool onSkuntank, although it is weak to Ground which sucks since most SR users are Ground Types/Get Earthquake anyway. Sucker Punch+Pursuit is funny for mindgames and keeping random stuff in check.
Also Aftermath is a pretty cool ability and I often use it as a failsafe against stuff that managed to setup and are Physical Attackers.
Overall great 'mon, cool utility, use this more.

 

[Martin]

Its not on suspect, but I think that its a little funny that Rhyperior doesn't get Spikes dispite its pre-evolution (Rhyhorn) being the SPIKES pokemon

 

[The Lucky Absol]

I've played enough RU to give some opinions on the suspect Pokemon.

Kyurem: I have yet to have a single problem facing one of these. Most sets I see are special attackers and AV Gallade pretty much stops it cold. (Escavalier can take physical sets easily)
Just so show how well Gallade bulks it and is able to dish out here is a calc:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Gallade: 207-244 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (It won't 2HKO with that Special attack drop and the regained HP from drain punch)
252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 288-338 (73.4 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Azelf: Eh I've had a few problems with it, But not enough to really make it ban worthy. As long as you can take one of its attacks and hit it back, usually you do enough damage to take it out or at least severely cripple it. Delphox and Reuniclus are good at checking it. While Reuniclus walls it (as long as it isn't a Nasty plot set or carries shadow ball,) Delphox can threaten it with fire blast.

Sableye: I remember having fun using this in OU 5th gen. It is definitely evil to deal with, I've only seen a few though. Its defenses are low but that doesn't matter if you have priority will-o-wisp and recover. Knock off also helps it greatly, being able to take off choice bands and specs that would otherwise guarantee the KO. I'd be fine seeing it stay or go. Milotic is a decent check though, even though it hates losing its item, it doesn't mind being burned and most sets carry toxic too, so it is possible to out stall it.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

Kyurem: I have yet to have a single problem facing one of these. Most sets I see are special attackers and AV Gallade pretty much stops it cold. (Escavalier can take physical sets easily)
Just so show how well Gallade bulks it and is able to dish out here is a calc:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Gallade: 207-244 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (It won't 2HKO with that Special attack drop and the regained HP from drain punch)
252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 288-338 (73.4 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Please, for the love of God, don't post "I use AV X on my team so it isn't broken". It's a stupid argument.

I used Lickilicky and Aromatisse, but I want that thing gone. And, unless you're using the same team since the start of RU or the same Gallade in all your teams, which is another point of why Kyurem needs to go: that thing is too restrictive to teambuilding. It almost forces you to run AV Escavalier/Bronzong/Registeel/AV random thing, and with it'll beat the set you want it to ban. Besides, it's unpredictable. The bulky waters that can "check" it are demolished by the SubRoost, especially if it's paired with Toxic Spikes. Escavalier is also a nice check, only to discover that HP Fire deals a ton from Scarf and Specs. Not to mention how easy is to wear down the bug knight if your team lacks wish. And for your AV with mmiserable physical defense, remember that Kyuremm can go mixed and even Choice Band, ruining your day. That's only an argument between the amazing offensive/defensive stats and cool movepool. Kyurem is unhealthy.

Regarding Azelf, that thing is also broken. As a friend of me pointed out, it's basically a Genesect: unpredictable, fast and powerful. Nasty Plot is so damn good and Azelf doesn't really care for the 4MSS since it can be tailored to what the team struggles against, with it's amazing special movepool of Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, Dazzling Gleam, etc. And then you bring your supposed special wall not Psyshock weak to take Azelf hits to discover that it's physical! Choice Band Azelf is a threat, can just U-turn the field off early in match and at the end of the game can pick off the weakened stuff with a brilliant physical movepool. And to top it off, its speed. Oh it's sexy base 115 speed lets Azelf be revenge killed only by scarf users and strong priority such as Zoroark, Mega Bannete (252+ Atk Mega Banette Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 230-272 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO NOT A FUCKING OHKO) and Spiritomb, and the SB if you're lucky. All that qualities make Azelf too broken for RU.

As for Sableye, I don't really have an opinion about it since I faced it only a few times. I agree with Atomicllamas post about why the council picked it, but for me I'd wait more. I abstain on talking about it since I lack any experience regarding it.

 

[newfren]

I'm really loving Escavalier/Aromatisse as a core. I totally stole it from Reverend and have been using it on like every team I've made since because it handles so many threats so well.

AV Escav takes on like all the special attackers in the tier without access to fire blast, and Spdef Aromatisse uses them all as free wish passes and aromatherapies so escav isn't horribly crippled after taking on 1 pokemon. Both of them take a dump over most kyurem sets too.

Plus it works pretty well within trick room which is really nice because trick room is great in this tier.

 

[The Lucky Absol]

Please, for the love of God, don't post "I use AV X on my team so it isn't broken". It's a stupid argument.

I used Lickilicky and Aromatisse, but I want that thing gone. And, unless you're using the same team since the start of RU or the same Gallade in all your teams, which is another point of why Kyurem needs to go: that thing is too restrictive to teambuilding. It almost forces you to run AV Escavalier/Bronzong/Registeel/AV random thing, and with it'll beat the set you want it to ban. Besides, it's unpredictable. The bulky waters that can "check" it are demolished by the SubRoost, especially if it's paired with Toxic Spikes. Escavalier is also a nice check, only to discover that HP Fire deals a ton from Scarf and Specs. Not to mention how easy is to wear down the bug knight if your team lacks wish. And for your AV with mmiserable physical defense, remember that Kyuremm can go mixed and even Choice Band, ruining your day. That's only an argument between the amazing offensive/defensive stats and cool movepool. Kyurem is unhealthy.

Regarding Azelf, that thing is also broken. As a friend of me pointed out, it's basically a Genesect: unpredictable, fast and powerful. Nasty Plot is so damn good and Azelf doesn't really care for the 4MSS since it can be tailored to what the team struggles against, with it's amazing special movepool of Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, Dazzling Gleam, etc. And then you bring your supposed special wall not Psyshock weak to take Azelf hits to discover that it's physical! Choice Band Azelf is a threat, can just U-turn the field off early in match and at the end of the game can pick off the weakened stuff with a brilliant physical movepool. And to top it off, its speed. Oh it's sexy base 115 speed lets Azelf be revenge killed only by scarf users and strong priority such as Zoroark, Mega Bannete (252+ Atk Mega Banette Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 230-272 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO NOT A FUCKING OHKO) and Spiritomb, and the SB if you're lucky. All that qualities make Azelf too broken for RU.

As for Sableye, I don't really have an opinion about it since I faced it only a few times. I agree with Atomicllamas post about why the council picked it, but for me I'd wait more. I abstain on talking about it since I lack any experience regarding it.

I see your point, it is a really versatile Pokemon. I guess since the beginning of XY RU I've been using a Gallade/Escavalier Defensive core, so I haven't seen the trouble Kyurem brings to others.

 

[termi]

Guys, just a friendly reminder: When arguing whether or not something is broken/unhealthy for the meta, do not bring "Pokemon X and Y can check/counter it, therefor it is not OP" as an argument, as any Pokemon has at least a few Pokemon that can take care of it, what matters is how many checks/counters there are to these Pokemon, how good they are at checking/countering this Pokemon and how badly you are screwed when you don't have one of these specific Pokemon on your team.

Using these guidelines, I can conclude that Kyurem is definitely too much for the meta. No, I have not had major problems with any Kyurem so far (aside from one AV set because a Gorebyss passed a Shell Smash to it - I can not understate how badly you are fucked if that happens), but one might question whether that was because of the fact that Kyurem isn't broken or because my opponents simply didn't use sets that can easily muscle past its common checks/counters. Here are the facts:

1: There are not many Pokemon that can safely switch into Kyurem, even when disregarding the many sets it can run. With a Modest nature and only Ice Beam/Earth Power for coverage, it can already hit an amazing amount of Pokemon really hard. On top of that, even with its bad defensive typing, it has so much bulk that it can switch in rather easily on some dangerous threats and continue to force them out if they lack a SE move and set up a Sub or whatever it likes to do.
2: The Pokemon that are supposedly reliable Kyurem counters do not do their job all that well. AV Escavalier might be neat for countering Sub sets, but if it's an offensive LO set it can easily pass up Sub for HP Fire, which is an easy 2HKO even without LO. Banded sets, although admittedly I haven't seen one yet, get a guaranteed 2HKO on Escavalier with Adamant Outrage after SR. On top of that, AV means no recovery outside of Wish passing, which means that Escavalier is worn down rather easily. AV Gallade is also easily worn down, and while yes, it counters any special set, it succumbs when Kyurem decides to throw a physical its way. Aromatisse is destroyed by physical/mixed sets with Iron Head. See where I'm going? Not only is it dangerous enough to threaten a large part of the meta, but it also is flexible enough to take on its standard counters with a different but still viable set.
3: While Kyurem is easy to revenge kill (disregarding situations where it's Scarfed or has got a Sub up (which is quite often, mind)), it can still always switch out, so checks can't come in and just kill it. Checks will always be there, but it's solid counters you're looking for, and as is, I don't see anything perfectly viable that's able to counter Kyurem no matter what it runs.
4: If you are a defensive player who has nothing that outspeeds and beats Kyurem, you will go thru hell trying to break its sub while it just Roosts and PP stalls you or when it just decides to break half your walls, it's quite ridiculous. Let's not forget, by the way, that its "counters" will HAVE to be used when you don't have a check for it, and preferrably two because you don't know for sure what set it will run and because its "counters" are usually really easy to wear down.

tl;dr Kyurem limits teambuilding too much and has too little reliable answers to stay in the RU metagame.

Azelf is also something I regard broken, for I myself find myself in many situations where I simply can't make the right play because I don't know what it runs. Its high speed, huge coverage + support movepool and its great mixed offenses make it way too unpredictable. Unlike Kyurem, not only does an Azelf player have the potential to use this versatility, but he will usually use this too. Where Kyurem is still often SubRoost or special LO, Azelf runs so much different shit that it's insane. Due to this, I can't reliably switch any defensive answer into it in fear of it running something for that. Escavalier can be fried by a Fire Blast or crippled by Knock Off. Togetic becomes really mediocre after Knock Off strikes it. Azelf can also just U-Turn out while I switch something else in, resulting in free momentum. He might just set up SR/dual screens/what you want. He can set up a NP and crush any hope I had for my Aromatisse to stop him in his tracks. Any of these sets is very much viable and should be taken into account and all you can do about it is hope that you guessed its set right or else you're going down.

tl;dr fuck Azelf, get it out of here

Sableye is a stinkin shit, anything that is bothered by Taunt nor by a burn hates taking a Knock Off to the face, it stops physical sweepers in their tracks with priority Will-o-Wisp and priority recovery is gay af

tl;dr fuck goblin

General tl;dr: BARN ALL

 

[Meru]

I'm really loving Escavalier/Aromatisse as a core. I totally stole it from Reverend and have been using it on like every team I've made since because it handles so many threats so well.

AV Escav takes on like all the special attackers in the tier without access to fire blast, and Spdef Aromatisse uses them all as free wish passes and aromatherapies so escav isn't horribly crippled after taking on 1 pokemon. Both of them take a dump over most kyurem sets too.

Plus it works pretty well within trick room which is really nice because trick room is great in this tier.

Personally, I think Alomomola + AV Escavalier works so much better. Aside from the obvious 4x Fire Weakness being resisted by Alomomola, it also forms a dual Knock Off core, which can cause the opponent to have to send out two different 'mons to lose their item. Aromatisse is good and all, but since it lacks Alomomola's Regenerator, I've found it doesn't stick around as long as it needs to.

 

[EonX]

Warning: Got a bit carried away with calcs and such, so beware.

The Lucky Absol , I really don't like the idea of using "random AV Pokemon" to check Kyurem. The fact that you're using AV on shit like Gallade, Raikou, and Meloetta (to an extent; this is actually a legit cool set) should show just how fucked up Kyurem is. But I'll get into why I feel they aren't even safe a little later. I've already explained why I feel Azelf is broken. You listed Delphox and Reuniclus as reliable answers to it, but take a look at this:

4 Atk Life Orb Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 289-341 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.
252 Atk Choice Band Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 268-316 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Yeah, Azelf simply needs Knock Off to kill off Delphox. For Reuniclus, there's no guarantee that Azelf is special. If you come across a Band set, Reuni is toast. Put simply, you cannot safely counter Azelf. Is there answers to every individual set Azelf has? Absolutely. If it's special, then Delphox and Reuniclus are generally ok unless Zelf carries Shadow Ball (which is rare af) But should it be mixed, or even worse, Banded, then these two checks suddenly become quite worthless.

Now, to Kyurem. The reason I don't like the argument of using "random AV Pokemon" to handle Kyurem is its ability to go mixed or physical. Let's take the Scarf set just as an example. This will use a moveset consisting of Draco, Ice Beam, Earth Power, and Outrage, a very plausible moveset for a Scarf Kyurem:

4 Atk Kyurem Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 231-273 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
4 Atk Kyurem Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 205-243 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
4 Atk Kyurem Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Meloetta: 202-238 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah, they're all in deep shit. And if you use them to take a hit early on in the match, then these 2HKOes turn into OHKOes very easily outside of Meloetta. And before you say "Outrage sucks on Scarf", I don't want to hear it. Outrage gives Kyurem a very legitimate cleaning move for when the opponent only has special tanks / walls left (high possibility due to Kyurem's special attacking presence) Something that atomicllamas and I talked about a bit on irc last night was the possibility of physical Kyurem. While it has a horrid movepool, we did come up with a physical SubRoost set that quite simply shits on a lot of common responses and would probably look something like this:

Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 52 HP / 220 Atk / 236 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Substitute
- Roost
- Dragon Tail
- Iron Head​

EVs are debatable, but if this thing has Spikes support, good fucking luck. Anything that can't break its Sub gets Pressure stalled. Oh, and if you can, you're just getting phazed out with Dragon Tail. Makes all of those AV mons cry. And it has Iron Head for random Fairy-types like Aromatisse and Granbull thinking they can beat Kyurem. So, yeah, to say this thing is stupid good and capable of beating most things used for checking it would be an understatement.

/wall of text

 

[The Lucky Absol]

Warning: Got a bit carried away with calcs and such, so beware.

The Lucky Absol , I really don't like the idea of using "random AV Pokemon" to check Kyurem. The fact that you're using AV on shit like Gallade, Raikou, and Meloetta (to an extent; this is actually a legit cool set) should show just how fucked up Kyurem is. But I'll get into why I feel they aren't even safe a little later. I've already explained why I feel Azelf is broken. You listed Delphox and Reuniclus as reliable answers to it, but take a look at this:

4 Atk Life Orb Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 289-341 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.
252 Atk Choice Band Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 268-316 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Yeah, Azelf simply needs Knock Off to kill off Delphox. For Reuniclus, there's no guarantee that Azelf is special. If you come across a Band set, Reuni is toast. Put simply, you cannot safely counter Azelf. Is there answers to every individual set Azelf has? Absolutely. If it's special, then Delphox and Reuniclus are generally ok unless Zelf carries Shadow Ball (which is rare af) But should it be mixed, or even worse, Banded, then these two checks suddenly become quite worthless.

Now, to Kyurem. The reason I don't like the argument of using "random AV Pokemon" to handle Kyurem is its ability to go mixed or physical. Let's take the Scarf set just as an example. This will use a moveset consisting of Draco, Ice Beam, Earth Power, and Outrage, a very plausible moveset for a Scarf Kyurem:

4 Atk Kyurem Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 231-273 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
4 Atk Kyurem Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 205-243 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
4 Atk Kyurem Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Meloetta: 202-238 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah, they're all in deep shit. And if you use them to take a hit early on in the match, then these 2HKOes turn into OHKOes very easily outside of Meloetta. And before you say "Outrage sucks on Scarf", I don't want to hear it. Outrage gives Kyurem a very legitimate cleaning move for when the opponent only has special tanks / walls left (high possibility due to Kyurem's special attacking presence) Something that atomicllamas and I talked about a bit on irc last night was the possibility of physical Kyurem. While it has a horrid movepool, we did come up with a physical SubRoost set that quite simply shits on a lot of common responses and would probably look something like this:

Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 52 HP / 220 Atk / 236 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Substitute
- Roost
- Dragon Tail
- Iron Head​

EVs are debatable, but if this thing has Spikes support, good fucking luck. Anything that can't break its Sub gets Pressure stalled. Oh, and if you can, you're just getting phazed out with Dragon Tail. Makes all of those AV mons cry. And it has Iron Head for random Fairy-types like Aromatisse and Granbull thinking they can beat Kyurem. So, yeah, to say this thing is stupid good and capable of beating most things used for checking it would be an understatement.

/wall of text

I see more of why these pokemon are suspected. Too be fair, I rarely see Azelf (I don't know how, I've only seen it a couple times in my 100+ RU battles on my multiple accounts) and for some reason I completely forgot how popular physical Azelf was. I'm still a little on the wall about it, but I will definitely be fine if Kyurem and Azelf are kicked out of RU. Still don't have enough experience with sableye.
Also, where did you get AV Meloetta and Raikou from? I've never used those before, though I guess Meloetta could be a decent AV user now that I think about it.

 

[Wahuh]

Just my two cents, I would like to see Sableye get banned the most out of those three, not sure why he's in RU when he's a pain even in OU.

I've mainly been using Tornadus@Life Orb + Focus Blast or Unburden Hitmonlee to OHKO Kyurem. My main problem with Kyurem is that he's so tanky; he even survives an Eruption from Choice Specs Typhlosion but my team deals with him rather easily.

As for Azelf, I haven't had many problems. It's a predictable lead and Mega Bannette is the best check as it can OHKO it with Knock Off/Shadow Claw. Otherwise Knock Off is a great move to use on it.

Thoughts on Ambipom and Alomomola?
Ambipom's Fake Out is ridiculously strong not to mention his blistering speed.
Alomomola has been extremely hard to kill.

 

[EonX]

The Lucky Absol , I got the idea for AV Meloetta from myself (mostly) I'll re-quote my post about it for convenience:

nah, that's my bad FLCL. I didn't see the post inbetween my first one and your response.

Anyway, since Zebraiken so kindly brought up Meloetta, I want to discuss it's ridiculous movepool. Honest to god, this thing has so many options for a moveset, it isn't even funny. It can use Specs, Scarf, CM, and Mixed Relic for offensive sets. Don't want to go for offense? Well, you can do SpDef, SubCM, and AV. That's like 7 different sets that aren't outlandish. It's movepool is ridiculously wide. I'm just going to spoiler its movepool and what sets you could probalby use the moves on:

Movepool yo

Calm Mind - Calm Mind, SubCM
Close Combat - Mixed Relic
Dazzling Gleam - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Calm Mind
Energy Ball - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf
Focus Blast - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Calm Mind, Assault Vest
Grass Knot - Choice Specs , Choice Scarf
Heal Bell - Specially Defensive
Ice Punch - Mixed Relic
Knock Off - Mixed Relic, Specially Defensive, Assault Vest
Perish Song - Specially Defensive
Psychic - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Calm Mind, SubCM, Assault Vest, Specially Defensive
Psyshock - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Calm Mind, SubCM, Assault Vest
Relic Song - Mixed Relic
Shadow Ball - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Calm Mind
Substitute - SubCM
Thunder Wave - Specially Defensive
Thunderbolt - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf
Toxic - Specially Defensive
Trick - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf
U-turn - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Assault Vest

This is absolutely insane. The crazy part is that only 8 of those moves are restricted to a single set with 2 of them being moves that aren't highly distributed (Heal Bell and Perish Song) and one being Meloetta's signature move (Relic Song) This really allows you to customize the set you use on Meloetta to what your team is more in need of. Here's a set I've tested a little bit that capitalizes on Meloetta's offensive and defensive capabilities:

Meloetta @ Assault Vest
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 192 SpA / 68 SpD
Nature: Modest
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock / Psychic
- U-turn
- Focus Blast​

One of the many sets Meloetta can effectively run is an Assault Vest set. Great 100 / 128 special bulk and a high base 128 Special Attack makes Meloetta a great AV poke. Hyper Voice breaks past Subs which allows Meloetta to be one of the more surefire answers to SubRoost Kyurem. Psyshock nails special walls, but since this Meloetta is more of a tank, Psychic is perfectly usable. U-turn builds momentum on switches that Meloetta forces, and the lack of Speed investment can let Meloetta tank the needed special attack to get a teammate in safely. The last slot is simply used for whatever you need Meloetta to handle. I use Focus Blast to blast Kyurem, but there'a myriad of options. Shadow Ball nails opposing Psychics and takes advantage of your Ghost-type immunity. Dazzling Gleam nails all Dragons (lookin at you Druddigon) while keeping coverage on Dark-types. Grass Knot fucks up Rhyperior's shit (super cool if you have Raikou) and messes with Gastrodon, though Energy Ball is more reliable against it. Heck, you can even use Knock Off if you need more utility support from AV Meloetta. EVs round down passive damage while maximizing overall bulk. 192 Special Attack EVs hits a nature boost point while the 68 Special Defense EVs pumps up Meloetta's special bulk for taking on the likes of Shaymin, Kyurem, and Raikou.

 

[Darkai34]

I would like to write about an unepreciated threat, Kingler.

Sticky web sweeper crab

@ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Crabhammer
- Superpower
- Knock Off/X-scissor

It is suggested that you run kingler on a sticky web support team. With a base atk of 130 Kingler can leave holes on teams. With sticky web support Kingler can outspeed a non scarfed Raikou and 1 hit it with Crabhammer. Even against the most fearsome physical attackers Kingler can either outspeed them and kill them, or take a hit with its good phys.defense and retaliate back. The worst thing about the allmighty crab is its special defense, which leaves it vulnerable against strong special attackers.

Here are some calcs:

252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 140-166 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 430-506 (106.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 202-238 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 441-522 (101.6 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 342-404 (102.3 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 310-366 (96.2 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 179-211 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 19.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 181-213 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Biggest counters: Defensive walls that resist its stab, like Alomomola and Milotic. Also shaymin can take less than 50% (depending on set) and can 1 hit kingler with a strong stab seed flare.

Ideal teammates: 1)Exploud, another sticky web sweeper can really hurt kingler's biggest counters, alomomola and physically defensive milotic
2)Shuckle, can set up sticky web and Srocks which are really important.
3)A ghost type which can act as a spinblocker.
4)Milotic, while not covering the weaknesses, can be an alternative to a spinblocker, with its abillity, competitive, a defog will raise its mediocre sp. attack to good levels, which could raise the difficulty for the opponent.
5) A heal bell user, incase kingler gets burned.
6) Raikou, who can kill alomomola and milotic.

This is my first set in the forums, so any constructive criticism is welcome. :)

 

[Olly]

Aighte, figured I would share some of my thoughts when it comes to the 3 suspects:

Kyurem: I used this a bit early on, and yeah, this thing is ridiculous. Just about every team I have that doesn't use Escavalier is weak to this thing. I've gone to the point of using Lum SD Cobalion as an emergency check to this thing. It is so difficult to switch into. I mean, you know it's gonna have Draco and Ice Beam on most sets. But after that, you have no freakin clue. It could have HP Fire to put heavy pressure on that AV Escavalier you thought was safe. Oh, Aromatisse. That's nice. Too bad it just rocked your world with Iron Head / Specs Flash Cannon. Yeah, this thing has insane power and coverage for RU. Damn near impossible to safely counter without risking that your check or counter will get wrecked. Oh, and if you switch in a defensive "counter" and it turns out to be SubRoost; good luck. You'll need it.

Sableye: Haven't seen much of this thing, but I generally haven't had a ton of issues with this thing as I use Lum SD Cobalion and Sub + 3 Attacks Gallade as physical sweepers on most of my teams. That said, it is really annoying for physical sweepers outside of these. It can single-handedly cripple stall teams thanks to Wisp, Knock Off, and Taunt. Against offensive teams, a priority Will-O-Wisp is just screwing any physical attacker that doesn't have Sub (and use it as Sableye comes in) or a Lum Berry. Really hard to handle if you don't have something like Moltres, a Lum Berry / Sub physical sweeper, or Emboar.

Azelf: Another ridiculous offensive threat. Honestly, this is probably the most verstile mon in the tier right now. NP, Scarf (physical or special) Band, Mixed, Suicide Lead, there's so much it can do.... and do really, really well. Not much is taking NP-boosted attacks well at all, but it could just attack off the bat with a Mixed or Band set. You try saving your Scarf mon for when it tries to set up, but you're p. much done if it happens to be a Scarf set as well. Overall, I really don't see one Pokemon that has a way of beating any Azelf set. Sure, bulky Ghosts and Psychics like Cofag, Cress, and Slowking can fair better than most, all get fucked by Trick from any Choice set and none enjoy taking Knock Off. To make matters worse, almost every non-NP set has U-turn, so your check may just be met with a U-turn and a counter to it. Very hard to handle due to its versatility, and there's no guarantee that the thing you've saved for it is going to work.

I'm not sure bulky ghosts/psychics do a great job vs Azelf. Most special Azelf imo should be running Nasty Plot/Psychic/Flamethrower (Fire Blast)/Shadow Ball. +2 Shadow Ball mauls all of those.

I might write more at another time but I agree with the stuff on Kyurem completely, it just has way too much raw power to even brute through its checks with the right moves.

What I will say about Sableye is it's presence alone pretty much made me change my item on Cobalion to Lum Berry. Indeed this is probably the best actual answer to Sableye is to use something that baits it in with combination of a Lum Berry. It's a pretty predictable answer too, and also really needs to work with a cleric to heal the burn later a 2nd time.

 

[EonX]

Olly, um, I even show that bulky Ghosts and Psychics aren't the best answers to Azelf in a response to someone else who said using Psychics is generally ok. I even address that Knock Off screws all of them in the post you quoted, especially if Azelf is Banded or mixed Life Orb. The most common NP Azelf I see is NP, Psyshock, Fire Blast / Flamethrower, Grass Knot. I mean, I guess Shadow Ball is usable if you hate Cress, but Grass Knot slams Rhyperior, Slowking, and Jellicent, the latter two of which are targets of Shadow Ball. Besides, outside of Cress, most Psychics take a crapton from +2 Fire Blast anyway. Not trying to sound like an ass, but I just felt you questioned what I was saying without reading my full post, or even an earlier response of mine to a similar question.

 

[Olly]

Olly, um, I even show that bulky Ghosts and Psychics aren't the best answers to Azelf in a response to someone else who said using Psychics is generally ok. I even address that Knock Off screws all of them in the post you quoted, especially if Azelf is Banded or mixed Life Orb. The most common NP Azelf I see is NP, Psyshock, Fire Blast / Flamethrower, Grass Knot. I mean, I guess Shadow Ball is usable if you hate Cress, but Grass Knot slams Rhyperior, Slowking, and Jellicent, the latter two of which are targets of Shadow Ball. Besides, outside of Cress, most Psychics take a crapton from +2 Fire Blast anyway. Not trying to sound like an ass, but I just felt you questioned what I was saying without reading my full post, or even an earlier response of mine to a similar question.

No problem. I wasn't trying to be aggressive either, more suggestive. It's not always easy to get your tone across on a forum ;).

Are there any real merits to running Psyshock over Psychic in RU? There's no pink blobs or hugely specially defensive behemoths that merit it to my eyes.

 

[aVocado]

No problem. I wasn't trying to be aggressive either, more suggestive. It's not always easy to get your tone across on a forum ;).

Are there any real merits to running Psyshock over Psychic in RU? There's no pink blobs or hugely specially defensive behemoths that merit it to my eyes.

It hits Milotic, SpD Kyurem, and AV users like Hitmonchan or some shit better.

 

[Srn]

In regards to the bans,

I personally believe kyurem is pretty easy to handle, but my opinion isn't too valid for a few reasons:
1. I have only run stall so far in the RU metagame, and Kyurem is not a threat i'm too worried about. Registeel+Lickilicky is MORE than enough for this pokemon and anything it really wants to do. So I can't see why kyurem is so good because, from my personal experiences, I just haven't had any problems with it.

Sableye, haha, oh boy. This thing is SOOO good, get it out of RU. My stall was pretty strong with this guy aboard, but it has to go. Priority burns and healing is just dumb.

For those who say sableye is an auto-win or something against stall, its really not (again, subjective). From my personal experience, (which is only 1 battle), the sableye couldn't really touch my moltres. It's a Sub-Toxic Moltres (whose set I believe was posted earlier in the thread by me), so it really doesn't mind too much about the loss of lefties, and I could just smack it with a few flamethrowers every time it taunted, which did about 40%.
While it was really annoying, I finally remembered to lay down fucking toxic spikes, and bye bye sableye. It was as easy as that.

However, this gem encrusted piece of poop should go. It's too good against too many playstyles.

As for Azelf, I would be extremely happy to see it gone. It is soundly shut down by Drapion on my team, but none the less, it is extremely strong and difficult to handle otherwise. NP sets in particular are super scary, drapion needs to be totally healthy to deal with those. It gets hazards, has better offensive stats than most of the entire tier, is faster than a lot of the tier, and has a treasure trove of options for moves. Way too good for RU, pls ban.

A threat I would like to see gone ASAP is Raikou. This guy is super fast, decently strong, and actually quite bulky too. He has a range of viable movesets, and even ebelt to feint the popular scarf set. The Specs set is particular is really frightening. Any ground type I can muster (bar camerupt) dies to a predicted hp grass or ice, of which there is no really safe way to scout. It just throws volt switches around since I don't have a solid ground, and it wears my team down more than anything else. Its combination of power and speed is far too much for the tier imo, and it really needs to be replaced with something less threatening like Jolteon. Why the hell is jolteon getting more usage than this beast anyway?

No problem. I wasn't trying to be aggressive either, more suggestive. It's not always easy to get your tone across on a forum ;).

Are there any real merits to running Psyshock over Psychic in RU? There's no pink blobs or hugely specially defensive behemoths that merit it to my eyes.

Ahem, aromatisse and Lickilicky are pink blobs that are both EXTREMELY good in the tier as special walls atm.
Since lickilicky has better mixed bulk (which is why I prefer it) there isn't much of a difference in terms of damage, but for sp. def aromatisse:

252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 218-257 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 144-172 (35.4 - 42.3%) -- 87.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The difference in damage is crucial.

 

[rob.]

Sableye has the ability to almost single-handedly shut down dedicated stall teams and is the #1 nemesis of most trick room users in the tier, through the use of taunt. Its use of knock off effectively cripples the opponents defensive threats who depend on their items (eviolite & assault vest holders). Prankster Will-o-Wisp cripples physical attackers who hope to OHKO, 2HKO, or stretch for a 3HKO. After being burned they will be crushed by foul play. Or even a switch to one of its defensive teammates. Did I mention how it can continuously take hits because of recover and thanks to Prankster it will move first almost all of the time.

Calcs from a few notable physical threats (could add more but there are so many)
252 Atk burned Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 64-76 (21 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb burned Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 110-131 (36.1 - 43%) -- 96.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb burned Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 74-88 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk burned Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 59-69 (19.4 - 22.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Stall and Physical attackers have no hope. NO HOPE.

Sableye is a nuisance that every team must prepare for either through a fairy coverage move or a fairy typed pokemon or magic coat everything.