Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

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I'm going to have to agree with Karxrida here for the most part, when it comes to SW teams Encore pretty much trumps all the utility Foretress has. Forry's greatest flaw is the fact that it's complete setup fodder for almost everything, so a SW team with it needs to be able to revenge kill everything with the rest of its team members. Shuckle also isn't a free defog/spin for everything either. This makes Shuckle better than Foretress as a pure suicide lead, yes Forry has spikes and spin but let's be real here, you're not getting those up before dying vs most teams.

One nice thing about Forry though is that, unlike Shuckle, it's not purely a suicide lead. If you manage to get rocks and webs up without dying or if something prevents you from getting hazards up early, you can just use Volt Switch to pivot into something and save it for later. Shuckle on the other hand kinda needs to die straight away. Overall I'd still say Shuckle is still a more reliable SW setter and restricts your teambuilding less, and I would personally use it more often since in most cases both are just dying in 2-3 turns so it's better to ensure the opponent doesn't set up/defog for free.

I guess you could make the case that Forry is better at getting webs up vs balanced teams b/c it can find opportunities to come in a few times and get webs/rocks up before letting something come in for free via Volt Switch. idk, I don't see this is being too much of an improvement over Shuckle.
 
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Albacore said:
I'm going to have to agree with Karxrida here for the most part, when it comes to SW teams Encore pretty much trumps all the utility Foretress has. Forry's greatest flaw is the fact that it's complete setup fodder for almost everything, so a SW team with it needs to be able to revenge kill everything with the rest of its team members. Shuckle also isn't a free defog/spin for everything either. This makes Shuckle better than Foretress as a pure suicide lead, yes Forry has spikes and spin but let's be real here, you're not getting those up before dying vs most teams.

One nice thing about Forry though is that, unlike Shuckle, it's not purely a suicide lead. If you manage to get rocks and webs up without dying or if something prevents you from getting hazards up early, you can just use Volt Switch to pivot into something and save it for later. Shuckle on the other hand kinda needs to die straight away. Overall I'd still say Shuckle is still a more reliable SW setter and restricts your teambuilding less, and I would personally use it more often since in most cases both are just dying in 2-3 turns so it's better to ensure the opponent doesn't set up/defog for free.

I guess you could make the case that Forry is better at getting webs up vs balanced teams b/c it can find opportunities to come in a few times and get webs/rocks up before letting something come in for free via Volt Switch. idk, I don't see this is being too much of an improvement over Shuckle.
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While I'd agree with both of you that Shuckle can reliably set up SW better due to better typing and bulk, I wouldn't discount Forretress' ability to do so. I'd also like to point out that Forretress performs better against anti leads due to being significantly less susceptible to Taunt (factoring in Mental Herb).

Something I'd like to pose is the possibility of running BOTH Shuckle and Forretress on your team. I'm not SW expert, so I don't really know if that's redundant or not. I know sometimes stall teams run two SR users because they can afford it with the number of switches they force, and I wasn't sure if SW teams could sacrifice the teamslot to keep SW up. Just a thought, really.
 
I feel like Webs Ferro would lead to Donphan syndrome (ie, trying to do too much on one set), but another somewhat decent Webs user could make the playstyle overall more viable.

Side note, was Florges added before or after we knew it got Synthesis? Seems more annoying redundant with both.
 
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Celticpride said:
I feel like Webs Ferro would lead to Donphan syndrome(ie, teying to do too much on one set), but another somewhat decent Webs user could make the playstyle overall more viable.

Side note, was Florges added before or after we knew it got Synthesis? Seems more annoying redundant with both.
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This is second round slate and while I can not recall how long go it was, it was more based on the fact it made some sense and was done. The discussion of regent was never brought up during the topic of using it so i do not believe it was an over sight.
 
Salemance said:
This is second round slate and while I can not recall how long go it was, it was more based on the fact it made some sense and was done. The discussion of regent was never brought up during the topic of using it so i do not believe it was an over sight.
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Yeah I'm just trying to remember because I think I voted for it last time, and that benefits might be lesser now that it gets reliable 1 turn self-recovery. I couldn't remember if Synthesis factored into my reasoning last time or not. Anyways:

-Forretress + Sticky Web: Could make Webs more viable, and Webs and Toxic Spikes could be an interesting combo. That could really cripple unprepared teams. It's not totally outclassed by Shuckle, although it is less effective than it.

-Empoleon + Lightningrod: Really like this. Good utility, great "fuck you Washtom" potential, better Agility sets. Potential return of SubPetaya Empoleon, now more set-up chances?

-Florges + Regenerator: Synthesis+Regen+high Special Defense=it may never die. A Regen core of Florges and Slowbro may be the most annoying thing ever. Get your wallbreakers ready, otherwise those two might make you pull your hair out.

-Infernape + Prankster: Prankster Rocks combined with Taunt seems to be the biggest highlight, although this really doesn't help offensive MixApe that much. Prankster Encore on something with actual offensive presence is really interesting, especially paired with U-Turn.
 
Forretress + Sticky Web: This seems like a good buff at first pass, but I'm not totally sold. For defensive teams, Forretress still ends up feeling like a poor man's Ferrothorn; with that same 4x Fire weakness but no reliable recovery, no T-Wave support, and hideously nonexistent special bulk, he's just not tough enough for Stall or Semi-stall teams to spend a slot on (and those teams aren't searching for sticky web in general). His support options don't feel noticeably better than Shuckle either. As has been discussed those teams want Encore and Knock-Off support more than they would want additional hazard support, Dual Screens, or a slow Volt Switch.

Meanwhile, for offense teams Forretress is a bit less passive than Smeargle or Shuckle as a Sticky Web set-up 'mon, but still not great. 90 Attack is okay, but Forretress has no decent STABs (Bug Bite and a soft Gyro Ball is it). He has some surprising physical coverage in EdgeQuake and Explosion, but he's still no Ferrothorn (and obviously no Lando-T, Clefable, Excadrill, Starmie or MBlastoise) in terms of being a setter or a spinner . So basically, he's still a 'mon outclassed in the role's he's built for, trapped between worlds: too soft for defensive teams, not threatening enough for offensive teams. I think Sticky Web is an intriguing move that could really impact the meta, but I think what it needs is a powerful, bulky attacker that can actually abuse the speed drops itself instead of just helping out the teammates. As a designer of theorymons this is a code I'm trying to crack, but Forretress doesn't feel like the 'mon for the job.

Empoleon + Lightning Rod: I really wanted to vote for this the first time (but couldn't resist the power of the Goodra), and it's contender for my vote this time. I think anyone hoping for Agility or SubPetaya sets to be viable is living in Magical Christmas Land, but as a utility or defensive Pokemon this is a huge asset and as a Specs Attacker it's a nice perk, letting Emp switch in, get a boost, and clean house with Hydro Pump/Flash Cannon which together have pretty decent coverage.

Florges + Regenerator: The only appeal I can see is to have another viable fairy, even if it ends up feeling worse than Clefable, Diancie, and Sylveon. It at least has a different role than those guys, with Wish and Aromatherapy, but it just doesn't grab me the way the two starters in this slate do.

Infernape + Prankster: I'm learning that Prankster is rightly hated and feared, which has pushed me away from Infernape in the past. What more can be said about him? He's a great lead with this ability, and the only source of priority rocks in the game. Also, I ran the calcs wrong last time: I actually think an Impish 252 HP/252 Defense set can make most physical attackers, even ones that Infernape is weak too like Landorus, Diggersby, and Gyarados, extremely reluctant to switch in to him since he can Prankster WoW them and then tank any hit they dish out and stall with Slack Off. The amount of weaknesses he boasts probably still makes him not as good as Sableye, but it's possible that defensive teams could want both especially now with MegaSable.
 
As i said in my previous post SW on forry is nice to expand its distribution but it doesn't solve forretress' problems. I am referring to the fact that it is still setup bait of a shitton of threats, it is still unreliable as a spinner and many spinner defoggers and spinners clean its hazards with ease. Plus it is very easy to wear down due to its shitty Sdef and lack of recovery outside of lefties. I think i'm leaning towards voting empoleon because it was vote worthy even the first time it was slated but goodra was just better, with its unique set of immunities/resistances and only 2 weaknesses it is quite easy for it to come in and do what it wants (setting rocks, defog, whatever...).
 
My biggest problem with Forretress is that after doing the job it's brought in for (Web, spinning, etc.), he's essentially handing free turns to the opponent, which is dangerous against almost any playstyle: Offense has the chance to set-up a win-con or Wallbreaker, Stall can bring in something to do annoyance or Cleric duties like Chansey or Alomomola. Shuckle is always played so that as soon as his jobs done, if he hasn't gone down, he has Knock Off or Encore to mess with attempts to exploit him, whereas all Forre can do is switch/Volt out. Even then, both of Forre's common utility moves have immunities that can't be ignored

Volt Switch
- Mega Sceptile
- Garchomp
- Landorus-T (also immune to Web)
- Excadrill
- Gliscor
- Mamoswine
- Diggersby

All of whom appreciate the chance to set up on a forced manual switch, grab momentum with U-Turn of their own, lay rocks, etc.

As for Rapid Spin, I don't think I need to list since Forretress gets shit on by basically every Spinblocker in the tier, on top of having so much competition for hazard removal w/ hazards of its own. Also, a lot of Pokemon can exploit Forretress just because they don't care about or ignore the Web anyway
- Mega Sableye
- Mega Slowbro
- Gengar
- Latios (immediately removes Web and other hazards)
- Bisharp (of course)
- Talonflame
- Un-Mega'd Metagross (Clear Body)
- Mega Pinsir
- Ferrothorn (lay hazards, can passively heal better than Forre. If Forre tries to spin the hazards, Iron Barbs wear it out and fainting means hazards stay)
- Rotom-W (Grabs momentum with its own Volt, burns switches, or can get HP back from healthy switches with Pain Split)
- Aerodactyl (Though admittedly he fears Gyro Ball, but Forretress is already cramped for moveslots)
- Magnezone (Traps any that doesn't coose to run Volt)
- Mega Camerupt (and that switch is all he needs to nuke something)

The big problem with Forretress is that even if he can lay hazards like Web, he's still too easy to steal Momentum from and undo all his work, or simply ignore it and capitalize to burn through the rest of the team.
 
Am I the only one who would run Knock Off on Empoleon? Its damage isn't great, but whatever switches when you force out Rotom/any electric type that it almost seems too good to pass up. In fact, I'd want the enemy's electric type to stay alive as long as there are more enemies to knock off or burn. Nothing will feel safe to switch in.

I'm thinking
Rocks/Defog
Scald
Knock Off
Coverage attack

You do want to hope their replacement switch for the electric type isn't the same every time you put a full stop to their everything so you can knock off more items.

Maybe I'm not making sense; it's very possible.
 
Dilasc said:
Am I the only one who would run Knock Off on Empoleon? Its damage isn't great, but whatever switches when you force out Rotom/any electric type that it almost seems too good to pass up. In fact, I'd want the enemy's electric type to stay alive as long as there are more enemies to knock off or burn. Nothing will feel safe to switch in.

I'm thinking
Rocks/Defog
Scald
Knock Off
Coverage attack

You do want to hope their replacement switch for the electric type isn't the same every time you put a full stop to their everything so you can knock off more items.

Maybe I'm not making sense; it's very possible.
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While you bring up a good point, it's outside of the context of this thread.

Might wanna bring it to the Empoleon discussion thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/empoleon.3496385/
 
OverlordDerp said:
While you bring up a good point, it's outside of the context of this thread.

Might wanna bring it to the Empoleon discussion thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/empoleon.3496385/
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It is not out of context because it has everything to do with Lightningrod and how it'll force switches.

I'll take it a step further: I want to keep their Rotom Wash/Electric Type alive until its their last mon so I can keep using it as a free Empoleon switch to score more Knock Offs/Scalds
 
Karxrida said:
Or, you know, Rotom can just burn you since you can't touch it anyway.
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That's a fair point. If Empoleon switched in on a predicted Volt to get the +1 he can actually beat Rotom-W one on one, and that's with the standard set and hax very much in your favor. But if he isn't at +1, Rotom-W can actually take him down although it will likely cost it all of its Hydro Pump PP. So in that respect, I'm not sure it hard counters Rotom-W the way everyone wants it too.

4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 45-53 (14.8 - 17.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 44-52 (11.8 - 13.9%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
 
It doesn't have to hard counter it, it just needs it to be alive to use it as a free turn. The fact of the matter is, if Rotom is out and the move it makes next turn isn't a switch when Empoleon comes out, then Empoleon gets a free turn to set up rocks or remove them and the worst he'll get is burnt... every SpAtk mon's biggest fear.
 
Dilasc said:
It doesn't have to hard counter it, it just needs it to be alive to use it as a free turn. The fact of the matter is, if Rotom is out and the move it makes next turn isn't a switch when Empoleon comes out, then Empoleon gets a free turn to set up rocks or remove them and the worst he'll get is burnt... every SpAtk mon's biggest fear.
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It has no recovery outside of Lefties and lol Aqua Ring so it hurts it's ability to switch into things repeatedly.
 
hawk1113 said:
Meanwhile, for offense teams Forretress is a bit less passive than Smeargle or Shuckle as a Sticky Web set-up 'mon, but still not great. 90 Attack is okay, but Forretress has no decent STABs (Bug Bite and a soft Gyro Ball is it). He has some surprising physical coverage in EdgeQuake and Explosion, but he's still no Ferrothorn (and obviously no Lando-T, Clefable, Excadrill, Starmie or MBlastoise) in terms of being a setter or a spinner . So basically, he's still a 'mon outclassed in the role's he's built for, trapped between worlds: too soft for defensive teams, not threatening enough for offensive teams. I think Sticky Web is an intriguing move that could really impact the meta, but I think what it needs is a powerful, bulky attacker that can actually abuse the speed drops itself instead of just helping out the teammates. As a designer of theorymons this is a code I'm trying to crack, but Forretress doesn't feel like the 'mon for the job.
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Have you considered Volcarona? Moths are known for their silk, and Volcarona's biggest claim to fame this gen is as something you have in your party when you're breeding.

It has a speed tier that's decent, but not as good as it was; and good but not incredible bulk and power.
 
Wimblesaurus said:
Have you considered Volcarona? Moths are known for their silk, and Volcarona's biggest claim to fame this gen is as something you have in your party when you're breeding.

It has a speed tier that's decent, but not as good as it was; and good but not incredible bulk and power.
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This is a really solid suggestion, the kind of thing you might consider sending to Sun King, Salemence, or one of the other folks in charge of creating slates here ;).
 
If you really want Empoleon to be a Rotom-W counter, just run Toxic. Won't stop ChestoRest versions, but once they burn their Chesto, any time they Rest is a free switch for you.
 
For future suggestions, I think I should explain what I think the biggest problem Sticky Web faces, which Forretress is another example of: It's an asset to offense seen on extremely defensive Pokemon. The reason Galvantula was originally the choice for SW was because it didn't need to die before you could regain momentum.

Sticky Web is best played either on good/suicide leads (compare Mamoswine and Garchomp as Rock setters), or Pokemon that can retain a decent offensive presence to take advantage of the speed drop, like Heracross. Not a suggestion, just an example: speed tier is among his bigger detriments, so slowing opponents down would work to his advantage, and presenting offensive pressure might afford him a switch to lay web.

Forretress and even Shuckle are sub-par because once they lay the Web, there's little they can contribute unless they need to again. Shuckle can present a problem to set-up attempts, but Garchomp flat out limits switch-ins because its offenses mean a free turn is unlikely, whereas the other two need a chance created for them to set up hazards, most popular setters can create those chances themselves.
 
Dilasc said:
It doesn't have to hard counter it, it just needs it to be alive to use it as a free turn. The fact of the matter is, if Rotom is out and the move it makes next turn isn't a switch when Empoleon comes out, then Empoleon gets a free turn to set up rocks or remove them and the worst he'll get is burnt... every SpAtk mon's biggest fear.
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Well as a support mon that has to come in often to setup rocks or defog is not exactly helpful being burnt, especially without recovery it is worn down pretty easily. However empoleon is still a great mon that counters like every electric mon but thundy
 
The problem here is that a pokemon which needs sticky web support to not being destroyed by offensive teams will hardly have a chance to setup the web itself, so it isn't easy a web setter that can abuse the web immediately. Furthermore sticky web is setted only by bug types and they are typically frail pokemon with a shitty typing. I would say heracross, but that Probably doesn't matchup well with its flavor and for heracross would struggle to set it vs offensive teams, so probably yes volcarona is the best option but it doesn't convince me.
Now let's bring the discussion back on the current slate. I wanted to talk about nape, at first i loved this thing because i like playing offensively and i like leads that help you being in a favourable position after a few turns. However after reflecting a bit, while prankster helps it to do the job more safely, it doesn't add a lot to nape effectiveness because nape as a lead already outspeeds basically every non-scarfed lead, so Imo this would end with nape being used more, but only for that sableye shit with prankster wow and recover (slack off). It wouldn't be a good add for the meta at the end of the day, basically like every other prankster
 
I feel like comparing Sableye to Infernape isn't a just comparison, since they are vastly different Pokemon when it comes to being Prankster users. Infernape falls in line more with Thundurus and to a certain degree Tornadus. Offensive Pokemon who can utilize status and Taunt with Prankster. Also, more in line with Thundurus, it can safely boost at least once without fear of Taunt, and with it's myriad of boosting moves such as Calm Mind or Bulk Up, it makes it a versatile Pokemon. The only real similarities to Sableye that Infernape has is that it has Prankster Slack Off, Taunt, and W-o-W, but its closer to Thundurus in the roles it can play in a team.
 
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