Duo Destruction XY

[sparktrain]

PerishTrap Seel + Pivot Foongus

Seel @ Eviolite
Ability: Hydration
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 236 Def / 36 SpD
Bold Nature
- Whirlpool
- Perish Song
- Rain Dance
- Rest

Foongus @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 124 HP / 160 Def / 160 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

SCENARIO 1

Scenario 1
Turn 1: Seel switches into Koffing. Koffing uses some shit ass move.
0 SpA Koffing Clear Smog vs. 236 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Seel: 4-6 (15.3 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Seel: 2-3 (7.6 - 11.5%) -- possible 9HKO
Turn 2: Seel uses Whirpool. Koffing attacks again. Koffing is trapped.
Turn 3: Seel uses Perish Song. Koffing uses another lame move. Perish Count is now 3.
Turn 4: Seel uses Rain Dance. Koffing attacks. Perish Count is now 2. Hydration heals Seel's possible burn from WoW.
Turn 5: Seel uses Rest and is restored to full health. Koffing attacks. Perish count is now 1. Seel wakes up thanks to Hydration.
Turn 6: Seel switches to Foongus. Koffing attacks. Koffing's Perish Count falls to 0, Koffing faints. Lickitung is sent out.
0 SpA Koffing Clear Smog vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 4-6 (16 - 24%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus in Rain: 4-6 (16 - 24%) -- possible 5HKO
Turn 7: Lickitung uses some shit ass move. Foongus uses Spore.
0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 5-6 (20 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Turn 8: Foongus switches to Seel (and gains back health it lost with Regenerator). Lickitung is fast asleep. The rain stops.
Turn 9: Seel uses Whirpool. Lickitung maybe wakes up and attacks, doesn't matter really. Lickitung is trapped.
0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Seel: 4-5 (15.3 - 19.2%) -- possible 6HKO
Turn 10: Seel uses Perish Song. Lickitung (probably) attacks. Perish Count is now 3.
Turn 11: Seel uses Rain Dance. Lickitung attacks. Perish Count is now 2.
Turn 12: Seel uses Rest and is restored to full health. Lickitung attacks. Perish count is now 1. Seel wakes up thanks to Hydration.
Turn 13: Seel switches to Foongus. Lickitung attacks. Lickitung's Perish Count falls to 0, Lickitung faints. DUO DESTROYED.

SCENARIO 2

Scenario 2
Turn 1: Seel switches into Lickitung. Lickitung uses some shit ass move.
0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Seel: 4-5 (15.3 - 19.2%) -- possible 6HKO
Turn 2: Seel uses Whirpool. Lickitung attacks again. Lickitung is trapped.
Turn 3: Seel uses Perish Song. Lickitung uses another lame move (Protect doesn't stop Perish Song). Perish Count is now 3.
Turn 4: Seel uses Rain Dance. Lickitung attacks. Perish Count is now 2.
Turn 5: Seel uses Rest and is restored to full health. Lickitung attacks. Perish count is now 1. Seel wakes up thanks to Hydration.
Turn 6: Seel switches to Foongus. Lickitung attacks. Lickitung's Perish Count falls to 0, Lickitung faints. Koffing is sent out.
0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 5-6 (20 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Turn 7: Koffing uses some shit ass move. Foongus uses Spore.
0 SpA Koffing Clear Smog vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Foongus: 6-7 (24 - 28%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Foongus in Rain: 6-8 (24 - 32%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Koffing Clear Smog vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 4-6 (16 - 24%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus in Rain: 4-6 (16 - 24%) -- possible 5HKO
Turn 8: Foongus switches to Seel (and gains back health it lost with Regenerator). Koffing is fast asleep. The rain stops.
Turn 9: Seel uses Whirpool. Koffing maybe wakes up and attacks, doesn't matter really. Koffing is trapped.
0 SpA Koffing Clear Smog vs. 236 HP / 36 SpD Seel: 6-7 (23 - 26.9%) -- 2.2% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 36 SpD Seel: 3-4 (11.5 - 15.3%) -- possible 7HKO
0 SpA Koffing Clear Smog vs. 236 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Seel: 4-6 (15.3 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Seel: 2-3 (7.6 - 11.5%) -- possible 9HKO
Turn 10: Seel uses Perish Song. Koffing (probably) attacks. Perish Count is now 3.
Turn 11: Seel uses Rain Dance. Koffing attacks. Perish Count is now 2.
Turn 12: Seel uses Rest and is restored to full health. Koffing attacks. Perish count is now 1. Seel wakes up thanks to Hydration.
Turn 13: Seel switches to Foongus. Koffing attacks. Koffing's Perish Count falls to 0, Koffing faints. DUO DESTROYED.

Basically, the duo can't do anything to Seel, Seel PerishTraps them to death, and HydraRest/Regenerator help keep Seel and Foongus in top condition. Great answer.

is seel gud

 

[Max Carvalho]

Misdreavus @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 240 Spatk / 240 Spd
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Will-o-Wisp
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Nasty Plot

Nasty Wisp Missy is a check to this core, due to do its combination of bulk and power, vs lickitung, it can wisp it, then nasty plot and power through or burn it again if needed be. Vs Koffing it can just nasty plot and make it even easier, as koffing is poor at stopping set up from non-physical sweepers.

Misdreavus can't switch into Lickitung, Knock Off is a 2HKO. Lickitung then will slowly KO Misdreavus. Misdreavus isn't a real counter to this duo as it would never switch into Lickitung.

 

[Ecna]

Okay, now time for a non-retarded post regarding Cranidos

Duo Breaker (Cranidos) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
Level: 5
EVs: 140 HP / 236 Atk / 116 Def
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Superpower

After some brainstorming, I found out that Cranidos DOES indeed defeat a duo of Lickitung + Koffing all by itself. Here are some scenarios.

VS. Koffing
Cranidos is able to switch into any of Koffing's different attacks. Both Clear Smog and Fire Blast both do around 20% to Cranidos. If Cranidos gets Burned, he has a Lum Berry. Use Substitute as the Koffing tries to use Will-O-Wisp, then set up two Swords Dances (you may need another substitute). Use Earthquake on Koffing, then use Superpower on Lickitung.

+2 236+ Atk Mold Breaker Cranidos Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 22-28 (104.7 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Koffing Clear Smog vs. 140 HP / 0 SpD Cranidos: 3-5 (12 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO

0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. 140 HP / 0 SpD Cranidos: 5-6 (20 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO


VS. Lickitung
This one is simpler. Switch in on any move that Lickitung can use (Boosted Knock Off only does around 30%). Have Cranidos use Swords Dance twice. Use Superpower on Lickitung, then use Earthquake on Koffing.

+3 236 Atk Cranidos Superpower vs. 196 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 44-52 (157.1 - 185.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 140 HP / 116 Def Cranidos: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 10% chance to 3HKO

You use two swords dances because a +1 Earthquake (after Superpower) only has a 6.3% chance of KOing Koffing.

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-138433592
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-138434105

These replays don't use Superpower, but Stone Edge is also an option over Superpower (although it misses quite a bit)

 

[Rowan]

kingmidas.

Hide

turn1:
Missy switching into Lickitung's Knock Off:
0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-14 (45.4 - 63.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
(10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14)

turn2:
missy burns
0 Atk burned Lickitung Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 5-7 (22.7 - 31.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 10)
turn 3:
missy HP fighting
236 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 8-10 (28.5 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Licki Knocks off for the KO

not a counter.

@Flamer

Hide

turn1:
timburr switches in to Koffing's Fire Blast
0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 5-7 (20.8 - 29.1%) -- 81.1% chance to 4HKO
(5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7)

turn2:
timburr can't bulk up because of clear smog
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
(5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6)
Koffing Fire Blasts

koffing is at 16HP, timburr at 10-14 HP (most likely 12)

Koffing will KO in 2 more hits if you knock off, 3 more hits if you drain punch. If you drain punch over 3 turns, koffing will be left with 1-6HP, whilst Timburr will be dead.

not a counter

@aaron's aron

Hide

turn 1, omanyte switches into Koffing's will-o-wisp, omanyte loses 2HP
Koffing full health, omanyte 19hp

turn2:
omanyte uses surf, koffing uses clear smog (the safest move to prevent set up)
196+ SpA Omanyte Surf vs. 36 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Koffing: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
0 SpA Koffing Clear Smog vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 2-3 (9.5 - 14.2%) -- possible 5HKO after burn damage
(2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3)

taking the average (mode) roll, koffing is at 11 HP, omanyte is at 15 after burn.

turn3:
omanyte uses surf, koffing uses pain split
since Koffing has an 88% chance to survive 2 surfs it will probably be at 1 HP so Pain Split will leave Oma+Koffing at 8 HP each. omanyte will be at 6HP by the end of the turn.

turn4:
omanyte KOs, it's now at 4HP after burn. Pretty sure it's safe to say Lickitung wins at this point.

alternatively, omanyte can set up Shell Smash on turn 3, whilst Koffing uses Pain Split. This will leave Koffing and Omanyte at 13 HP, omanyte at 11 after a burn. Omanyte will KO koffing next turn, leaving it at 9HP after burn.
However, Lickitung does 6-8 Damage with Knock Off when Omanyte is at -1, whilst +2 Surf is only a 2HKO, leaving Omanyte still pretty likely to lose in this situation.
Not to mention the prediction of Shell Smashing when Koffing used Clear Smog on turn 2 is pretty bold, and if you Smash, whilst Koffing Clear Smogs, you're screwed. it's a risky play and it's not too likely to occur. Basically Omanyte will lose if it switches into Koffing's Will-o-Wisp.

not a counter.

Loving Cranidos Ecna. Alphose_Elric, Scraggy needs Shed Skin luck, but even if it takes a few turns, Scraggy should still be able to win, it'll just be at low health when it does so, thanks to Sub not having a high chance to break. I like it.

 

[Punchshroom]

So....what can this core even do to Larvesta?

Larvesta @ Eviolite
Ability: Flame Body
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 156 Def / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
- U-turn
- Flare Blitz

calcs

0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast on a critical hit vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Larvesta: 9-11 (39.13 - 47.82%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11)
236+ Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 9-12 (42.85 - 57.14%) -- 12.11% chance to 2HKO (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)

0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off on a critical hit vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Larvesta: 7-9 (30.43 - 39.13%) -- 88.13% chance to 3HKO (7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
236+ Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs. 196 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 12-15 (42.85 - 53.57%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO (12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15)

Even with Stealth Rock in play, Larvesta feasibly switches in on them, then proceeds to burn the shit out of them. Putting aside Will-O-Wisp's superior PP, Lickitung cannot even attack Larvesta without the risk of getting burned, which means that Heal Belling against Larvesta goes from an uphill battle to a landslide disadvantage. Larvesta also packs enough power to threaten 2HKOes on both of them, which is really easy to attain due to burns.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Hide

turn 1, omanyte switches into Koffing's will-o-wisp, omanyte loses 2HP
Koffing full health, omanyte 19hp

turn2:
omanyte uses surf, koffing uses clear smog (the safest move to prevent set up)
196+ SpA Omanyte Surf vs. 36 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Koffing: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
0 SpA Koffing Clear Smog vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 2-3 (9.5 - 14.2%) -- possible 5HKO after burn damage
(2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3)

taking the average (mode) roll, koffing is at 11 HP, omanyte is at 15 after burn.

turn3:
omanyte uses surf, koffing uses pain split
since Koffing has an 88% chance to survive 2 surfs it will probably be at 1 HP so Pain Split will leave Oma+Koffing at 8 HP each. omanyte will be at 6HP by the end of the turn.

turn4:
omanyte KOs, it's now at 4HP after burn. Pretty sure it's safe to say Lickitung wins at this point.

alternatively, omanyte can set up Shell Smash on turn 3, whilst Koffing uses Pain Split. This will leave Koffing and Omanyte at 13 HP, omanyte at 11 after a burn. Omanyte will KO koffing next turn, leaving it at 9HP after burn.
However, Lickitung does 6-8 Damage with Knock Off when Omanyte is at -1, whilst +2 Surf is only a 2HKO, leaving Omanyte still pretty likely to lose in this situation.
Not to mention the prediction of Shell Smashing when Koffing used Clear Smog on turn 2 is pretty bold, and if you Smash, whilst Koffing Clear Smogs, you're screwed. it's a risky play and it's not too likely to occur. Basically Omanyte will lose if it switches into Koffing's Will-o-Wisp.

">

Hide

turn 1, omanyte switches into Koffing's will-o-wisp, omanyte loses 2HP
Koffing full health, omanyte 19hp

turn2:
omanyte uses surf, koffing uses clear smog (the safest move to prevent set up)
196+ SpA Omanyte Surf vs. 36 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Koffing: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
0 SpA Koffing Clear Smog vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 2-3 (9.5 - 14.2%) -- possible 5HKO after burn damage
(2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3)

taking the average (mode) roll, koffing is at 11 HP, omanyte is at 15 after burn.

turn3:
omanyte uses surf, koffing uses pain split
since Koffing has an 88% chance to survive 2 surfs it will probably be at 1 HP so Pain Split will leave Oma+Koffing at 8 HP each. omanyte will be at 6HP by the end of the turn.

turn4:
omanyte KOs, it's now at 4HP after burn. Pretty sure it's safe to say Lickitung wins at this point.

alternatively, omanyte can set up Shell Smash on turn 3, whilst Koffing uses Pain Split. This will leave Koffing and Omanyte at 13 HP, omanyte at 11 after a burn. Omanyte will KO koffing next turn, leaving it at 9HP after burn.
However, Lickitung does 6-8 Damage with Knock Off when Omanyte is at -1, whilst +2 Surf is only a 2HKO, leaving Omanyte still pretty likely to lose in this situation.
Not to mention the prediction of Shell Smashing when Koffing used Clear Smog on turn 2 is pretty bold, and if you Smash, whilst Koffing Clear Smogs, you're screwed. it's a risky play and it's not too likely to occur. Basically Omanyte will lose if it switches into Koffing's Will-o-Wisp.

Yes, but you are also saying the Koffing correctly predicts every single move you make, and that isn't to likely. And the odds of it pulling off those moves without you getting Shell Smash up is not very good...

[Rowan]

If I had a Koffing vs. burned Omanyte I'd 100% use Clear Smog in that situation. Turn 2 isn't a prediction, you cannot shell smash there.

I already demonstrated in the latter part of the post that you still lose if koffing uses Pain Split and you Shell Smash on turn 3, due to Lickitung surviving a +2 hit

 

[Aaron's Aron]

If I had a Koffing vs. burned Omanyte I'd 100% use Clear Smog in that situation. Turn 2 isn't a prediction, you cannot shell smash there.

I already demonstrated in the latter part of the post that you still lose if koffing uses Pain Split and you Shell Smash on turn 3, due to Lickitung surviving a +2 hit

Yes, but if you spam Clear Smog then you die to Surf because you can't Pain Split. Honestly, I don't know if it loses enough to be disproved, but I do agree that if you predict well when it comes in on Will-O-Wisp it won't win 100% of the time.

 

[Rowan]

Yes, but if you spam Clear Smog then you die to Surf because you can't Pain Split. Honestly, I don't know if it loses enough to be disproved, but I do agree that if you predict well when it comes in on Will-O-Wisp it won't win 100% of the time.

turn 3, koffing uses clear smog, omanyte uses surf.

koffing is at like 2 hp, omanyte will be at 11 after clear smog and burn.

I'd like to see an 11HP burned omanyte beat a full health eviolite lickitung...

 

[kingmidas]

turn 3, koffing uses clear smog, omanyte uses surf.

koffing is at like 2 hp, omanyte will be at 11 after clear smog and burn.

I'd like to see an 11HP burned omanyte beat a full health eviolite lickitung...

check to see if it learns focus blast imo.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

turn 3, koffing uses clear smog, omanyte uses surf.

koffing is at like 2 hp, omanyte will be at 11 after clear smog and burn.

I'd like to see an 11HP burned omanyte beat a full health eviolite lickitung...

I suppose... I still think it is a fairly good check though, even if it doesn't win 100% of the time. But I see your point, and you are right. If Omanyte comes in on Will-O-Wisp it most likely will not win against this core.

New Move: Substitute

Omanyte can make great use of the game against the rest of the meta, enabling it to set up better and take hits. This is especially true as it is good at forcing switches. Omanyte doesn't miss Ice Beam to much either. It already hits Ground-types super effectively with Surf, Flying-types are frail and Archen is weak to Surf anyways, and Dragon-types are practically non-existent but are hit hard by Earth Power. The only thing it misses Ice Beam on are Grass-types, but if they are already weakened or KOd Omanyte can break through them.

As for this core, Omanyte can use it to set up on Koffing, because it blocks Clear Smog's stat clearance effect and has no where near enough power to break through the Substitute. With this move Omanyte becomes a reliable counter to this core, even if switching in on Will-O-Wisp.

 

[fitzy72]

Natu (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 204 HP / 244 Def / 60 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Psychic
- Feather Dance

Koffing you destroy.

0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 244+ Def Eviolite Natu: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

-2 0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off vs. 204 HP / 244+ Def Natu: 6-8 (26 - 34.7%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

+6 0 SpA Natu Psychic vs. 196 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 18-22 (64.2 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Set up and destroy

 

[apt-get]

I suppose... I still think it is a fairly good check though, even if it doesn't win 100% of the time. But I see your point, and you are right. If Omanyte comes in on Will-O-Wisp it most likely will not win against this core.

New Move: Substitute

Omanyte can make great use of the game against the rest of the meta, enabling it to set up better and take hits. This is especially true as it is good at forcing switches. Omanyte doesn't miss Ice Beam to much either. It already hits Ground-types super effectively with Surf, Flying-types are frail and Archen is weak to Surf anyways, and Dragon-types are practically non-existent but are hit hard by Earth Power. The only thing it misses Ice Beam on are Grass-types, but if they are already weakened or KOd Omanyte can break through them.

As for this core, Omanyte can use it to set up on Koffing, because it blocks Clear Smog's stat clearance effect and has no where near enough power to break through the Substitute. With this move Omanyte becomes a reliable counter to this core, even if switching in on Will-O-Wisp.

Turn 1: you switch in, Koffing Will-O-Wisps, koffing full health, omanyte 19HP
Turn 2: you sub, koffing clear smogs, (koff 4HKOes sub), omanyte 12, koffing full
Turn 3: you shell smash, koffing clear smogs again, only one hit left and sub is gone, omanyte 10, koffing full
Turn 4: you surf, koffing clear smogs, sub is gone, omanyte 8, koffing near death
Turn 5: you surf, koffing is dead, omanyte 6HP

Omanyte can't do anything at +2 to a full health lickitung

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Turn 1: you switch in, Koffing Will-O-Wisps, koffing full health, omanyte 19HP
Turn 2: you sub, koffing clear smogs, (koff 4HKOes sub), omanyte 12, koffing full
Turn 3: you shell smash, koffing clear smogs again, only one hit left and sub is gone, omanyte 10, koffing full
Turn 4: you surf, koffing clear smogs, sub is gone, omanyte 8, koffing near death
Turn 5: you surf, koffing is dead, omanyte 6HP

Omanyte can't do anything at +2 to a full health lickitung

My bad, I was thinking Surf OHKOd Koffing at +2.

If you use Hydro Pump that has a 100% chance to OHKO Koffing at +2. This means that Omanyte will take one less turn of burn damage and still have its Sub up against Lickitung. So there we go, now Omanyte for sure counters this core!

 

[tcr]

Still not even. Lickitung just protects then wishstalls you to death.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Still not even. Lickitung just protects then wishstalls you to death.

Why you guys do this to me...? -_-

Just don't switch into Will-O-Wisp lol. I guess you guys win, it is disproved.

 

[Rocketpro8717]

I'll try this i guess

Item: Focus Sash
Ability: Flash Fire
Nature: Calm
EVs: Spd 208, Spe 144, Spa 156
Protect
Psychic
Shadow Ball
Overheat

Here is how it goes.
Switch in to litwick while koffing is in.
Koffing uses fire blast and litwick eats that up with flash fire
Litwick will outspeed and use psychic to kill.
Lickitung comes out and he is the real threat.
Litwick goes for an overheat to bring lickitung down a lot of health.
Lickitung goes for knock off but my focus sash keeps litwick alive.
Litwick goes for one more overheat to kill. ( I think I'm not good with calculations )

 

[Rocketpro8717]

I forgot my pokemon is litwick lol

 

[Aaron's Aron]

I'll try this i guess

Item: Focus Sash
Ability: Flash Fire
Nature: Calm
EVs: Spd 208, Spe 144, Spa 156
Protect
Psychic
Shadow Ball
Overheat

Here is how it goes.
Switch in to litwick while koffing is in.
Koffing uses fire blast and litwick eats that up with flash fire
Litwick will outspeed and use psychic to kill.
Lickitung comes out and he is the real threat.
Litwick goes for an overheat to bring lickitung down a lot of health.
Lickitung goes for knock off but my focus sash keeps litwick alive.
Litwick goes for one more overheat to kill. ( I think I'm not good with calculations )

For this to work though, you have to be able to switch into any move from either Pokemon. Litwick can't switch into Knock Off from Lickitung.

Also, Litwick does not even come close to 2HKOing Lickitung with Overheat. Realize that the second Overheat will be much weaker as well. These calcs don't use your 156 SpA, but 236 SpA instead. You can use this for calcs.

236+ SpA Litwick Overheat vs. 176 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 9-12 (33.3 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 236+ SpA Litwick Overheat vs. 176 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
-1 236+ SpA Litwick Overheat vs. 176 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 7-9 (25.9 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
+1 236+ SpA Litwick Fire Blast vs. 176 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 12-15 (44.4 - 55.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

 

[Amp Pharaohs]

Vullaby can take advantage of this core and even set up in the end.

Vullaby @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SpA / 236 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Roost
- Taunt
- Nasty Plot

Basically, it Taunts Koffing so it can't Pain Split (at some point), and Roosts off any damage from Clear Smog and Fire Blast, whilst slowly KOing with Dark Pulse. Meanwhile, it sets up in Lickitungs face with Nasty Plot, and 2HKOing at +4. Wins even with opposing SR, and outspeds both sets.

Relevant Calcs:
Vs. Lickitung
0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 2-3 (8.6 - 13%) -- possible 8HKO

+4 236+ SpA Vullaby Dark Pulse vs. 196 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 15-18 (53.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs. Koffing
0 SpA Koffing Clear Smog vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 4-6 (17.3 - 26%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 5-6 (21.7 - 26%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

236+ SpA Vullaby Dark Pulse vs. 36 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Koffing: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If SR is up and you switch into Will-O-Wisp (worst circumstance) vullaby will be at 16 HP turn 1
Could put these in hide tags if its too ugly.

Sample Scenario (without Dark Pulse Flinch, which puts it in favour of Vullaby from the start)
Fire Blast + Burn Damage does 7 damage per turn, whilst Clear Smog+Burn does 6 per turn and prevents set up on Vullabys part. Vullaby can Dark Pulse turn 1, taking Koffing down to 14 and Vullaby will be at 9 in worst case. Vullaby can then Roost to be at 13 HP in worst case (Fire Blast) It can safely Taunt Pain Split, as Koffing must use it to survive two Dark Pulses, putting Vullaby at 11 HP and Koffing at 14. Vullaby Dark Pulses, takes Koffing down to 7 HP and Vullaby to is now at 4 HP. Vullaby KOs and has 2 HP left. Roosts on Lickitung and takes 2 damages from Lickitung, it is now at 9 HP after Burn. Sets up Nasty Plot and Lickitung can't even come close to winning anymore and proceeds to 2HKO at +4, meaning it goes until Lickitung Flinches even if he predicts the attack and Wishtects.

If Vullaby gets a Flinch at any point, then its won already basically, similar cases with Fire Blast miss from Koffing. Vullaby could also risk setting up, and force Koffing into using he slightly weaker Clear Smog.

 

[Goldland]

My proposition to deal with this core, would be a somekind of different Abra set, as a wall breaker.

Abra @ Expert Belt
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Def / 236 SpA
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- Counter
- Taunt
- Encore

236 SpA Expert Belt Abra Psychic vs. 36 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Koffing: 22-29 (104.7 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO -> nothing much to say about koffing other than that he has no chance of surviving expert belt Abra.

0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Abra: 14-18 (73.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-> Against Lickitung, i choose bold nature abra with full evs in order to survive the Knock Off and Counter at first turn, dealing 28-36 damage to Lickitung, which is the same as saying that he gets 1HKO.
If Lickitung doesn't Knock off at first turn, he'll be Encored+taunted and struggle + psychic to death.

 

[Rowan]

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Heatproof
Level: 5
EVs: 220 HP / 68 Def / 84 SpA / 92 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Iron Defense
- Psyshock

Bronzor switch in to Licki's Knock Off,

0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 220 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 10)

worst case scenario you lose 10HP, so you're at 15.

Turn 2, iron defense, Licki Knocks Off

0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off vs. +2 220 HP / 68 Def Bronzor: 4-6 (16 - 24%) -- possible 5HKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 6)

worst case scenario you're at 9HP.

turn 3, Iron Defense again (same rolls for Licki) so worst case scenario you're at 3HP.

turn 4, Rest and wait

after waking up you can Iron Defense again, after which point you can start using CM
0 Atk Lickitung Knock Off vs. +6 220 HP / 68 Def Bronzor: 2-4 (8 - 16%) -- possible 7HKO
(2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 4)

+5 84 SpA Bronzor Psyshock vs. 236 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 15-18 (53.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)

+5 guarantees the 2HKO. Timid means you outspeed Licki so it's easy win

Koffing is easier cos of Heatproof
0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Heatproof Bronzor: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 10)
0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. +1 220 HP / 0 SpD Heatproof Bronzor: 6-8 (24 - 32%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
(6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 8)
0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. +2 220 HP / 0 SpD Heatproof Bronzor: 4-6 (16 - 24%) -- possible 5HKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 6)
0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. +6 220 HP / 0 SpD Heatproof Bronzor: 2-4 (8 - 16%) -- possible 7HKO
(2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 4)

Calm mind up, easy win. again, you outspeed thanks to timid. +1 Bronzor avoid the 4hko, whilst +2 makes it too difficult for Koffing. Keep boosting till you get to +5 if you like. You need +5 to guarantee the OHKO. Don't attack till you get to +5 cos otherwise pain split is a bitch.


Goldland, read the OP you need to be able to switch into EVERY SINGLE one of the duos moves and win, you can't switch into Knock Off from Lickitung so you lose. Infact Koffing can use Fire Blast and weaken you enough for Licki's Knock Off to KO, after you kill Koffing with Psychic

 

[Goldland]

Goldland, read the OP you need to be able to switch into EVERY SINGLE one of the duos moves and win, you can't switch into Knock Off from Lickitung so you lose. Infact Koffing can use Fire Blast and weaken you enough for Licki's Knock Off to KO, after you kill Koffing with Psychic

Oh right, my bad, i was thinking about 1 vs 2 at start, and didn't see that rule at bottom of the post. I guess that rule should be in rule section and not at the very end of the post xd.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

Oh right, my bad, i was thinking about 1 vs 2 at start, and didn't see that rule at bottom of the post. I guess that rule should be in rule section and not at the very end of the post xd.

It actually shouldn't, as it's much less of a rule more than just general knowledge of what a counter is supposed to do. Scoring comes later today guys, so keep submitting sets and disproving others :]

 

[Lord Alphose]

I don't need to disprove others because I'm God.
I still disagree with the Timburr being a counter to these two sets for this specific reason: Knock Off. If necessary, a Fighting-type will be your first switch into a Knock Off, just so we all know that I'm not crazy for starting like this.

Turn 1: Timburr switches into Knock Off. Frankly, damage dealt by it is negligible, as Drain Punch will effortlessly bring Timburr back up to full health next turn.
Turn 2: Timburr uses Drain Punch, as it outspeeds Lickitung. It deals 14 damage. Lickitung Knock Offs back, dealing 2 damage.
Turn 3: Timburr uses Drain Punch, KOing Lickitung and cleanly restoring the rest of its HP. Koffing now switches in on a full health, no item Timburr.

Now things start to get interesting. You see, you can win this if you're against a retard who's going to use Will-O-Wisp on a Guts Timburr. If so, you could honestly counter this pair with a Magikarp. However, the best move for a smart opponent at this point is Fire Blast, wanting flat damage.

The rest of the match: If your opponent chooses to go for Fire Blasting you over and over, you'll lose. Simply because you are out damaged. If you use Bulk up on the first turn, you still won't have the damage to take out Koffing by the time it takes you out. Koffing goin' beat you. Timburr is not a counter.

mah calcs

0 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Timburr: 8-10 (33.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Koffing: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO