Metagame ORAS/XY PU (Serperior Banned)

[Grim]

Dwebble @ Eviolite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- Toxic

This is a bit off topic but i'd really like to talk about this cutie. As there are no fully evolved mons with both stealth rock and spikes in the tier, i think dwebble may be the best option for hyper offensive teams at the moment as mons like garbodor and roselia can take up a much needed slot sometimes. With max speed investment, sturdy and eviolite, dwebble is likely to get up AT LEAST rocks and 1 layer of spikes but often he's able to do more than that as well whether it be a toxic/ knock off on a spinner or defogger. Pls consider this man :]]]

The problem I have with Dwebble is that Taunt just completely shuts it down, and leaves you with no hazards on the opposing field.

 

[Ares]

The problem I have with Dwebble is that Taunt just completely shuts it down, and leaves you with no hazards on the opposing field.

Taunt shuts down a lot of hazard setters and all you have to do is either predict taunt and switch or switch after you've been taunted, come in on a later turn and setup hazards again. Gotta adapt to ppl's attempts to counter your hazard setting.

 

[Grim]

Taunt shuts down a lot of hazard setters and all you have to do is either predict taunt and switch or switch after you've been taunted, come in on a later turn and setup hazards again. Gotta adapt to ppl's attempts to counter your hazard setting.

Easier said than done. If you switch out it's very likely that the opponent sets up his own hazards ruining Sturdy, and good ol' offensive pressure often makes you unable to set up your hazards mid game. I'm not saying that Dwebble is bad, but I'd personally rather use a hyper offense lead that is not complete Taunt bait, even if Dwebble has access to both Stealth Rocks and Spikes.

 

[yikes]

Easier said than done. If you switch out it's very likely that the opponent sets up his own hazards ruining Sturdy, and good ol' offensive pressure often makes you unable to set up your hazards mid game. I'm not saying that Dwebble is bad, but I'd personally rather use a hyper offense lead that is not complete Taunt bait, even if Dwebble has access to both Stealth Rocks and Spikes.

Maybe run Mental Herb? It's not like you need the bulk anyways as a suicide lead.

 

[Anty]

Maybe run Mental Herb? It's not like you need the bulk anyways as a suicide lead.

Then you lose your ability to set up rocks and a layer spikes; with berry juice you can get back up to sturdy to set a second layer. Either way, dwebble is just not too effective, its a shame considering its our best rock + spike option.

e: i didnt see lep's post about running l100 dwebble. I have ran level 1 with berry juice (works well vs worse players, however is set up fodder). The problem i see with level100 is that its a predictable lead and plenty outspeeds + 2hkos.

Your better just running rocker + seperate spiker

 

[Grim]

Maybe run Mental Herb? It's not like you need the bulk anyways as a suicide lead.

That is an option of course, and guarantees at least one hazard unless the oponnent has a Magic Bouncer, but Dwebble's niche is having access to both Stealth Rocks and Spikes. With Mental Herb the chance of getting up both Rocks and Spikes is much smaller, so another lead that only sets up Rocks (for example Golem), or only Spikes I guess (Whirlipede) would be preferred.

Edit: Greninja'd.

 

[gramer nazi]

Zweilous doesn't get dragon dance

*Work up

Sorry, I'm used to setting up with Dragon Dance on Dragon types, so I guess I just auto typed Dragon Dance x)

 

[The Leprechaun]

Then you lose your ability to set up rocks and a layer spikes; with berry juice you can get back up to sturdy to set a second layer. Either way, dwebble is just not too effective, its a shame considering its our best rock + spike option.

e: i didnt see lep's post about running l100 dwebble. I have ran level 1 with berry juice (works well vs worse players, however is set up fodder). The problem i see with level100 is that its a predictable lead and plenty outspeeds + 2hkos.

Your better just running rocker + seperate spiker

First of all, problem with lvl1 dwebble is that it instantly loses to rock blast, icicle spear and bullet seed. 3 moves which /should/ be on most piloswine, golem and torterra.

Second of all, the number of common taunt users is minimal, the most relevant being missy and pretty much all hazard users are useless against it, all being outspeed and burned on the following turn. The fact that I've given dwebble knock off only makes it more effective.

Thirdly, if you think that suicide lead /always/ has to lead then you're probably using yours wrong. For example, in RU, Froslass was banned despite the fact that it lost to one of RU's most common mons, rhyperior, in one turn with rock blast, preventing it from getting up more than one spike. If you saw rhyperior on the opposing team, you did not lead froslass and you still managed to get up some hazards on another turn.

Yes there are mons who outspeed and 2hko but that is outweighed by the fact that the majority of mons either don't outspeed or don't 2hko. The fact that you can run a mon which gives another team slot you can use for so many roles is huge and the dismissal of dwebble on the basis that there are good spoilers and good stealth rockers doesn't make sense. Dwebble fills the niche of doing both and it's been fairly effective at it.

 

[Anty]

First of all, problem with lvl1 dwebble is that it instantly loses to rock blast, icicle spear and bullet seed. 3 moves which /should/ be on most piloswine, golem and torterra.

Second of all, the number of common taunt users is minimal, the most relevant being missy and pretty much all hazard users are useless against it, all being outspeed and burned on the following turn. The fact that I've given dwebble knock off only makes it more effective.

Thirdly, if you think that suicide lead /always/ has to lead then you're probably using yours wrong. For example, in RU, Froslass was banned despite the fact that it lost to one of RU's most common mons, rhyperior, in one turn with rock blast, preventing it from getting up more than one spike. If you saw rhyperior on the opposing team, you did not lead froslass and you still managed to get up some hazards on another turn.

Yes there are mons who outspeed and 2hko but that is outweighed by the fact that the majority of mons either don't outspeed or don't 2hko. The fact that you can run a mon which gives another team slot you can use for so many roles is huge and the dismissal of dwebble on the basis that there are good spoilers and good stealth rockers doesn't make sense. Dwebble fills the niche of doing both and it's been fairly effective at it.

Sorry i originally responded in a rush, so i am sorry i wasnt clear. I know level1 dwebble is pretty bad, but firstly the three pokes you mentioned are the only ones who commonly run those moves iirc, not every poke has it. Its less effective due to ways breaking its sturdy with toxic/willo/etc or it being set up fodder, i never said it was good, although i can see why you thought i did.

kricketune is fairly common (in higher play; not on the ladder), but i do agree that there are a lack of taunters.

Dwebble finds it hard to set up hazards all the time due to its sub-par special bulk and speed. I do appreciate how you pick and chose certain pokes to set up on, something like torterra maybe, but there are still problems due it being somewhat matchup reliant; as a hyper offence player, there wont be many set up opportunities (all i can think of is tauros and purugly, although that varies from team to team), but against a stall team you have more opportunities (such as lickilicky, torterra). Another problem i see is the prevalence of hazard removers, although it may seem like we have few, most teams have one, offense has swanna, defensive have peliper/togetic/ray or even avalugg/wartortle (purugly has a hard time switching in due to getting walled/twave/scald, whilst wartortle has forseight)

I still think two separate pokes are better, most spikers only spike, like glalie, but others, like roselia can do other things. Similar to rockers, stuff like piloswine is a great volturn check, has priority etc, and there are offensive rockers such as marowak.

Im not doubting you, but out of interest, what do you usually try on set up on? We seriously need a rock spiker

 

[g]

Figuring i'll make a post here.
As a council member I am not truly convinced Musharna is broken in this tier. I mean it is very very bulky, can set up and win games by itself (or thanks to Baton Pass) against many unprepared teams (notice the word "unprepared), BUT it is also very slow, not strong without many boosts, vulnerable to entry hazards and offensive pressure (all those volturn teams simply don't give a shit bout it lol), and has a shit recovery move and coverage.

People in this thread are just answering to the question "is musharna broken?" with calculations that are almost completely non realistic in a regular battle scenario as Musharna can't simply switch in and stall out every pokemon by spamming moonlight throughout the whole game if it is supposed to be a slow pivot (which actually implies it HAS to take a hit before going out, making any "random mon uses random strong stab and still cant 2hko musharna without any kind of prior damage" argument moot).
Even if musharna is at full health every teamstyle has its ways of beating it with stall teams having Haze and Taunt users (and dark types LOL), balanced teams having all sorts of mid-late game sweepers that can beat it even if it is at +1 like Bouffalant, Sneasel, Scyther, Carracosta + Taunt Misdreavus/Subdisable Haunter+ Random phazers/status/whatever and offensive teams have offensive pressure from any kind of special attacker, entry hazards, and the setup sweepers above.

The Calm Mind + Baton Pass and Calm Mind + Heal Bell sets are really really good but they are also quite easily stopped in many ways and i feel like most of the pro ban argument (which is going to win in the end probably) just doesn't want to use them such as

Hide

The day Musharna gets banned is that day I don't NEED a dark-type on my team any more

There are some pokemon that can check/counter Musharna. The real problem lies in the fact that in order to deal with Musharna, you almost have to bring one or two of these pokemon. That shouldn't ever be the case in any tier, meaning Musharna just promotes a very unhealthy metagame.
So yes, I feel like we need to ban Musharna. The whole tier really does revolve around this Pokemon, and at times it feels less like a 6v6 but more like your mission to try and figure out how to eliminate the opposing Musharna. I again say yes, ban Musharna, as it's really a Pokemon that holds it's own weight along with the rest of the teams. There comes a point when building a PU team where you always stop and think "oh yeah I can use Musharna." It is a very convenient and mold-able pokemon in terms of role-filling and doing it's job and then some. Definitely an unhealthy metagame disease, as you always need to add something on your team to deal with it. Always.

TL;DR - Ban Musharna, more like a nightmare Pokemon rather than a dream Pokemon. Also sorry for the long post :]

There are many more probably but i think you get the gist
And in ANY TIER you have to prepare for top tier threats.
ANY TIER.


Finally i suggest you to read this post as this resumes my stand on the ban

I haven't played this tier a lot but I do not find this thing broken. It really isn't too different from Reuniclus in BW1 OU which the metagame adapted to, Clefable is similar now as well. Honestly I think you just need something that can force musharna out. As the above post shows with 0 SpA Musharna Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Sneasel: 104-124 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, scouting it is possible, and once you know the set you know how to attack it. Musharna benefits from its versatility, but once you know the set you will know how to attack it. You 'beat' Musharna by actually winning the game. Force it out and use the successive turns to weaken the counters to your win condition and just set it up or let it loose. Musharna's bulk is pretty overstated; 252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 179-212 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. I am not going to BS around and say that physical attackers beat it when mostly only dark types can, but using u-turn/vswitch moves, sr damage and status can add up. I mean, I can't think of many physical pokes that outright mash clefable without supereffective dmg. Moonlight also has 8 PP. I can see that 'get something to force it out' can be seen as Musharna being centralizing, but it is preparing for a major threat. It's not like the pokes that beat musharna are useless otherwise; sneasel itself is an s-rank poke.

Thank you for reading

 

[WildHope]

Figuring i'll make a post here.
As a council member I am not truly convinced Musharna is broken in this tier. I mean it is very very bulky, can set up and win games by itself (or thanks to Baton Pass) against many unprepared teams (notice the word "unprepared), BUT it is also very slow, not strong without many boosts, vulnerable to entry hazards and offensive pressure (all those volturn teams simply don't give a shit bout it lol), and has a shit recovery move and coverage.

People in this thread are just answering to the question "is musharna broken?" with calculations that are almost completely non realistic in a regular battle scenario as Musharna can't simply switch in and stall out every pokemon by spamming moonlight throughout the whole game if it is supposed to be a slow pivot (which actually implies it HAS to take a hit before going out, making any "random mon uses random strong stab and still cant 2hko musharna without any kind of prior damage" argument moot).
Even if musharna is at full health every teamstyle has its ways of beating it with stall teams having Haze and Taunt users (and dark types LOL), balanced teams having all sorts of mid-late game sweepers that can beat it even if it is at +1 like Bouffalant, Sneasel, Scyther, Carracosta + Taunt Misdreavus/Subdisable Haunter+ Random phazers/status/whatever and offensive teams have offensive pressure from any kind of special attacker, entry hazards, and the setup sweepers above.

The Calm Mind + Baton Pass and Calm Mind + Heal Bell sets are really really good but they are also quite easily stopped in many ways and i feel like most of the pro ban argument (which is going to win in the end probably) just doesn't want to use them such as
There are many more probably but i think you get the gist
And in ANY TIER you have to prepare for top tier threats.
ANY TIER.


Finally i suggest you to read this post as this resumes my stand on the ban



Thank you for reading

The thing with musha isnt than you cannot break she, when people say than she can take things like Bug Bite from CB Scy and survive is only to demostrade how bulky she is, you only need prior damage to get the KO, but is hard to do because there arent enough mons than can swith into it without fear, and than make her work easy, she can give huge support to many dangerous threat easily.
And she can even sweep prepared teams, but i guess i need to be over prepared in all my teams with more than one counter and not using the half of the tier than can be set up fodder.
i have an example:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-173481967
I have a CB Scyther than is constantly spamming Stab U-trun on musha, but i cannot break she because her huge bulk and in every turn i have to play with huge pressure, if i predict wrong i just lose a mon no matter what, Sleep Powder dont even work as a check move, she just awake in both turns than i was supposed to break it. I cannot just deals some prior damage with Taruos because she can kill him and recover the damage, Raichu cannot do enough damage either, and him is a set up fodder like the 80% of special attackers in the tier (and things like Haunter can only revenge kill it, Sub Disable is the only set than can defeat musha, at +1 she can even take a Specs SB after SR and 3 layers of Spikes) so i have to start running Bug Bite on scy in place of Knock Off and lose coverage and a good scout move, or change one of my counters for others top threats than can be checked with only ONE mon.

She isnt the best example of a broken mon, but i feel than she is enough broken for a ban in the actual PU meta.
And i dont like the top threat example, you can call any broken mon a top threat before they ban.

 

[mickey314]

Pokemon that counter Musharna:

Attackers:
Butterfree (Bug Buzz), Drifblim (Shadow Ball), Parasect (X-Scissor), Mightyena (Crunch), Mothim (Bug Buzz), Shedinja (X-Scissor), Vespiquen (Attack Order)

Walls:
Beheeyem (Bug Buzz), Girafarig (Hyper Voice), Grumpig (Energy Ball), Lunatone (HP Rock), Mighteyena (Crunch), Musharna (Calm Mind and Psychic) Mr.Mime (Dazzling Gleam), Solrock (Stone Edge)

Based on:

Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Moonlight
- Baton Pass

Personally, I wouldn't ban it and I know that's an unpopular opinion but I just haven't had too many problems with it

 

[yikes]

Pokemon that counter Musharna:

Attackers:
Butterfree (Bug Buzz), Drifblim (Shadow Ball), Parasect (X-Scissor), Mightyena (Crunch), Mothim (Bug Buzz), Shedinja (X-Scissor), Vespiquen (Attack Order)

Walls:
Beheeyem (Bug Buzz), Girafarig (Hyper Voice), Grumpig (Energy Ball), Lunatone (HP Rock), Mighteyena (Crunch), Musharna (Calm Mind and Psychic) Mr.Mime (Dazzling Gleam), Solrock (Stone Edge)

Based on:

Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Moonlight
- Baton Pass

Personally, I wouldn't ban it and I know that's an unpopular opinion but I just haven't had too many problems with it

Beheeyem gets Bug Buzz? I didn't know that.

 

[Ares]

First off, Welcome to Smogon :D

Pokemon that counter Musharna:

Attackers:
Butterfree (Bug Buzz), Drifblim (Shadow Ball), Parasect (X-Scissor), Mightyena (Crunch), Mothim (Bug Buzz), Shedinja (X-Scissor), Vespiquen (Attack Order)

Imma just go through and give my thoughts on each of these, any specially based pokemon needs to come in before Musharna sets up any Calm Minds, other wise they will be easily overwhelmed. Butterfree can put it to sleep, but it isnt the best Pokemon and sleep is a shaky check at best. The physical Pokemon you have are either easily checked by other Pokemon or entry hazards like Shedinja, while Parasect and Mightyena do less than 40% with their STAB Super Effective moves. Musharna has recovery and can easily outstall them or can Baton Pass out and have something else deal with them.[/quote]

Walls:
Beheeyem (Bug Buzz), Girafarig (Hyper Voice), Grumpig (Energy Ball), Lunatone (HP Rock), Mighteyena (Crunch), Musharna (Calm Mind and Psychic) Mr.Mime (Dazzling Gleam), Solrock (Stone Edge)

Based on:

Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Moonlight
- Baton Pass

Im not entirely sure what you mean by walls but only Mightyena "walls" that one set you are using and Musharna can always Baton Pass out or run Signal Beam.

Beheeyem gets Bug Buzz? I didn't know that.

So Beheeyem cant actually learn Bug Buzz, while everything else doesnt do jack to Musharna after it has a Calm Mind boost up. Not really "walls" :/

Personally, I wouldn't ban it and I know that's an unpopular opinion but I just haven't had too many problems with it

So just something to keep in mind when looking at a suspect test on Smogon is how the Pokemon affects the meta as a whole, not just your personal experience with it. Because you may or may not be using the one Pokemon that counters it, and just because it hasnt been giving you trouble doesnt mean it hasnt been giving 98% of other people playing the tier trouble.


galbia I would encourage you to look at this test more the way that people in RU looked at how Zoroark affected the RU meta. Musharna isnt outright broken or overcentralizing and there are a couple of ways to get around it along with a couple of checks, but overall the versatility and team support that Musharna provides is enough to get it banned imo.

 

[The Leprechaun]

While Parasect and Mightyena do less than 40% with their STAB Super Effective moves. Musharna has recovery and can easily outstall them or can Baton Pass out and have something else deal with them.

252+ Atk Life Orb Mightyena Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 234-276 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery why hate on dog
252+ Atk Choice Band Parasect X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 278-330 (63.7 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

why hate on dog and bug ;;;

(but seriously mightyena is a good check)

 

[Ares]

252+ Atk Life Orb Mightyena Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 234-276 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery why hate on dog
252+ Atk Choice Band Parasect X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 278-330 (63.7 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

why hate on dog and bug ;;;

(but seriously mightyena is a good check)

Ah true enough, was using default calcs for Parasect, but idk CB parasect doesnt seem that good tbh :/ Also I was remembering Mightyena in a bad light lol, didnt double check a calc for that. So Mightyena is a good check, but once again Musharna can simply Baton Pass out or run Signal Beam to deal with it.

 

[BadPandaPancham]

Figuring i'll make a post here.
As a council member I am not truly convinced Musharna is broken in this tier. I mean it is very very bulky, can set up and win games by itself (or thanks to Baton Pass) against many unprepared teams (notice the word "unprepared), BUT it is also very slow, not strong without many boosts, vulnerable to entry hazards and offensive pressure (all those volturn teams simply don't give a shit bout it lol), and has a shit recovery move and coverage.

People in this thread are just answering to the question "is musharna broken?" with calculations that are almost completely non realistic in a regular battle scenario as Musharna can't simply switch in and stall out every pokemon by spamming moonlight throughout the whole game if it is supposed to be a slow pivot (which actually implies it HAS to take a hit before going out, making any "random mon uses random strong stab and still cant 2hko musharna without any kind of prior damage" argument moot).
Even if musharna is at full health every teamstyle has its ways of beating it with stall teams having Haze and Taunt users (and dark types LOL), balanced teams having all sorts of mid-late game sweepers that can beat it even if it is at +1 like Bouffalant, Sneasel, Scyther, Carracosta + Taunt Misdreavus/Subdisable Haunter+ Random phazers/status/whatever and offensive teams have offensive pressure from any kind of special attacker, entry hazards, and the setup sweepers above.

The Calm Mind + Baton Pass and Calm Mind + Heal Bell sets are really really good but they are also quite easily stopped in many ways and i feel like most of the pro ban argument (which is going to win in the end probably) just doesn't want to use them such as
There are many more probably but i think you get the gist
And in ANY TIER you have to prepare for top tier threats.
ANY TIER.


Finally i suggest you to read this post as this resumes my stand on the ban



Thank you for reading

I agree with you in terms of it isn't nearly as overpowered or overcentralizing as people claim (like I did too for some reason, that was just out of my bum), but the fact that it is really very versatile and useful on so many different team comps and performs multiple jobs brilliantly is great. While yes, there are definitely ways to take down a Musharna even with a team not purposely running anything for it, but that was the case for Pokémon like Aegislash in OU. It wasn't a problem for some people, but it just did so well against other teams. A lot of people run common sets like Taunt and Mightyena and a lot of others, and while they aren't bad, they are even more common and used due to the fact that they do deal with Musharna. Now I know that excuse could be used for a lot of mons, but still. I know it isn't overcentralizing, but it's just a tad too good for PU. Like I said in an earlier post,

...what I meant to say is it brings up a point on the question "Is Musharna overcentralizing? Are you forced to dedicate at least 2 team slots to handle it?" The usage statistics were by no means my main argument or point, I was just saying if the Pokémon isn't exactly super prevalent on the ladder it definitely can be broken (NU Combusken) , but that shows little to no signs of overcentralization from there. I'm trying to say a lot of common Pokémon still check/counter it (Banded Scyther, Mightyena, Taunt leads, Trick Choice Item, Bastiodon/Camerupt, Ursaring, Flareon, etc.) so it's not overcentralizating since no, technically you don't need to take up multiple team slots to handle it, it's more of how much do you want to sacrifice of your team to ensure Mushy is a lot easier to deal with.

There's a lot more to say on both sides of the discussion, but I'll stop talking for now since I'm on my phone and I need to leave.

 

[SpaceOpera]

Hi guys! I've started playing PU Tier today, and I've been having great success.

My secret? CURSE LAPRAS.

I've been incredibly successful with her. So few people use Lapras, and even fewer use Curse on her. Curse is pretty tough to use in other metagames, but it's been working here.

THE MIGHTY LORELEI
Leftovers
252 HP, 252 Attack, 4 SpD (Adamant Nature)
-Curse
-Aqua Tail
-Avalanche
-Drill Run/Aqua Jet

Avalanche effectively becomes a base 120 STAB move since you most often attack last. Aqua Tail is a solid STAB move and the main move of the set. Drill Run is there for neutral coverage against opposing waters. Aqua Jet is also an option.

For support, I like to set up screens with Meowstic-M. That makes Lapras bulky to start with, so she can more easily use Curse. I also have a Wish-Heal Bell Wigglytuff as a cleric.

You'd be surprised by a) how bulky Lapras is and can be after a Curse or two, and b) how strong Lapras is after a Curse or two.

 

[Politoad]

Ban.

Why should we ban Musharna? It's great balanced stats in combination with a very wide movepool makes it very useful in the PU tier, maybe a bit too useful. There are quite less Pokemon that can beat it, as PU has a low amount Dark- and- Ghost-types, that are able to defeat Musharna, leaving it basically with only weak Bug-types that can damage it with super effective STABs, where Musharna can tank a hit from and easily defeat them with Psychic.

You aren't able to do a lot of damage by status, as it has access to cleric support in Heal Bell, but also stops set-up sweepers by paralyzing them with Thunder Wave, and switch out after, or just KO it as it has a high base Special Attack and two good STABs in Psychic and Psyshock.

Coming back to the wide movepool part I mentioned in the beginning, Musharna can succesfully fill in different roles in the PU metagame, for example a bulky cleric set with Heal Bell, a Trick Room setter or an All-Out Offensive set, that all most likely provide success.

1. Bulky Cleric Set

Musharna has great bulk on the overall (116/85/95) meaning that it is almost guaranteed to pull of a Heal Bell, that is excellent for teammates that are crippled by status, such as Tauros, but also helps Musharna itself, as it prevents it from being crippled by Toxic damage. Moonlight allows it to recover a good amount of HP, especially when used on a sun team. After it has recovered, it can take some hits and beat offensive Pokemon with Psychic, or just inflict Status on them.

2. Trick Room

As Musharna has very low Speed, not only it provides itself by outspeeding most Pokemon in the tier after except for Gigalith and Avalugg, but also helps slower Pokemon, such as Marowak functioning way better by KOing Pokemon without fearing to take damage from some.

3. All-Out Offensive

Musharna has also a good wide offensive movepool (Psychic/Psyshock, Dazzling Gleam, Shadow Ball) that allows it to do its job well as a Special Attacker, because it has a great Special Attack stat that disallows opponents to switch-in very easily and like mentioned earlier, a wide movepool. Trick Room support is especially useful on this set as Musharna is very slow, and boosts its longevity as it has to take one less hit. It can recover from being attacked, and continuing attacking further, and beats several Fighting- and Poison-types in the tier, but also 2HKOes bulky Dragon-type Pokemon in the tier such as Fraxure with Dazzling Gleam.

Aside from these good points, you do not really need two team slots to take care of Musharna, as a bulky setup sweeper, preferably those with recovery, can get rid of Musharna. Also, Pokemon that can Trick Musharna when using a tank set, allow it to limitedly use a single, damaging attack (assuming the tank set is used which I think is the best for it)

 

[viol and bass]

Couple of sort of unconventional sets I've been using:

Torterra @ Choice Band
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Wood Hammer
- Stone Edge
- Bullet Seed

Okay, this one's not that unconventional but it's extremely effective. Every single time that I've seen a Golem or Camerupt lead, I've outsped and OHKOed them before they've even gotten rocks up. It hits unbelievably hard, with Overgrow boosting the power of Wood Hammer even further. It's still got counters, but very few of them. Tangela and Gourgeist-Super pretty much covers it. It can also lure in and KO many flying-types with Stone Edge.

Throh (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Storm Throw / Circle Throw
- Thunder Punch
- Knock Off

Another usually defensive threat turned offensive. Throh's bulky as hell, but it also has a great and very underutilized attack stat with a great ability and movepool to go with it. Offensive sets are usually overshadowed in higher tiers, but in PU, Throh doesn't have much competition. Banded Superpower, again, hits really fucking hard. And hey, get this. If Throh's burned (Will-o-Wisps are very easy to lure), Musharna, who's about to be banned, is OHKOed half the time after rocks by Knock Off. If you've faced Musharna, you know how impressive that is. Really good mon. Thunder Punch is for Pelipper and Mantine, who are both easily OHKOed.

 

[BadPandaPancham]

Unconventional sets are great, and also fun. I have one I have been falling in love with.
Scarf Barbaracle.

New Meta (Barbaracle) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Switcheroo
- Razor Shell
- Stone Edge
- Cross Chop / Superpower

First off, I have Superpower crossed over Cross Chop because it hits harder and has 100% accuracy which Barbaracle seems to steer away from. It's only slashed due to it only being available in ORAS through move tutors, so right now it's unavailable. But, I have used Barbaracle and it is extremely powerful and useful. It his very hard, and the great thing about Scarf over SS is that the instant speed boosts matter a huge margin. It's very easy to late game sweep or revenge kill freely with Tough Claws and a 105 base attack. Switcheroo is a great wall crippler for Pokemon like Tangela thinking they can switch in without a care in the world. You could even run Adamant for added power, but you get outsped by anything over 110 base speed (including the 112 Purugly). Great in combination with Spikes and Stealth Rock, it cleans up very well. I've gotten saved from losses due to my test set teams being such garbodor (funny because Garbodor isn't trash in this tier) and Barbaracle brings it back, or makes it close.

Also one of those test sets I should give a shout-out to is AV Maractus. Knock Off/Sucker Punch/Drain Punch/Seed Bomb doesn't look very good on paper, but it actually preforms decently. Tribalt can confirm.

 

[Politoad]

Unconventional sets are great, and also fun. I have one I have been falling in love with.
Scarf Barbaracle.

New Meta (Barbaracle) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Switcheroo
- Razor Shell
- Stone Edge
- Cross Chop / Superpower

First off, I have Superpower crossed over Cross Chop because it hits harder and has 100% accuracy which Barbaracle seems to steer away from. It's only slashed due to it only being available in ORAS through move tutors, so right now it's unavailable. But, I have used Barbaracle and it is extremely powerful and useful. It his very hard, and the great thing about Scarf over SS is that the instant speed boosts matter a huge margin. It's very easy to late game sweep or revenge kill freely with Tough Claws and a 105 base attack. Switcheroo is a great wall crippler for Pokemon like Tangela thinking they can switch in without a care in the world. You could even run Adamant for added power, but you get outsped by anything over 110 base speed (including the 112 Purugly). Great in combination with Spikes and Stealth Rock, it cleans up very well. I've gotten saved from losses due to my test set teams being such garbodor (funny because Garbodor isn't trash in this tier) and Barbaracle brings it back, or makes it close.

Also one of those test sets I should give a shout-out to is AV Maractus. Knock Off/Sucker Punch/Drain Punch/Seed Bomb doesn't look very good on paper, but it actually preforms decently. Tribalt can confirm.

I'm just saying this, you don't really to be locked into a Superpower after a few turns, so it forces Barbaracle to switch after a turn or two (i think?) and might give the opponent a free turn to set up. (Example for if you stay in; you have a Barbaracle at 0.5x Atk and the opponent has a Huntail, he/she will probably know that Huntail will easily take the hit and manage to get a Shell Smash off and eventually Baton Pass into a teammate that isn't hit super effectively by superpower.

About the rest, I think the set looks fine, so I'd just use Cross Chop over Superpower.

 

[The Leprechaun]

I'm just saying this, you don't really to be locked into a Superpower after a few turns, so it forces Barbaracle to switch after a turn or two (i think?) and might give the opponent a free turn to set up. (Example for if you stay in; you have a Barbaracle at 0.5x Atk and the opponent has a Huntail, he/she will probably know that Huntail will easily take the hit and manage to get a Shell Smash off and eventually Baton Pass into a teammate that isn't hit super effectively by superpower.

About the rest, I think the set looks fine, so I'd just use Cross Chop over Superpower.

Tbh, the extra power and accuracy is well worth it, especially as superpower is pretty much only there for coverage and so not needed for late-game sweeps.

 

[WhiteDMist]

So we have just 3 days left before we decide on new additions to the PU Council (both permanent and rotating) who will VOTE, so if you have stuff you want to say about Musharna, please post it ASAP. Remember, you don't get on Council JUST by talking about the Musharna suspect, but by participating in general discussion with good, well-thought out posts about the PU tier and being a good presence in #pu and/or the PU Room on Pokemon Showdown!

I've gone through the arguments and have compiled the best arguments for both side of the spectrum (as well as added some my own). Why did I bother, you may ask? I want everyone to LOOK AT ALL SIDES OF THE ISSUES before you cast your judgement. I know that many of you have your decisions set in stone already, but bans should not be taken lightly. Before we decide on anything, please try arguing for the other side of the spectrum; you might be surprised at what you can find. There are likely more arguments that can be added, so keep the discussion coming.

Pro Ban:

• It's such a good catch-all check to random Pokemon.
• Little can OHKO it, let alone 2HKO it.
• Can set up pretty easily against most of the tier, and even pass the boosts.
• It's sheer versatility allows it to work for any kind of team. It fulfills so many roles its ridiculous. Some of the roles it fills can even stack on the same set.
• Baton Pass alone allows it to do many things, from passing boosts, to pivoting into teammates, to escaping its checks and counters.
• It doesn't rely too much on its teammates or support to beat its checks and counters, and it has its own answers to them as well.

Anti Ban:

• Most types of teams have at least Pokemon that can handle it, so it doesn't limit teambuilding.
• Not overcentralizing to the point where people run Pokemon that can only check/counter Musharna with no other purpose.
• Each of Musharna's sets can be checked by common Pokemon, and some even countered. Once you know its set, you know how to handle it (plus it helps that very few of Musharna's sets have immediate offensive power).
• Vulnerable to being worn down, so it relies a lot on Moonlight, which has limited PP.

You see the opposing points, so counter them if you are able. Remember, it's not the number of points/arguments, but the quality of them.

EDIT: Guys, just in case it wasn't already obvious, these points are summations of most of the thoughts in the suspect test. Don't take what I wrote word for word, look back through the thread to find where these points came from and see the full explanation for them first.

 

[Ares]

Just gonna post my thoughts on the anti ban bullet points, as I am Pro-ban.

• Most types of teams have at least Pokemon that can handle it, so it doesn't limit teambuilding.
• Not overcentralizing to the point where people run Pokemon that can only check/counter Musharna with no other purpose.

I agree with both of these points. When saying most teams have something that can handle it I believe that is referring to stuff like having hazards up and keeping offensive pressure up on Musharna. Yes this can be done, it isnt impossible to beat Musharna, does that make it any less banable? No, it still has to many traits that make it a ban in my eyes. It is no overcentralizing because there are very few Pokemon that are actually a hard counter to it, and the Pokemon that can 2HKO it are very good in the metagame so there is really no reason not to be running the few Pokemon that can. The only reason it isnt overcentralizing is because of that, so while I do agree with the reason, once you look at it a little further in depth the point becomes moot.

• Each of Musharna's sets can be checked by common Pokemon, and some even countered. Once you know its set, you know how to handle it (plus it helps that very few of Musharna's sets have immediate offensive power).

Yes each set can be checked by a common Pokemon and even countered. But how big is that list really? Like 3-4 Pokemon, and when looking at a suspect you have to look at the Pokemon overall in the metagame. If you haven't been having trouble with Musharna because you are running X, that doesnt mean it isnt broken. You might of just been running one of the few Pokemon that is either a hard counter or a really good check. Also it isnt the fact that Musharna doesnt have immediate offensive power, its the fact that it can live multiple hits and boost up and sweep or pass the boosts to something that can sweep.

• Vulnerable to being worn down, so it relies a lot on Moonlight, which has limited PP.

This is a terrible argument imo, very rarely have I ever seen Musharna use more than 5 PP on Moonlight, and a lot of the time the person overused Moonlight. It does not need all 8 PP to effectively do its job, the fact that it can take hits so well limits the amount of times that it has to actually use Moonlight. If its a super long drawn out battle or Stall Fest, than yes that 8 PP might come into play, but at that point in the game you are just PP stalling anyways lol. This line is no where near good enough to argue for a not ban imo.

Those are my thoughts on the non-ban points, feel free to refute them ^.^