I know, I was never doubting that, I'm just saying it can sorta deal with other stuff, but yeah, diancie isn't as good anymore :(
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np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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Hah, Togekiss gets a BL round. I knew it would all along.
Good riddance to GeoPass though, I hate that strategy, though I had a few matches using it just to get a taste of what using GeoPass+Espeon would be like.
Victini getting banned is kinda justified since it's always been pretty ridiculous and strong. Darmanitan, Entei, and Arcanine will love this. My Krookodile and Kingdra won't like this so much though.
Lol Diancie, it kinda sucks now that it can't check Toge and Victini anymore, I kind of want it to stay UU though because I still want a reason to use ROCK WITH EYES down in lower tiers.
Oh well, I see the reason behind all of these bans from my own experiences and they were all deserving imo, but let's see!
Good riddance to GeoPass though, I hate that strategy, though I had a few matches using it just to get a taste of what using GeoPass+Espeon would be like.
Victini getting banned is kinda justified since it's always been pretty ridiculous and strong. Darmanitan, Entei, and Arcanine will love this. My Krookodile and Kingdra won't like this so much though.
Lol Diancie, it kinda sucks now that it can't check Toge and Victini anymore, I kind of want it to stay UU though because I still want a reason to use ROCK WITH EYES down in lower tiers.
Oh well, I see the reason behind all of these bans from my own experiences and they were all deserving imo, but let's see!
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Dangit, I built all my teams around Victini and now it's gone. At the bright side though, I SEE FLARE BLITZES EVERYWHEEEEEEERE!!!!!
It's a pretty weird idea, but I'll probably see more Rhyperior usage as it can once more wall dem physical fire types.
I already miss my dear rodent.
Buuuuut.... UU is gonna be fun.
EDIT: There's still hope, Victini's still getting a retest ñ_ñ
It's a pretty weird idea, but I'll probably see more Rhyperior usage as it can once more wall dem physical fire types.
I already miss my dear rodent.
Buuuuut.... UU is gonna be fun.
EDIT: There's still hope, Victini's still getting a retest ñ_ñ
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Is it weird that I actually expected that Victini would get banned? I thought this since Slowbro moved to OU.
Bro doesn't really wall Tini, so... yeah.
Welp that was deserved. It wasn't even the sheer power Victini brought to the table, moreso the fact that it only needed 2 moves to 2HKO the entire tier barring swampert, gastrodon (lol) rhyperior and diancie. Mixed LO was insane as well, no counters at all. This'll make teambuilding a lot easier, since you no longer need a "victini check".
Adding to what LiberalLucario started hinting at,
What I find to be more curious about the Victini banwhich in my opinion was overdue come BW2 than the hole Darmanitan, Arcanine, and Entei are left to fill, is the effect that its removal will have on more passive playstyles. Having already lost Heracross adds to this even further.
Passive and defensive playstyles were never not-viable when Victini and Heracross were around, even before I left. Victini's mild unpredictability and sheer power regardless of set usually meant a lot of guesswork for defensive teams, potentially leading to something dying if you didn't have a dedicated Victini check (which was usually a sure sign of a bad team). Heracross became an even bigger burden on former checks (read Cofagrigus) when Knock Off got its obscene buff too. Defensive teams had lost a lot of ground since XY started, as each generation brings a power creep, but it looks like some of that momentum is coming back. Now, just taking a quick glance at the Viability Ranking Thread, I can really see bulky offense take off even further, as there isn't as big of a burden to have such fat Pokemon on it now.
I'm not going to comment on Togekiss really. It was nearly unbearable last generation, and it sounds like it was as bad, if not worse this generation. Not really surprised there.
What I find to be more curious about the Victini ban
Passive and defensive playstyles were never not-viable when Victini and Heracross were around, even before I left. Victini's mild unpredictability and sheer power regardless of set usually meant a lot of guesswork for defensive teams, potentially leading to something dying if you didn't have a dedicated Victini check (which was usually a sure sign of a bad team). Heracross became an even bigger burden on former checks (read Cofagrigus) when Knock Off got its obscene buff too. Defensive teams had lost a lot of ground since XY started, as each generation brings a power creep, but it looks like some of that momentum is coming back. Now, just taking a quick glance at the Viability Ranking Thread, I can really see bulky offense take off even further, as there isn't as big of a burden to have such fat Pokemon on it now.
I'm not going to comment on Togekiss really. It was nearly unbearable last generation, and it sounds like it was as bad, if not worse this generation. Not really surprised there.
Yeah toge was real bad for the week or so it was here. And bulky offense should be even better as that "fire check" is now going to become much less "needed" per say, as long as you have something to take a flare blitz / sacred fire. Honestly though, bulky waters + grass type check + electric check will mean a really solid core for most teams. Crocune just got a hell of a lot better.
Definitely see Smeargle getting banned.
Can see why Victini and Togekiss being suspected, but I personally do not think they should get banned. Not gonna bother arguing because I made all my points about it the last suspect test in BW2, and it ended up staying anyways.
With these temp bans, expect to see more Mienshao's and Crobats. Mienshao lost so many checks and counters these last few weeks (Slowbro, Mew, and now Victini and Togekiss). And in return, Crobat will be used to check Mienshao and replace Togekiss as the best offensive defogger.
imo imo
Can see why Victini and Togekiss being suspected, but I personally do not think they should get banned. Not gonna bother arguing because I made all my points about it the last suspect test in BW2, and it ended up staying anyways.
With these temp bans, expect to see more Mienshao's and Crobats. Mienshao lost so many checks and counters these last few weeks (Slowbro, Mew, and now Victini and Togekiss). And in return, Crobat will be used to check Mienshao and replace Togekiss as the best offensive defogger.
imo imo
lol I never played XY UU. As long as they don't ban Geomancy from OU I'm fine :s
A few of us just noticed this on IRC tonight.
Crunch on Lucario is now essentially useless. Mew is gone. Slowbro is gone. Victini is gone (but there's a better option available that I'll mention very soon). Instead, Lucario can now run Earthquake, and simultaneously destroy Chandelure and Nidoqueen switch-ins (yes Iron Tail has merit against fairies and Weezing/other Ghost-types, but it misses a lot, and that's the extent of its use).
Besides Doublade or revenge killing it, what's supposed to stop SD Lucario once it's at +2? What I really noticed was that outside of Sableye's prankster Will-O-Wisp, there isn't anything that can handle Lucario in this meta right now. Not even super obscure checks like Weezing (+2 CC does >50%) or max/max Cofagrigus (+2 EQ does about 50% iirc) want to play around with a set up Lucario, especially if it runs Iron Tail over EQ (both are OHKO'd after SR iirc). Nothing can switch-in to that Lucario. The only things that beat it are Doublade, a Prankster Will-O-Wisp, using faster revenge killers that won't die to an Extremespeed (Scarf Chandelure / Cobalion), strong priority that will efficiently dispose of Lucario (CB Infernape's Mach Punch for example), or not letting it set up in the first place.
I don't know. This is just on paper. From the sounds of things, Lucario isn't the easiest thing to set up. It could be that it's late too, and I'm just missing something blatantly obvious. Just figured it might be worth discussing beyond IRC.
Crunch on Lucario is now essentially useless. Mew is gone. Slowbro is gone. Victini is gone (but there's a better option available that I'll mention very soon). Instead, Lucario can now run Earthquake, and simultaneously destroy Chandelure and Nidoqueen switch-ins (yes Iron Tail has merit against fairies and Weezing/other Ghost-types, but it misses a lot, and that's the extent of its use).
Besides Doublade or revenge killing it, what's supposed to stop SD Lucario once it's at +2? What I really noticed was that outside of Sableye's prankster Will-O-Wisp, there isn't anything that can handle Lucario in this meta right now. Not even super obscure checks like Weezing (+2 CC does >50%) or max/max Cofagrigus (+2 EQ does about 50% iirc) want to play around with a set up Lucario, especially if it runs Iron Tail over EQ (both are OHKO'd after SR iirc). Nothing can switch-in to that Lucario. The only things that beat it are Doublade, a Prankster Will-O-Wisp, using faster revenge killers that won't die to an Extremespeed (Scarf Chandelure / Cobalion), strong priority that will efficiently dispose of Lucario (CB Infernape's Mach Punch for example), or not letting it set up in the first place.
I don't know. This is just on paper. From the sounds of things, Lucario isn't the easiest thing to set up. It could be that it's late too, and I'm just missing something blatantly obvious. Just figured it might be worth discussing beyond IRC.
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There are a select few Pokemon that can live a +2 Close Combat - physically defensive Hippowdon and physically defensive Chesnaught come to mind, although both must be at upwards of 90% (after rocks!) to live a hit and KO back. Tentacruel can live a hit from about 75% and do over half with Scald after the drop as well as possibly burn it. Physically defensive Nidoqueen takes about 60%. Quagsire can't switch in on a Close Combat, but if it switches in on an SD it can beat it from about 60%.
Besides that, Chandelure can generally switch in safely as very few Lucario run Crunch still (they're still there for some reason though). It's generally better to find a Pokemon that can live a +2 Extremespeed or Bullet Punch like Cobalion, Jirachi, Banded Krookodile, etc.
Even better, maintain offensive pressure and don't give it a safe setup opportunity unless you have one of the above Pokemon at a safe amount of HP.
Besides that, Chandelure can generally switch in safely as very few Lucario run Crunch still (they're still there for some reason though). It's generally better to find a Pokemon that can live a +2 Extremespeed or Bullet Punch like Cobalion, Jirachi, Banded Krookodile, etc.
Even better, maintain offensive pressure and don't give it a safe setup opportunity unless you have one of the above Pokemon at a safe amount of HP.
On the topic of Lucario, I can see NP Luke being more common now that one of its biggest offensive check in Victini being gone, and it gets past some of its usual checks like Sableye, Gligar and Nidoqueen with +2 Flash Cannon, while dealing over half to offensive Mega Aero with a +2 Vacuum Wave.
BTW, guys, with the temporal departure of Victini in the tier, what are Blastoise and Nidoqueen speed creeping on now? Themselves? :^]
BTW, guys, with the temporal departure of Victini in the tier, what are Blastoise and Nidoqueen speed creeping on now? Themselves? :^]
I always figured you speed creeped for rose/support krook/defensive arcanine.
Queen gains very little from SpA evs so you can usually stop at 228 modest and dump the rest into speed/hp.
Sounds like a job for shedinja tbh.
Toge was more annoying, but itll be good to see howbdoes with its own retest. Nidos were decent checks to RK with LO sludge waves. Youd just have to watch out for speed invested toge and scarf (moreso in the case of king).
Thank goodness that smeargle got booted. I think its still going to be an issue with dual screens memento tailwind support with a QD set. Its essentially the same thing but it can go back to using sash vs. Power herb sigh.
kokoloko if the council determines smeargle to be broken, there will be no geomancy retest right? Its not like Xernas is dropping anytime soon lol
Regarding tini, this is going to be a huge shift. Rhyperior will be able to reclaim its niche as fire check to Arcanine, darm and entei. But, maybe well see sunnybeam arcanine to get around this?
Well see how this goes though....
Thank goodness that smeargle got booted. I think its still going to be an issue with dual screens memento tailwind support with a QD set. Its essentially the same thing but it can go back to using sash vs. Power herb sigh.
kokoloko if the council determines smeargle to be broken, there will be no geomancy retest right? Its not like Xernas is dropping anytime soon lol
Regarding tini, this is going to be a huge shift. Rhyperior will be able to reclaim its niche as fire check to Arcanine, darm and entei. But, maybe well see sunnybeam arcanine to get around this?
Well see how this goes though....
Isn't it before the ban there are many semi-stall teams with the format of 4-mon defensive core+Choiced Victini+Bulky setup sweeper? With Victini gone, these type of teams would disappear forever. No mon like Victini can fit into that slot. No more lazy teambuilding by smacking Victini into a bunch of stallish stuff. But you are going to bring it back after retest won't you.
Finally my Mega Absol no longer needs to run the ever-missing Iron Tail. Bye Togekiss!
About Lucario. Now that both the Physical and Special set are very viable and Physical Luc runs EQ, very few things can reliably check it.
Scarf Moltres is the only one who avoids 2HKO or OHKO after +2 from every 252+ LO-boosted move AND can outspeed and OHKO back.
252+ SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 131-155 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 261-308 (81.3 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 135-160 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 269-318 (83.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Banded Crobat survives 252+ LO Flash Cannon and +2 252+ LO Extremespeed while OHKOing with BB.
Golbat can somehow wall Luc and do 50%+ with uninvested Brave Bird, but is slower so it can't really switch into Luc without risk, AND BB recoil means it can't really survive 2 LO Flash Cannons from 252+.
There are other things like Cresselia, Spiritomb, Dusclops (lol), Uxie, and Altaria which avoids the 2HKOs too, but they are all slower and can't do anything back. And they're shit.
Finally my Mega Absol no longer needs to run the ever-missing Iron Tail. Bye Togekiss!
About Lucario. Now that both the Physical and Special set are very viable and Physical Luc runs EQ, very few things can reliably check it.
Scarf Moltres is the only one who avoids 2HKO or OHKO after +2 from every 252+ LO-boosted move AND can outspeed and OHKO back.
252+ SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 131-155 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 261-308 (81.3 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 135-160 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 269-318 (83.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Banded Crobat survives 252+ LO Flash Cannon and +2 252+ LO Extremespeed while OHKOing with BB.
Golbat can somehow wall Luc and do 50%+ with uninvested Brave Bird, but is slower so it can't really switch into Luc without risk, AND BB recoil means it can't really survive 2 LO Flash Cannons from 252+.
There are other things like Cresselia, Spiritomb, Dusclops (lol), Uxie, and Altaria which avoids the 2HKOs too, but they are all slower and can't do anything back. And they're shit.
I liked what Togekiss brought to the tier as a more versatile Fairy option to handle dragons as well as being a great Defogger among other things, never really considered it to be more than just annoying as usual tbh. What exactly made people want to give it the boot? Victini on the other hand I wouldn't mind staying BL at all and felt the same for BW, it's ridiculous at what it does and its absence will make things interesting for sure
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