Ladder Almost Any Ability

if you want to use a powerful Boomburst run Adaptability Chatot

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 226-268 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Chatot Air Cutter vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

hell a neutral boomburst hits harder than a supereffective Air Cutter(its only Flying move after Chatter ban, it doesn't even get Air Slash). Air Cutter is basically only for Ghost types and Pokémon quad weak to Flying lol.
 
Last I saw, Chatot was actually up there on the viability for some weird reason. But Own Tempo isn't the only ability that shuts it down. There's also Shield Dust, which also grants you immunity to Scald/Lava Plume burns, and Soundproof which makes you immune to everything it does bar Heat Wave.

So you could run Perishtrapping Soundproof Azumarill and kill Chatots and quite possibly a few other things too. Just use Soundproof, Leftovers as held item, and moveset is Whirlpool/Perish Song/Filler/Filler
 
Announcement:

While only 24 hours have passed so far the support for a Chatter ban is pretty much unanimous from both the community and the council so Chatter is now banned.

In addition, Mamoswine will be retested, and will be unbanned. Similar to Chatter, the council will make the final decision but the community is encouraged to voice their opinion on the matter to possibly sway the council's opinion. The council will vote a week from now on whether or not Mamoswine is banworthy.

Tagging The Immortal to inform him of the changes.
 
Kl4ng said:
In addition, Mamoswine will be retested, and will be unbanned. Similar to Chatter, the council will make the final decision but the community is encouraged to voice their opinion on the matter to possibly sway the council's opinion. The council will vote a week from now on whether or not Mamoswine is banworthy.
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Thank heavens. As to why it shouldn't be banned, Pagoose gave a pretty good explanation here.
 
the problem with mamoswine, is its essentially bisharp that sacrifices the ability to set up, for perfect stab coverage, basically a slower terrakion with priority. mamoswine can efficiently damage stall heavily meanwhile pressuring plenty of offensive pokemon with adapt banded ice shard.

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Braviary: 336-396 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(obviously braviary doesnt run max hp, but just for "worst case scenario" point of veiw)

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 206-244 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery(again, worse case scenario,although physically defensive curselax is actually really amazing)

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 214-254 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery\

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 106-126 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery ok, intim skarm checks.

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 240-284 (57.1 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery hippo however, does not.

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 224-264 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(changed to pure electric for "delta stream")

this pokemon is basically terrak/bisharp fused togeather, getting best of both worlds (perfect stab coverage+priority) at the cost of speed/setup power. basically having the same amount of counters as terrak: 2 levidoublade and intim skarm, and that is why in my opinion it should be rebanned.
 
I don't have a lot of experience against or with Mamoswine, but think it should be unbanned!
The problem is against offense that it's too easily pressured. Pretty much everything on offense outspeed it and most things can KO it pretty easily. The only thing on offense it can beat are Electric types that aren't Thundurus with Superpower/Focus Blast, but those aren't too common. Otherwise it's weaknesses are too common and its bulk too mediocre to do much work against offensive. I realize it's still a good Pokemon and not as terrible as it sounds here, as it might still KO a Pokemon, but it's not broken. It can take a hit at times, but due to the fact it has no recovery and meh bulk, it will only take one and get only one shot. It can pressure offensive with Ice Shard, yes, but a lot of things resist it (Think Victini, Lucario), and the most common things it hits Super-Effectively are Flying types, which are usually Gale Wings and both Staraptor and Braviary have a chance to outspeed it. Also it doesn't even OHKO them with a Band, so it's basically sacrificing yourself if they don't have prior damage. Also you can't switch in, so have to be brought in using a double switch or after a kill.

Where Mamoswine shines is against stall. It does have very good STAB Coverage and Knock Off for Doublade and other Eviolite Users / Psychic and Ghost types. That said, I think Stall just has to adapt a little. It might be difficult to deal with, but honestly it's beatable. During the Weavile era I used Thick Fat Skarmory and it was pretty great at countering it, and so should it be good against Mamoswine. Now it can even run Delta Stream if it prefers Rock resistance and Electric neutrality over Fire neutrality. You might think: "But, isn't that overcentralizing?" or: "Aren't there better sets?". I don't think it's overcentralizing. It requires Stall teams to pack a specific counter, but doesn't it have to do that against all stall or wallbreakers (Think Victini, ErupTran, Tinted Lens Mons). The fact that it beats some stall mons doesn't make it broken if you teambuild well. Yes it can break Intimidate Hippowdon, but wouldn't Hippowdon be broken if it couldn't be broken? Hippowdon can even beat Mamoswine if it's dumb enough to lock itself into Icicle Crash if it takes Thick Fat itself (With which it can do amazingly against Victini too!) and Earthquake is easy to pivot out and still only does 65% maximally. Finally, some unorthodox sets with Thick Fat, Delta Stream or Levitate can do great work against Mamoswine, so I don't feel it should be banned. An example of something cool that could beat it is Levitate Infernape. It doesn't have amazing bulk, but can check a lot of Pokemon with its access to a quick WoW and Slack Off. It also requires a Choice Band to wallbreak successfully, as otherwise it just lacks the needed power to break through some walls.

I still think it's a good Pokemon. It has great stats and a good STAB combination. Access to priority is great as well, but it's not overpowered or broken and shouldn't be banned. Notice that I onlyt alked about Adaptability here. Refrigerate has similar counters but exchanges extremely strong Ground STAB for (I think, don't kill or quote me) a little stronger Ice STAB. It could also run Mold Breaker to get past its normal counters, but it's able to get beaten more easily that way due to way weaker attacks. Some other sets exist as well but are not nearly as powerful.
 
Snaquaza said:
The problem is against offense that it's too easily pressured. Pretty much everything on offense outspeed it and most things can KO it pretty easily. The only thing on offense it can beat are Electric types that aren't Thundurus with Superpower/Focus Blast, but those aren't too common.
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but...ice shard ohkos thundy. .-.

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 352-416 (117.7 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Snaquaza said:
Hippowdon can even beat Mamoswine if it's dumb enough to lock itself into Icicle Crash if it takes Thick Fat itself
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252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Hippowdon: 180-216 (42.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

where are you getting these calcs snaq :|
 
Lcass4919 said:
but...ice shard ohkos thundy. .-.

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 352-416 (117.7 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO



252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Hippowdon: 180-216 (42.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

where are you getting these calcs snaq :|
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It needs CB to guarantee a OHKO Thundurus, which is dangerous as you give things like Lucario free set-up. It also can't switch in, which was what I was trying to say. (It can switch in against Electric types that aren't Thundurus, unless I'm forgetting something important). I do acknowledge it beats Thundurus usually, it's just not fun to switch in on.

Guaranteed 3HKO = Checked by Hippo as it can outstall Icicle Crash with Slack Off (When no hazards are up). Otherwise it can pivot and take advantage of the scenario, as as I said, being forced to run a Choice Band is annoying. (Technically its a very shaky counter, but it should be used a pivot to scout which move it uses mostly and then switch to the appropriate counter. If it's LO it can be LO recoil stalled and dealt with once it's at low enough health)
 
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Snaquaza said:
It needs CB to guarantee a OHKO Thundurus, which is dangerous as you give things like Lucario free set-up. It also can't switch in, which was what I was trying to say. (It can switch in against Electric types that aren't Thundurus, unless I'm forgetting something important). I do acknowledge it beats Thundurus usually, it's just not fun to switch in on.

Guaranteed 3HKO = Checked by Hippo as it can outstall Icicle Crash with Slack Off (When no hazards are up). Otherwise it can pivot and take advantage of the scenario, as as I said, being forced to run a Choice Band is annoying.
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252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 333-395 (111.3 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 307-364 (102.6 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

it does not need choice band, or adamant. I think mamoswine is fully broken, and this is just one reason. Barring random levitate stuff, it has pretty much unbeatable coverage.

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 151-179 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

this scares me. Skarmory is the pinnacle of physical bulk, and it needs to be able to wall mamoswine for mamoswine to not be broken, and this cuts it extremely close because roosting makes him ohkoed by earthquake and stealth rock might be in play. mamoswine is broken and should be banned.

SKARMORYS PROBABLY GALE WINGS SO IT CANT ROOST AND BE SAFE FROM EQ
 
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asterat said:
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 333-395 (111.3 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 307-364 (102.6 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

it does not need choice band, or adamant. I think mamoswine is fully broken, and this is just one reason. Barring random levitate stuff, it has pretty much unbeatable coverage.

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 151-179 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

this scares me. Skarmory is the pinnacle of physical bulk, and it needs to be able to wall mamoswine for mamoswine to not be broken, and this cuts it extremely close because roosting makes him ohkoed by earthquake and stealth rock might be in play. mamoswine is broken and should be banned.
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Well okay, that's my fault for not calculating, the thing about Thundurus is fine, but it's still mostly about not switching in safely against it, which you don't refute. Against offense it's too reliant on getting a safe switchin.

About the Skarmory part, Heatran is able to 2HKO Chansey in the Sun as well with a neutral attack. It's natural that walls get broken, and on top of that 65/140 is good, but not the pinnacle of bulk. You gotta adapt to Mamoswine instead of wanting to use your old abilities on Skarmory (Flash Fire, Gale Wings) and use something that can stop Mamo (Intimidate, Delta Stream, Thick Fat). Also the point of one wall not being able to wall a Pokemon so it's broken is moot. A lot of Pokemon can beat Skarmory. I'm not saying Mamoswine is not a good Pokemon, but it's not broken. It has trouble with its speed against offense against Pokemon that are not weak to Ice Shard, as unlike Bisharp it doesn't get a STAB 80 BP priority move or a good boosting move.

Skarmory underspeeds Mamoswine, so Roosting doesn't make you get 1HKO'd by Earthquake..
 
Snaquaza said:
Well okay, that's my fault for not calculating, the thing about Thundurus is fine, but it's still mostly about not switching in safely against it, which you don't refute. Against offense it's too reliant on getting a safe switchin.

About the Skarmory part, Heatran is able to 2HKO Chansey in the Sun as well with a neutral attack. It's natural that walls get broken, and on top of that 65/140 is good, but not the pinnacle of bulk. You gotta adapt to Mamoswine instead of wanting to use your old abilities on Skarmory (Flash Fire, Gale Wings) and use something that can stop Mamo (Intimidate, Delta Stream, Thick Fat). Also the point of one wall not being able to wall a Pokemon so it's broken is moot. A lot of Pokemon can beat Skarmory. I'm not saying Mamoswine is not a good Pokemon, but it's not broken. It has trouble with its speed against offense against Pokemon that are not weak to Ice Shard, as unlike Bisharp it doesn't get a STAB 80 BP priority move or a good boosting move.

Skarmory underspeeds Mamoswine, so Roosting doesn't make you get 1HKO'd by Earthquake..
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Skarmory being breakable even on the physical side is not particularly surprising to be honest. I mean, Flash Fire Skarmory and Gale Wings Defensive Skarmory are easily broken by Tough Claws Lucario.

252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 188-224 (56.2 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Look at that power! Yet nobody's calling for Lucario to be banned.
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 166-196 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 110-130 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- approx. 97.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mamoswine Earthquake vs. Levitate Heatran: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

Levitran can switch into any non-Mold Breaker Mamoswine (Mold Breaker Mamoswine new meta?) while Heatran is guaranteed the OHKO after Stealth Rock -- and that's not even Physically defensive, and Levitate Heatran is hardly a slouch against other Pokemon. Not an argument for or against a Mamoswine ban, but if you don't want to put Doublade or Intimidate Skarm on your team to handle the thing (or you want a backup), well, there you go.

Mr155551 said:
Because Luke does have some counters same as mamo
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What counters Lucario? Yeah, any particular set has enough counters, but the things that can handle its Physical sets tend to get annihilated by its Special set, and vice versa.

I don't think Lucario should be banned, mind you -- it can be handled even if no one thing counters all the major sets -- but I'm curious as to whether there's something that no Lucario can handle.

EDIT: This is off-topic (so I didn't want to make a new post for it), but I'd like to point out that Poison Heal Curse Swampert (which Aesf mentioned in the Viability thread) is functioning as a pretty good counter to Zapdos -- it does not care at all about Electric STABs, Heat Wave, Hidden Power, or Toxic. It can't stop Zapdos from setting up whatever it needs to set up, mind you, but it does force Zapdos out to get you a free Curse.
 
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Kit Kasai said:
Mamoswine has superpower, so heatran also gets bopped :/
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Running Superpower allows other things to not get bopped though, regardless of what it replaces with Superpower. It's the same situation as with Lucario. You can't counter every Mamoswine set with a single Pokémon other than Levitate Doublade or Levitate Infernape.

Anywho, on the subject of Lucario, Hippowdon destroys even Special Lucario one-on-one, but dies horribly if it tries to switch in.
 
Lcass4919 said:
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 206-244 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery(again, worse case scenario,although physically defensive curselax is actually really amazing)

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 214-254 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery\

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 224-264 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(changed to pure electric for "delta stream")
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Snorlax:

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 206-244 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- 85.2% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
+1 0- Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 265-313 (73.8 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Suicune:

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 214-254 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 270-318 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zapdos:

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Zapdos in Strong Winds: 288-340 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 340-400 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO


Just want to point out that three of your calculations are misleading. Two check Mamo while Zapdos checks it 70% of the time. Factor in Rocks and Zapdos also checks it reliably.

Not to mention, I don't see why you're listing Hippo here. Of course Mamoswine 2HKOs it as it is weak to ice. Even Refrigerate Sneasel 2HKOs it. Or so do most ice types in the game.
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Sneasel Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 229-273 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, here's a nice counter for you:

Intimidate Mega-Slowbro:

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 96-114 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0+ SpD Mamoswine: 240-284 (66.8 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can use Slack Off to shake off any damage and you don't need to Mega Evolve immediately either. If you do,
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 112-134 (28.4 - 34%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 74-88 (18.7 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 326-386 (90.8 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
 
DarkeKnight said:
Snorlax:

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 206-244 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- 85.2% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
+1 0- Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 265-313 (73.8 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Suicune:

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 214-254 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 270-318 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zapdos:

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Zapdos in Strong Winds: 288-340 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 340-400 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO


Just want to point out that three of your calculations are misleading. Two check Mamo while Zapdos checks it 70% of the time. Factor in Rocks and Zapdos also checks it reliably.

Not to mention, I don't see why you're listing Hippo here. Of course Mamoswine 2HKOs it as it is weak to ice. Even Refrigerate Sneasel 2HKOs it. Or so do most ice types in the game.
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Sneasel Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 229-273 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, here's a nice counter for you:

Intimidate Mega-Slowbro:

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 96-114 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0+ SpD Mamoswine: 240-284 (66.8 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can use Slack Off to shake off any damage and you don't need to Mega Evolve immediately either. If you do,
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 112-134 (28.4 - 34%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 74-88 (18.7 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 326-386 (90.8 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
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i wouldnt use the term "misleading" really. i was showing that not much can switch into mamo given it picks the correct coverage move. you dont need to calc zapdos' heat wave, because it dies if it switches in. i forgot about ph cune, so enless you run adamant (iirc) he can safely protect then ko you, at the cost of a very weak suicune. i wasn't finding checks, i was trying to find counters.

in fact, in that regard, snorlax is misleading, since being at +1 is nearly impossible enless sent in first.

i listed hippowdon mainly since its perhaps one of the bulkiest physical walls in the tier with access to recovery. (barring slowbro)

and yeah, intim slowbro is perhaps one of the better counters, i forgot about....except that your calc is also misleading. considering intimidate mega slowbro is impossible, so it means plain slowbro needs to run intimidate and upon mega evo, it just needs to switch out then back in. also...earthquake>knock off on mamo vs slowbro

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. not a 2hko ill give it that, however, it pressures slowbro to remain at full hp at all times throughout the match something a wall really doesn't appriciate having to do, as losing ~20% of hp is really easy and thus, makes it a shaky counter.

also for those scared of choice band:
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
barely makes a difference.
 
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Lcass4919 said:
i wouldnt use the term "misleading" really. i was showing that not much can switch into mamo given it picks the correct coverage move. you dont need to calc zapdos' heat wave, because it dies if it switches in. i forgot about ph cune, so enless you run adamant (iirc) he can safely protect then ko you, at the cost of a very weak suicune. i wasn't finding checks, i was trying to find counters.

in fact, in that regard, snorlax is misleading, since being at +1 is nearly impossible enless sent in first.

i listed hippowdon mainly since its perhaps one of the bulkiest physical walls in the tier with access to recovery. (barring slowbro)

and yeah, intim slowbro is perhaps one of the better counters, i forgot about....except that your calc is also misleading. considering intimidate mega slowbro is impossible, so it means plain slowbro needs to run intimidate and upon mega evo, it just needs to switch out then back in. also...earthquake>knock off on mamo vs slowbro

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. not a 2hko ill give it that, however, it pressures slowbro to remain at full hp at all times throughout the match something a wall really doesn't appriciate having to do, as losing ~20% of hp is really easy and thus, makes it a shaky counter.

also for those scared of choice band:
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
barely makes a difference.
Click to expand...

By Intimidate Mega Slowbro, I meant in Mega Evolves later. Plus, it doesn't really need to mega evolve to beat Mamo.

I used +1 Snorlax because you used it in your own calculations.

> however, it pressures slowbro to remain at full hp at all times throughout the match something a wall really doesn't appriciate having to do, as losing ~20% of hp is really easy and thus, makes it a shaky counter.

As for this part specifically, I'd like to point out that most walls are going to lose HP against anything. Chansey is still going to take a chunk from Chlorotran's Eruption, it doesn't mean that it can't wall it.

On another note, what I understand from the whole topic is that Mamoswine isn't much of a problem for offense but is a problem for stall? Is that it?
 
DarkeKnight said:
By Intimidate Mega Slowbro, I meant in Mega Evolves later. Plus, it doesn't really need to mega evolve to beat Mamo.
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lol i just showed you a calc that shows it getting 3hkoed (without rocks up). explain more detail below.

DarkeKnight said:
I used +1 Snorlax because you used it in your own calculations.
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yeah, that was my own personal blunder again, i apologise. i wasn't saying "why did you calc it" i meant i miscalculated it myself.

DarkeKnight said:
> however, it pressures slowbro to remain at full hp at all times throughout the match something a wall really doesn't appriciate having to do, as losing ~20% of hp is really easy and thus, makes it a shaky counter.

As for this part specifically, I'd like to point out that most walls are going to lose HP against anything. Chansey is still going to take a chunk from Chlorotran's Eruption, it doesn't mean that it can't wall it.
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yes. however, having to constantly use slack off even when at 75% of hp is not something intimidate slowbro will enjoy doing. a counter can come in in the worst case scenario, and come up on top of the situation, a counter that can guarenteed lose simply by someone having SR and a layer of spikes on the field is not a good counter. it IS a counter, but not a GOOD one. also 20% was the bare minimum, the "low damage roll" typically on average, if mega slowbro takes ~13%(lowest possible being 6% highest possible being 20%) of damage its at risk of a 2hko. you know what inflicts 12%? stealth rock. so enless mamoswine has the absolute worst luck in the world, megabro runs the risk of a 2hko (its a bit higher for intimbro 12% being lowest, highest being 36%) thus, making it a shaky counter if it can barely switch in half the time.

DarkeKnight said:
On another note, what I understand from the whole topic is that Mamoswine isn't much of a problem for offense but is a problem for stall? Is that it?
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no. lol. its just on average, counters reside within stall, which is why its being mentioned a lot. honestly, i rarely seen mamo in actual play, (barring klang and kumi, who used it on stall and it was claiming faces left and right) allthough, from what ive seen in the meta, not many offensive mons appriciate ice shard barring the few faster pokes which resist it. and those slower simply get nuked or switch out and something dies. lol.

and before you attack me for defending stall as it seems like that is something you are about to do based on this last statement, i will have you know, that i am perhaps one of the more offensive playstyle users in our group (well, maybe pangoose idk him well enough tbh). i'm not just some stallguy who is trying to save his precious playstyle. i DO play stall, however, i'm 99% offensive in the long run. besides. i was the one who initially gave mamo a chance, so i'm not just spouting crap out of my ass just to get it gone again. that would be counterproductive.
 
Lcass4919 said:
lol i just showed you a calc that shows it getting 3hkoed (without rocks up). explain more detail below.

yes. however, having to constantly use slack off even when at 75% of hp is not something intimidate slowbro will enjoy doing. a counter can come in in the worst case scenario, and come up on top of the situation, a counter that can guarenteed lose simply by someone having SR and a layer of spikes on the field is not a good counter. it IS a counter, but not a GOOD one. also 20% was the bare minimum, the "low damage roll" typically on average, if mega slowbro takes ~13%(lowest possible being 6% highest possible being 20%) of damage its at risk of a 2hko. you know what inflicts 12%? stealth rock. so enless mamoswine has the absolute worst luck in the world, megabro runs the risk of a 2hko (its a bit higher for intimbro 12% being lowest, highest being 36%) thus, making it a shaky counter if it can barely switch in half the time.
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It is still a counter though. Before Mamoswine was banned, I used it a lot. Sure, it could kill a lot of things. But it also couldn't kill some Pokemon. I just can't seem to remember what. Also, bear in mind that all sets run Ice Shard/Crash(Or Spear)/Earthquake and another move. Sometimes its SR, sometimes its Knock Off, sometimes its Superpower or Stone Edge. Doublade counters all of its non-Knock Off sets and 2HKOs with Gyro Ball/Shadow Sneak.

Lcass4919 said:
and before you attack me for defending stall as it seems like that is something you are about to do based on this last statement, i will have you know, that i am perhaps one of the more offensive playstyle users in our group (well, maybe pangoose idk him well enough tbh). i'm not just some stallguy who is trying to save his precious playstyle. i DO play stall, however, i'm 99% offensive in the long run. besides. i was the one who initially gave mamo a chance, so i'm not just spouting crap out of my ass just to get it gone again. that would be counterproductive.
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Nah. That isn't my problem. I honestly don't care about why you're defending it. I just feel that offense teams can handle Mamoswine. Stall should be able to handle it too. I mean surely something on their team can use WoW? Or put Mamo to sleep. Or send out literally anything with a fighting type move. There are tons of checks to Mamoswine. What I'm saying is, if Mamosine poses a threat to only one type of play style, than that playstyle should just adapt to it. Now if Mamoswine was like Bisharp and could destroy pretty much anything, then sure, we could ban it. But from what I've seen, it isn't too overpowered. It doesn't have any recovery. It takes 12% from SR everytime it switches in. It's weak to fighting, fire and water all of which are very common types. It resists only poison and is immune to only electric. If it's banded, you need to be good with your predictions and with LO it dies even quicker. Anything faster than it that isn't weak to ice can do a lot of damage to it. Just because Mamoswine can take care of a bunch of A+ Pokemon doesn't mean it should be banned.
 
Mega Slowbro doesn't counter Mamo: 0 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Slowbro: 174-211 (44.1 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
And that's without Adaptability.

0 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Slowbro: 166-198 (42.1 - 50.2%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Nope. Even specially defensive M-Slowbro gets bopped.
 
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