It doesn't need to beat everything to be effective. The most dangerous part of Greninja, is that it's now a wallbreaker. Let's say you send in a solid check to Gren. You send in Tentacruel to check, Gren kills it with Extrasensory. Greninja isn't even needed anymore if Tenta was the only thing holding Gengar back from wreaking havoc on said team. That extends to any check to Gren, if Gren eliminates said check it paves the way for something more threatening to come through and sweep. That's the real borked part about Greninja, by itself it's marginally suspectable. When paired with something like Metagross, Gallade, Lopunny etc. it becomes much more of an issue. There really isn't anything in OU that performs the same level as a hole puncher while also doubling as a fantastic revenge killer.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]
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Protean makes this hardly a issue though and can even run hidden power and hit relatively hard. It's offenses might not look outstanding on paper but protean makes it hit so much harder cause like I said it my previous post it gives Greninja endless more freedom to tailor it's move-set to it's preferences with minimum opportunity cost. Hence why I even think saying it has 4mss to be a overstatement.
You are going to struggle finding other pokemon that do this as well as Greninja. For starters, Greninja gets STAB on whatever coverage move it uses, meaning you actually get a bit more punch than something like Infernape running Earthquake for Tentacruel or whatever. Greninja can run Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Low Kick, Gunk Shot, Hidden Power Fire, Grass Knot, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, Toxic Spikes, Spikes, Hidden Power Grass. It gets STAB on each of those, and each of those moves has a defining impact on what can or cannot counter it. This isn't someone running a gimmick move on X, these are all viable moves that Greninja can easily fit onto its moveset with little real drawback.
I see what you are saying but don't necessarily agree. A lot of the "ban" side has made an argument similar to the following: "at the end of a team-building process, one can look at what holes need to be plugged and fill that offense with Greninja". If this is to be taken as true, then it logically follows that anyone in team preview can likely predict what Greninja is running.
For a game that, overall, prizes prediction and intelligence in its play, I think some of the arguments toward banning Greninja are currently immature (not in the pejorative sense, but in the sense that they aren't "enough"). Folks have even mentioned various counters/checks in posts that call for the ban and say that Greninja's ubiquitousness forcing someone to run one of these counters (namely Porygon2) is evidence for a necessary banning. To me, that is an absolutely silly line of reasoning - isn't the presence of one pokemon causing a rise in usage and viability for a formerly less used one the basis of a metagame? It's on a different scale, but it reminds me a lot of the rise in Magnezone usage followed by the higher usage of Shed Shell. An "unviable" item made viable by a natural shift in the way users play.
So there are many sets Greninja can run. But with absolutely basic probability analysis you can prepare for many of the most commons. Anything that falls outside that should be predicted, scouted, whatever. To me, it is the wrong theory to ban something because it is "difficult" to play around - I think all that means is that a higher level of play is necessary on the part of the person facing down Greninja, or whoever. Frankly, between the ability to predict and sponge attacks coming off a life orb, the presence of hazards, and Greninja's relative inability to switch in (not to mention scarfers that outspeed and ohko it), there's absolutely plenty in the metagame that gives reason not to ban him. But that isn't what I'm arguing against in this post. I am arguing against the line of reasoning that says "I can't predict Greninja, so ban it".
Actually, assuming I have been following the thread correctly, that is largely in a response to the rather poor anti ban posts that make the following statement "Just run Chansey or Porygon2, Greninja isn't broken". Its not a reason to ban Greninja, but its no reason to NOT ban Greninja either.
The current issue is that Greninja (its argued) limits the viability of offense / balance playstyles, simply because in order to have a viable defence against Greninja they need to run passive answers such as Chansey / Porygon2. If this statement is true then you can infer that Greninja is an unhealthy influence on the metagame, but I stress, only if you can prove that the above statement is true, and that offense / balance have no alternative measures to handle Greninja.
I can get behind this, but like everything, its to what degree something is "difficult" to play around. Mega Salamence for instance, was "difficult" to play around, but it was decided that it was so difficult to play around that it was an unhealthy influence. I'm not really comparing Greninja to Mega Salamence, merely pointing out that its going to depend onto the degree of difficulty it is to handle Greninja.
Just top point out a technicality, but Greninja is one of the very few pokemon that technically does not carry coverage. Coverage would be defined as non-STAB moves to hit other types for super effective damage. But as discussed, Greninja gets STAB on everything, effectively having no such thing as coverage, but merely 4 STAB moves.
Let's just let that sink in. It goes a long way in contributing to Greninja's effectiveness. It isn't a standalone example of omnipotence, but because it has the movepool, stats and ability to handle any threat your team is weak to at zero opportunity cost, it is effectively bad for the metagame because it is something you can not prepare for with defensive switch ins. Greninja is diverse enough that no matter how the meta adapts, it can adapt to the adaptations.
Ban Greninja. :(
Let's just let that sink in. It goes a long way in contributing to Greninja's effectiveness. It isn't a standalone example of omnipotence, but because it has the movepool, stats and ability to handle any threat your team is weak to at zero opportunity cost, it is effectively bad for the metagame because it is something you can not prepare for with defensive switch ins. Greninja is diverse enough that no matter how the meta adapts, it can adapt to the adaptations.
Ban Greninja. :(
This is really the smart way people should be looking at it. Some one a bit angry (or angry sounding) worded it like this:
Everyone has to take into account Landorus-Therian, CharizardX, and even a Gliscor when building a team or they will get beat bad.
I think people are just frustrated with the pros greninja...
It has been said many times that Greninja doesn't 6'0 teams, and its frail, and people try to compare it to Mega Lucario, but that really is not the case, Greninja is nowhere near Mega Lucario. Greninja is different than almost all other bans and in its regard it is really closest to Genesect. M Lucario does not have an easily exploitable double weakness and is not going to get 1HKOed by ANYTHING FASTER (unlike Genesect and Greninja respectively). Genescect was the one pokemon people were complaining had no good switch ins, Genescect "2HKoes the entire tier". Genescect "is too fast (especially with a scarf)".
Now I know Genesect is banned and rightfully so, but does Greninja disrupt enough to be ban worthy?
Knowing that helps give us a more accurate understanding of the suspect and helps us judge it and correctly.
Greninja basically has to switch out or get KOed on most priority and most scarfed pokemon (with the LO and residual damage almost anything faster would KO it) and this is a huge weakness most people are overlooking. I know Greninja is switching, there are plenty of hard hitting pokemon that could take advantage of that, predict the switch and punish. Genesect is harder to deal with because it could hit harder, take more hits, less recoil, and better defensive typing so long as not getting hit by a fire move, and works well scarfed so it could even out speed scarfers.
Still on the fence about Greninja. In someways it is acts like Genesect and could annoy and pick apart teams, but on the other hand it could be taken advantage of. Maybe more time will tell, or just be a waste.
Last thing I don't get why people are posting calc for 252 evs in attack for graninja, I know it is to KO Chancey but then it is just too weak to hit other mons.
This has been gone over a thousand times. Protean itself isn't inherently broken, and Frogadier and Kecleon with it aren't either. Hence the best option if Greninja + Protean is deemed to be broken would be to ban Greninja.
I feel like things like this should be put in the OP because it comes up so much.
Banning Protean would extend to every other lower tier (except LC), when there really isn't a need for that. Protean isn't broken in lower tiers, unlike Drizzle and Drought for example. Drizzle centralizes every tier it's allowed in around Politoed and friends, Protean doesn't do the same with Kecleon.
Edit: Ninja'd hard.
Aside from being an amazing, unrivaled, late game cleaner, Greninja has a similar issue to Mega Gengar against offense especially, its the ultimate bluff lure. By no means am I saying it's as broken or mindless as Mega Gengar was but in every test you have to consider how the suspects could be utilized in high level play and how that could put the Greninja user at an inherent and unfair advantage under normal circumstances.
Let's say we're in a tourney, both players are of equal skill, Player One brings pretty standard hazard stacking offense, and let's say it's the mid game and all Player One has left on his team is his Ferrothorn to stop Player Two's Agility Mega Metagross (or other physical sweeper, doesnt really matter what it is) from tearing him apart, and it's also his only switch in to Player Two's Greninja because Greninja is a monster.
Player One is a good player, so naturally he will scout for the HP Fire when it comes time to switch in his Ferrothorn on a Hydro Pump as to not lose his only check to Metagross and at the same time not have to sack everytime Greninja switches in. However, Player Two is also a good player, and all he has to do to bring the odds to his side is simply switch out to bluff he doesn't carry HP Fire.
So now the next time Greninja comes face to face with Ferrothorn, Player One is more likely to feel comfortable staying in and removing one of the major threats to his team, and will be promptly sniped by an HP Fire. This example can apply to a variety of pseudo Greninja checks courtesy of Greninja's treasure trove of an offensive movepool.
Now Player Two pretty much wins the game because he has removed his opponent's only check to both Greninja and Metagross. I don't see how that's very different from what Mega Gengar did when it was first introduced in OU, and what it continues to do in Ubers, on top of the fact that Greninja in and of itself is a threatening sweeper. Situations like this in which Greninja is unfair alone could justify a ban, but it's really just one of many reasons why it should leave the OU metagame, reasons that I'm sure have already been discussed.
Let's say we're in a tourney, both players are of equal skill, Player One brings pretty standard hazard stacking offense, and let's say it's the mid game and all Player One has left on his team is his Ferrothorn to stop Player Two's Agility Mega Metagross (or other physical sweeper, doesnt really matter what it is) from tearing him apart, and it's also his only switch in to Player Two's Greninja because Greninja is a monster.
Player One is a good player, so naturally he will scout for the HP Fire when it comes time to switch in his Ferrothorn on a Hydro Pump as to not lose his only check to Metagross and at the same time not have to sack everytime Greninja switches in. However, Player Two is also a good player, and all he has to do to bring the odds to his side is simply switch out to bluff he doesn't carry HP Fire.
So now the next time Greninja comes face to face with Ferrothorn, Player One is more likely to feel comfortable staying in and removing one of the major threats to his team, and will be promptly sniped by an HP Fire. This example can apply to a variety of pseudo Greninja checks courtesy of Greninja's treasure trove of an offensive movepool.
Now Player Two pretty much wins the game because he has removed his opponent's only check to both Greninja and Metagross. I don't see how that's very different from what Mega Gengar did when it was first introduced in OU, and what it continues to do in Ubers, on top of the fact that Greninja in and of itself is a threatening sweeper. Situations like this in which Greninja is unfair alone could justify a ban, but it's really just one of many reasons why it should leave the OU metagame, reasons that I'm sure have already been discussed.
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This is what I predict the anti ban argument to be:
No Ban
Greninja is on all of my teams and I want to abuse him.
Greninja is not broken because he dies to priority and is revenge killed by scarfers. Disregard the fact that a +6 Azumaril Aqua jet does a maximum of 90%, or that conkeldurr’s mach punch fails to OHKO even when Greninja is weak to fighting. Disregard the fact that EVERYTIME YOU WANT TO BRING IN THE PRIORITY/SCARFER YOU NEED SOMETHING TO EITHER BE SACCED OR TAKE A HUGE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE!!!!!
Back to reasonable discussion, Greninja also has 4MSS. He basically chooses his counters. Honestly who cares that to scout his moveset you need to switch around and potentially lose a poke or two? Then you can bring in the check/counter/revenge kiler and kill him.Switching? What’s that? Some people might argue that when your check/counter is gone you lose but there is a simple answer to that: Don’t wear down you check/counter that has to be brought in every time Greninja is out, take one of Greninja’s attacks + the likely hazard damage. If you can’t do that you are obviously a noob.
No Ban
Greninja is not broken because he dies to priority and is revenge killed by scarfers. Disregard the fact that a +6 Azumaril Aqua jet does a maximum of 90%, or that conkeldurr’s mach punch fails to OHKO even when Greninja is weak to fighting. Disregard the fact that EVERYTIME YOU WANT TO BRING IN THE PRIORITY/SCARFER YOU NEED SOMETHING TO EITHER BE SACCED OR TAKE A HUGE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE!!!!!
Back to reasonable discussion, Greninja also has 4MSS. He basically chooses his counters. Honestly who cares that to scout his moveset you need to switch around and potentially lose a poke or two? Then you can bring in the check/counter/revenge kiler and kill him.
I am very much on the fence about this. While technically Greninja has STAB on any move that he wishes to run, his frailty makes it pretty easy for priority to kill it. (In terms of revenge killing ofc)
I agree with Ab15. Greninja usually has to run 252 speed and 252 special attack in order to make a huge impact. However, Gunk Shot and Low Kick are BOTH physical, and they probably won't OHKO without investment. Physical Greninja is a thing, but the fact is that Greninja is so much better special and without physical investment, I don't see why Gunk Shot and Low Kick are such a big deal. I don't think its worth banning Greninja if he has to invest in physical attack in order to OHKO Chansey.
On the other hand, STAB extrasensory, dark pulse, scald, etc are still dangerous ass threats. I just don't think people should ban Greninja just because Gunk Shot and low Kick were introduced.
I agree with Ab15. Greninja usually has to run 252 speed and 252 special attack in order to make a huge impact. However, Gunk Shot and Low Kick are BOTH physical, and they probably won't OHKO without investment. Physical Greninja is a thing, but the fact is that Greninja is so much better special and without physical investment, I don't see why Gunk Shot and Low Kick are such a big deal. I don't think its worth banning Greninja if he has to invest in physical attack in order to OHKO Chansey.
On the other hand, STAB extrasensory, dark pulse, scald, etc are still dangerous ass threats. I just don't think people should ban Greninja just because Gunk Shot and low Kick were introduced.
The main set is actually 40 Atk/216 SpA/252 Spd. That's enough investment to get the necessary KOs with Gunk and Low, while still hitting stupidly hard on the special side.
The reason Gunk and Low are so good is because in XY, Greninja was already one of the best Pokémon in the tier, only really kept in check by special walls and fairies. ORAS came round and gave it the exact two tools it needed other than like close combat or something to get by those, hence why many people - myself included - find it detrimental and too good for the metagame by this point.
The reason people think Greninja should be banned because Gunk Shot and Low Kick were introduced is because it allows Greninja to beat most of its checks. Usually 40 Attack Naive is run in order to OHKO AV Azumarill with Gunk Shot; a check to Greninja is XY. Most of its checks i.e. Empoleon, Clefable, are rendered useless due to the introduction of these moves, as they no longer fulfill their purpose of checking Greninja.
That is why people, including me, think that Greninja's presence is not at all beneficial to the metagame.
That scenario only shows one player outwitting another, not a particular testament to Greninja's power/versatility/whatever. What I mean is, a similar situation can be replicated by many mons that carries coverage, and is not unique to Greninja. What is it about using luring tactics that makes Greninja broken, and not just being a sorta risky/situational tactic?
See the problem I see with that means that in order for Greninja to truly be "Broken/ubers material" means that it needs to run two moves in order to sweep physically and specially. With that means there are 2 moves left on its slot. 4MSS is bad enough, 2 moveslots left means easier prediction.
I get that Greninja has a lot of options, but some of these arguments contradict each other; physical coverage equals less moves, more moves means less physical coverage.
Oh look it's ninja, pre Oras I ran fwg ice coverage and shit like azu n clef could still check it, fair game. Then it got gunk shot, wheres ur god now,,, Ud have to run obscure ass shit like pory2 and spdef rachi and lickilicky to check this bag of shit. Literally the only thing breaking it is gunk. Low kick has the same power as gunk v chansey and hp fire is better anyways. Spikes has been around too. Either ban gunk shot and make clef as centralizing as before or ban ninja. On the flipside of this ban, azu and clef, esp the latter, r gonna be no brain skilless mons mindlessly spammed everywhere once again. However thats a fair trade off considering ninja either shits on ur team if u don't use it or is on ur team every other time. The tru heir to rp gene ban this aids
Edit: to the niggas sayin 4mss, it only ever needed fire water ice. Last was extra, pulse, grass, spikes etc and now gunk. Where's 4mss? That's the best coverage it'll get and it wrecks the metagame
Edit: to the niggas sayin 4mss, it only ever needed fire water ice. Last was extra, pulse, grass, spikes etc and now gunk. Where's 4mss? That's the best coverage it'll get and it wrecks the metagame
Greninja is just a Pokémon that has too much coverage. Thanks to Gunk Shot alone, many bulky offensive teams are forced to run Empoleon or Venusaur unless they want to instantly lose a Pokémon. As if that wasn't enough, the former isn't even a reliable counter because Greninja can easily carry Low Kick and clean 2HKO Empoleon.
Now, some of you might be thinking "well Greninja cannot beat the entire tier with 4 moves, therefore it has 4MSS. However, I disagree. 4MSS is used for Pokemon that need more than 4 moves in order to beat a huge portion of the metagame, but with 4 they have to choose what huge portion according to the team. A great example of this is Volcarona, whom has to choose between Hidden Power Ground and Hidden Power Ice in order to take out significant threats. For example; without Hidden Power Ground, Volcarona will get hard walled by most fire type threats such as Heatran and Mega Charizard X, but without Hidden Power Ice, Volcarona gets shutdown by most dragons. I know Volcarona has many other issues, but the point was to define what 4MSS is.
Greninja, on the other hand, does not. This is because, while Greninja has to choose what move needs to be on its last slot in order for it to take out a certain threat, that's the point, a CERTAIN THREAT. Low Kick, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse alone is able to take out a plethora of the metagame, but when you have a Pokemon that can decide between Gunk Shot for Clefable, Extrasensory for Mega Venusaur and Keldeo, Hidden Power Fire for Ferrothorn and Scizor, and even just Hydro Pump for raw damage, you have a Pokemon that just forces a team to carry a plethora of checks just so they stand a chance. Ban.
Now, some of you might be thinking "well Greninja cannot beat the entire tier with 4 moves, therefore it has 4MSS. However, I disagree. 4MSS is used for Pokemon that need more than 4 moves in order to beat a huge portion of the metagame, but with 4 they have to choose what huge portion according to the team. A great example of this is Volcarona, whom has to choose between Hidden Power Ground and Hidden Power Ice in order to take out significant threats. For example; without Hidden Power Ground, Volcarona will get hard walled by most fire type threats such as Heatran and Mega Charizard X, but without Hidden Power Ice, Volcarona gets shutdown by most dragons. I know Volcarona has many other issues, but the point was to define what 4MSS is.
Greninja, on the other hand, does not. This is because, while Greninja has to choose what move needs to be on its last slot in order for it to take out a certain threat, that's the point, a CERTAIN THREAT. Low Kick, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse alone is able to take out a plethora of the metagame, but when you have a Pokemon that can decide between Gunk Shot for Clefable, Extrasensory for Mega Venusaur and Keldeo, Hidden Power Fire for Ferrothorn and Scizor, and even just Hydro Pump for raw damage, you have a Pokemon that just forces a team to carry a plethora of checks just so they stand a chance. Ban.
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Well, I think Greninja shouldn't go to Ubers because, despite many of it's old counters becoming checks, there's always the possibility of using a mixed wall (I.E. Cresselia) or make the classic sacrifice of a member not very important to the situation of the match and use a good revenge killer (As would scizor be in the case of Greninja's ice beam, otherwise, any pokemon that exceeds the speed of greninja can be a perfect counter, given it's low defenses). It's true that Greninja has an extense movepool to abuse stab with, primarily Ice beam, Hydro Pump, Hidden power Fire / Grass, Dark Pulse, Low Kick and Gunk Shot, But this does not make it invincible, it's true that it may be annoying... but if the right predictions are made, you can say "Good Game".
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The thing is, this argument contains several reasons WHY Greninja could objectively be broken. Firstly, you make the argument that there is always the possibility of using a special and physical wall; this shows that Greninja has limited the use of HO teams in the ORAS OU meta, which is true. Not to mention most of the things that 'wall' Greninja aren't even even OU, but that's another story. Secondly, you state that you could "make classic sacrifice of a member of a not very important in the team", implying that you should sac a pokemon to Greninja and bring in something to revenge kill it. However, the counter-argument is that, Greninja is amazingly fast, and most of the things that outspeed it, are either Mega's or Scarfed. Mega's and Scarfers can reliably revenge-kill Greninja, but what stops Greninja from switching out, and then coming back in, and getting another kill? Since every move is STAB, it hits like a truck, so whatever switches in to take the hit isn't going to eat it up. Thirdly, you state that the primarily used moves are Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, HP Fire/Grass, Dark Pulse, Low Kick and Gunk Shot; however, what pokemon is prepared for all of these moves? Three off the top of my head, being Chansey, Alomomola and Porygon2 which beat it 1v1. The point is, you don't know the FOUR MOVES it carries. It could be Extrasensory for all you know. Making correct predictions is incredibly hard with a movepool that diverse. That is the main proponent of why Greninja should be banned. Its versatility.
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It can be anything he wants thanks to Protean.
I think the argument that "Greninja shouldn't be banned because it can carry only 4 moves" is a null and void argument. Now before you come at me for my neck. Hear me out. These are some reasons why we would consider it for a ban.
1. Team building with Gren. Gunk Shot and Low Kick are what broke the mold. I think a lot of people here simply think that Gren is a poke that you "just use the standard sets". That is a mistakened concept. Gren is a very flexible pokemon. In fact, when you are building a team and you opt to use Gren, you should always moveset build it LAST. Why? Because it's near flawless coverage and it's flexibility that allows you to cover things that your team is weak to. Other than Ice Beam being near mandatory, the others are up to your own discretion (since it gets STAB on every move and has an insane speed tier) and THIS is what makes the 4mss work FOR greninja instead of against him.
2. Team building against Gren. A lot of people will tell you that it is very hard to team build against Gren simply because there is no "true" counter to it. Certain mons like Tentacruel will counter Gren if they don't carry Esens. Which brings about my point 1. It's flawless coverage allows it to mask what it's exact target is. People often think "Oh, Gren has Gunk Shot to deal with fairies, lemme switch into my Spdef AV TTar or Heatran real quick" only to be struck by low kick. This results in an increase in usage of mons that are hardly seen in OU because they are not as good in OU as they are in the lower tiers. Examples of such are P2 and Empoleon. With the latter's spdef set gaining popularity due to it's ability to set and control hazards.
40 Atk Life Orb Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 452-536 (112.1 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
3. It is creating an environment which there is an unequal playing field for particular playstyles. The spikes/tspike set kills stall. The 4 attack set causes a lot of strain on balance and offence because you have to force yourself to pack checks and this deviates from the aim of the playstyle. There should always be a platform where all playstyles have equal chance to shine and with Greninja still around this is going to be hard to achieve.
I am not sure as to whether I would vote for a ban or not. But I willl come to a conclusion very soon
Edit: By definition, 4MSS means that something essentially requires more than four moves to do its job. Mega Metagross is a good example - MMeta would love to have all of Meteor Mash all Zen Headbutt for STABS, Earthquake, Grass Knot, Ice Punch, Hammer Arm for coverage and Agility for Sweeping but MMeta can't and have to drop either Grass Knot/Earthquake or Agility (usually Agility), which makes them less effective overall (still useful, but not as useful as they would be otherwise).
This doesn't apply to Greninja in any way, shape or form. It doesn't need four moves. It doesn't even need three moves. You could run only Ice Beam and Gunk Shot and still shit all over 4/5ths of the damn meta. The rest of your moveslots are only used to lure in and take out whatever troubles the rest of your team, and if you don't need to do that, you can just spam U-Turn or set up Spikes instead. That's not 4MSS, that's insanity.
1. Team building with Gren. Gunk Shot and Low Kick are what broke the mold. I think a lot of people here simply think that Gren is a poke that you "just use the standard sets". That is a mistakened concept. Gren is a very flexible pokemon. In fact, when you are building a team and you opt to use Gren, you should always moveset build it LAST. Why? Because it's near flawless coverage and it's flexibility that allows you to cover things that your team is weak to. Other than Ice Beam being near mandatory, the others are up to your own discretion (since it gets STAB on every move and has an insane speed tier) and THIS is what makes the 4mss work FOR greninja instead of against him.
2. Team building against Gren. A lot of people will tell you that it is very hard to team build against Gren simply because there is no "true" counter to it. Certain mons like Tentacruel will counter Gren if they don't carry Esens. Which brings about my point 1. It's flawless coverage allows it to mask what it's exact target is. People often think "Oh, Gren has Gunk Shot to deal with fairies, lemme switch into my Spdef AV TTar or Heatran real quick" only to be struck by low kick. This results in an increase in usage of mons that are hardly seen in OU because they are not as good in OU as they are in the lower tiers. Examples of such are P2 and Empoleon. With the latter's spdef set gaining popularity due to it's ability to set and control hazards.
40 Atk Life Orb Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 452-536 (112.1 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
3. It is creating an environment which there is an unequal playing field for particular playstyles. The spikes/tspike set kills stall. The 4 attack set causes a lot of strain on balance and offence because you have to force yourself to pack checks and this deviates from the aim of the playstyle. There should always be a platform where all playstyles have equal chance to shine and with Greninja still around this is going to be hard to achieve.
I am not sure as to whether I would vote for a ban or not. But I willl come to a conclusion very soon
Edit: By definition, 4MSS means that something essentially requires more than four moves to do its job. Mega Metagross is a good example - MMeta would love to have all of Meteor Mash all Zen Headbutt for STABS, Earthquake, Grass Knot, Ice Punch, Hammer Arm for coverage and Agility for Sweeping but MMeta can't and have to drop either Grass Knot/Earthquake or Agility (usually Agility), which makes them less effective overall (still useful, but not as useful as they would be otherwise).
This doesn't apply to Greninja in any way, shape or form. It doesn't need four moves. It doesn't even need three moves. You could run only Ice Beam and Gunk Shot and still shit all over 4/5ths of the damn meta. The rest of your moveslots are only used to lure in and take out whatever troubles the rest of your team, and if you don't need to do that, you can just spam U-Turn or set up Spikes instead. That's not 4MSS, that's insanity.
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Surprised with all of the ban posts, but i can see it as you guys usually lose to something and cry about it on here i mean discuss it here.
Aside from that, im on the fence with banning it, but im gonna say Do not ban.
One thing i noticed is that you guys say it has trouble with its amazing coverage. Heres the problem, it can only run four moves. These moves arent that powerful even off of STAB, as most of his moves do less than 100 BP. Now, you might be thinking, LO increases it. Yes, it does, but the residual damage is bad. The usual set it runs is Ice Beam,GShot,Hydro and Ice Beam. Empoleon, Chansey, Keldeo, Scarf Lando, etc. all can revenge kill or counter it.
Low Kick? now he has trouble with other mons. His coverage is good, no doubt, but it isnt amazing.
its speed is high but gets destroyed by prio and scarfers, both common on HO teams.
Stall can take it on with TWave and/or SpDef walls.
But, i want to really go in depth. The reason why you guys want him to be banned is cause of its coverage and speed. Sure, you need to give up a mon in most cases, but with almost every playstyle there is something to take out Greninja. For the better good, if we keep Greninja unbanned also, i honestly think the meta wont be so crappy as it was before. When people adapt to Greninja (which in most cases i didnt see) there will be a different perspective.
Greninja cant switch into attacks either, he works as a revenge killer. His fraility makes him a non ubers mon.
The guy isnt even as broken, with a not so impressive attack stats and horrible defensive stats. With easy ways to threaten out of the field, like Prio, Scarfers, etc. this guy can actually be taken out. Just dont ban him, cause in the future the meta will be worse when greninja will be banned cause you guys obviously want a ban.
Also lets note that it isnt overcentralizing at all, its only a mere thought in the mind of decent teambuilders, and they can slap on an Empoleon or a keldeo to cripple it.
Aside from that, im on the fence with banning it, but im gonna say Do not ban.
One thing i noticed is that you guys say it has trouble with its amazing coverage. Heres the problem, it can only run four moves. These moves arent that powerful even off of STAB, as most of his moves do less than 100 BP. Now, you might be thinking, LO increases it. Yes, it does, but the residual damage is bad. The usual set it runs is Ice Beam,GShot,Hydro and Ice Beam. Empoleon, Chansey, Keldeo, Scarf Lando, etc. all can revenge kill or counter it.
Low Kick? now he has trouble with other mons. His coverage is good, no doubt, but it isnt amazing.
its speed is high but gets destroyed by prio and scarfers, both common on HO teams.
Stall can take it on with TWave and/or SpDef walls.
But, i want to really go in depth. The reason why you guys want him to be banned is cause of its coverage and speed. Sure, you need to give up a mon in most cases, but with almost every playstyle there is something to take out Greninja. For the better good, if we keep Greninja unbanned also, i honestly think the meta wont be so crappy as it was before. When people adapt to Greninja (which in most cases i didnt see) there will be a different perspective.
Greninja cant switch into attacks either, he works as a revenge killer. His fraility makes him a non ubers mon.
The guy isnt even as broken, with a not so impressive attack stats and horrible defensive stats. With easy ways to threaten out of the field, like Prio, Scarfers, etc. this guy can actually be taken out. Just dont ban him, cause in the future the meta will be worse when greninja will be banned cause you guys obviously want a ban.
Also lets note that it isnt overcentralizing at all, its only a mere thought in the mind of decent teambuilders, and they can slap on an Empoleon or a keldeo to cripple it.
Okay I've been waiting for this to come for a while. Greninja is flat out BROKEN. Nothing can switch in on it with the addition of Low Kick+Gunk shot. These additions make it so that it can hit almost every single pokemon in the game super effectively or with a strong neutral hit. It has 0 switchins. When I say 0, I mean depending on the set. Of course a full out special set might get walled by chansey, or depending on its moveset Mega Venusaur, etc. The problem with greninja is the fact that it can run any combination of coverage to hit its threats. Dark Pulse+Ice beam+Gunk shot+ Coverage is basically the normal set I've been seeing. Water coverage with hydro isn't even necessary! With the addition of new moves it can go mixed, special, and now the physical sets are viable (slightly less so but surprising). Greninja has to be a considerable factor while teambuilding and is very centralizing on the meta. If my team is weak to greninja I can basically just scrap it, and it places a huge stress on your options for teambuilding.
Relevant Calcs:
Venusaur a problem? Can't switch in on Extrasensory!
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 203-242 (55.7 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Porygon2 a counter you say? With a bit of prior damage a physical greninja 2HKOs it. Physical Greninja isn't viable? It is becoming a threat that may be needed to deal with.
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 151-179 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- 52.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Chansey? Hahaha... Not what I would call eating it up...
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And of course the Empoleon one:
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 195-229 (52.4 - 61.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
NOT EVEN EMPOLEON IS SAFE! HIDE YOUR CHILDREN!
In all seriousness though...
Again some of these attacks aren't posted with ideal sets, but this is a figure of what Greninja can do. It is ABSOLUTELY BROKEN in almost EVERY SINGLE WAY. If you want to beat it you have to sac a poke and bring a scarfer in, or pray that it doesn't carry X move that can kill your switch in. The addition of Gunk shot and Low kick took away some of its biggest threats and made it a lot better. Ban worthy? ABSOLUTELY BAN. It is broken beyond belief and should not be able to threaten the OU meta. I don't really like laddering on Showdown, I mainly use it to test out teams, and I have found that Greninja is a huge threat and toxic to team building. I will absolutely ladder in support of this ban. Any other thoughts that anybody wants to add on feel free!
Relevant Calcs:
Venusaur a problem? Can't switch in on Extrasensory!
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 203-242 (55.7 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Porygon2 a counter you say? With a bit of prior damage a physical greninja 2HKOs it. Physical Greninja isn't viable? It is becoming a threat that may be needed to deal with.
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 151-179 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- 52.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Chansey? Hahaha... Not what I would call eating it up...
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And of course the Empoleon one:
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 195-229 (52.4 - 61.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
NOT EVEN EMPOLEON IS SAFE! HIDE YOUR CHILDREN!
In all seriousness though...
Again some of these attacks aren't posted with ideal sets, but this is a figure of what Greninja can do. It is ABSOLUTELY BROKEN in almost EVERY SINGLE WAY. If you want to beat it you have to sac a poke and bring a scarfer in, or pray that it doesn't carry X move that can kill your switch in. The addition of Gunk shot and Low kick took away some of its biggest threats and made it a lot better. Ban worthy? ABSOLUTELY BAN. It is broken beyond belief and should not be able to threaten the OU meta. I don't really like laddering on Showdown, I mainly use it to test out teams, and I have found that Greninja is a huge threat and toxic to team building. I will absolutely ladder in support of this ban. Any other thoughts that anybody wants to add on feel free!
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