Other Pokemon of the Week [Starmie]

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Karxrida said:
Gunk Shot already 2HKOs Clefable and lets you survive a Moonblast (it only does like 30% tops to Naive),
40 Atk Life Orb Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 296-351 (75.1 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 72-86 (25.2 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

As long as I'm here, I made an extremely long and comprehensive guide on how to beat Greninja consistently.

lol

Okay, serious time.
  1. Sac something to it and pray your opponent is stupid enough to leave it in on your obvious Scarfer.
  2. Switch in your Empoleon or Tentacruel and pray it doesn't have the coverage to beat them. If running Porygon2 pray it doesn't give a free switch to something dangerous.
  3. Don't play Offense.
  4. Try Pursuit Trapping it with Bisharp Our Lord and Savior if it isn't locked into being a Dark-type. You can try T-Tar if you want, just pray it isn't running Low Kick.
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You forgot to mention using the based Klefki to priority twave greninja :o
Edit: also alomomomomola is a full counter, with the right EV spread can avoid the 2HKO from Grass Knot / HP Grass iirc (as well as all the other moves).
 
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boltsandbombers said:
You forgot to mention using the based Klefki to priority twave greninja :o
Edit: also alomomomomola is a full counter, with the right EV spread can avoid the 2HKO from Grass Knot / HP Grass iirc (as well as all the other moves).
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252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 250-296 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

looks like there's always a shot
 
trillyntruly said:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 250-296 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

looks like there's always a shot
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I mean that's cool and all, but then you have no physical defense which doesn't seem viable to me.
 
And it becomes a >90% chance to 2HKO if you factor in Stealth Rock.

Even then, Alomomola is passive as shit, so not only does it not fit on very many teams, the best it can do back is go for Scald to fish for burns or try to Toxic you. At least Porygon2 can OHKO Greninja in return.
 
If you keep all possible coverage moves Greninja has access to in mind, the only real counter is Porygon2.
◦Tentacruel doesn't appreciate Extrasensory. Even a full HP / full SpD gets 2HKO'd
◦Empoleon can't take Low Kicks. 40 Atk Greninja has a 80% of 2HKOing Empoleon even with 252 / 252+ bulk
◦Chansey can take Gunk Shots, but if it gets poisoned Greninja has a chance of 2HKOing it after rocks. Even if it lives, what can Chansey do against Greninja?
◦Alomomola doesn't take Grass Knots very well, as it is a 2HKO after rocks
◦AV Azumarill takes any move except Gunk Shot pretty well (Grass Knot on 16/240 Azumarill does max 45%) and OHKOs Greninja in return
◦Special Defensive Jirachi avoids the 2HKO from any move and if Greninja's typing isn't water or fire, Iron Head 2HKOs even without any investment
◦Porygon2 avoids the 3HKO except Low Kick and Gunk Shot if it is fully specially defensive. If it is physically defensive it takes everything well except Hydro Pump. Porygon2 traces Protean and OHKOs or 2HKOs depending on Greninja's current typing

There are many answers to Greninja. Only 12% of the greninja's uses Low Kick and only 15% uses Extrasensory. Tentacruel and Empoleon are good answers to it, but they are not counters because Greninja can run moves that 2HKO both.
On the other side, Greninja has much more checks. A predicted Hydro Pump is a free switch into your Scarfer who can OHKO it in return and even the frail M-Beedrill can live a predicted move and OHKO in return. Once you have a free switch against Greninja from a faster pokemon (like Volt Switch from Rotom-W, which can tank some of Greninja's attacks pretty well or just a switch in on a predicted Ice Beam / Hydro Pump / Whatever it runs) Greninja isn't too big of a problem to deal with
But even then, if you switch in your scarf Keldeo on a predicted Dark Pulse or Ice Beam, it is sooo obvious it is a scarf and most of the Greninja's will switch out, only to wreck again another time whenever it gets a free switch.

TL;DR
Greninja is a threat
Use the almighty Duck
 
SketchUp said:
If you keep all possible coverage moves Greninja has access to in mind, the only real counter is Porygon2.
◦Tentacruel doesn't appreciate Extrasensory. Even a full HP / full SpD gets 2HKO'd
◦Empoleon can't take Low Kicks. 40 Atk Greninja has a 80% of 2HKOing Empoleon even with 252 / 252+ bulk
◦Chansey can take Gunk Shots, but if it gets poisoned Greninja has a chance of 2HKOing it after rocks. Even if it lives, what can Chansey do against Greninja?
◦Alomomola doesn't take Grass Knots very well, as it is a 2HKO after rocks
◦AV Azumarill takes any move except Gunk Shot pretty well (Grass Knot on 16/240 Azumarill does max 45%) and OHKOs Greninja in return
◦Special Defensive Jirachi avoids the 2HKO from any move and if Greninja's typing isn't water or fire, Iron Head 2HKOs even without any investment
◦Porygon2 avoids the 3HKO except Low Kick and Gunk Shot if it is fully specially defensive. If it is physically defensive it takes everything well except Hydro Pump. Porygon2 traces Protean and OHKOs or 2HKOs depending on Greninja's current typing

There are many answers to Greninja. Only 12% of the greninja's uses Low Kick and only 15% uses Extrasensory. Tentacruel and Empoleon are good answers to it, but they are not counters because Greninja can run moves that 2HKO both.
On the other side, Greninja has much more checks. A predicted Hydro Pump is a free switch into your Scarfer who can OHKO it in return and even the frail M-Beedrill can live a predicted move and OHKO in return. Once you have a free switch against Greninja from a faster pokemon (like Volt Switch from Rotom-W, which can tank some of Greninja's attacks pretty well or just a switch in on a predicted Ice Beam / Hydro Pump / Whatever it runs) Greninja isn't too big of a problem to deal with
But even then, if you switch in your scarf Keldeo on a predicted Dark Pulse or Ice Beam, it is sooo obvious it is a scarf and most of the Greninja's will switch out, only to wreck again another time whenever it gets a free switch.

TL;DR
Greninja is a threat
Use the almighty Duck
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Spdef jirachi doesn't avoid the 2hko from any move.. Dark pulse 2hko's fully spdef jirachi. Azumarill - also not an answer. Dies to gunk shot which is on pretty much every greninja. So yeah i just wanted to say that there aren't many answers to greninja at all.
 
Wolfenstein said:
Spdef jirachi doesn't avoid the 2hko from any move.. Dark pulse 2hko's fully spdef jirachi. Azumarill - also not an answer. Dies to gunk shot which is on pretty much every greninja. So yeah i just wanted to say that there aren't many answers to greninja at all.
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Yeah Greninja has so many options for coverage that I forgot one when mentioning Jirachi
With answers I meant pokemon that are faster (scarfers) and can come in with a slow voltturn or a prediction. They aren't counters and often not even good checks, but they can beat Greninja when they are played correctly
 
How do you guys feel about Suicide Lead Ninja?

Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Naive Nature
- Spikes
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Whatever coverage attack you want
- Taunt

Its speed allows it to get off 2 layers of Spikes at will, Taunt is there to annoy Mamo and other SR leads, and its disposability allows it to go mixed with only two attacks -- or not, as is the beauty of Greninja. Even running only one coverage move, it still retains a high level of unpredictability. Really, the only problems I see with this set are:
- Lacks priority, unlike Mamo
- Doesn't hit as hard without Life Orb (for example, Hydro Pump only 2HKOs M-Sable 22% of the time)
- Comes at the opportunity cost of not being able to use LO Ninja on your team.
 
The Big Aristotle said:
How do you guys feel about Suicide Lead Ninja?

Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Naive Nature
- Spikes
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Whatever coverage attack you want
- Taunt

Its speed allows it to get off 2 layers of Spikes at will, Taunt is there to annoy Mamo and other SR leads, and its disposability allows it to go mixed with only two attacks -- or not, as is the beauty of Greninja. Even running only one coverage move, it still retains a high level of unpredictability. Really, the only problems I see with this set are:
- Lacks priority, unlike Mamo
- Doesn't hit as hard without Life Orb (for example, Hydro Pump only 2HKOs M-Sable 22% of the time)
- Comes at the opportunity cost of not being able to use LO Ninja on your team.
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It seems alright but it doesn't have rocks, which is a big let down for a lead considering there are a lot better leads that hit harder and have rocks. Also it's a big waste of a greninja, its not worth using the best mon in ou just to get up some spikes when a lot of things do it better.
 
Wolfenstein said:
It seems alright but it doesn't have rocks, which is a big let down for a lead considering there are a lot better leads that hit harder and have rocks. Also it's a big waste of a greninja, its not worth using the best mon in ou just to get up some spikes when a lot of things do it better.
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Spikes offense and SR offense are two completely different things. It's not fair to just say "this lead is better because it gets rocks." Spikes offense can be better if you have good bird checks elsewhere on your team, and it's easier to fit SR somewhere in the other five team slots.

"Waste of a Greninja" implies that LO Ninja would have to be used somewhere else on the team, which just isn't true. Mixed attackers and suicide leads are completely different things, and this Greninja set would be for teams who need the latter, not the former. This isn't like a Mega slot, where every team almost has to run one of them.
 
Yeah, klefki is honestly better at getting up spikes.
However, greninja does have pros as a spiker. It can set up spikes on switches, and the sheer amount of switches that it forces is just scary. Almost all offensive pokemon in OU are threatened by one of his coverage moves, and to add on to that, you don't even know which moves he has and which moves he doesn't have. Greninja also beats basically every common defogger except for the rare empoleon. Greninja can't get up as many layers of spikes, but it's great at stopping them from being removed, and it can still have a great offensive presence even after it's set up 3 layers of spikes, whereas klefki can easily get up 3 layers of spikes by spamming t-wave, paralyzing everything, and then it can easily set up spikes, but it can't stop them from being removed eventually. Klefki does however have the perk of being able to stop most set up sweepers with prankster t-wave, but can't really do much back.
One cool thing about spikes lead greninja is that it basically guarantees 3 layers of spikes against lead rotom-w.
Scenario:
I lead with sash greninja, my opponent leads with rotom-w
I use spikes, turning me into a ground type, opponent uses volt switch, which greninja is now immune to
I use spikes again, opponent goes for hydro pump, I survive with sash
I set up the final layer of spikes, and then hope that hydro pump misses greninja dies, but it's gotten up 3 layers of spikes.
(note: strategy does not work against people that try to hydro pump on the first turn)

3 layers of spikes is worth a dead greninja, because it's basically going to cost your opponent a turn to remove them, which can give you the crucial turn to set up and then start wrecking havoc with one of your set up sweepers.

I believe that Doughboy had a cool spikes stacking RMT featuring spikes greninja, but that was during the XY meta. ORAS is a lot more fast paced, and greninja doesn't always have the opportunity to set up spikes.
So by now, I believe the only "true" counters to greninja now are P2, empoleon, chansey, and against non extrasensory greninja, tentacruel. Honestly, P2, empoleon and tentacruel are pretty bad, except for certain niches, leading me to believe that greninja is pretty centralizing. Offense got so buffed up this gen, with really strong megas literally made for HO, like mega gallade, mega lopunny, mega salamence mega sceptile etc. They all work very well with greninja, and not to mention that greninja got low kick and gunk shot in ORAS, which allows it to hit it's original counters in XY.
tl;dr, greninja has merits as a spikes stacker, since it forces more switches, giving it the ability to set up spikes multiple times, it actually can do stuff and have offensive presence after it sets up spikes, and it can beat most common defoggers. Greninja is also a perfect fit for HO, because it's extremely fast and has a huge movepool to choose it's moves from.
 
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honestly i think since xy spikes ninja got worse. Its main niches was setting up spikes on things like chansey, now that it can just kill it with low kick setting spikes seems like a waste. Yes it is still good, but usually I'd rather use that extra slot to hit something else with
 
i personally use lo 3 attacks + spikes if i'm gonna use ninja in a spikestack ho team. best of both worlds, sacrificing one coverage move. having said that, fast taunting will always be good, so that set i feel could have some merit. it would catch people off guard, and it would succeed in preventing a lot of leads from doing their thing. i still think ninja has more potential than that, though. and nothing is stopping gengar from fulfilling that role, who has will-o. ninja's pool of coverage options is ridiculous and he gets stab on all of it. you may as well utilize that as best as possible imo.

and yeah i agree. ninja can pretty much beat anything, but it's not uncommon that i switch bisharps into ice beams only to threaten sucker (or same for scizor). scarf tran on an ice beam or gunk shot. etc etc. ninja is always threatening but if you build a team with enough few pseudo-checks, you can generally deal with him. his coverage can't handle everything at once, so he can be easily whittled, forced out, or outright KO'd. but when he comes in, goddamn. da pressure.

EDIT: also i like the strategy of carrying your own ninja on every team so that worst case scenario, it's in the hands of speed tie.
 
Scarf landog is probably one of the best checks to greninja. It can switch in on every move except for ice beam and hydro pump, and threaten it out with earthquake, or just gain some momentum with u-turn. Yeah I definitely agree with you, ninja has the coverage to literally beat EVERYTHING, but you just have to play smart against it and try to force it out. Giving this thing a free switch in is definitely not a good idea.
 
The Big Aristotle said:
Spikes offense and SR offense are two completely different things. It's not fair to just say "this lead is better because it gets rocks." Spikes offense can be better if you have good bird checks elsewhere on your team, and it's easier to fit SR somewhere in the other five team slots.

"Waste of a Greninja" implies that LO Ninja would have to be used somewhere else on the team, which just isn't true. Mixed attackers and suicide leads are completely different things, and this Greninja set would be for teams who need the latter, not the former. This isn't like a Mega slot, where every team almost has to run one of them.
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I didnt mean it like that, i meant you can use greninja for way better things that a suicide lead. Hell, even spikes with life orb + 3 attacks is fine, but suicide lead greninja is like using banded jirachi. It works sure, but its not the best way to use it.

e: banded rachi was a bad example but you get my point
 
The Big Aristotle said:
How do you guys feel about Suicide Lead Ninja?

Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Naive Nature
- Spikes
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Whatever coverage attack you want
- Taunt

Its speed allows it to get off 2 layers of Spikes at will, Taunt is there to annoy Mamo and other SR leads, and its disposability allows it to go mixed with only two attacks -- or not, as is the beauty of Greninja. Even running only one coverage move, it still retains a high level of unpredictability. Really, the only problems I see with this set are:
- Lacks priority, unlike Mamo
- Doesn't hit as hard without Life Orb (for example, Hydro Pump only 2HKOs M-Sable 22% of the time)
- Comes at the opportunity cost of not being able to use LO Ninja on your team.
Click to expand...

I remind you anyway that Taunt is uneffective against Oblivious Mamoswine , which is immune to it. This lead greninja more than anything else may be used in tournaments to lure , seeing that as a great unpredictability , but not certainly in ladder.
 
So to change the topic, what are some good partners for greninja?
In my experience, mega lopunny has been an amazing partner for greninja. I used the core in my first RMT, and they were fantastic. Both hit hard on both sides of the spectrum, both have epic coverage, and both are really fast.
 
ye greninja really appreciates another fast-n-hard hitter as a partner, so that one could dent and the other could clean up. Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade, Talonflame etc. really work well with gren. Partners who can remove hazards are also appreciable, cos you dont want your frog to die to LO recoil+hazards w/o putting in much work, while those who can take priorities like mach punch, bullet punch etc. are also appreciated(read: lando-t, hippo, mandibuzz, scizor).
 
I like partners that take care of whats its coverage lacks.

Example if you run Low kick, gunk, ice beam, dark pulse; Then I would want partners to take care of bulky waters, tentacruel, keldeo, conkeldurr, and ferrothorn.
 
Lil YoshiXD said:
I like partners that take care of whats its coverage lacks.

Example if you run Low kick, gunk, ice beam, dark pulse; Then I would want partners to take care of bulky waters, tentacruel, keldeo, conkeldurr, and ferrothorn.
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Extra support helps, but out of those, Conkeldurr is 2HKOed by Gunk Shot and Ferrothorn is 2HKOed by Low Kick. Scarf Keldeo is definitely something to have support for though since even though it takes 69-84% from Gunk Shot, Keldeo can still outspeed and OHKO. Tentacruel (as you mentioned), bulky Scizor and Mega Venu should also be taken into consideration. Sorry for nitpicking, I just had to straighten that out.

For Greninja partners, I like to have Pokemon that can handle the speedy Megas and Scarf Keldeo and Pokemon that can break through checks for the specific set.

Mega Alakazam seems great for this on paper, as it is tied with Mega Aero as the fastest Mega Pokemon and revenge kills or beats things like Mega Beedrill, Mega Lopunny, Scarf Lando-T, Tentacruel, Ferrothorn, slightly damaged Empoleon (with Focus Blast) and Mega Venusaur. If Scarf Keldeo is locked into Secret Sword or Icy Wind, it can beat it too.

Choice Scarf Latios is also a good offensive partner as it outspeeds and defeats Scarf Keldeo, Mega Venusaur, Tentacruel, every Mega that outspeeds Greninja and can cripple Ferrothorn, Chansey and regular Scizor with Trick.
 
firehusky said:
Care to post any sets that you like using, or any replays?
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Greninja Life Orb
Naive 252 speed, 44 attack, 212 special attack
Gunk Shot
Hydro Pump
Ice Beam
Dark Pulse

Talonflame sky Plate
Adamant, 252 attack, 252 HP, 4 speed
Brave Bird
Flare Blitz
Swords Dance
Roost


Both sets are very standard except my Talonflame who invests fully into bulk where normally he has a lot more speed investment, but that priority imo makes investing to much into speed not really worth it in the long run.
 
252 HP talonflame? That sounds a little bi weird. It already has an awful defensive typing, and isn't bulky at all. I think you could be better off investing in speed, so you can outspeed other max speed talonflames. I've used this core to great success before, and I can testify that it's extremely effective against offense.
 
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