Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

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Dragonite: B+ to A-
The original generation 1 Dragon is definitely the best dragon dancer outside of the Ubers tier. Dragonite takes the role of setup sweeper with dragon dance, similar to Zygarde, Mega Charizard X, Salamence, Even [sometimes] the Altarias and takes it to a whole new level. I'm going to be comparing Dragonite to Zygarde throughout this post, due to the fact that if you wanted a Ddance sweeper that's viable in OU, it really comes down to these two if you want to save that oh-so-precious mega slot. [Or Salemence if you're crazy]
As someone mentioned before, Zygarde gets Dragon Dance and Extemespeed. Dragonite also gets Dragon dance and extremespeed. However, Dragonite has the insane base 134 atk, but Zygarde has only base 100. However, Dragonite gets the all-powerful Multiscale ability, which pretty much makes Zygarde useless. What Multiscale does is when you're at full HP, you take 1/2 of the damage. Which means you can switch in on a super-effective move [So long as it doesn't crit] and then strike back. Here's a set:

Dragonite WeaKness Policy
Adamant nature
Dragon dance
Extremespeed
Outrage
Earthquake/Iron head
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4HP

You use Eathquake or Iron head depending on if you're concerned about fairies, since Dragonite doesn't really switch out once it starts boosting and Multiscale breaks. Due to Multiscale, your opponent should try to fire off a super-effective hit to OHKO, [or use a really bad hit to take down Multiscale, but then you start boosting anyways] which if it's the former, weakness policy will activate. Since Multiscale was there, you're probably around 50%, so use Dragon dance. Now, you're at +3 Attack, +2 Special attack, and +1 Speed. Time to start sweeping! Also, Talonflame doesn't outspeed Espeed. So if your opponent tries that, surprise them with Extremespeed! Dragonite is an amazing setup sweeper, capable of outspeeding everything with Extremespeed, and gifted with a perfect ability. Dragonite deserves more than B+, so let's move it up to A-.

Also supporting:
Clefable for S
 
thegrovylekid said:
View attachment 33606
Dragonite: B+ to A-
The original generation 1 Dragon is definitely the best dragon dancer outside of the Ubers tier. Dragonite takes the role of setup sweeper with dragon dance, similar to Zygarde, Mega Charizard X, Salamence, Even [sometimes] the Altarias and takes it to a whole new level. I'm going to be comparing Dragonite to Zygarde throughout this post, due to the fact that if you wanted a Ddance sweeper that's viable in OU, it really comes down to these two if you want to save that oh-so-precious mega slot. [Or Salemence if you're crazy]
As someone mentioned before, Zygarde gets Dragon Dance and Extemespeed. Dragonite also gets Dragon dance and extremespeed. However, Dragonite has the insane base 134 atk, but Zygarde has only base 100. However, Dragonite gets the all-powerful Multiscale ability, which pretty much makes Zygarde useless. What Multiscale does is when you're at full HP, you take 1/2 of the damage. Which means you can switch in on a super-effective move [So long as it doesn't crit] and then strike back. Here's a set:

Dragonite WeaKness Policy
Adamant nature
Dragon dance
Extremespeed
Outrage
Earthquake/Iron head
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4HP

You use Eathquake or Iron head depending on if you're concerned about fairies, since Dragonite doesn't really switch out once it starts boosting and Multiscale breaks. Due to Multiscale, your opponent should try to fire off a super-effective hit to OHKO, [or use a really bad hit to take down Multiscale, but then you start boosting anyways] which if it's the former, weakness policy will activate. Since Multiscale was there, you're probably around 50%, so use Dragon dance. Now, you're at +3 Attack, +2 Special attack, and +1 Speed. Time to start sweeping! Also, Talonflame doesn't outspeed Espeed. So if your opponent tries that, surprise them with Extremespeed! Dragonite is an amazing setup sweeper, capable of outspeeding everything with Extremespeed, and gifted with a perfect ability. Dragonite deserves more than B+, so let's move it up to A-.

Also supporting:
Clefable for S
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Best dragon dancer outside of ubers? Charizard X, (Mega) Gyarados, and Altaria would like to have a word with you. Dragonite really isn't as good as it once was, and like Cyberpunk said, wp dnite is bad. Most viable dnite is cb, dd sets are pretty outclassed tbh. You say you want to save your mega slot? There are still other physical sweepers out there that are mostly better that don't rely on sr being off the field to function, like Garchomp, landorus, etc.
 
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Reverb said:
I think Clefable is good as is. I'm not going to restate all its positive traits, because I think you said so nicely. After all, Clefable is an excellent Pokemon. That being said, it does not apply the same sort of pressure as S-rank Pokemon. Whereas Mega-Metagross can conceivably sweep an entire team with minimal effort, and Mega-Sableye shuts down SR and cannot be phased, Clefable does neither. Its base 95 Sp Atk is merely decent. Moreover, its stats are objectively mediocre. It boasts 90/73/90 defenses. These are not terrible, but they are hardly insurmountable. And keep in mind, Clefable, while trying to set up, is highly susceptible to Taunt and Roar. That fact the very common Heatran absolutely walls its most viable set is a major thorn in its side. (While I am aware that Clefable beats Heatran without Roar/Taunt, most sets will run one of those moves.) In the end, Clefable is rather easy to prepare against, and any competent player will have a consistent way to counter/check it. I realize that Clefable's true potential lies in the late game, when said check/counter is handled, but S-ranks like Lopunny-M, Sableye-M, and Metagross-M don't need to wait until the end of the battle to be a threat. They're a terror to face whether its turn 1 or turn 100. Keep Clefable at A+.
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I disagree. Yeah Clefable's base stats are lacking, but the lack of natural bulk is easily made up for by its abilities + typing. In fact I would say that is one of the hardest defensive pokemon to remove in the tier. Clefable has no exploitable weaknesses, hardly any Pokemon carry Poison or Steel coverage moves that could sufficiently harm it, so it can't be lured in and eliminated by a surprise kill move. It has reliable recovery on both Unaware and Magic Guard sets. Both of those abilties counteract one of two major problems that plague the majority of defensive pokemon; Magic Guard covers residual damage and Unaware covers boosting sweepers.

I don't really understand why you are saying Clefable isn't a threat until lategame. Clefable doesn't have to go all out and setup a Calm Mind right in the begining of the game. It has a ton of utility just checking stuff midgame, being a major block to an opponent who has to break it, and harassing them with chip damage from Moonblast. Of course you aren't on toes Clefable can pull off a CM midgame and win.

Heatran isn't a total block to Clefable. Taunt Heatran loses to those that use Thunder Wave because Clefable can use Softboiled or CM for a turn when it is faster. Heatran is also capable of losing to Clefable if it loses Leftovers from Knock Off because over the course of the match its going to get worn down much faster than Clefable. Not to mention Focus Blast is a totally viable move to run on the CM set that really hurts Heatran even after a Calm Mind.

I think what really defines an S-rank pokemon is that if they are exploitable in any way. Bisharp's has to rely upon on unreliable Sucker Punch, Zard / Talonflame has to have Rocks support, Lati@s can be Pursuit trapped, Keldeo has to rely upon prediction with its Choiced Specs set, etc. These exploits let opponents play around the pokemon in question and offer them opportunities to put the game on their terms. IMO Clefable isn't one of those types of Pokemon. Clefable is always a pokemon that keeps the opponent on its toes due to the threat of CM, huge movepool, and inability to be worn down easily. We have seen it pull wins out of its ass so many times *cough*telegod vs bloo*cough* that to keep out of S-rank would not be indicative of its potential. So yeah Clefable for S n_n

edit: Reverb obviously its on the switchin to clefable or its coming from another pokemon not when its going to get taunted right in the face lol so it is possible
 
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thegrovylekid said:
View attachment 33606
Dragonite: B+ to A-
The original generation 1 Dragon is definitely the best dragon dancer outside of the Ubers tier. Dragonite takes the role of setup sweeper with dragon dance, similar to Zygarde, Mega Charizard X, Salamence, Even [sometimes] the Altarias and takes it to a whole new level. I'm going to be comparing Dragonite to Zygarde throughout this post, due to the fact that if you wanted a Ddance sweeper that's viable in OU, it really comes down to these two if you want to save that oh-so-precious mega slot. [Or Salemence if you're crazy]
As someone mentioned before, Zygarde gets Dragon Dance and Extemespeed. Dragonite also gets Dragon dance and extremespeed. However, Dragonite has the insane base 134 atk, but Zygarde has only base 100. However, Dragonite gets the all-powerful Multiscale ability, which pretty much makes Zygarde useless. What Multiscale does is when you're at full HP, you take 1/2 of the damage. Which means you can switch in on a super-effective move [So long as it doesn't crit] and then strike back. Here's a set:

Dragonite WeaKness Policy
Adamant nature
Dragon dance
Extremespeed
Outrage
Earthquake/Iron head
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4HP

You use Eathquake or Iron head depending on if you're concerned about fairies, since Dragonite doesn't really switch out once it starts boosting and Multiscale breaks. Due to Multiscale, your opponent should try to fire off a super-effective hit to OHKO, [or use a really bad hit to take down Multiscale, but then you start boosting anyways] which if it's the former, weakness policy will activate. Since Multiscale was there, you're probably around 50%, so use Dragon dance. Now, you're at +3 Attack, +2 Special attack, and +1 Speed. Time to start sweeping! Also, Talonflame doesn't outspeed Espeed. So if your opponent tries that, surprise them with Extremespeed! Dragonite is an amazing setup sweeper, capable of outspeeding everything with Extremespeed, and gifted with a perfect ability. Dragonite deserves more than B+, so let's move it up to A-.

Also supporting:
Clefable for S
Click to expand...

Adding the arguments of the 2 last posts, you have to think about the rise of Fairy type when Greninja (hopefully) get banned, there's no reason to think about the new meta will favour DD Dragonite. You have to choose (according to your set) between dealing with steel types or fairy types. And M-Sab, the big thread nowadays,enters freely to an ES. Here's the calc

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk burned Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252+ Atk burned Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 143-168 (47 - 55.2%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Seems like you can give 2HKO if you get the set up and avoid the burn 1 turn. Too many conditions. M-Altaria is more bulky, got better typing defensive and offensive, and he may take one moonblast after stealth rocks

[EDIT] Dragonite B+----> B
[EDIT 2] It's true, Dragonite does not take a mega slot, but Moxie Gyarados is still a better Dragon Dancer
 
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doughboy said:
I disagree. Yeah Clefable's base stats are lacking, but the lack of natural bulk is easily made up for by its abilities + typing. In fact I would say that is one of the hardest defensive pokemon to remove in the tier. Clefable has no exploitable weaknesses, hardly any Pokemon carry Poison or Steel coverage moves that could sufficiently harm it, so it can't be lured in and eliminated by a surprise kill move. It has reliable recovery on both Unaware and Magic Guard sets. Both of those abilties counteract one of two major problems that plague the majority of defensive pokemon; Magic Guard covers residual damage and Unaware covers boosting sweepers.

I don't really understand why you are saying Clefable isn't a threat until lategame. Clefable doesn't have to go all out and setup a Calm Mind right in the begining of the game. It has a ton of utility just checking stuff midgame, being a major block to an opponent who has to break it, and harassing them with chip damage from Moonblast. Of course you aren't on toes Clefable can pull off a CM midgame and win.

Heatran isn't a total block to Clefable. Taunt Heatran loses to those that use Thunder Wave because Clefable can use Softboiled or CM for a turn when it is faster. Heatran is also capable of losing to Clefable if it loses Leftovers from Knock Off because over the course of the match its going to get worn down much faster than Clefable. Not to mention Focus Blast is a totally viable move to run on the CM set that really hurts Heatran even after a Calm Mind.

I think what really defines an S-rank pokemon is that if they are exploitable in any way. Bisharp's has to rely upon on unreliable Sucker Punch, Zard / Talonflame has to have Rocks support, Lati@s can be Pursuit trapped, Keldeo has to rely upon prediction with its Choiced Specs set, etc. These exploits let opponents play around the pokemon in question and offer them opportunities to put the game on their terms. IMO Clefable isn't one of those types of Pokemon. Clefable is always a pokemon that keeps the opponent on its toes due to the threat of CM, huge movepool, and inability to be worn down easily. We have seen it pull wins out of its ass so many times *cough*telegod vs bloo*cough* that to keep out of S-rank would not be indicative of its potential. So yeah Clefable for S n_n
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What you said about the Thunder Wave set is inaccurate. After all, Clefable would need to get a para on Heatran first, which would be impossible because of Taunt. I've already said my bit, so I'd appreciate some salient insights from another user (without being redundant).
 
Reverb said:
What you said about the Thunder Wave set is inaccurate. After all, Clefable would need to get a para on Heatran first, which would be impossible because of Taunt. I've already said my bit, so I'd appreciate some salient insights from another user (without being redundant).
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Clefable comes in on something it walls ex Latias. T-wave on obvious Heatran switch in. Not like spamming T-wave early game is ever a bad option.

Clefable can switch in many times throughout a match due to its good typing, immune to entry hazards and status, and reliable recovery. It doesn't have to beat heatran in one sitting it can wear it down throughout the match
 
Lil YoshiXD said:
Clefable comes in on something it walls ex Latias. T-wave on obvious Heatran switch in. Not like spamming T-wave early game is ever a bad option.

Clefable can switch in many times throughout a match due to its good typing, immune to entry hazards and status, and reliable recovery. It doesn't have to beat heatran in one sitting it can wear it down throughout the match
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Clefable really cannot wear Heatran down that much unboosted. Clefable itself uninvested can only do 8.3% damage to an uninvested Heatran with Moonblast, and even less against bulkier variants. Furthermore, Moonblast does less to Specially Defensive variants then what Heatran can recover from Leftovers, meaning it really is not wearing Heatran down that much. If you want to wear Heatran down, you are better off with something that can hit it harder or even lure it out, such as Latios, who has access to both Surf and Earthquake so that it can do a lot of damage to Heatran for a teammate like Zard X or Talonflame to finish the job.
 
Alfalfa said:
Clefable really cannot wear Heatran down that much unboosted. Clefable itself uninvested can only do 8.3% damage to an uninvested Heatran with Moonblast, and even less against bulkier variants. Furthermore, Moonblast does less to Specially Defensive variants then what Heatran can recover from Leftovers, meaning it really is not wearing Heatran down that much. If you want to wear Heatran down, you are better off with something that can hit it harder or even lure it out, such as Latios, who has access to both Surf and Earthquake so that it can do a lot of damage to Heatran for a teammate like Zard X or Talonflame to finish the job.
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After initial para:

It comes on latias or something else latter in game.
Sets up CM
Heatran comes in
You CM again
Heatran either taunts you or is para'd.
then you proceed to attack:
+2 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 34-41 (8.8 - 10.6%)
weak but so is heatran:
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 60-72 (15.2 - 18.2%)

Once taunt wears off you can heal or set up more CMs.
 
Lil YoshiXD said:
After initial para:

It comes on latias or something else latter in game.
Sets up CM
Heatran comes in
You CM again
Heatran either taunts you or is para'd.
then you proceed to attack:
+2 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 34-41 (8.8 - 10.6%)
weak but so is heatran:
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 60-72 (15.2 - 18.2%)

Once taunt wears off you can heal or set up more CMs.
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If you are using Thunder Wave / Calm Mind / Moonblast / Soft-Boiled, you will hard lose to Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Mega Scizor, and pretty much everything else that is covered by Fire Blast. Sure, you can threaten some of these threats with paralysis, but you are still hard checked or even countered by these threats.
 
Mistress Remilia said:
367.gif

Huntail for D/C- rank, Gorebyss for Unranked.

With ORAS, Huntail can now use Sucker Punch + Baton Pass/Shell Smash/Waterfall, making it much harder to kill/prevent him passing than its counterpart Gorebyss.
Like Gorebyss, Huntail has a decent bulk & attack ( instead of spa for Gorebyss ) , but a mediocre speed that lets it opened for revenge kills at +2.
With the introduction of Sucker Punch in its movepool, a majority of scarfs won't be able to revenge kill Huntail, especially if they are weakened.
SmashPass isn't that effective in OU, but gets few effective receivers, such as Mega Metagross.

Overall, Huntail just got better than Gorebyss, that's why Gorebyss should go unranked.
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How can this be true? There are no tutors for Sucker Punch in ORAS, so why is that combination legal now? Am i missing something?

EDIT: yeah, i am
He gets it by level up lol
 
I'm quite unsure why people are relying on the prediction argument to justify somethings placement when these predictions go both ways with a high amount of variances. Great you hit M-Gross with Flamethrower or Thunder Wave on the switch. Fantastic you caught Heatran off guard with the oh so common Focus Blast..... What about in these scenarios when that doesn't happen? These scenarios isn't exactly unheard of either when Clefable depends on its recovery to make up for loss ground and as such paves way for opponents to just come in and destroy whatever momentum the team Clefable was situated on. So this isn't really about its versatility so to speak which no one is exactly saying it doesn't hinder itself in that department. This comes back to an issue of its potential passiveness in a metagame that punishes extreme passiveness that Clefable conveys everywhere but the mid-late game scenarios, where usually you would see it set up and potentially win games. In our current meta I really can not comfortably say that there is no opportunity cost of running Clefable and that its versatility is enough to push it to S rank.
 
I really wouldn't classify Clefable as a defensive pokemon. 90/73 defences really aren't that great for a wall.

I mean, it can switch into resisted attacks with its great typing but unresisted attacks like Lopunny's Return can do up to 40% which can't really be classified as 'eating it up.'

Clefable is a good pivot with its inability to get worn down by rocks and hazards but primarily is an amazing stallbreaker that puts great pressure to the opponent.

I still think that the overwhelming presence of M-Metagross puts Clefable in an awkward position. The main niche that Clefable has gained in ORAS is its ability to shut down M-Sableye but I don't think that is enough to put it in S rank.
 
AM said:
I'm quite unsure why people are relying on the prediction argument to justify somethings placement when these predictions go both ways with a high amount of variances. Great you hit M-Gross with Flamethrower or Thunder Wave on the switch. Fantastic you caught Heatran off guard with the oh so common Focus Blast..... What about in these scenarios when that doesn't happen? These scenarios isn't exactly unheard of either when Clefable depends on its recovery to make up for loss ground and as such paves way for opponents to just come in and destroy whatever momentum the team Clefable was situated on. So this isn't really about its versatility so to speak which no one is exactly saying it doesn't hinder itself in that department. This comes back to an issue of its potential passiveness in a metagame that punishes extreme passiveness that Clefable conveys everywhere but the mid-late game scenarios, where usually you would see it set up and potentially win games. In our current meta I really can not comfortably say that there is no opportunity cost of running Clefable and that its versatility is enough to push it to S rank.
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lmao you said the same shit when I brougt up Slowbro as a counter to Lopunny saying it just subs on the switch and then PuPs. Can't have it both ways dude. Either prediction is or isn't usable in an argument. And what are you talking about "opportunity cost?" There is zero opportunity cost in using Clefable unless I guess you're like 100% set on running Sylveon or something.

The point is that Clefable has the option to beat anything that "counters" it given the right moveset. And even if your opponent has something that checks it, who cares? Clef is a utility mon, it's not supposed to sweep the tier, it's supposed to support the team and if you have CM, be a secondary wincon. It's one of the easiest Pokemon to fit on a team and definitely one of the most valuable, which by definition makes it one of the most viable Pokemon and its rank should show that. Make it S.
 
Halcyon. said:
lmao you said the same shit when I brougt up Slowbro as a counter to Lopunny saying it just subs on the switch and then PuPs. Can't have it both ways dude. Either prediction is or isn't usable in an argument. And what are you talking about "opportunity cost?" There is zero opportunity cost in using Clefable unless I guess you're like 100% set on running Sylveon or something.

The point is that Clefable has the option to beat anything that "counters" it given the right moveset. And even if your opponent has something that checks it, who cares? Clef is a utility mon, it's not supposed to sweep the tier, it's supposed to support the team and if you have CM, be a secondary wincon. It's one of the easiest Pokemon to fit on a team and definitely one of the most valuable, which by definition makes it one of the most viable Pokemon and its rank should show that. Make it S.
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I'm just addressing my thoughts on the matter and whether you agree or disagree with me is perfectly fine. I've spoken to numerous individuals that believe it's A+ for similar reasons so no need to get all high and mighty with a snarky attitude demanding stuff to happen over a collaborative effort. It's also not just my choice alone if the others feel it's S then so be it and I will back them up on it for an accurate representation of rankings. Sure maybe I should've worded it a bit better to not contradict myself and I can accept I made a blunder there but I'm going off of what I've seen in practice as well. I'm taking your points and others into consideration without being a dick about it, I suggest you do the same.
 
Why is Mega Latias ranked so high? I've used this in quite a few matches vs legitimately good players and it hasn't done jack. It just sits there passively checking the Genies+Keldeo, but at the same time it allows Dark types and Metagross to switch in for free. I could very well use normal Latias for the same results.

Adamant Zoroark - For the record, my team with Mega Latias has both Clefable and Keldeo. And it's still not enough for Mega Latias to do its job properly.
 
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TFL said:
Why is Mega Latias ranked so high? I've used this in quite a few matches vs legitimately good players and it hasn't done jack. It just sits there passively checking the Genies+Keldeo, but at the same time it allows Dark types and Metagross to switch in for free. I could very well use normal Latias for the same results.
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Your problem sounds like you don't have the right team to check Dark-types and Mega Metagross. If you're using CM Mega Latias on your team, you will have that support. Now, it does require more support than the likes of what's in A flat, but it is at least good enough for A- because once you can safely set up (that is, once all Dark-types and Megagross are removed) it's pretty powerful. Seriously, once you have three Calm Minds or something (not hard to get) it doesn't even matter if it says "It's not very effective..." And trust me, I would not use regular Latias over Mega Latias for this.

Although, there is at least one more M-Latias set that would warrant its placement in the A ranks, one that's not so passive like unboosted CM M-Lati. I think I remember Albacore bringing up the specific set in the old thread, but I can't remember what it was. Maybe he could help us out here?
 
Adamant Zoroark said:
Your problem sounds like you don't have the right team to check Dark-types and Mega Metagross. If you're using CM Mega Latias on your team, you will have that support. Now, it does require more support than the likes of what's in A flat, but it is at least good enough for A- because once you can safely set up (that is, once all Dark-types and Megagross are removed) it's pretty powerful. Seriously, once you have three Calm Minds or something (not hard to get) it doesn't even matter if it says "It's not very effective..." And trust me, I would not use regular Latias over Mega Latias for this.

Although, there is at least one more M-Latias set that would warrant its placement in the A ranks, one that's not so passive like unboosted CM M-Lati. I think I remember Albacore bringing up the specific set in the old thread, but I can't remember what it was. Maybe he could help us out here?
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Darks and Metagross aren't hard to remove, but they aren't easy to remove either. What's luring in Bisharp and TTar anyway? Most of the time they're Psychic-types, but running a lot of Psychics just makes you even more weak to Darks and Metagross. There are ways to build around that, but that's too much support and effort for an A-rank mon.
 
Worthlessnoob said:
Darks and Metagross aren't hard to remove, but they aren't easy to remove either. What's luring in Bisharp and TTar anyway? Most of the time they're Psychic-types, but running a lot of Psychics just makes you even more weak to Darks and Metagross. There are ways to build around that, but that's too much support and effort for an A-rank mon.
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Well, if you want specific support, Unaware Clefable pretty much stomps all over any Mega Sableye, while Keldeo and Cobalion are effective checks/counters (does Bisharp run Superpower, like, ever?) to Bisharp and Tyranitar. And it's not like these are nichemons that you're using just to beat Darks. It helps that Bisharp and Tyranitar don't have reliable recovery, so removing them actually isn't that difficult. All the other Darks are more or less covered by Pokemon you're already running to beat those three. And again, I am not arguing for Mega Latias to remain in A flat; I actually argued in the old thread to have it dropped to A- because I believe that is the ideal placement for it; it requires more support and effort than what's in A-rank, but it's more effective than the B+ ranks.
 
Greninja ban came just in time for Serperior's arrival. That's one less thing that can outspeed and OHKO it.

Come to think of it, Greninja was really the only common Ice Beam user in the tier. Life is now much easier for all those 4X weak mons.
 
I think Greninja's removal greatly affects the viability and ranking of pokemon like Pidgeot, Starmie, Serperior, Tornadus-t, Raikou, Alakazam, and Dugtrio (and so on) who had "good" speed before but still missed out on being able to revenge greninja. Meanwhile megas like sceptile and beedrill were a bit more popular almost solely to outspeed that singular threat. Post-greninja the speed shifts down quite a bit, mainly to the 108-110 tier. Outspeeding that is more important and useful than ever before.
 
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